Either things changed since the class was created or it wasn't thought through, imo.
Rapid shot and multishot can't be used with flurry but can only be used with full attack. Why the heck were these put on the monk bonus feat list since the zen archer essentially can't use? A much better option would be to add snapshot and improved snapshot since the monk could use those without having to take the feats he can't use. The level 9 ability is essentially snap shot anyway.
Also, the ki strike abilities are still left on the unarmed attack. Shouldn't the monk be able to use through bow instead?
No, Thomas Long. The Zen Archer's description specifically calls out that you cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot.
The Haste and Spell Combat issue was a very different issue, initially the developers were worried that allowing haste to function with Spell Combat (effectively allowing 2 extra attacks when using Spell Strike to deliver touch spells) was too powerful. They eventually changed their mind because it didn't make sense or fit with how the ability functioned in comparison with other full round abilities.
They are available as bonus feats because you may decide that you would like to only dip zen archer which will allow you to gain a lot of extra archery feats.
Also, to enable you to take them to use as per-requisites for other feats.
The reason they are on the list is nothing requires you stay zen archer. If the plan is to multiclass rapid shot and multishot may be good options.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The reason they are on the list is nothing requires you stay zen archer. If the plan is to multiclass rapid shot and multishot may be good options.
My Zen Archer had 4 levels of Monk and everything else Fighter and I never flurry his whole life. I did Rapid Shot/Many Shot a lot tho.
In short: Those feats are options that can be useful for some builds/situations. What would be gained by removing them from the list?
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The reason they are on the list is nothing requires you stay zen archer. If the plan is to multiclass rapid shot and multishot may be good options.My Zen Archer had 4 levels of Monk and everything else Fighter and I never flurry his whole life. I did Rapid Shot/Many Shot a lot tho.
sohei would have been a much better choice for this character.
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Why not? Sohei gets weapon training at level 6 that allows him to flurry with a bow (and can stack rapid/many shot on top of that flurry unlike the zen archer). For two more monk levels you're getting weapon training three levels earlier than you would with multiclass fighter, and two more attacks when you full attack.sohei would have been a much better choice for this character.Not in the least, nothing I could get from Sohei would be interesting, useful or beneficial to that character. ;-)
you completely forgot the ability to go first on basically every surprise round you dont roll a one. and that feat that lets you get a full attack when you can act in surprise, knocking your DPR through the roof.
you completely forgot the ability to go first on basically every surprise round you dont roll a one. and that feat that lets you get a full attack when you can act in surprise, knocking your DPR through the roof.Why not? Sohei gets weapon training at level 6 that allows him to flurry with a bow (and can stack rapid/many shot on top of that flurry unlike the zen archer). For two more monk levels you're getting weapon training three levels earlier than you would with multiclass fighter, and two more attacks when you full attack.sohei would have been a much better choice for this character.Not in the least, nothing I could get from Sohei would be interesting, useful or beneficial to that character. ;-)
So, if you want to be a crappy archer for 5 levels, then great, take Sohei? Min/Max-wise you should zen until level 5 then retrain at level 6 into Sohei?
Is there something wrong with the rules structures on these archetypes?
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So, if you want to be a crappy archer for 5 levels, then great, take Sohei? Min/Max-wise you should zen until level 5 then retrain at level 6 into Sohei?
Is there something wrong with the rules structures on these archetypes?
how did you arrive at the conclusion that you are a crappy archer until 5th?
So, if you want to be a crappy archer for 5 levels, then great, take Sohei? Min/Max-wise you should zen until level 5 then retrain at level 6 into Sohei?
Is there something wrong with the rules structures on these archetypes?
how did you arrive at the conclusion that you are a crappy archer until 5th?
Just assuming from the fact that they can't flurry with a bow, so get a lower BAB progression with it, and so make a sub-par archer until they can use full BAB with a bow. I'm not saying they don't fulfill the design of the archetype until then, but that's not a devoted archer. During those 5 levels a fighter or ranger is much better (and isn't as MAD). Am I missing something?
Why not? Sohei gets weapon training at level 6 that allows him to flurry with a bow (and can stack rapid/many shot on top of that flurry unlike the zen archer). For two more monk levels you're getting weapon training three levels earlier than you would with multiclass fighter, and two more attacks when you full attack.sohei would have been a much better choice for this character.Not in the least, nothing I could get from Sohei would be interesting, useful or beneficial to that character. ;-)
Not to mention the Sohei can wear light armor and still flurry.
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Just assuming from the fact that they can't flurry with a bow, so get a lower BAB progression with it, and so make a sub-par archer until they can use full BAB with a bow. I'm not saying they don't fulfill the design of the archetype until then, but that's not a devoted archer. During those 5 levels a fighter or ranger is much better (and isn't as MAD). Am I missing something?So, if you want to be a crappy archer for 5 levels, then great, take Sohei? Min/Max-wise you should zen until level 5 then retrain at level 6 into Sohei?
Is there something wrong with the rules structures on these archetypes?
how did you arrive at the conclusion that you are a crappy archer until 5th?
quite a bit actually.
yeah you lose out on 2 points of bab, until you get to flurry with your bow, but you gain:
*initiative bonus, and auto acting in surprise round.
*free access to any mounter archery feat with no prereq's (not that great in dungeon delvs, but amazing in some games)
*light armor proficiency, which does 3 things... first flurry with brawling enchant, what monk/fighter doesn't want that? second SAD stats, no need for wisdom, only dex con and str as stats, which would synergizes with fighter very well. third ability to have energy resistance in the late game.
*ability to use your ki pool to boost your to hit on high AC targets.
only thing zen archer gets at low levels that makes it better then a sohei is the feat choices for free bonus feats, but since hes going with fighter anyway those choices become mute since they have equally good function from the sohei class features.
a human sohei can have point blank and rapid shot at 1st level, or be a functional switch hitter using melee and point blank + precise shot, while having a higher ac by a wide wide margin. a 3rd level sohei can have a mithril buckler, chain shirt, dodge, and a +4 dex ac of 20 versus a zenarchers what 16 (18 if you really minmax and ruin your damage ability)?
lets not forget that you have to use dex (which is lower then wisdom) until 3rd level. sohei gets his primary stat to attack from level 1.
I don't see why you would be a crappy archer for the first five levels. You're proficient with light armor and bows, just play as a normal archer until 6, picking up rapid shot and such, then drop the armor for two more attacks at 6. You are behind up to +2 to hit from BAB compared to a full martial character pre six, and the zen archer is getting his second attack two levels earlier, but it's not an insurmountable penalty.you completely forgot the ability to go first on basically every surprise round you dont roll a one. and that feat that lets you get a full attack when you can act in surprise, knocking your DPR through the roof.Why not? Sohei gets weapon training at level 6 that allows him to flurry with a bow (and can stack rapid/many shot on top of that flurry unlike the zen archer). For two more monk levels you're getting weapon training three levels earlier than you would with multiclass fighter, and two more attacks when you full attack.sohei would have been a much better choice for this character.Not in the least, nothing I could get from Sohei would be interesting, useful or beneficial to that character. ;-)
So, if you want to be a crappy archer for 5 levels, then great, take Sohei? Min/Max-wise you should zen until level 5 then retrain at level 6 into Sohei?
Is there something wrong with the rules structures on these archetypes?
And a few feats behind even a Zen archer (much less many behind a fighter or ranger).
Just assuming from the fact that they can't flurry with a bow, so get a lower BAB progression with it, and so make a sub-par archer until they can use full BAB with a bow. I'm not saying they don't fulfill the design of the archetype until then, but that's not a devoted archer. During those 5 levels a fighter or ranger is much better (and isn't as MAD). Am I missing something?So, if you want to be a crappy archer for 5 levels, then great, take Sohei? Min/Max-wise you should zen until level 5 then retrain at level 6 into Sohei?
Is there something wrong with the rules structures on these archetypes?
how did you arrive at the conclusion that you are a crappy archer until 5th?
quite a bit actually.
yeah you lose out on 2 points of bab, until you get to flurry with your bow, but you gain:
*initiative bonus, and auto acting in surprise round.
*free access to any mounter archery feat with no prereq's (not that great in dungeon delvs, but amazing in some games)
*light armor proficiency, which does 3 things... first flurry with brawling enchant, what monk/fighter doesn't want that? second SAD stats, no need for wisdom, only dex con and str as stats, which would synergizes with fighter very well. third ability to have energy resistance in the late game.
*ability to use your ki pool to boost your to hit on high AC targets.only thing zen archer gets at low levels that makes it better then a sohei is the feat choices for free bonus feats, but since hes going with fighter anyway those choices become mute since they have equally good function from the sohei class features.
a human sohei can have point blank and rapid shot at 1st level, or be a functional switch hitter using melee and point blank + precise shot, while having a higher ac by a wide wide margin. a 3rd level sohei can have a mithril buckler, chain shirt, dodge, and a +4 dex ac of 20 versus a zenarchers what 16 (18 if you really minmax...
All nice, but only one actually compensates you really for being a crappy archer, and the one archery-synergistic ability is 4 levels in. A zen archer (which is poorly designed, as I see it) at least keeps pace with a low level ranger in archery output (and defenses, generally). STR is as important for zen archers as wis is for sohei.
If you're going to make assumptions and hand out items liberally, you probably should make apples to apples comparisons, too.
I'm still not convinced the best path is not 5 levels of Zen then retrain to Sohei at level 6.
Design Manager
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Just going to chime in and note that the expanded array of weapon proficiencies and mounted combat facility all play in to the Sohei's comparative power. Archery is good because you get more full attacks. Mounted archery is better because you can full attack while moving without expending a single feat or taking a single penalty. The Sohei also has more viable options in the event that the encounter makes archery a suboptimal choice since he can use all martial weapons.
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All nice, but only one actually compensates you really for being a crappy archer, and the one archery-synergistic ability is 4 levels in. A zen archer (which is poorly designed, as I see it) at least keeps pace with a low level ranger in archery output (and defenses, generally). STR is as important for zen archers as wis is for sohei.
If you're going to make assumptions and hand out items liberally, you probably should make apples to apples comparisons, too.
I'm still not convinced the best path is not 5 levels of Zen then retrain to Sohei at level 6.
... poor argument is poor.
strength is much more valuable to a zen archer then wisdom is to a sohei. extra damage is a necessity for archery to be effective.
a 3rd level armorless monk wont have much more then a ring of protection AT BEST while a sohei will have 4+ more AC without any magic at all. assuming your character will have WBL isnt much of an assumption.
whether or not you're convinced is irrelevant. a -1 to hit for 4 levels is nothing in comparison to what you gain by going sohei. not to mention that -1 is negated by the need to use a secondary stat to hit with for the first 2 levels as a zen archer.
going in surprise round and an initiative bonus alone makes the sohei a better archer at low levels.
Just going to chime in and note that the expanded array of weapon proficiencies and mounted combat facility all play in to the Sohei's comparative power. Archery is good because you get more full attacks. Mounted archery is better because you can full attack while moving without expending a single feat or taking a single penalty. The Sohei also has more viable options in the event that the encounter makes archery a suboptimal choice since he can use all martial weapons.
I don't understand how this bears on whether they're a viable archer prior to level 6? Anyone can take mounted combat feats and gain those abilities (even Zen archers). I agree they're a much better melee combatant as a fallback (but still worse than a fighter/archer in melee) than a zen archer.
Spending 5/20 levels being poor at your specialty (in exchange for being uber-awesome at it after) is what puzzles me.
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Sohei gets:
Mounted Combat feats
Better initiative
Light Armor
Mount buff
weapon training
Nice, but that's a drop of water in a bucket to help a feat demanding combat style. Let's look at the Zen Archer:
Zen Archer:
Wisdom to AC (Sohei don't get AC from wisdom when they wear armor)
Essentially free rapid shot, many shot, and better than anything else shot (FOB with a bow)
Archery Feats, including the very important Improved precise shot at level 6, which the sohei can't get until level 15!
Free weapon focus and specialization
Perfect Strike with a bow
Point Blank Master at level 3 (Sohei can never get this)
Wisdom to hit with a bow (reducing the MAD syndrome the monk already has)
So, yeah, Zen Archers make better archers than a sohei, by far.
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I don't understand how this bears on whether they're a viable archer prior to level 6? Anyone can take mounted combat feats and gain those abilities (even Zen archers). I agree they're a much better melee combatant as a fallback (but still worse than a fighter/archer in melee) than a zen archer.Spending 5/20 levels being poor at your specialty (in exchange for being uber-awesome at it after) is what puzzles me.
Sohei applies their ki abilities to their mount, which right out of the gate means they rub the ZA's face in the dirt at mounted combat. It's hard to do mounted combat when your mount keeps dying out from underneath you.
Also, the Sohei's ability to flurry in armor drastically lowers the need for WIS. The Zen Archer's stat consolidation doesn't kick in until 3rd level, meaning you either get to be a crappy archer for the first two levels, or you have to have at least a 16 in your DEX if you want to have any reasonable chance of hitting.
If you have a campaign where mounted archery is viable, the Sohei is a better archer, thanks to the fact that he's a better mounted combatant. He's also a better rounded character thanks to his ability to take advantage of the melee options of mounted combat without having to expend much in the way of feats, so when an enemy actually decides to use cover or casts an obstructing spell like wind wall, the Sohei isn't taken out of the fight the way the Zen Archer is.
If mounted combat isn't viable, the Zen Archer is still likely worse during the first 2 levels of play due to stat distribution needs, and then finally getting to squeeze a bit of a lead at ranged combat during third level. Unfortunately, he's giving up evasion and still mind to do it. You know what's worse than an archer with 3/4 BAB? A dead or dominated archer. Granted, the ZA's ability to rely on WIS hopefully means that he washes in the Will save department, but he's still vulnerable to ranged AoE's.
At 4th level the Sohei gets the ability to begin applying enhancement bonuses to his weapons. This is doubly good, because if you're following the recommended balanced approach to WBL from the CRB, you may not actually have a magic weapon yet. Combined with the fact that the Sohei has only been needing to support 1 primary stat amd two secondaries instead of two primaries (or again, not sucking through the first two levels of play), this means he's still staying very competitive with the Sohei, especially as regards enemies with incorporeality or DR/magic.
5th level is the first level where the Zen Archer finally has a definitive lead, assuming mounted combat is not viable, because you've got ki arrows and enough uses of perfect strike that it's going to be a real factor. Congratulations, you got 1 level where you finally really had an edge, before the sohei's weapon training kicks in and he grabs that edge definitively for at least the next 3 levels.
Considering the fact that this is also discussing a character who's going to be going Fighter, Sohei as a choice makes even more sense. You can use the same stat distribution for both classes you can stack weapon training, or he can go with the Archer Fighter archetype and stack Weapon Training with Gloves of Dueling and Expert Archer.
All nice, but only one actually compensates you really for being a crappy archer, and the one archery-synergistic ability is 4 levels in. A zen archer (which is poorly designed, as I see it) at least keeps pace with a low level ranger in archery output (and defenses, generally). STR is as important for zen archers as wis is for sohei.
If you're going to make assumptions and hand out items liberally, you probably should make apples to apples comparisons, too.
I'm still not convinced the best path is not 5 levels of Zen then retrain to Sohei at level 6.
... poor argument is poor.
strength is much more valuable to a zen archer then wisdom is to a sohei. extra damage is a necessity for archery to be effective.
a 3rd level armorless monk wont have much more then a ring of protection AT BEST while a sohei will have 4+ more AC without any magic at all. assuming your character will have WBL isnt much of an assumption.
whether or not you're convinced is irrelevant. a -1 to hit for 4 levels is nothing in comparison to what you gain by going sohei. not to mention that -1 is negated by the need to use a secondary stat to hit with for the first 2 levels as a zen archer.
going in surprise round and an initiative bonus alone makes the sohei a better archer at low levels.
Okay, let's compare and assume human (otherwise your Sohei is an embarrassment at archery until level 3):
Zen archer
Level 1: Flurry BAB +1 (-1/-1), gets PB shot, perfect shot, far shot and mounted combat, can flurry w/bow
Level 2: Flurry BAB +2 (0/0), gets precise shot and weapon focus
Level 3: Flurry BAB +3 (etc), gets PB master, rapid shot (Zen archery is irrelevant, since you'll become a Sohei at level 6)
Level 4: Flurry BAB +4, ki pool and ki range(weak)
Level 5: Flurry BAB +5, ki arrows ability, mounted archery
Level 6: Flurry BAB +6 (+4/+4/-1), weapon specialization, manyshot, slow fall Or
retrain to Sohei, losing many archery feats, but retraining to have PB shot, rapid shot, precise shot, weapon focus, mounted combat, mounted archery, slow fall - can flurry at +4/+4/+4/-1 (w/out ability scores) due to weapon training
Sohei
Level 1: Bab+0, rapid shot at -2/-2, gets PB shot, rapid shot, mounted combat, act in surprise round, armor
Level 2: Bab+1, rapid shot at -1/-1, gets mounted archery, init. bonus, monk powers
Level 3: BAB+2, etc., gets precise shot, monk powers
Level 4: BAB+3, etc., stops getting HTH damage, mount powers, mount ki powers, ki pool
Level 5: BAB+3, etc., gets weapon focus, high jump
Now that I'm looking at this, I'm starting to see what James is doing.
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Design Manager
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The weapon bonus ability is not really worth mentioning. +1 for 1 round?
Actually 2 rounds. It's a swift action and lasts until the end of your next turn. In most combats you arent' going to need to use it more than once or twice. Since it's an enhancement bonus it can also perform the normal added duty of assiting with overcoming the various types of DR as it scales.
Persoanlly, I would say it looks like the Zen Archer has an edge in the lower levels, but the Sohei eventually surpasses him once Weapon Training comes online and he catches up with the Zen Archer's bonus feats.
Persoanlly, I would say it looks like the Zen Archer has an edge in the lower levels, but the Sohei eventually surpasses him once Weapon Training comes online and he catches up with the Zen Archer's bonus feats.
I was thinking the same way until I did the analysis above - just in terms of archery power, you're losing out on a whole lot of things that make you a better archer in exchange for being able to rapid shot. And the Zen can backfill those feats and get things like manyshot to make up for that missing attack. My next question will be is it worth it to continue as Zen, or start taking fighter levels? After 6th level, I'm not sure it's worth it...
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Zen archer
Level 1: Flurry BAB +1 (-1/-1), gets PB shot, perfect shot, far shot and mounted combat, can flurry w/bow
Level 2: Flurry BAB +2 (0/0), gets precise shot and weapon focus
Level 3: Flurry BAB +3 (etc), gets PB master, rapid shot (Zen archery is irrelevant, since you'll become a Sohei at level 6)
Level 4: Flurry BAB +4, ki pool and ki range(weak)
Level 5: Flurry BAB +5, ki arrows ability, mounted archery
Level 6: Flurry BAB +6 (+4/+4/-1), weapon specialization, manyshot, slow fall Or
retrain to Sohei, losing many archery feats, but retraining to have PB shot, rapid shot, precise shot, weapon focus, mounted combat, mounted archery, slow fall - can flurry at +4/+4/+4/-1 (w/out ability scores) due to weapon trainingSohei
Level 1: Bab+0, rapid shot at -2/-2, gets PB shot, rapid shot, mounted combat, act in surprise round, armor
Level 2: Bab+1, rapid shot at -1/-1, gets mounted archery, init. bonus, monk powers
Level 3: BAB+2, etc., gets precise shot, monk powers
Level 4: BAB+3, etc., stops getting HTH damage, mount powers, mount ki powers, ki pool
Level 5: BAB+3, etc., gets weapon focus, high jumpNow that I'm looking at this, I'm starting to see what James is doing.
left out a substantial amount of facts from that little display.
*what stats does the zen archer have? because im looking at 4 stats minimum. or if you tank strength and deal little to no damage, as an awesome archer that you are.
*whats your ac?
*sohei skips straight to ride by attack and mounted archery (assuming your campaign isnt a dungeon delve).
* you say that the sohei has to be a human or "you're an embarrassment at archery until level 3" but even with just precise shot a single arrow from a sohei hits at +4 for 7.5 damage, versus your zen archer who until level 3 will only hit for what +2/+2 at 2d8 +2(10 assuming you can actually hit 2 times)for (assuming dex of 3) until you can get that +4 from your wisdom, thats also assuming you tanked you con for strength so you can actually deal some kind of damage.
*what are your HP? i know you think this may not matter for a ranged character but you will get hit also
* and far shot? i think you kinda proved my point about not knowing what youre talking about...
in conclusion the sohei is an all around better character. in the worst case the sohei is only slightly behind the zen archer, for 3 levels then pushes him down and steals his lunch money past level 3.
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Design Manager
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TSK might have been a little meaner about it than I was, but yeah, listing the base class frame doesn't account for performance at all. I can have a character how deals 1k points of damage a round and it doesn't matter if I can't deliver it or execute it. What happens when you put the same point buy behind each framework? What's the comparative survivability of both classes? Without Evasion is that ZA going to survive even 1 fireball? How about 2? Because there is a very basic truth that the DPR of a dead guy is 0.
Both archetypes make for really good character choices, and both are in the top tier for archery. The Sohei's best tricks come on line a little bit later in the game, but he's still able to compete at a very reasonable level, and he's more adaptable than the Zen Archer is, and able to function more competently on a tighter stat spread.
There are some reasons I could see taking either class for. ZA's Trick Shot ability is actually one of their best features and helps a lot with overcoming options that can completely shut down archery, occasionally allowing them to overcome an obstacle a Sohei would have to switch to a melee weapon to deal. Sohei can stack up a much larger number of attacks by combining Rapid Shot and Manyshot with Flurry, and can get much more out of mounted archery, which is arguably one of, if not the, most powerful combat styles in the game.
The Sohei isn't a "crappy" archer at low levels however. He's got a solid bag of tricks, the appropriate proficiencies, and all the little bits and pieces necessary to make archery work. While he may be a bit behind during the 3rd and 5th levels compared to a ZA, he makes up for it in a big way by 6th. The ZA's lead at 1st and 2nd is really nonexistent if you compare apples to apples and actually put both builds on the same point buy and WBL recommendations as laid out in the CRB.
No, Thomas Long. The Zen Archer's description specifically calls out that you cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot.
When Flurrying, there have been good buidls that use the normal attacks and those feats.
I think both sides of this ZenArcher/Sohei argument are biases. Both are functional characters that have ups and downs. Depends on what you want.
Persoanlly, I would say it looks like the Zen Archer has an edge in the lower levels, but the Sohei eventually surpasses him once Weapon Training comes online and he catches up with the Zen Archer's bonus feats.I was thinking the same way until I did the analysis above - just in terms of archery power, you're losing out on a whole lot of things that make you a better archer in exchange for being able to rapid shot. And the Zen can backfill those feats and get things like manyshot to make up for that missing attack. My next question will be is it worth it to continue as Zen, or start taking fighter levels? After 6th level, I'm not sure it's worth it...
How does a comparison of the two classes that stops at level five dispute the argument that the Zen Archer has the advantage at low levels, but the sohei closes the gap later?
Zen archer
Level 1: Flurry BAB +1 (-1/-1), gets PB shot, perfect shot, far shot and mounted combat, can flurry w/bow
Level 2: Flurry BAB +2 (0/0), gets precise shot and weapon focus
Level 3: Flurry BAB +3 (etc), gets PB master, rapid shot (Zen archery is irrelevant, since you'll become a Sohei at level 6)
Level 4: Flurry BAB +4, ki pool and ki range(weak)
Level 5: Flurry BAB +5, ki arrows ability, mounted archery
Level 6: Flurry BAB +6 (+4/+4/-1), weapon specialization, manyshot, slow fall Or
retrain to Sohei, losing many archery feats, but retraining to have PB shot, rapid shot, precise shot, weapon focus, mounted combat, mounted archery, slow fall - can flurry at +4/+4/+4/-1 (w/out ability scores) due to weapon trainingSohei
Level 1: Bab+0, rapid shot at -2/-2, gets PB shot, rapid shot, mounted combat, act in surprise round, armor
Level 2: Bab+1, rapid shot at -1/-1, gets mounted archery, init. bonus, monk powers
Level 3: BAB+2, etc., gets precise shot, monk powers
Level 4: BAB+3, etc., stops getting HTH damage, mount powers, mount ki powers, ki pool
Level 5: BAB+3, etc., gets weapon focus, high jumpNow that I'm looking at this, I'm starting to see what James is doing.
left out a substantial amount of facts from that little display.
*what stats does the zen archer have? because im looking at 4 stats minimum. or if you tank strength and deal little to no damage, as an awesome archer that you are.
*whats your ac?
*sohei skips straight to ride by attack and mounted archery (assuming your campaign isnt a dungeon delve).
* you say that the sohei has to be a human or "you're an embarrassment at archery until level 3" but even with just precise shot a single arrow from a sohei hits at +4 for 7.5 damage, versus your zen archer who until level 3 will only hit for what +2/+2 at 2d8 +2(10 assuming you can actually hit 2 times)for (assuming dex of 3) until you can get that +4 from your wisdom, thats also assuming you tanked you con for strength so you can...
*stats - your sohei has an embarrassingly low number of ki points to do those powers you overvalue if you dump wisdom. If you do so, it does alleviate the MAD issue somewhat
*AC - yes, a Sohei gets ahead in AC, but this is less important for an archer, as opposed to a hybrid archer/melee (if that's what you value, I've admitted repeatedly Sohei is better), also Zen catches up and exceeds a Sohei base (nonmagic) AC - for free (0 gp)! Also, you're essentially a rogue without sneak attack.*Mounted archery feats - largely irrelevant as you saw above (since Zen has the feats to take them), but you're going to skip the one that keeps your mount alive if someone melees with it? Or you're going to skip to one that doesn't matter for archery?
*non human Sohei - at first level gets PB shot, can't take precise or rapid until 3rd - that they're a poor archer seems self-evident.
Far shot illustrated one thing - how deep a zen is at archery feats that they could consider it. Perhaps they'll just take mounted archery instead, if you think that's worthwhile...
How does a comparison of the two classes that stops at level five dispute the argument that the Zen Archer has the advantage at low levels, but the sohei closes the gap later?Persoanlly, I would say it looks like the Zen Archer has an edge in the lower levels, but the Sohei eventually surpasses him once Weapon Training comes online and he catches up with the Zen Archer's bonus feats.I was thinking the same way until I did the analysis above - just in terms of archery power, you're losing out on a whole lot of things that make you a better archer in exchange for being able to rapid shot. And the Zen can backfill those feats and get things like manyshot to make up for that missing attack. My next question will be is it worth it to continue as Zen, or start taking fighter levels? After 6th level, I'm not sure it's worth it...
I'm saying you're poor at filling your designated role (archer) for those 5 levels. As I look at the workup, I'm staring to feel you're still not as good later (even with weapon training).
I'm saying you're poor at filling your designated role (archer) for those 5 levels. As I look at the workup, I'm staring to feel you're still not as good later (even with weapon training).
They become very competitive in dps with any other type of Archer around level 13 to 15 when they can get Imp. Precise Shot, this is due to Flurry+Rapid+Many+WeaponTraining.
*AC - yes, a Sohei gets ahead in AC, but this is less important for an archer, as opposed to a hybrid archer/melee (if that's what you value, I've admitted repeatedly Sohei is better), also Zen catches up and exceeds a Sohei base (nonmagic) AC - for free (0 gp)! Also, you're essentially a rogue without sneak attack.
I just want to point out that RAW there's nothing that allows a Sohei to supercede the normal limitation of being unable to use Flurry of Blows while wearing armor. So while the Sohei is proficient in light armor, wearing light armor forbids the use of Flurry of Blows, just like it does for every other monk.
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/monk.html#_monk
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Just gotta say, there is a reason that One was a Zen Archer and not a Sohei for Beastmass.
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Design Manager
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*stats - your sohei has an embarrassingly low number of ki points to do those powers you overvalue if you dump wisdom. If you do so, it does alleviate the MAD issue somewhat
*AC - yes, a Sohei gets ahead in AC, but this is less important for an archer, as opposed to a hybrid archer/melee (if that's what you value, I've admitted repeatedly Sohei is better), also Zen catches up and exceeds a Sohei base (nonmagic) AC - for free (0 gp)! Also, you're essentially a rogue without sneak attack.
*Mounted archery feats - largely irrelevant as you saw above (since Zen has the feats to take them), but you're going to skip the one that keeps your mount alive if someone melees with it? Or you're going to skip to one that doesn't matter for archery?
*non human Sohei - at first level gets PB shot, can't take precise or rapid until 3rd - that they're a poor archer seems self-evident.Far shot illustrated one thing - how deep a zen is at archery feats that they could consider it. Perhaps they'll just take mounted archery instead, if you think that's worthwhile...
*1/2 level + 1 is still plenty functional given that the need for those ki points is far less for the Sohei.
*The Sohei has better AC and doesn't lose Evasion. Just because you're fighting at range doesn't mean no one's ever going to attack you or lob an AoE your way. As mentioned before, the DPR of a dead character is 0. The Zen archer may get to save money on armor, but the Sohei can save money on the far more important and expensive magical weapons. By 20th level a Sohei on class abilities alone can grant his weapon a +8 to attack and damage and the ability to overcome DR/magic, cold iron, silver, adamantine, and all alignments. These benefits are scaled out starting at 4th level and progress throughout the life of play. The Zen Archer can't overcome DR with class abilities until 17th level, and even then the only alingment based DR he can overcome is Lawful. There are a remarkably small number of threats where that ability to overcome DR/Lawful is going to matter. Remarkably small.
*You're missing the fact that feats aren't the only essential component for mounted archery. You have to keep your mount alive, and the Sohei is way better at that than the Zen Archer. Unless the GM is very, very nice and all of his monster's pretend to not see the giant death machine that's allowing you to play mobile artillery unit, it's going to take about 1 round to blast your mount from under you if you don't have an animal companion or the Sohei's ability to turn his mount into a monk all by itself. It doesn't matter, at all, if a Zen Archer takes mounted combat feats. His mount will still suck, and will still die to the first AoE or the second attack an enemy makes. Having the feats is the least important factor of mounted combat. Keeping your mount alive is the most important factor, and the Sohei does that far better than the Zen Archer possibly can.
Zen Archer gets to progress into archery faster thanks to his bonus feats, but he's still missing a lot of necessary components for being a well-rounded character. Sohei is better rounded, and better able to take advantage of his stats and class abilities. They both take turns being the best at ranged damage-dealing, though the Sohei is always better if forced into melee, and is the only viable mounted combatant of the two. In any campaign where mounted archery is viable, the Sohei is going to be the more effective archer during most levels of play. If mounted archery is not viable, they'll take turns in who's the best, with the Sohei in the lead for the first couple levels thanks to actually being able to have a strong primary stat, then ZA taking the lead for a level, then SOhei having better threat mitigation at 4th, the ZA coming back at 5th, and then Sohei taking a big jump at 6th that'll hold until the ZA gets Trick Shot.
The point of course, being that you've got probably the two best archers in the game, it's just a matter of circumstance as to which is better at any given time.
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Design Manager
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*AC - yes, a Sohei gets ahead in AC, but this is less important for an archer, as opposed to a hybrid archer/melee (if that's what you value, I've admitted repeatedly Sohei is better), also Zen catches up and exceeds a Sohei base (nonmagic) AC - for free (0 gp)! Also, you're essentially a rogue without sneak attack.I just want to point out that RAW there's nothing that allows a Sohei to supercede the normal limitation of being unable to use Flurry of Blows while wearing armor. So while the Sohei is proficient in light armor, wearing light armor forbids the use of Flurry of Blows, just like it does for every other monk.
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/monk.html#_monk
You're a little late to the game. Sohei can flurry in armor.
You're a little late to the game. Sohei can flurry in armor.
Innnnnnnnnnteresting.....
My idea for a Sohei Graveknight may yet see the light of day...
stuff
I'll buy if you want to be a horse archer you're better off for Sohei, which makes sense. As I said, I think Zen is better at fulfilling the archery role - much better at low levels, and marginally so at higher. Do you really think they're better than a archery ranger, or archery fighter?
I do wonder if maybe the Sohei would make a better switch-hitter than a dedicated archer. Switch-hitting would cut down on the number or archery feats the Sohei needs, and with access to Mounted Skirmisher as a bonus feat from level 1 the Sohei does get one of the things any melee martial desperately wants: the ability to move and full attack.
Sohei is a better Switch-hitter, he is also a better rounded character. The ZenArcher is the better Archer in terms of DPR until level 15ish, this is when the Sohei Archer catches up with most other archers and becomes competitive in the DPR.
Im with Kwauss on the "Do you really think either is better than a archery fighter?" thing. I did not do all the DPR calculations, I was under the impression that Fighters had the best DPR proven in the DPR olympics.