Sarenrae in Taldor: Is she still on the outs?

[Matthew Pittard]

Hi,

Just a bit of background information.

In another thread currently running we have been talking about a possible new Taldor book and someone mentioned Sarenrae and was guessing she was now worshipped in Taldor (because the anti Sarenrae sentiment expressed in the original Taldor book is not replicated in Inner Sea Gods)

Whilst the lack of such information does not convince me that worship of her is still not tolerated there (I consider the omission of the Sarenrae reference for Taldor an error), it would be interesting to know if people think this has changed.

Golarion for me has always been a very interesting setting. From nations with constant revolutions, a Maltheist nation, a Gothic Horror part and so on. The fact that the Taldors equated Sarenrae with their bitter enemies Qadira (who still have border skirmishes) was very interesting. It also created great story points (which PFS has exploited over the years). If it has occured and Sarenrae is now back in the good books in Taldor, Ill be a little sad for setting continuity.

Does anyone else share my view?

[David Neilson]

Well honestly Taldor seems like it is a very schizophrenic nation. Also it is not like there has never been a country where a majority religion, or even large minority religion has been persecuted in real life.

[ElyasRavenwood]

Something has changed? Sarenrae is now allowed in Taldor?

I thought the outlawing of the worship of Sarenrae in Taldor added some color to the "faded" Taldor.

Oh well. I guess I'll just ignore this bit of change to the cannon in my home games.

[Alleran]

Add me to the list of those who preferred it when Sarenrae was outlawed in Taldor as opposed to now (among other retcons to deities in ISG). Especially considering the intriguing nature of the Cult of the Dawnflower and schisms in the faith. It added some interesting flavour to both Sarenrae's church and Taldor (as well as even Sarenrae herself), and it being downplayed/ret-gone-ed makes me sad.

I'll probably have to choose to ignore it for home games.

[Lazaro]

From what I'm aware Sarenrae is still on the outs in Taldor

[Jayson MF Kip]

It's Taldor. It's Golarion's 1984.

We've ALWAYS venerated Serenrae.

[magnuskn]

I am not sure what 1984 and Taldor have to do with each other. Taldor basically is Byzantium at its most corrupt.

[Jeven]

The Taldor book says her worship is only suppressed in the cities of Oppara and Zimar but its not an issue in other prefectures. The regions of Taldor seem to be pretty independent from the center and they don't always pay much heed to the capital.
Zimar is the most anti-Sarenrae as its the fortress city on the Qadiran border and was occupied by the enemy for centuries. The Sarenrites of Qadira are also the most vocal in support of another invasion of Taldor, so it makes sense that they would be distrusted.

[ElyasRavenwood]

Jevan, that would make sense, that in the capital and border strong hold, Sarenrae worship was actively discouraged, while in the hinterlands, people wouldn't care too much about what the capitol's edicts are.

["Devil's Advocate"]

While that's true, too a point, other published materials have shown that the "cult" of Sarenrae is still forbidden throughout Taldor, (on pain of death).

To me, this issue isn't so much that it's being retconned, as it's yet another conflicting view of Taldor, (presented as the truth). In the end it just shows that Taldor, at best, is boring. And at worst, is boring. Meet in the middle, and it's still boring.

[Kevin Mack]

Seem to recall James saying on his thread that it had been retconed to what was in the Inner sea gods book.

[Kevin Mack]

From said thread

James Jacobs wrote:

Yup; the ban on Sarenite worship in Taldor was always something of an unfortunate result of earlier authors and developers not understanding the implications of that; we've been rolling that back for some time.

["Devil's Advocate"]

Kevin Mack wrote:

From said thread

from James Jacobs

Yup; the ban on Sarenite worship in Taldor was always something of an unfortunate result of earlier authors and developers not understanding the implications of that; we've been rolling that back for some time.

I don't mean to speak for others, (and also realize that JJ isn't going to respond here), but for many people the ISG (and more correctly the threads that came up about this from the ISG) are the first time we had even heard about it, and have been going off of the other material that reinforced Taldor's continuing purge of Sarenrae's faithful. So what implications?

[Evil Midnight Lurker]

I think the implications are "uncomfortably reminiscent of real-world anti-Islamic bigotry."

[ZanThrax]

Given that Taldor and Qadira are set up as Byzantine and Caliphate expies, I see no reason not to have the Byzantine stand-in dislike the Caliphate stand-in's state religion. It's presented as a political beef, not a moral judgment. There's certainly never any suggestion that Sarenrae, or her followers are in any way bad or evil in the game. If anything, it makes Taldor look bad, not Sarenrae.

[Gorbacz]

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

I think the implications are "uncomfortably reminiscent of real-world anti-Islamic bigotry."

Incoming 'yet another tangent of Paizo's fanatic Northwestern progressivsm' rant ;-)

[Deadmanwalking]

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

I think the implications are "uncomfortably reminiscent of real-world anti-Islamic bigotry."

I don't think that's the motivation. James Jacobs, who is the creative director after all, just didn't like that particular creative direction. You could ask him why, I mean there's a whole thread to ask James Jacobs questions...

[Gorbacz]

I guess one factor was also that apparently it all was a J. Frost idea, and it flew out of the window together with him.

[Kyra Clone #3,785]

I was reading the Sarenrae section of Inner Sea Gods and it was talking about Sarenrae temples in Taldor, thought I was losing my mind. Especially since my cleric of Sarenrae did the Dalsine Affair scenario a while back, and the banning of Sarenrae in Taldor plays a major part in it.

I preferred it the old way.

[wakedown]

While its a decent obstacle for a Sarenite playing in Taldor, it certainly adds another layer of interest to the game.

I still haven't dug into the full extent of any "rollback" but then again I've only skimmed ISG. Can someone quote some of the sections that are effecting the majority of the retcon?

I know a decent number of Sarenrite PCs with backstories rooted in the conflict, as well as many who have active play events gained from Dalsine Affair or even some of the other PFS scenarios (the Cassomir, Oppara ones where it was adhoc roleplayed), so that I can't imagine doing any retcon to the firsthand events these PCs have experienced that has created some anti-Taldor sentiment (that had been roleplayed out somewhat brilliantly).

[rknop]

Interestingly, in The Dagger of Trust, the illegality of Sarenrae's worship in Taldor comes up. (It's a side thing for a minor character, so that wasn't a major spoiler.) That book was published at the beginning of this year (less than 6 months ago), so publication-wise, if there's been a change in the setting, it's very recent.

ISG doesn't really call out the change; it's just notably silent about Sarenrae's worship being outlawed in Taldor, and lists Taldor as a place she's worshipped a lot. Technically, it's still for the most part consistent with was was written in the Taldor book from way back when (as her worship has always been fairly widespread in Taldor, even if it was frowned upon officially and, particularly in the bigger and more Southern cities). In tone, though, it's not.

[Lord Fyre]

Gorbacz wrote:

I guess one factor was also that apparently it all was a J. Frost idea, and it flew out of the window together with him.

Not quite as quickly as that, but yeah.

[Lord Fyre]

Lord Fyre wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

I guess one factor was also that apparently it all was a J. Frost idea, and it flew out of the window together with him.

Not quite as quickly as that, but yeah.

Gorbacz wrote:

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

I think the implications are "uncomfortably reminiscent of real-world anti-Islamic bigotry."

Incoming 'yet another tangent of Paizo's fanatic Northwestern progressivism' rant ;-)

That is a wholly different problem.

[James Jacobs]

As the inventor of Sarenrae (who's been the main goddess of good in my homebrew campaign for decades now), my issue is that she's supposed to be the kindest, most friendly, most forgiving, and most open-minded of ALL the deities. That's in large part why she's the goddess of redemption, after all.

So, when you have a nation that outlaws that... a nation that outlaws the goddess of healing, honesty, and redemption... that more or less by definition turns that nation into a bad-guy nation. And that's not what I want for Taldor, any more than I want there to be a perception that Sarenrae is a warmongering goddess of warfare. She is not.

There was, alas, a fair amount of misunderstanding regarding her actual personality and role, I feel, in how things worked out with Qadira and Taldor, and the idea that there's a warmongering sect of Sarenites in Qadira is one of the reasons that Taldor outlawed the faith many years ago... all of which stem from the same freelancer misunderstanding that, alas, got into print (in large part because that was before my time as creative director, and before I had as direct control over the contents of things other than the Adventure Paths).

The more Taldor bans Sarenrae worship, in other words, the more Taldor shifts from being Neutral into being Evil, or the more we support the idea that there's a REASON a non-evil nation would want to outlaw the kindest religion.

It'll be a while, but you can expect us to continue easing the world canon in this arena back toward the initial intent in future publications. I hope some day in the future it'll be back on course. It might take an Adventure Path to resolve and explain away the thing, though.

[Lord Fyre]

James Jacobs wrote:

The more Taldor bans Sarenrae worship, in other words, the more Taldor shifts from being Neutral into being Evil, or the more we support the idea that there's a REASON a non-evil nation would want to outlaw the kindest religion.

It'll be a while, but you can expect us to continue easing the world canon in this arena back toward the initial intent in future publications. I hope some day in the future it'll be back on course. It might take an Adventure Path to resolve and explain away the thing, though.

How about an AP dealing with breaking the "heretical" (war mongering and slavery tolerating) faction that formed the legitimate cause for Taldor's hostility.

[wakedown]

James Jacobs wrote:

It might take an Adventure Path to resolve and explain away the thing, though.

The players agree! Make it so!

[Hrothdane]

Taldor AP go!

[ElyasRavenwood]

April 26 2011

On the Subject of Sarenrae

About 3 years ago I posed a question on the boards

Sarenrae and Slavery how can they co exhist?

:

“Known to her faithful as the Dawnflower, the Healing Flame, and the Everlight, Sarenrae (pronounced SAER-en-ray[1]) teaches temperance and patience in all things. Compassion and peace are her greatest virtues, and if enemies of the faith can be redeemed, they should be. Yet there are those who have no interest in redemption, who glory in slaughter and death. From the remorseless evil of the undead and fiends to the cruelties born in the hearts of mortals, Sarenrae's doctrines preach swift justice delivered by the scimitar's edge. To this end, she expects her faithful to be skilled at swordplay, both as a form of martial art promoting centering of mind and body, and so that when they do enter battle, their foes do not suffer any longer than necessary

The church of Sarenrae is mostly composed of altruistic priests who are also ready to be stern should it be warranted. The church is known for blessing crops, healing the sick, and reforming criminals and evil doers. They are often consulted to solve feuds and disputes among neighbors and family. [4] The Empire of Kelesh holds her as their patron deity and is responsible for spreading her faith throughout the Inner Sea.[6]”

Cut and pasted form the “galoriapedia.

Slavery

“ No discussion of Qadiran Trade is complete without Mentioning the buying and seling of slaves….Portions of the markets of all major cities are dedicated to the sale of sentient beings as if they were so much cattle” Page 7 of Pathfinder Companion: Qadira Gateway to the East.

Now I see a contradiction. We have Qadira whos main faith is Sarenrae, and one of her major tenents is redemption. How then can slavery be such an integral part of this society? Wouldn’t the clergy of Sarenrae try to dissuade the trafficking of sentients?

Im just curious. Perhaps there lies an answer in our own history.

What do all of you think? How can the church and faith of Sarenrae co exist with the slave trade?

April 26 2011
James Jacob's thoughtful response:

:

Sarenrae herself, and her church, does not tolerate slavery, but nor do they preach "Kill the slavers!" They would certainly look for non-violent ways to seek a slave's freedom—purchasing the slave and setting the slave free is probably the preferred method.

Now that said, there's a wide range of individual variations among the specific worshipers of Sarenrae—as with ANY religion. There are some worshipers of Sarenrae who would, perhaps, seek to simply comfort slaves if possible, espcially if they see the alternative (living on your own with no support structure in a dangerous city) is more painfula nd dangerous than slavery itself. There's ABSOLUTELY some worshipers of Sarenrae who crusade against slavery and slavers themselves and DO use violence against the slavers.

Now, as for Qadira? It's important to keep two things in mind about Sarenrae's faith being the most widespread faith in Qadira:

1) It's not in charge. The government of Qadira is richer and more powerful than the church of Sarenrae in Qadira, and as a result, the government is the one that gets to say if slaves are legal or not. The church has to either go along with that or rebel, and in Qadira's case, the church has opted to go along with it.

2) The church of Sarenrae in Qadira is NOT the most faithful of all of Sarenrae's churches. In fact, it's one of the most corrupt of her churches, because they've more or less lost sight of the "redeem your enemies" and "peace is better than war." Over the course of many generations, the church of Sarenrae in Qadira has become militarized, basically, and they're a lot more pro-war than they should be—but not SO pro-war that the chruch is in immediate danger of losing all their clerical powers. This church's tolerance of slaves in Qadira is but one of many examples of how the church is straying from Sarenrae's path. It's also why there's a schism building among the church, as a growing number of worshipers are coming to realize that things have somehow gone sour in the faith here. But an outright rebellion would tear the church apart, cause massive unrest in the faith AND in the nation, and could even start a Qadiran civil war—which is exactly the type of thing the true worshiper of Sarenrae DOESN'T want. So the actual honest worshipers of Sarenrae in Qadira are sort of caught in a terrible spot—either stand up for the actual teachings of their goddess and risk tearing their church apart, or stay quiet and risk letting the church stray that one final bit that finally forces Sarenrae to take action against the church.

All of this is set up to give a really interesting political angle to the church, honestly—it'd be super easy to just paint Sarenrae's church as a "can do no wrong" set of do-gooders, but this is, in my opinion, a far more interesting and realistic portrayal of the corruption of power. And it's got built into it the seeds of a really interesting-sounding campaign!

Mr Jacobs, do you think this situation you describe might make an interesting adventure path, one set in Qadira?

[James Jacobs]

Sarenrae is one of my favorite deities, and one that I've got a LOT of personal interest in and have, as mentioned above, spent decades doing work on. She, along with Desna, Rovagug, Abadar, Urgathoa, Zon-Kuthon, Gorum, Norgorber, and a few others have been characters near and dear to my heart for nearly 30 years. I think that an adventure path focusing on ANY of them would be great... but I think that Sarenrae's the one that has drifted the furthest from my vision and personal touch, and as such is the one I'm probably most eager to spend a lot of time exploring.

Whether or not I'll get a chance to do so soon... time will tell.

[Varisian Wanderer]

It wouldn't surprise me if Shamira instigated some of the conflict in Sarenrae's faith.

[Alleran]

James Jacobs wrote:

The more Taldor bans Sarenrae worship, in other words, the more Taldor shifts from being Neutral into being Evil, or the more we support the idea that there's a REASON a non-evil nation would want to outlaw the kindest religion.

It'll be a while, but you can expect us to continue easing the world canon in this arena back toward the initial intent in future publications. I hope some day in the future it'll be back on course. It might take an Adventure Path to resolve and explain away the thing, though.

To disagree, for me it makes the nation interesting (something it needs), not evil. It's not to my knowledge a moral problem with Sarenrae herself, who has had times in the past where she's definitely made mistakes (Mythic Realms talks about how she wiped out the city of Gormuz in a vengeful rage after her herald was killed by the residents).

Now that it's in print, retconning it away seems like a significantly less interesting path to take than picking up the many story threads that have been created from it and doing something with them (like, as you say, an AP). They've been employed fairly regularly since it was first mentioned, in PFS, modules and elsewhere, so an AP would be a logical step.

[ZanThrax]

I also thought it made Taldor a little more interesting; it gave them a clear Neutral alignment - willing to put political expediency above questions of morality. Not that that can't still be accomplished while moving away from the banning of Sarenrae. Just means we need to get that Taldor book that much more. In any event, I'd really like to see Taldor be a pragmatic nation rather than something as simple as a good guy or bad guy nation.

[DM Beckett]

ZanThrax wrote:

I'd really like to see Taldor be a pragmatic nation rather than something as simple as a good guy or bad guy nation.

Are these mutually exclusive?

[Lord Fyre]

DM Beckett wrote:

ZanThrax wrote:

I'd really like to see Taldor be a pragmatic nation rather than something as simple as a good guy or bad guy nation.

Are these mutually exclusive?

No, but it would exemplify the "True Neutral" alignment.

["Devil's Advocate"]

James Jacobs wrote:

So, when you have a nation that outlaws that... a nation that outlaws the goddess of healing, honesty, and redemption... that more or less by definition turns that nation into a bad-guy nation. And that's not what I want for Taldor, any more than I want there to be a perception that Sarenrae is a warmongering goddess of warfare. She is not.

The more Taldor bans Sarenrae worship, in other words, the more Taldor shifts from being Neutral into being Evil, or the more we support the idea that there's a REASON a non-evil nation would want to outlaw the kindest religion.

It'll be a while, but you can expect us to continue easing the world canon in this arena back toward the initial intent in future publications. I hope some day in the future it'll be back on course. It might take an Adventure Path to resolve and explain away the thing, though.

What does this mean for other nations lime Rahadoum? I know the original intent was that they where suppossed to be a nazi germany like bad guy nation, but you didnt want paladins to just be able to go in and fix things. But in the same way, others have really shifted the focus, and even made it somewhat heroic.

[Victor Zajic]

James Jacobs wrote:

Sarenrae is one of my favorite deities, and one that I've got a LOT of personal interest in and have, as mentioned above, spent decades doing work on. She, along with Desna, Rovagug, Abadar, Urgathoa, Zon-Kuthon, Gorum, Norgorber, and a few others have been characters near and dear to my heart for nearly 30 years. I think that an adventure path focusing on ANY of them would be great... but I think that Sarenrae's the one that has drifted the furthest from my vision and personal touch, and as such is the one I'm probably most eager to spend a lot of time exploring.

Whether or not I'll get a chance to do so soon... time will tell.

I think it's a very narrow view of religion to want all worshipers to follow the tennants of the faith exactly, for two reasons.

1. Real world examples. People have, over and over and over again, used the teachings of a peaceful faith to justify violence and war. It completely ruins suspension of disbelief to say that somehow Golarion doesn't suffer from this problem.

2. Alignment restrictions for worshipers in game. You don't have to be good aligned to be a cleric of Sarenrae. It's very possible to not actively promote goodness and still receive direct divine power from the goddess. And most members of a church or cult aren't even divinely empowered.

The conflict that arose from the split in the dawnflower cults, focused on Qadira and Taldor is VERY VERY interesting. People are messing up and focusing on the wrong things, and it has political implications for two major nations in Golarion. This gives worshipers of true faith to the goddess really cool opportunities for roleplaying. The church even has an entire prestige class devoted to trying to fix this problem.

Hand waving the problem away as a retcon is incredibly lazy storytelling, and honestly makes the Sarenrae faith much more boring. Infact, I can't think of any other information about the goddess that would provide enough of a hook to write an entire adventure path.

An Adventure Path focusing on healing the schism in the Dawnflower cults would be incredibly amazing. Retconning the problem away is incredibly lame. The split between the cults is firmly established in the cannon, in multiple books and adventures. This retcon is a major world change, and your customers are unhappy about it. You should listen to them.

[Victor Zajic]

Upon reading the wall of text hidden in ElyasRavenwood's post, it appears that you mostly agree with me, James Jacob, about the schism in the Dawnflower faith.

I don't understand your objection to Taldor, the country that the Militaristic cult of the Dawnflower in Qadira is supporting attacking, having anti Dawnflower laws because of that real and credibly threat.

Is it just? Probably not. But it's understandable. And it's great adventure fodder.

[ElyasRavenwood]

Mr. Jacobs,

I think, the prohibition of Sarenrae's church in Taldor, particularly since they have had to deal with religious zealots, the faith militant, is a very interesting development for Taldor. One can object to the message and reject the traditions of the organized church of a deity and yet still respect and venerate and worship the god. If they are referring to a holy text, they may be able to point out where the Church has strayed from the true message of the deity.....

I could certainly see a Taldan, having a problem with the church of the Dawn flower, and yet still be devoted to the Dawnflower herself (Sarenrae).

I can certainly see how the following of a particular faith openly could lead to prejudice and marginalization .

We have far too many examples of that in our own world to list.

Your thoughtful response to my query three years ago has made Sarenrae one of my favorite godesses, and for me the most interesting of Golarion's faiths.

Perhaps

:

after seeing how riddled the mendev crusades were by demonic influences...maybe the fiery faith militant of Sarenrae is not being supported by Sarenrae at all.....but by the Demon Lord Shax? Wouldn't that make things interesting? a story line where the PCs uncover this corruption of Sarenrae's church? What would the PCs do? I think that might be an interesting story line

Just a few thoughts. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post.

[James Jacobs]

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

So, when you have a nation that outlaws that... a nation that outlaws the goddess of healing, honesty, and redemption... that more or less by definition turns that nation into a bad-guy nation. And that's not what I want for Taldor, any more than I want there to be a perception that Sarenrae is a warmongering goddess of warfare. She is not.

The more Taldor bans Sarenrae worship, in other words, the more Taldor shifts from being Neutral into being Evil, or the more we support the idea that there's a REASON a non-evil nation would want to outlaw the kindest religion.

It'll be a while, but you can expect us to continue easing the world canon in this arena back toward the initial intent in future publications. I hope some day in the future it'll be back on course. It might take an Adventure Path to resolve and explain away the thing, though.

What does this mean for other nations lime Rahadoum? I know the original intent was that they where suppossed to be a nazi germany like bad guy nation, but you didnt want paladins to just be able to go in and fix things. But in the same way, others have really shifted the focus, and even made it somewhat heroic.

Rahadoum was never intended to be a Nazi Germany bad guy nation.

[Drock11]

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:

I think the implications are "uncomfortably reminiscent of real-world anti-Islamic bigotry."

Not that I know the innermost workings of Paizo, and I'm not saying this the reason, but I wouldn't be shocked at all if this played at least some small part of it. Yeah, I think this is just one of the problems when so much of Golarion is a virtual expy of real life countries, religion, and culture. Even if it played no part in the creative decisions what so ever it can kind of seem that way which can be almost as bad.

Before they retconned this I also wondered why Paizo, or at least Adam Daigle although I have a feeling he's not alone, seemed to be so hesitant and shied away from the colonization of Arcadia because of real world implications or it's similarity to real world history, but Paizo had no problems going there with the whole Taldor, Qadira, Sarenrae situation which is just as bad if not worse, especially at this point in time. It seems inconsistent, or at least it did until this retcon.

["Devil's Advocate"]

James Jacobs wrote:

Rahadoum was never intended to be a Nazi Germany bad guy nation.

Not trying to be a jerk or throw you unde the bus here, just trying to show you why some of the little "retcons that are not real retcons" are kind of odd to a lot of people. For a lot of us that go way back in the day with Golarion, the Taldor banning of Sarenrae is a fact of the setting, and one that has been show in various material to be one that is still very enforced and very prominent in the nation, especially in the more civilized parts. Same with Rahadoum. I can't find the post, but you literally said you modeled Rahadoum after a combo of Nazi Germany and the Scarlet Letter. This is exactly why Taldor really needs a new book. There is just way too many conflicting ideas about it (not to mention others), both in intent and published material. Again, not trying to be a jerk or throw you under the bus, just explain why people have issues with things like this.

James Jacobs wrote:

Rahadoum isn't intended to be an "enlightened atheism" at all. It's intended to be the exact opposite—a close-minded group of prejudiced antagonists. If I were to make lists of "good guy nations" and "bad guy nations" of the Inner Sea, I wouldn't think twice about putting Rahadoum on the bad guy nation list.

There's not really a land of enlightened atheism at all in the Inner Sea Region.

James Jacobs wrote:

That's actually a tough question to answer, since some of the "good" nations have some bad people, and some of the "bad" nations have some good people.

Some nations, like Cheliax, are technically evil, but they're GREAT places to set up as home nations. Others that are evil aren't so much good choices. Others that aren't technically evil, like Rahadoum, aren't so great since they make it so much more difficult for so many characters to take part.

James Jacobs wrote:

Actually... lawful neutral is my 2nd favorite bad guy alignment. (Chaotic evil is my favorite... demons are the bomb!) With lawful neutral, you can have enemies that can be legitimately non-good, but not evil, so that it really torments paladins to have to deal with them as villains. Good times.

[Haladir]

Well.. there's "bad guy nations" and "Nazi Germany bad guy nations."

A nation can certainly be the former but not the latter.

I center my home campaign in Varisia, meaning that Taldan politics doesn't come up very much. I never liked the idea of a Taldan official ban of the nicest religion in Golarion canon. That said, in the way I see it, the Sarenite faith is unpopular in Taldor due to the heretical Cult of the Dawnflower and its connection to the Caliphate... to the point where there is a strong undercurrent of anti-Sarenite sentiment. Many Taldans equate the violent heretics with the whole faith. Peace-loving Sarenites are viewed by many in Taldor as possible collaborators with the traditional enemy. And some individuals within the Taldan government exploit this anti-Sarenite sentiment for political reasons.

Sound familiar?

In other words, I treat the anti-Sarenite sentiment in Taldor not unlike the Islamophobia that's rampant in the United States. There are no laws against Sarenite worship... but if a local temple of the Dawnflower got vandalized, many a city official would just shrug his shoulders with a "Well, what did you expect?" look on his fiace.

That said, I would LOVE to see an Adventure Path about the Taldor/Qadira conflict, how the Church of Sarenrae is entwined with both, and what the Church of Sarenrae does to address the heretical Cult of the Dawnflower.

[StrangePackage]

James Jacobs wrote:

The more Taldor bans Sarenrae worship, in other words, the more Taldor shifts from being Neutral into being Evil, or the more we support the idea that there's a REASON a non-evil nation would want to outlaw the kindest religion.

Cultural misunderstanding, long-held grudges, and basic xenophobia are all perfectly justifiable reasons to have Taldor outlaw her worship. That is irrespective of the actual content or precepts of the faith.

If nothing else, it reinforces Taldor cultural identity to differentiate themselves from a foreign menace. When the US added "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, it wasn't based on an outpouring of heart-felt faith, but as a means to differentiate the Us from the Them, who at that time were the Godless Commies.

It strikes me as reasonable- even plausible- that other nations may have a similar knee-jerk reaction when confronted by an outside force which seems to have a monolithic characteristic.

[Mattastrophic]

It's also entirely possible that the spread of the church of Sarenrae actually is a Qadiran plot to conquer Taldor without going against the wishes of central leadership. It's possible that Taldor had very good reasons to institute the ban.

Anyways, we really could use a new Taldor book. Hopefully, this interesting piece of shades-of-grey canon will be either reinstituted or replaced with some other really interesting shades-of-grey aspect of the country.

-Matt really enjoyed helping out the cultists while planning how to sell them out while playing in that PFS scenario.

[Ataraxias]

StrangePackage wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

The more Taldor bans Sarenrae worship, in other words, the more Taldor shifts from being Neutral into being Evil, or the more we support the idea that there's a REASON a non-evil nation would want to outlaw the kindest religion.

Cultural misunderstanding, long-held grudges, and basic xenophobia are all perfectly justifiable reasons to have Taldor outlaw her worship. That is irrespective of the actual content or precepts of the faith.

If nothing else, it reinforces Taldor cultural identity to differentiate themselves from a foreign menace. When the US added "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, it wasn't based on an outpouring of heart-felt faith, but as a means to differentiate the Us from the Them, who at that time were the Godless Commies.

It strikes me as reasonable- even plausible- that other nations may have a similar knee-jerk reaction when confronted by an outside force which seems to have a monolithic characteristic.

That's speaking from a perspective where god is an unknown factor. We and the people of Golarion have a significantly better grasp on what Sarenrae is about than our real world gods.

[StrangePackage]

Ataraxias wrote:

StrangePackage wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

The more Taldor bans Sarenrae worship, in other words, the more Taldor shifts from being Neutral into being Evil, or the more we support the idea that there's a REASON a non-evil nation would want to outlaw the kindest religion.

Cultural misunderstanding, long-held grudges, and basic xenophobia are all perfectly justifiable reasons to have Taldor outlaw her worship. That is irrespective of the actual content or precepts of the faith.

If nothing else, it reinforces Taldor cultural identity to differentiate themselves from a foreign menace. When the US added "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, it wasn't based on an outpouring of heart-felt faith, but as a means to differentiate the Us from the Them, who at that time were the Godless Commies.

It strikes me as reasonable- even plausible- that other nations may have a similar knee-jerk reaction when confronted by an outside force which seems to have a monolithic characteristic.

That's speaking from a perspective where god is an unknown factor. We and the people of Golarion have a significantly better grasp on what Sarenrae is about than our real world gods.

Oh, I don't know that they would. First, there are quite a few people on this world- Billions, likely- who would object to the suggestion that they aren't capable of grasping their own God, or that God is an "unknown factor".

Second, say you are correct- why then would any person worship demons or evil Gods? They would have to be aware of the very real existence of eternal damnation, and that their actions would be a ticket straight that way.

It would seem that if we assume that dwarves, elves, halflings, etc. suffer from the same limitations and shortcomings that humanity does, and that their definitions of reality are based on perception, then they're no closer to understanding "The Truth" than any of us are. All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.

This brings us back to Taldor, in a way. There's no reason that banning a single Good faith (even if it is the bestest one) makes a nation evil. Banning demon worship doesn't automatically make a nation Good. Taldor has made a decision that their best interest- their way to unite as a culture against an external threat and maintain what power they still have- is to outlaw that faith. That's a function of power, not truth.

[Ataraxias]

StrangePackage wrote:

Ataraxias wrote:

StrangePackage wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

The more Taldor bans Sarenrae worship, in other words, the more Taldor shifts from being Neutral into being Evil, or the more we support the idea that there's a REASON a non-evil nation would want to outlaw the kindest religion.

Cultural misunderstanding, long-held grudges, and basic xenophobia are all perfectly justifiable reasons to have Taldor outlaw her worship. That is irrespective of the actual content or precepts of the faith.

If nothing else, it reinforces Taldor cultural identity to differentiate themselves from a foreign menace. When the US added "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, it wasn't based on an outpouring of heart-felt faith, but as a means to differentiate the Us from the Them, who at that time were the Godless Commies.

It strikes me as reasonable- even plausible- that other nations may have a similar knee-jerk reaction when confronted by an outside force which seems to have a monolithic characteristic.

That's speaking from a perspective where god is an unknown factor. We and the people of Golarion have a significantly better grasp on what Sarenrae is about than our real world gods.

Oh, I don't know that they would. First, there are quite a few people on this world- Billions, likely- who would object to the suggestion that they aren't capable of grasping their own God, or that God is an "unknown factor".

Second, say you are correct- why then would any person worship demons or evil Gods? They would have to be aware of the very real existence of eternal damnation, and that their actions would be a ticket straight that way.

It would seem that if we assume that dwarves, elves, halflings, etc. suffer from the same limitations and shortcomings that humanity does, and that their definitions of reality are based on perception, then they're no closer to understanding "The Truth" than any of us are. All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at...

I would agree with you if Augury,Divination and Commune were much higher level spells and were widely persecuted as madness and witchcraft.

Also it's motivations for evil worship have been given in various books, including the part where most don't retain any memory of the mortal existence which gives rise to a "who cares I'm not going to feel bad about it later" attitude.

[TwoWolves]

If churches didn't have to deal with splinter sects that corrupt the true nature of the faith, why is there enough demand to make an entire PC class around the Inquisitor??

[James Jacobs]

I agree that we could use a Taldor book. And I'm not the only one at Paizo who thinks so. But the timing has to be right... and the right person to write it needs to be available. Some day...

[Voadam]

In Snows of Summer (AP #67 Reign of Winter #1) the guide on the village of Heldren in Taldor on page 64 says the local temple to Erastil includes shrines to Abadar, Gozreh, Pharasma and even Sarenrae. The Erastil priest "doesn’t much care for the Taldan government’s intolerant stance on the faith of the Dawnflower, and believes that in a village like Heldren the sun goddess is as important as the god of agriculture." The fact that his wife is a Qadiran transplant and faithful sarenrite might influence his views.

That was published April 2013.