Can anyone explain to me, flavor or balance wise, why scimitar is one the Druid weapon list?
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2h9d4?Why-do-druids-use-scimitars
So, the main reason is a hold over from poorly thought out Gygaxian silliness from 1st ed?
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So, the main reason is a hold over from poorly thought out Gygaxian silliness from 1st ed?
You hold your tongue, sir!
So, the main reason is a hold over from poorly thought out Gygaxian silliness from 1st ed?
Yes, as are sadly many things still in the game.
So, the main reason is a hold over from poorly thought out Gygaxian silliness from 1st ed?Yes, as are sadly many things still in the game.
And that's the dnd that you play!
Yeah, pretty much. There are quiet a few sacred cash cows. I mean err... cows. These arbitrary ideas are held to this day regardless of want or reason and rarely with explanation. If I had to guess its because scimitars and sickles are akin' to farming tools of a sort.
I've always thought it odd that a druid would use any kind of metal in their weapons with the exception maybe of a hunting knife or a spear, and maybe a creature's spines for arrow-tips.
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I've always thought it odd that a druid would use any kind of metal in their weapons with the exception maybe of a hunting knife or a spear, and maybe a creature's spines for arrow-tips.
I've always thought it odd that druids had a restriction on metal, considering that it's completely natural.
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Just like how it's strange that Druids can't use a hand axe. Try cutting through medium to large sized branches with a hand scythe it's not going to work very well.
Its probably the way of thinking that the Handaxe weapon and the Hand Axe tool are two different things. Same thing about how commoners can't use Scythes and Scythes cost a lot, because the War Scythe and the harvesting scythe are different, and the Heavy Pick isn't a usable weapon for all miners.
I've always thought it odd that a druid would use any kind of metal in their weapons with the exception maybe of a hunting knife or a spear, and maybe a creature's spines for arrow-tips.I've always thought it odd that druids had a restriction on metal, considering that it's completely natural.
That's got to be the weirdest part imo. Plenty of metals and forms of rock or crystal are naturally recurring. I could understand not wearing bronze or steel, but not iron or copper or gold? But killing an animal and wearing its hide, that's cool. Or warping wood. Even weirder for something like a dwarven druid imo.
Just like how it's strange that Druids can't use a hand axe. Try cutting through medium to large sized branches with a hand scythe it's not going to work very well.Its probably the way of thinking that the Handaxe weapon and the Hand Axe tool are two different things. Same thing about how commoners can't use Scythes and Scythes cost a lot, because the War Scythe and the harvesting scythe are different, and the Heavy Pick isn't a usable weapon for all miners.
Trees (usually) don't dodge. Neither does wheat and other crops. So who cares about that -4 to hit? You can use the items as tools without being trained in how to smack someone in the head with them.
Plus, the picks are probably not pickaxes, but war picks, which are totally things as well. With those, they are literally designed to basically work as canopeners, rather than as tools to break apart rock.
The 'no metal armor' thing comes from association with the fey mythology. Of particular note in that line of thought is that 'cold iron' was rather poorly defined, and as such could just be normal metal. Ergo, a dislike for metal in general and not just the mechanical 'cold iron' we see in game.
How weapons are different is...eh. I suppose that, if I had to BS, I'd say that weapons typically have handles and shafts to prevent direct contact with metal. But most metal armors had some form of padding... I could also bull by saying that armor is in direct contact for a lot longer, and covers more of the body. Thus, it would cause more 'interference' or whatever. You could also add something about 'not feeling nature' when you are in a tin can, if you were really determined. I mean, I doubt heavy leather is much better....
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Just like how it's strange that Druids can't use a hand axe. Try cutting through medium to large sized branches with a hand scythe it's not going to work very well.Its probably the way of thinking that the Handaxe weapon and the Hand Axe tool are two different things. Same thing about how commoners can't use Scythes and Scythes cost a lot, because the War Scythe and the harvesting scythe are different, and the Heavy Pick isn't a usable weapon for all miners.Trees (usually) don't dodge. Neither does wheat and other crops. So who cares about that -4 to hit? You can use the items as tools without being trained in how to smack someone in the head with them.
Plus, the picks are probably not pickaxes, but war picks, which are totally things as well. With those, they are literally designed to basically work as canopeners, rather than as tools to break apart rock.
The 'no metal armor' thing comes from association with the fey mythology. Of particular note in that line of thought is that 'cold iron' was rather poorly defined, and as such could just be normal metal. Ergo, a dislike for metal in general and not just the mechanical 'cold iron' we see in game.
How weapons are different is...eh. I suppose that, if I had to BS, I'd say that weapons typically have handles and shafts to prevent direct contact with metal. But most metal armors had some form of padding... I could also bull by saying that armor is in direct contact for a lot longer, and covers more of the body. Thus, it would cause more 'interference' or whatever. You could also add something about 'not feeling nature' when you are in a tin can, if you were really determined. I mean, I doubt heavy leather is much better....
Kinda what I was getting at. Besides, if you use a crop scythe to fight, or a war scythe to harvest grain, you will have some severe difficulty. The blades are in a different orientation and often the war scythe blade will probably be fixed to the shaft more firmly. Same with a War Pick.
For explaining the armor, I would probably say that although a weapon is made of metal and is fine but armor isn't, I'd say that the surface area the armor has would mess up your magical abilities because it creates interference or completely blocks it from large portions of your body, meanwhile weapons will rarely cover nearly as much of your body. Sorta like trying to use a Universal Remote Control to turn off your TV from behind a lead wall. Or I would take the limitation away in a homegame, because metal is a natural resource as much as bone and hide is, it just needs to be harvested properly.
Well, outside of the stone plate designed by dwarven druids, I have not really even seen much mention of druids wearing anything that wasn't made from organic materials.
If it was just that then sure, fine. Organic materials. Easily enough to work with thematically. I mean, I may like elementals personally, but most people just go for some variety of animal form with wildshape. Some 'flesh for flesh' thing would have worked, with large amounts of inorganic materials messing with wildshape and such. But noooo... we had to have stone plate.
Yeah, we should totally take away the only melee weapon on the Druid list worth swinging-- make sure they know they are only ever supposed to be meleeing while wild shaped and should cast spells in ever other situation!
Lets take aways Elves getting long sword and long bows too, because-- if it started in an old edition it must be bad and we need to smash all the sacred cows till the game isn't recognizable anymore.
But seriously, Scimitar is on the Druid list so that Druid's can do something before level 5 in order to get to the place where their real powers start.
Me, I just have the druids in my homebrew use weapons made from natural materials- stone, bone, wood and certain magical plants that create deadly weapons.
Druids Ive seen always strive to use scimitars made out of Cold Iron.
That's got to be the weirdest part imo. Plenty of metals and forms of rock or crystal are naturally recurring. I could understand not wearing bronze or steel, but not iron or copper or gold? But killing an animal and wearing its hide, that's cool. Or warping wood. Even weirder for something like a dwarven druid imo.I've always thought it odd that a druid would use any kind of metal in their weapons with the exception maybe of a hunting knife or a spear, and maybe a creature's spines for arrow-tips.I've always thought it odd that druids had a restriction on metal, considering that it's completely natural.
Meh...I'd always had in my mind the tearing great lumps out of Mother Earth and deforesting areas for smelting as the reason behind the "no metal" thing... Bog Iron through is something different and goes some small way to explain the scimitar thing.
Mechanically, I'd imagine that the limit on metal armors is a balance thing. Typically, nonmetal armors are just 'worse', particularly in the AC department. With the bonuses to natural armor they get from wild shape, it is not hard to get the equivalent to full plate with medium barding/wild enhanced armor.
Sure, you COULD get dragonhide...but, assuming that dragon hide is not something you just find in any old normal armor store, and that you have to get the material yourself... well:
By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller.
While the sizes vs. given AC are a bit wonky, you are still looking at at least a huge dragon here for a medium character, unless I am missing something (And this is assuming that you throw the wild enhancement on top so it can be used in wildshape without you tackling an even bigger beast). Fighting something like that sounds like a quest in and of itself for quite a while. If you get something good from such a venture...well, good for you.
But this is just working under my assumption that getting the items you want is a bit unreliable. From the way I hear people talking on these boards, you always get item X of +Y by level Z. I mean, sure, it would be easy to get wild enhancement if you have a crafter in the party (which is hardly a given, depending on the table), but that doesn't mean all other resources are readily available.
Meh...I'd always had in my mind the tearing great lumps out of Mother Earth and deforesting areas for smelting as the reason behind the "no metal" thing... Bog Iron through is something different and goes some small way to explain the scimitar thing.
And killing animals just to make armor out of 'em is better? Better to use unliving metal than have to kill something that will actually, y'know, feel pain and die.
And killing animals just to make armor out of 'em is better? Better to use unliving metal than have to kill something that will actually, y'know, feel pain and die.Meh...I'd always had in my mind the tearing great lumps out of Mother Earth and deforesting areas for smelting as the reason behind the "no metal" thing... Bog Iron through is something different and goes some small way to explain the scimitar thing.
Neutral evil is a valid alignment for druids. They can totally enjoy seeing things suffer. Protecting nature could be easily made into a territorial thing.
"You loggers think you can come into my forest, take my trees, pollute my air with your darn factory smoke, and even hunt my prey? Well, here's the news little morsel...you are the prey now. Do try to give an enjoyable chase. I like to get a bit of exercise before my meals."
Plus, if a less....brutal... druid eats an animal, why wouldn't they want to use every part so the death would go to waste?
I can't say I'd advocate druids, for reasons of moral purity, refusing to use armor or weapons at all.
On the other hand, they're one of the only classes that might be able to get along without 'em. I mean, you have an animal bodyguard, you summon elementals, you can turn into a baboon and bite somebody's face off. How much do you really need hide armor?
On the other hand they're the only ones with such a ridiculous looking restriction on armor and weapons and its based of someone else's ideas on what a druid should be rather than your own. This isn't your game, its someone else's they were nice enough to sell to you. How kind of them. How very sweet. No instructions on making it your own of course.
I'd appreciate hide armor on my druid personally. Armor goes a long way to protect yourself! Even mages get armor. They can't even use the armor when they wild shape anyway, outside of the wild armor quality or a GM who lets you wear armor while an elemental or something similar. Similarly, I'd appreciate a weapon. Hard to kill people without one. Heck, even wizards get crossbows.
I'd appreciate hide armor on my druid personally. Armor goes a long way to protect yourself! Even mages get armor. They can't even use the armor when they wild shape anyway, outside of the wild armor quality or a GM who lets you wear armor while an elemental or something similar. Similarly, I'd appreciate a weapon. Hard to kill people without one. Heck, even wizards get crossbows.
....what, you mean you WOULDN'T turn into a velociraptor 24/7 as soon as possible? I mean, it solves so many problems, since you can just get armor fitted for that form instead. Alternatively allosaurs serve well if the doorways are often big enough.
(I know, velociraptor are the turkey sized ones; but you know I mean Jurassic Park)
In all honesty, I like the idea of a druid that turns into a large earth elemental and just stays there. Based upon various bits of circumstantial evidence (there are few codified rules about 'shape' surprisingly; still enough is there with the elemental subtype that you can make a good argument, as well as with their reach in the bestiary entry matching the 'tall' type), you could easily got around in large leather carrying a large scimitar, enjoying your large sized reach.
In all honesty, I like the idea of a druid that turns into a large earth elemental and just stays there. Based upon various bits of circumstantial evidence (there are few codified rules about 'shape' surprisingly; still enough is there with the elemental subtype that you can make a good argument, as well as with their reach in the bestiary entry matching the 'tall' type), you could easily got around in large leather carrying a large scimitar, enjoying your large sized reach.
Actually my dream druid just becomes more elemental or beastial as he progresses through the level without having to stick around in some form of some sort with a time limit and x/day attached. Big fan of things being balanced around happening all day and everyone getting their own flavor and way of working.
Of course my druids aren't the druids we have... and I've met a few people who just stick around in a form all day. Played a druid who was in his dog form most of the day. Was kind of fun, bit awkward with social situations or when the gnome tried to use me as a mount when his feet were tired. My last druid used dragonscale and scimitar and shield to appear really knightly instead of some weird guy running around in hide.
Whatever happened to scimitars anyway? Are we still talking about those?
Actually my dream druid just becomes more elemental or beastial as he progresses through the level without having to stick around in some form of some sort with a time limit and x/day attached. Big fan of things being balanced around happening all day and everyone getting their own flavor and way of working.
Oh, I know the feeling. The character I was thinking of would turn wildshape into "earth shape". And heck, it would drop the animal companion to get the (good) cave domain, so he could use tremor sense, and thus actually see while earthgliding. From there, he would just BE a tall and mighty elemental with druid magic.
Admittedly, this idea only comes on at level 10. Well, technically level 8 with medium earth elementals and enough wildshape use/hours to last all day. But being large is a big part of this, since it carries something of a classical Greek flair for the mythical.
Side note: Does anyone know where the idea that 'you can't take equipment with you while earthgliding' comes from? I've looked over the universal monster rules, the earth elemental stat block, elemental body, and the countless abilities of other classes with earthglide (several of which would enjoy armor and weapons), and none of them say anything of the sort. But every time the question comes up in the rules forum, I see several people saying you can't take it with you. Other than the peculiarities of wildshaping when you aren't one form all day, I can't find anything that gives this impression. And to tie this back to the main topic-once you dispel the confusion around earth glide and equipment, earth elementals would make a perfect form to utilize scimitars as an armored melee type, due mainly to their focus on strength, constitution, and natural armor boosts.
Side note: Does anyone know where the idea that 'you can't take equipment with you while earthgliding' comes from?
People who aren't worried about pantslessness, if I had to guess.
Pants? Another foolish Gygaxian addition that adds nothing to the game! ;)
Actually... when you think about it, its probably a problem we don't have pants in the game. No stats for magic pants or even just buying pants! The world of Golarion is pantless! We have vest and belts and hats and shoes, but when was the last time you heard of an important pair of pants?
As the first "specialty priest" described in D&D, their weapon selection, armor restriction, spell list and granted powers set them apart from the default cleric (bludgeoning weapons only, metal armor, strong curing/restorative magic, turn undead). The scimitar was a good edged weapon that seemed to fit the theme (curved like a claw or crescent moon) that was being created.
Pants? Another foolish Gygaxian addition that adds nothing to the game! ;)Actually... when you think about it, its probably a problem we don't have pants in the game. No stats for magic pants or even just buying pants! The world of Golarion is pantless! We have vest and belts and hats and shoes, but when was the last time you heard of an important pair of pants?
Via a search, the only mention of pants in a magical item was with the 'Habit of the Winter Explorer'. They did not do anything specific....but they did have to be worn for the magic to work.
Because the pants are the piece between the hood (which grants something akin to darkvision vs. snow blindness and cool magical eye color) and the boots, (which are likely the source for the +4 stealth in cold weather), I am going to say that the pants are in fact the source of the magic, and the rest of the outfit are merely tools for using that magic.
Pants, Magic Pants?
-- Apologies to David Bowie