Hi there. I am fairly new to Pathfinder (13th session of playing the game, although I've played very similar games). I didn't know what I was getting into when I started, but I originally had a paladin (who died) at the beginning of the second or third gaming session. I had to quickly build something to join in the game and built a rogue based on a character concept I had in another game.
So I rushed to build a character in a game I have little experience in and am still learning. I only just recently learned about these forums and guides.
I am getting ready to level to level 6 (need to before the next session this upcoming weekend) and need some guidance.
In a nutshell, we are mainly in the wilderness in something called "Kingmaker." My character concept is a smart-alec swashbuckler (think something like Inigo Montoya from Princess Bride meets Zorro... but female). She started off as a drunk and gambler who came to the area to work off debt instead of going to a debtors prison. We are also playing mythic characters. Honestly, my character idea fits better in a city (didn't realize we'd be in the wilderness). But I adapted.
She's not only ended up being the party face, but also the baroness of the area. She tends to try to talk our way out of battles, she helps make unlikely allies for my party and my "kingdom" (think kobolds and paladins all working together), and if it comes to it, she kind of fights a little dirty if need be (and will lie in negotiations). She tends to be good at diplomacy (with rolls and role playing). She uses humor and tricks people if need be (I've kept enemies out of a fight by tricking them with lies--making the fight easier for the rest of the party). But she's kind of heart and believes in giving people second chances. But I also tend to be weak and fall quickly in battle.
Our GM is great. He always gives me good advice and I've asked him about leveling (and he's given me great ideas--like my Display of Charisma ability). He gives an honest opinion and has the mindset of we are playing together to have fun (not GM vs players). But I have so many paths to pick and I've been bugging him all week with questions, I want to give him a break. I want to make sure I remain viable to the party--and there is just so much to choose from path-wise. So I just want some additional expert opinions and ideas that way I can decide and then present what I will do to the GM.
While she has a lot of skills that help the party and she come up with creative ideas, I've noticed my character is weak in combat compared to the others and because my other character died, I am behind the rest of the group in level and weaker in general anyway. And if I (as a player) am not on my toes and think clever, my character doesn't do well. The GM has to make the encounters hard for the others, but I am so weak in combat that I fall easily if hit to much. Last fight, I got hit twice in the first round and was out the entire battle until the druid could heal me. This isn't the first time this has happened.
I like my character concept, but she's changed as she's become a baroness. I even changed my alignment to reflect how I was actually playing her (change from CG to NG). She very well could "mature" into something more than a gambling drunk avoiding prison... in fact, in a lot of ways, she has already moved away from her carefree days and more seriously into her role as ruler.
I can't decide if I should stay rogue (keep it simple, but I worry that I will stay weak)... pick up levels of fighter (toughen up a bit and maybe pick up something more interesting)... or maybe even pick up levels of bard (find strength in buffing and supporting my party in combat). Even ranger and cleric have crossed my mind. I should add my fellow players are wonderful too. The barbarian makes sure I get flanking (and if he can't help, spell casters summon for me to help me flank).
Other characters in the party include a barbarian, wizard, alchemist, and druid. We do fairly well as a group for what it's worth.
Here are my stats and basic info if it helps:
Human Rouge (swashbucker) level 5/ Trickster level 2
St: 10
Dex: 20
Con: 10
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 14
Fort: +1
Ref: +9
Will: +2
I am fortified drinker (+2 to mind effecting saves up to 1 hour after drinking).
HP: 41
Feats:
Combat Expertise
Dervish Dance (use my dex bonus to hit and for damage with scimitar)
Dodge
Improved Feint
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus Scimitar
Weapon Focus (Mythic) Scimitar
Traits
Blade Bravado
Fortified Drinker
Special Abilities
Display of Charisma (mythic power, +20 to Charisma uses 1 mythic point)
Evasion
Hard to Kill
Mythic Power
Sneak Attack
Surge
Surprise Strike
Treacherous Critical
Not sure if you need skills, but I have a lot of those. Also, I am planning on maybe taking mythic weapon with a blade (scimitar) I found. It's called "The Lonely Blade" and it has a bonus vs. fey.
Thanks!
Maybe I wrote too much and scared everyone off. So I will summarize what I am asking if it helps.
I am weak compared to the rest of the party, I want to stay viable (not looking to maximize, just be stronger). I would like to follow my basics character concept in doing so, but can change a tad to reflect character growth. Are there any recommendations for leveling? Stay a rogue... branch off into fighter or bard. I am personally torn between these three ideas. Or is there something else that I am overlooking.
I need to level by the weekend or I will be a full two levels behind the rest of the party.
Thanks again!
you are sort of running into a key issue with the rogue. In general, the rogue isnt as good in combat as most classes. Mutliclassing at this point is sort of puting a bandaid on a gaping wound, but it may be your only option. I wonder why a character death means you are lower level then the rest of the party. That seems a bit harsh. I would talk to your dm, and remind him that there is no 'catchup' method in pathfinder. Previous editions of the game had a method by which lower level characters got more xp for encounters and would eventually catch the rest of the party. Pathfinder doesnt have this. I'd ask if there was something you could do to get back on the same level as the rest of the party.
Second, Assuming you cant rebuild your character from the ground up (which is what I would do with a player in your position in my game) we need to know what materials you are permitted to help you up your character's combat abilities.
In general I wouldnt go into any casting classes, even something like the bard, at this point you would be way too split up. You want to pick something that will mesh with what you already have.
In particular, if permitted I'd take a look at the swashbuckler for them advanced class guide Playtest and the swashbuckler. Its abilities will mesh with your fighting style (dexed based dervish dance) and its charisma based. Its also a full bab d10 hit die class.
I mean honestly, if permitted I would rebuild the character as either a slayer or a swashbuckler (my usual recommendations for people who want a more combat capable rogue), but assuming thats not possible, I'd add swashbuckler levels, because it obviously fits the theme, and will add combat ability that strongly ties in with what you already have.
To improve your defence you need spells IMO - a level of bard and you can reliably use a wand of mirror image.
Offence will be a problem. Maybe focus on leadership/giving others bonuses by then taking a cavalier level and then entering the battle herald PrC? It's not the most powerful of PrC's but it seems like it might fit your character development and it's not too bad. The barbarian etc. finding you useful to give them bonuses rather than vice versa might be a nice change.
Thanks for the answers! I'll look into Cavalier as well as Slayer.
To clarify, since it was asked, the rule was if your character dies (or you want to re-roll) you have to start at the bottom of the lowest level any other character is on. I had the misfortune of dying when the lowest level character in the party was just getting ready to level. The result is I am about a full level behind everyone else.
The upside is, if I die again, I might actually be higher level than the character I have now. But I think I would lose my mythic levels completely. So it's probably best to stick with what I have.
I think just about anything is allowed except gunpowder weapons and such. A lot of what I've done/found isn't even in the core rulebook.
I'll echo what a lot of the others have said. One of the biggest drawbacks of the rogue is that it tends to be very squishy. Certainly a level in Bard would grant you access to things like Wand of Mirror Image and the like which would help, plus you could help bolster your allies as well. At this point though, if you do multiclass into a spellcasting class, I would recommend that you focus on buffing yourself and your party rather than attacking/debuffing the enemy. As was mentioned above, your caster level will be sufficiently low that your save DCs will likely be fairly easy for the enemy to meet.
That said, another option to consider is to grab a bow or crossbow. Your dex is already pretty high, so firing wouldn't be a problem. It would also allow you to stay in back once the fighting breaks out -- sure, you'll likely lose sneak attack, but you'll gain survivability. I would also look into to gathering gear that improves your defenses. An amulet of natural armor obviously comes to mind, as would rings of protection (assuming of course you do not already have these).
Its a bit of a shame that you are a rogue and not a ninja since the ninja has the vanishing trick. Although I think rogues can take ninja tricks, the problem you'll run into is that you do not have a ki pool and vanishing trick requires one. You could always ask your GM if he/she would allow it say X times per day. That obviously would help in your survivability as well.
Finally, you can always look for consumables to help you out. Potions of invisibility for instance can help you out quite a bit. The party should also be able to afford a few Wands of Cure Light Wounds (or Happy Sticks as my group calls them). At the very least the Druid should be able to use them to help keep party members (including yourself) up during combat.
As for when combat breaks out, your biggest problem (based on getting thwacked twice in the opening round) may be that as the party face, you are also the one that gets targeted when diplomacy fails. Is this correct? If not, then I would look into trying to sneak around the battlefield in the opening round(s) trying to get into an advantageous position and letting the Barbarian generate agro. One of the easiest ways to avoid dying is to simply let the enemy think somebody else is a bigger threat. Naturally, you want to be careful that you don't take too long, but there really isn't much wrong with a rogue being cautious in battle in my opinion -- especially when experience has shown you really need to be.
|
This is from my unfinished rogue guide;
Before I tell you about 5 possible routes your character could take, I'd like to mention 3 things.
First; Since you quickly put together this character, ask your GM if your rogue could be allowed to have the "Scout" Archtype or the "Slayer" Archtype, or both!
The Scout will allow you to sneak attack whenever you charge!
And the slayer will allow you to turn invisible (pick invisible... -Rogue talent).
Second; Your aim probably suck, if you got 12000gp, buy a revolver with the "Lucky" enhancement. Then pick "Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Firearms" - as your feat at level 7.
Third; If you don't want to be ranged, but you managed to replace "Uncanny Dodge" with the "Scout Archtype's" "Scout Charge", then look into these 2 feats: Sap Adept & Sap Master.
Edit... Just jump down to the final line and spare yourself some reading.
-------------------------------
Anyway...
*I'm somewhat of a math-freak, so trust my ranking system.
You're looking for combat options, so...
- You got Combat Expertise and Improved Feint.
If you wanna try to deal more sneak attack damage, then, the 5 best rogue "feat trees" available now are;
1: "Shadow Stalker Feint" - tree (costs +2 feats and will allow you to feint as a Swift action! - bet you havn't used this type of action yet!).
For +1 more feat you can get "Greater Feint" which will make sure that ALL your attacks (each round) will deal sneak attack when you feint them.
Feat tax: Blind Fight+Shadow Stalker Feint (+greater feint)
2. "False opening" - tree (costs 4 feats) This will allow you to fire sneak attack with a bow/gun against foes, if you chose to give "Attacks of Opportunity" against yourself. - avoid looking into this now...
3. Shatter Defenses - tree (costs 3feats) This will allow you to sneak attack everything that is afraid (shaken or similar). You can use this to make foes shaken by intimidating them, but it take some time doing so.
IF, you have an Allie who tend to scare your foes with intimidate or with special effects, then this is very good for you. (will only work with 1 chosen weapon).
4. Two Weapon Feint - (costs 1feat, will enable you to sneak attack if you full round attack) - Someone will advice this, this is BAD! Because you will never hit and more often die if you try this.
5. "Disengaging Shot" - tree (costs +4feats, and will allow you to hit once with your sneak attack as you move past your foe. - Avoid this!
-------------------------
Long story short; My advice is:
Transform your Rogue into a "Scout-Slayer-mix Archtype Rogue"
Level 6: Pick "Invisible" Rogue talent (from the "Slayer's" extra rogue talent list)
Level 7: Pick "Exotic weapon proficiency - Firearms", get the 12000gp Lucky Revolver! (all rogues need a bit of luck)
If you need less than 3 readthroughs to remember all this, I'm amazed!
|
|
Sap Adept + Sap Master;
Pick these 2 feats if you like raging into combat when the negotiations fall apart, (will require the "merciful" enhancement on your scimitar).
Pick the Invisibility-rogue talent if you wanna sneak and strike like a true spy or Assasin.
The gun is that little extra power all rogues needs, you'll have around 90% chance of hitting if you get a Lucky Revolver.
Ask about anything posted that you do not understand - Yet! :)
|
|
Edit…
I accidentally said "slayer" would enable you to become invisible, it's the "Ninja". Everytime i say "Slayer", i mean "Ninja". But since you have the "Swashbuckler archetype, you can't become either Ninja, or a Slayer.
But the "Scout Archtype" still works. - and it's very good!
The Scout Archtypes can be found through this link:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/coreClasses/rogue.html
The Scout archtype replaces "Uncanny Dodge" with "Scout's charge".
Also forgot to take "dodge" into consideration, so the "false opening"-tree is 1 feat cheaper and the "disengaging shot" is 1 feat cheaper.
And you have weapon focus Schimitar, so getting shatter defenses only cost you 2 feats! - quite interesting!
Shatter defenses can you read more about here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final
Questions:
I now see that you're reaching level 6 but you already have 5 levels of rogue and 2 levels of Arcane trickster. - plz explain.
And you're arcane Trickster, but do you have a spell casting class - "can you cast spells"?
Torres Glitch:
If I am not mistaken, the "Trickster" refers to the mythic path, not the Arcane Trickster.
To clarify, since it was asked, the rule was if your character dies (or you want to re-roll) you have to start at the bottom of the lowest level any other character is on. I had the misfortune of dying when the lowest level character in the party was just getting ready to level. The result is I am about a full level behind everyone else. .
This really isn't a good idea. Bring your DM here. We have found there should be no punishment for a heroic death while adventuring.
you are sort of running into a key issue with the rogue. In general, the rogue isnt as good in combat as most classes.
This.
I'm playing my first Pathfinder Rogue right now, a TWF dagger wielding halfling. I was never hoping to be the star combatant, but I wanted to be decent. I've found that my combat performance is poor to middling, depending on the encounter. If I can get sneak attack, I do ok. Otherwise it's tough. I really enjoy my rogue outside of combat, and I have looked at several options to improve it. However, multiclassing more than a level or two would probably hurt more than help. You rely a lot on your sneak attack for damage, and multiclassing more than a level or two takes away from your sneak attack progression.
As for surviving combat, try staying on the outskirts of combat, using acrobatics to move around and get into flanking to deal the finishing blow if there are a lot of enemies. You don't want to be surrounded and take attacks from multiple enemies. Feint is nice, but alone it won't allow you to take on a powerful enemy one on one.
If you have characters dying, it sounds like your group could use a more combat focused class. If that was a fluke, you could keep playing as the rogue and accept that your role in combat is to support rather than be a front-liner. You seem to be contributing well in the diplomacy portion of the campaign.
Thanks again... yes, she is a swashbuckling rogue. I planned her around a character concept and she's great for that... definitely has the most character in the group and is fun to play (if I, as the player, am playing well. If I have an off day, it's harder to play).
I actually am very good at getting sneak attacks in with not only positioning (my party is good about supporting me in this) but also with improved feint and my mythic ability "surprise strike" (which is like a free sneak attack). Plus, my display of Charisma lets me add +20 to any charisma based roll (such as bluff... to also help get sneak attacks in).
I do moderate damage, but my big problem is I fall like a sack of potatoes if hit. The barbarian in our group acts like my personal body guard though and usually draws agro for me if my silver tongue gets tarnished and we end up fighting.
And someone asked, the Trickster is the mythic path.
After reading though all this, I have a lot of thinking to do before Friday night (need to get my character leveling to my DM by then). The levels in fighter are tempting, but I I am starting to think it will do more harm than good. I might be able to make myself less easy to hit with some rogue talents (or take toughness too later on).
Thank you again! :)
If you want some rogue ideas, people had a whole bunch but together at this link
You could certainly do a swashbuckler/trickster build pretty effectively. You can always ask your GM if retraining rules are in play. Then you could retrain into swashbuckler, keeping most of the same flavor and feats.