Snowball Errata Status?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Quote:
Not sure how a not be a melee touch spell can be argued to be a bad thing for anyone but magus.

Ranged touch against always hit (ie: magic missiles) or save for half (ie: flaming hands) is a bad thing.

Quote:
What class abilities are those? do they bypass SR? do they stagger after a failed save?

Thanks for ignoring #4.

And they dont use spell slots, they are spell-like abilities.
Meaning the wizard/sorcerer could be using his spell slots for spells that dont necessarily deal damage but will put an enemy out of combat (ie: color spray, charm person, sleep, etc).


shadowkras wrote:
Quote:
Not sure how a not be a melee touch spell can be argued to be a bad thing for anyone but magus.

Ranged touch against always hit (ie: magic missiles) or save for half (ie: flaming hands) is a bad thing.

Quote:
What class abilities are those? do they bypass SR? do they stagger after a failed save?

Thanks for ignoring #4.

And they dont use spell slots, they are spell-like abilities.
Meaning the wizard/sorcerer could be using his spell slots for spells that dont necessarily deal damage but will put an enemy out of combat (ie: color spray, charm person, sleep, etc).

1) Not understanding your first argument.

2) Still not sure what abilities are you talking about. Elemental ray for sorcerer do 1d6 plus +1 for two caster levels. at 5 level that is 1d6+2 vs 5d6. At higher level that is 1d6+5 vs 5d6 plus daze.

And od not forget the rider effect. Creatures that rely on multiple natural attacks are very crippled by staggering effects.


I don't see what the big deal is about this spell, to be honest.[list]

  • It's only close range.
  • The caster needs to succeed on a ranged attack, so cover / firing into a melee / selective anti-ranged spells like Entropic Shield / Deflect Arrows would come into play here.
  • It caps at 5d6 and is one of the more common energy types for innate creature resistance (an outsider race that DOESN'T have at least cold resist 10 is fairly rare).
  • The stagger allows a Fortitude save; that makes undead and constructs immediately immune to the staggering affect with many other creature types having a good chance of immediately shrugging off the effect (which only lasts for 1 round).

    IIRC, you CAN charge when staggered, it's just at your normal move speed instead of x2 move and your weapon has to be in your hand when you start. So, yeah, this spell is fine.


  • Another point in the favor of magic missile is not only incorporeal, but that to my knowledge there is literally nothing other than the amulet of shielding or the shield spell that will ever block force damage. If you don't have that item or that spell up it doesn't matter what your saves, miss chance, AC or anything else is. At best you can sit there counterspelling.

    Force damage is literally the be all end all of bypassing resistances. Only traveling out of plane or SR will ever save you.


    jwtelesio wrote:
    I really don't see how it's that overpowered.

    If a fighter or rogue had access to snowball they'd use it almost every round they could.


    swoosh wrote:
    jwtelesio wrote:
    I really don't see how it's that overpowered.
    If a fighter or rogue had access to snowball they'd use it almost every round they could.

    Rogue? Maybe, since he could Sneak Attack with it.

    Fighter?

    Why would you do a little damage and impart the Staggered condition when you could just impart the best condition of all: Dead.


    Rynjin wrote:

    Why would you do a little damage and impart the Staggered condition when you could just impart the best condition of all: Dead.

    For the same reason Wizards cast Color Spray instead of magic missile.


    swoosh wrote:
    Rynjin wrote:

    Why would you do a little damage and impart the Staggered condition when you could just impart the best condition of all: Dead.

    For the same reason Wizards cast Color Spray instead of magic missile.

    I think its the opposite reason. Why would a wizard cast magic missile to deal damage when he can kill it and his 4 friends with color spray?


    swoosh wrote:
    Rynjin wrote:

    Why would you do a little damage and impart the Staggered condition when you could just impart the best condition of all: Dead.

    For the same reason Wizards cast Color Spray instead of magic missile.

    Hardly, taking into accont the difference in damage of a fighter vs a magic missile.


    swoosh wrote:
    Rynjin wrote:

    Why would you do a little damage and impart the Staggered condition when you could just impart the best condition of all: Dead.

    For the same reason Wizards cast Color Spray instead of magic missile.

    For all intents and purposes both Unconscious and Stunned are equivalent to Dead.


    Rynjin wrote:
    swoosh wrote:
    Rynjin wrote:

    Why would you do a little damage and impart the Staggered condition when you could just impart the best condition of all: Dead.

    For the same reason Wizards cast Color Spray instead of magic missile.
    For all intents and purposes both Unconscious and Stunned are equivalent to Dead.

    You can't coup-de-grace a stunned target, not by default anyways. Also, they're not automatically prone and helpless. Hell, some characters won't even lose that much AC to the stunned condition. Honestly, I'd MUCH prefer my character be stunned than unconscious in the middle of battle, as it means I'll probably live through it all.


    Cerberus Seven wrote:


    You can't coup-de-grace a stunned target, not by default anyways. Also, they're not automatically prone and helpless. Hell, some characters won't even lose that much AC to the stunned condition. Honestly, I'd MUCH prefer my character be stunned than unconscious in the middle of battle, as it means I'll probably live through it all.

    Stunned is still super crazy bad to get

    Dropping all items held, can't take actions, -2 to ac, lose dex to ac, +4 to cmb attempts against you is BRUTAL


    The "Can't Take Actions" part is enough to make it a death sentence.

    Sure, Stunned isn't as bad as Unconscious.

    Doesn't mean you're going to live through it if the guy who made you Stunned (or his friends) are even somewhat dangerous to you.


    CWheezy wrote:
    Cerberus Seven wrote:


    You can't coup-de-grace a stunned target, not by default anyways. Also, they're not automatically prone and helpless. Hell, some characters won't even lose that much AC to the stunned condition. Honestly, I'd MUCH prefer my character be stunned than unconscious in the middle of battle, as it means I'll probably live through it all.

    Stunned is still super crazy bad to get

    Dropping all items held, can't take actions, -2 to ac, lose dex to ac, +4 to cmb attempts against you is BRUTAL

    Oh, it's definitely one of the top 5 worst status effects that can be slapped on you. I'd still massively prefer it to being unconscious, though.

    Isn't there a status effect that makes some combat maneuvers automatically succeed against you? I thought it was stunned but a second reading says 'No'.


    MrSin wrote:
    swoosh wrote:
    Rynjin wrote:

    Why would you do a little damage and impart the Staggered condition when you could just impart the best condition of all: Dead.

    For the same reason Wizards cast Color Spray instead of magic missile.
    I think its the opposite reason. Why would a wizard cast magic missile to deal damage when he can kill it and his 4 friends with color spray?

    Because it and it's four friends aren't dumb enough to get into formation for the color spray to work.


    Quote:
    Because it and it's four friends aren't dumb enough to get into formation for the color spray to work.

    If they, somehow (prior knowledge, magically or by mind reading), know that the caster has color spray and knows what color spray can do.


    Snowball remains strong when color spray lose most of its punch. For example, against golems or the myryads of enemies inmune agaisnt mind affects.


    shadowkras wrote:
    Quote:
    Because it and it's four friends aren't dumb enough to get into formation for the color spray to work.
    If they, somehow (prior knowledge, magically or by mind reading), know that the caster has color spray and knows what color spray can do.

    Level one orcs am smart. Am put points into Knowledge(Metagame)!


    Quote:
    For example, against golems or the myryads of enemies inmune agaisnt mind affects.

    Arent golems immune to anything requiring a fort save which doesnt specifically target objects?


    PS: Web and Grease are still the best spells against golems.


    It most likely won't get an errata and that's because Paizo issues errata only when they are doing a reprint of the book and the only book outside of the pathfinder rulebooks line that ever got a 2nd printing was adventurer's armory.

    Yes i agree that the spell is a bad one from a design POV, so you can ban it in your games if you want, if you play PFS then things are harder but really how many people are going to buy the book only to get to use that one spell?


    shadowkras wrote:
    Quote:
    For example, against golems or the myryads of enemies inmune agaisnt mind affects.
    Arent golems immune to anything requiring a fort save which doesnt specifically target objects?

    Yes but the damage has no save. They would be immune to the staggered effect.


    shadowkras wrote:
    PS: Web and Grease are still the best spells against golems.

    Glitterdust, Aqueous Orb and Acid Pit are all better ways of dealing with golems.


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    Quote:
    Yes but the damage has no save. They would be immune to the staggered effect.

    Well they can take Acid Arrow damage aswell.

    Same goes for acid splash, and being a cantrip, if you manage to stuck a golem in a web, its a matter of time until you destroy it with 1d3 acid spells.

    EDIT Nevermind about Web, it doesnt work anymore (3.5 ruling) since they can simply pass a CMB check. But they still get grappled for a round, and must move at half speed to get out.


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    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

    Whenever I GM snowball is incredibly powerful - it acts as a hideous laughter on all the enemies as they laugh themselves silly at the caster.


    shadowkras wrote:
    Quote:
    For example, against golems or the myryads of enemies inmune agaisnt mind affects.
    Arent golems immune to anything requiring a fort save which doesnt specifically target objects?

    Then you add a metamagic rod of dazing and force a will save.


    MrSin wrote:
    shadowkras wrote:
    Quote:
    Because it and it's four friends aren't dumb enough to get into formation for the color spray to work.
    If they, somehow (prior knowledge, magically or by mind reading), know that the caster has color spray and knows what color spray can do.
    Level one orcs am smart. Am put points into Knowledge(Metagame)!

    Am put points into Knowledge(Local). Skinny guys not wearing armor cast spells!


    Vod Canockers wrote:
    Skinny guys not wearing armor cast spells!

    Sounds like a failed check. Then they'd never attack a commoner again!


    Or a wizard wearing mock armor


    Vod Canockers wrote:
    MrSin wrote:
    swoosh wrote:
    Rynjin wrote:

    Why would you do a little damage and impart the Staggered condition when you could just impart the best condition of all: Dead.

    For the same reason Wizards cast Color Spray instead of magic missile.
    I think its the opposite reason. Why would a wizard cast magic missile to deal damage when he can kill it and his 4 friends with color spray?
    Because it and it's four friends aren't dumb enough to get into formation for the color spray to work.

    Immediately taking out one is still better than giving it a limp wristed slap for 1d4+1.


    Quote:
    Am put points into Knowledge(Local). Skinny guys not wearing armor cast spells!

    Local doesnt give knowledge from spellcraft or arcana.

    Quote:
    Then you add a metamagic rod of dazing and force a will save.

    That is actually clever, althought it could be used with acid splash/ray of frost or acid arrow just as well.

    But i have to say it is weird that a Daze spell doesnt work because its mind-affecting, but a metamagic dazing spell would.


    shadowkras wrote:
    That is actually clever, althought it could be used with acid splash/ray of frost or acid arrow just as well.

    Acid Splash and Ray of Frost won't do.

    Dazing metamagic will cause the target to be dazed for 1 round per level of the original spell. Which is zero in your examples.

    *scnr*


    If you want to Daze using conjuration then acid arrow, ice spears, acid pit, black tentacles and hungry pit are probably your best options.


    Oops, in my head i had removed ray of frost from there. My apologies.
    But acid splash still works, it has no SR.
    You would need to also have heighten spell, but it could work.

    But yeah, acid arrow is a clear better option there.


    So it still looks like the spell, all on it's own, is on the high end of 1st level spells but not game breaking. If you decide to add on a bunch of extras then it gets to be rather powerful. That can be said for just about any spell. That's what metamagic is supposed to do.


    Well, I woudl be fine if the spell get converted to evocation and allow SR.

    Really, the flavor of conjuration is just silly, next time there woudl be a conjuration spell that let you make illusions but under the "they are not illusions, the spell only conjurate totally non magical light for your eyes"

    Shadow Lodge

    Oh no, the wizard can take a decent damage spell. You can spend a lot of feats and gear to make it scale up to do pretty OK damage. Or you can play a gunslinger and do way more. Imo snowball is where damage spells should be. Yeah, you could metamagic a snowball up to doing 60 damage. Or you could throw save or die spells. Snowball just makes damage dealing somewhat viable instead of woefully under anything else you could cast.


    I am kind of in agreement with Alexandros here.

    Overall I don't think the spell is that OP but I think the SR issue is relevant. If it did not bypass SR this spell would be pretty average.

    People talk about touch attacks and how great they are, but your 1st level caster is going to have a hard time hitting with this spell.

    I am running RotRL now and the party sorcerer figured he could use ray of frost and his elemental blasts most of the time, saving his spell slots for when it really counted. He has a DEX of 14.

    But the main enemy has been goblins, who have a touch AC of 13. Combine that with the penalty for firing into melee and for cover, he usually has to roll a 19 to hit. If he can maneuver to get a shot without cover then he still needs a 15.

    So a range: touch spell at 1st level is questionable. At a low level I'd rather have a save.

    Yes, at higher levels you will hit most of the time. But your enemy will also make that save most of the time. Most monsters have decent fort saves. Also it's pretty common for monsters to have cold resistance.

    I would be inclined to change it as Alexandros suggested, or leave it as is but have the damage scale at 1d6 + 1d6 for every two levels above 1st (max 5d6).

    Peet


    How relevant is that lack of spell resistance at low levels?


    The discussion isnt really about at lv1 or 2, but at lvs 3, 4 and 5, where the spell is actually stronger than a few damaging 2nd slot spells.

    And yes, i believe scaling it normally every 2 levels would fix it.


    I wasn't talking about level 1. I'm talking about low levels in general. Is spell resistance really that much of an issue at low levels?

    Compare snow ball to scorching ray. I would say they are about equal at 3rd level. Acid arrow does continuing damage. Flaming sphere lasts at least 3 rounds and you can control it.

    I don't see it as better than those spells.


    Bob_Loblaw wrote:
    I wasn't talking about level 1. I'm talking about low levels in general. Is spell resistance really that much of an issue at low levels?

    Not an issue at low levels, usually. SR should only show up past 5. I think a big thing is later on you can get intensify spell, and that makes the spell a 2nd level spell that scales to 10. It also has no save on the damage.


    I agree snowball is powerful for its level. I'm still throwing them around at level 12 right now, usually intensified via a rod. When it came out I found myself comparing it to shocking grasp, and how it's better in nearly every way.

    But it does have 2 (imo small) weaknesses compared to shocking grasp. First, it's a ranged touch so if you miss you loose it. You can hold a shocking grasp. Second you don't get the +3 to hit an armored opponent.

    And as a small side note cold resistance/immunity is more common than electricity, by a fair amount if I'm remembering correctly.

    I still say snowballs strengths more than make up for this though.

    At lower levels this spell is out done by colorspray, charm person, sleep, and silent image. It remains relevant a lot longer than all of those (maybe not charm if specialized and not silent image if the player is clever).


    The spell just give more options, power and versatility to the already stronger and more versatile magic shool, that is the definition of bad desing.


    Alexandros Satorum wrote:
    The spell just give more options, power and versatility to the already stronger and more versatile magic shool, that is the definition of bad desing.

    But that's the school I usually like specializing in! I really like illusions to but too many gms really don't understand how illusions work.


    Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:

    I agree snowball is powerful for its level. I'm still throwing them around at level 12 right now, usually intensified via a rod. When it came out I found myself comparing it to shocking grasp, and how it's better in nearly every way.

    But it does have 2 (imo small) weaknesses compared to shocking grasp. First, it's a ranged touch so if you miss you loose it. You can hold a shocking grasp. Second you don't get the +3 to hit an armored opponent.

    And as a small side note cold resistance/immunity is more common than electricity, by a fair amount if I'm remembering correctly.

    I still say snowballs strengths more than make up for this though.

    At lower levels this spell is out done by colorspray, charm person, sleep, and silent image. It remains relevant a lot longer than all of those (maybe not charm if specialized and not silent image if the player is clever).

    Colorspray is always relevant. Just not uber at higher levels as it only stuns 1 rd if they have 5 HD. Sleep becomes useless though.

    Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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    Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
    I really like illusions to but too many gms really don't understand how illusions work.

    Off-topic:
    Here's a possibility:

    Make a little index card or piece of paper or something, and divide it into three boxes, each labeled with a direct quote from the illusion rules:

    Box 1 is labeled with "Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory..."

    Box 2 continues with "...until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion."

    Finally, Box 3 is labeled with "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw."

    At the start of the game, smilingly introduce your PC to the GM:
    "Hi, I'm so-and-so. I'm playing an illusionist; I know everyone runs illusions a little differently, so I want to get on the same page with you before we start. Whatever you rule, my character would know that's how his spells work, so I'd like to establish a baseline from which to make my play decisions."

    Hand him/her the card.

    "Could you just write an example into each of those boxes? That way, I'll know what to aim for and what to avoid when deciding how to use my illusions, without having to constantly ask you questions because I have it right in front of me! Sound good?"

    Haven't tried this myself, but I've been tossing the idea around. If you do something like this, let me know how it's received.

    Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

    Starbuck_II wrote:
    Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:

    I agree snowball is powerful for its level. I'm still throwing them around at level 12 right now, usually intensified via a rod. When it came out I found myself comparing it to shocking grasp, and how it's better in nearly every way.

    But it does have 2 (imo small) weaknesses compared to shocking grasp. First, it's a ranged touch so if you miss you loose it. You can hold a shocking grasp. Second you don't get the +3 to hit an armored opponent.

    And as a small side note cold resistance/immunity is more common than electricity, by a fair amount if I'm remembering correctly.

    I still say snowballs strengths more than make up for this though.

    At lower levels this spell is out done by colorspray, charm person, sleep, and silent image. It remains relevant a lot longer than all of those (maybe not charm if specialized and not silent image if the player is clever).

    Colorspray is always relevant. Just not uber at higher levels as it only stuns 1 rd if they have 5 HD. Sleep becomes useless though.

    Colorspray can be incredibly good even at high levels if you have the Oracle of Heavens revelation "Awesome Display", which treats all creatures affected as if they have your Charisma bonus FEWER hit dice. I've got a Seeker-level Sorcerer/Oracle that uses it to AMAZING effect in PFS.


    cartmanbeck wrote:
    Starbuck_II wrote:
    Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:

    I agree snowball is powerful for its level. I'm still throwing them around at level 12 right now, usually intensified via a rod. When it came out I found myself comparing it to shocking grasp, and how it's better in nearly every way.

    But it does have 2 (imo small) weaknesses compared to shocking grasp. First, it's a ranged touch so if you miss you loose it. You can hold a shocking grasp. Second you don't get the +3 to hit an armored opponent.

    And as a small side note cold resistance/immunity is more common than electricity, by a fair amount if I'm remembering correctly.

    I still say snowballs strengths more than make up for this though.

    At lower levels this spell is out done by colorspray, charm person, sleep, and silent image. It remains relevant a lot longer than all of those (maybe not charm if specialized and not silent image if the player is clever).

    Colorspray is always relevant. Just not uber at higher levels as it only stuns 1 rd if they have 5 HD. Sleep becomes useless though.
    Colorspray can be incredibly good even at high levels if you have the Oracle of Heavens revelation "Awesome Display", which treats all creatures affected as if they have your Charisma bonus FEWER hit dice. I've got a Seeker-level Sorcerer/Oracle that uses it to AMAZING effect in PFS.

    I'm aware, I play one in society, I was just trying to leave out corner cases.

    Jiggy - Good idea. The same oracle as I just mentioned above is a heavens/veiled illusionist, and I have had some problems with him at tables.


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    I have only seen one person run snowball, but he missed all the time with it. Yes it was nice when it worked as planned, but I would say that was less than 25% of the time. However, I can see how it could be a cheap, strong skeleton to build into a stronger spell effect at higher levels.

    Illusion derail

    Spoiler:
    I found that pointing out that getting to make a save against an illusion on sight will run a person 12k. That has always returned their functionality for me in the past.

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