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PACG Demoing Questions and Advice


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game General Discussion

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Hey everyone,

I recently purchased and started playing PACG and I'm hooked. I was thinking of starting a group at my local game shop and have posted on the store's forums to get the word out. Someone responded saying they were interested and wanted to try the game before committing to a group though. So to sum it up:

1. Any rules I need to follow if I wanted to Demo the game at my local game shop for a day or two (beyond getting approval from the store)?

2. Assuming I am allowed to demo it, any advice? I'm fairly fluent in the rules, have Adventure Decks 1-4, have played solo through the tutorial adventure, have played scenario 1 with a small group, and have explored the FAQ and forums a great deal to have experience in common questions.

Any other tips and information that anyone would find helpful to me would be awesome. I love this game and would love to see it played more, especially as S&S approaches.

Side note: Thank you Mike, Vic, and the development team, keep up the awesome work on an awesome game.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

The biggest thing might be to carefully guide people towards characters that can be more fun. A lot of new players I've encountered seem to want to be the wizard. Ezren is, however, one of the more complex characters to play, so you might not want to do that.

Conversely, a lot of new players seem to think that Sajan isn't all that great, because he's too simplistic. There are nuances to his strategy, but they might not be apparent to new players.

Seelah also tends to look unappealing to a new player who is fascinated by the "good stuff" (boons), since she shunts those to the bottom of a location deck...but once the boons are all old hat, this is not a big deal and is even a fun power.

Lini, Lem, Valeros, Seoni, Kyra, Amiri, Harsk, and Merisiel are pretty good for beginners. Make sure you have a balanced party - an arcane user, a divine user, a fighter, etc.

Then you should be fine. Be prepared for people to have to take it slowly as they start up. A lot of new players need to thoroughly read every card and feel as if the choice between keeping a bastard sword and a longsword is a big choice. Just let them take it slow and they'll have fun & get faster as time goes on and they gain familiarity.


I recommend printing out the FAQ, the newest version of the rules, and the character sheets. That way, you're all set for any questions that might come up.

The only real 'rule' to follow concerning playing at the shop is to not say you work for Paizo. Other than that, just follow the store's rules for conduct.

As far as gaming goes, you'll probably meet people you don't really know; keep in mind that odd questions may come up, and some people you play with may not end up liking the game so don't come back to play again.

Don't get discouraged.

Along those lines, if a heated argument arises with a new player, it's better to let them have their way once, then discuss it later when everyone has calmed down. After the game, they're less likely to be argumentative, and it gives a chance for people to go over the rules more thoroughly.

All in all, just have fun and be prepared to answer questions or make suggestions if someone seems to be having difficulty, but don't be pushy with it.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

11 people marked this as a favorite.

We've played with demo decks at various shows. It's a stripped down version of the game, with a 15-card blessings deck and 12-card characters.

The card list is:
EZREN: Quarterstaff, Arcane Armor, Force Missile, Levitate, Lightning Touch (2), Sleep, Blast Stone, Bracers of Protection, Codex, Sage, Standard Bearer
KYRA:, Mace, Quarterstaff, Cure, Guidance, Half-Plate, Holy Water, Guard, Blessing of the Gods (5)
MERISIEL: Dagger, Dart, Leather Armor, Potion of Glibness, Thieves’ Tools (2), Burglar, Guard, Blessing of the Gods (4)
VALEROS: Longsword (2), Mace, Shortsword, Chain Mail, Wooden Shield, Mattock, Potion of Healing, Night Watch, Blessing of the Gods (3)
STORY CARDS: Burnt Offerings, Attack on Sandpoint
LOCATIONS: Desecrated Vault, The Old Light, Sandpoint Cathedral, Town Square
VILLAINS & HENCHMEN: Ripnugget and Stickfoot, Goblin Raider (2), Tsuto Kaijitsu
BANES: Explosive Runes, Goblin Cutpurse, Goblin Pyro, Spectre
BOONS: Dogslicer +1, Fiery Weapon, Potion of Healing, Sage
BLESSINGS: 22 random blessings

Shuffle 1 random card from each of the Villains & Henchmen, Banes, and Boons lists into each 3-card location. It plays really quickly and is good for 4 new players. Hope that helps.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber

Marking thread.


Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber
Calthaer wrote:

The biggest thing might be to carefully guide people towards characters that can be more fun. A lot of new players I've encountered seem to want to be the wizard. Ezren is, however, one of the more complex characters to play, so you might not want to do that.

Conversely, a lot of new players seem to think that Sajan isn't all that great, because he's too simplistic. There are nuances to his strategy, but they might not be apparent to new players.

Seelah also tends to look unappealing to a new player who is fascinated by the "good stuff" (boons), since she shunts those to the bottom of a location deck...but once the boons are all old hat, this is not a big deal and is even a fun power.

Lini, Lem, Valeros, Seoni, Kyra, Amiri, Harsk, and Merisiel are pretty good for beginners. Make sure you have a balanced party - an arcane user, a divine user, a fighter, etc.

Then you should be fine. Be prepared for people to have to take it slowly as they start up. A lot of new players need to thoroughly read every card and feel as if the choice between keeping a bastard sword and a longsword is a big choice. Just let them take it slow and they'll have fun & get faster as time goes on and they gain familiarity.

I think people unfamiliar with RPGs in general want to play with the wizard because omg power, but I think introducing them to Seoni would make it easier on them (even though she's still more complicated than the pure martials, being able to autorecharge your cards makes a lot of stuff ignorable.) She's a wizard! But more powerful at the expense of versatility.


Calthaer wrote:
The biggest thing might be to carefully guide people towards characters that can be more fun. A lot of new players I've encountered seem to want to be the wizard. Ezren is, however, one of the more complex characters to play, so you might not want to do that.

Just had my friend today shoot for Ezren even after a light caution, I tried to play Lem so I could progress locations and cure when needed, but we ended up getting Lem killed on the last turn. I feel like Seoni is overlooked although her firepower has more consistency than Ezren's like zeroth_hour said. Does anyone have any good ideas for character selection to compliment someone who is dead set on playing Ezren?

Firedale2002 wrote:
All in all, just have fun and be prepared to answer questions or make suggestions if someone seems to be having difficulty, but don't be pushy with it.

This is going to be my first time organizing anything at my local game shop, and arguments and disputes are bound to happen. It's good to know how to handle them before they happen, I'll probably keep a folder with everything in it in the box for quick reference.

Thanks Mike for the demo desk lists, I was somewhat concerned about the length of a demo session, but with a quick version like this I should be able to keep things quick and minimize unexpected situations.

One of the biggest issues I've had while teaching my friends the game is when we start to get low on the clock and always have a clear (but often deadly) path to victory. Is it alright to tell everyone it's okay to fail a scenario during a demo as opposed to dying, even if they aren't attached to their characters yet? Just a question I came up with during my friend's first session today.

Thanks everyone for the advice, it's a little bit away but I want to be prepared to introduce people to the game in a positive environment.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Complimentary characters to go with Ezren kind of depends on how many other characters you're playing with. He doesn't have many "extra explore" cards (blessings + allies), so if in a large group, make sure the other players can compensate with at least 5-6 allies + blessings per character.

If you got Lem killed, then you might try Kyra. Her heal is available all the time, so it's virtually impossible to die as long as you have a divine card in your hand. She also has weapons + armor and is OK (but not great) in melee combat.


Losing is part of the game. It's okay to lose and fail, and in doing so, learning can happen.

Also, having a character that failed a scenario but gained some new cards for the deck tends to be a better outcome than having to create a new character that has basic cards and no benefit of the ones that were gained from the scenario.

So while it's 'okay' to lose, it's not always the preferred method. But in losing, new cards are usually gained that can help obtain victory next time.

As the saying goes...
"He that fights and runs away, may turn and fight another day; but he that is in battle slain, will never rise to fight again."

I think it fits this game pretty well.

The Exchange

The other option would be to simply not bring ezren to the game and replace it with seoni if you are more comfortable with her. use mike's setup above and make a simple deck for seoni instead.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I wouldn't hold anyone back from demoing Ezren. Let them see how it works.

And if you are going to play long term with someone who wants to be Ezren, then let them have some time to learn how he works. Once they do, you'll probably appreciate having him around.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mike Selinker wrote:


<snip>
BANES: Explosive Runes
<snip>

I think I may have played at Pax East with the setup listed. I'd say it was great, except for the explosive runes. My wife got taken out early with this and it kinda put a damper on the whole getting-her-into-the-game thing.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Quote:
I think I may have played at Pax East with the setup listed. I'd say it was great, except for the explosive runes. My wife got taken out early with this and it kinda put a damper on the whole getting-her-into-the-game thing.

I was one of the people running demos at PAX East, and the ones I ran used this demo setup. I shared the demo deck contents with others running at the show as well, though I know some of the other people running demos did their own thing.

I don't remember anyone getting taken out entirely at the tables I ran, but I can empathize with the getting whacked by Barriers. I play a two player game with my girlfriend; she plays Valeros and I play Lem. During one scenario, she got clocked by a Falling Bell, and thinking that she had no way to defeat it, rolled max damage and discarded her hand. It wasn't until after she realized she was holding a blessing of Calistria that would have given her good odds at jumping out if the way. She wasn't too happy about that. :/


Mike Selinker wrote:

We've played with demo decks at various shows. It's a stripped down version of the game, with a 15-card blessings deck and 12-card characters.

The card list is:
...
BLESSINGS: 22 random blessings

Shuffle 1 random card from each of the Villains & Henchmen, Banes, and Boons lists into each 3-card location. It plays really quickly and is good for 4 new players. Hope that helps.

Why the difference of 15 and 22 blessings? Am I missing something?

Sovereign Court

You'll need blessings to build the locations.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber
Andrew K wrote:
You'll need blessings to build the locations.

Do you? He says:

Mike Selinker wrote:
Shuffle 1 random card from each of the Villains & Henchmen, Banes, and Boons lists into each 3-card location. It plays really quickly and is good for 4 new players. Hope that helps.

So each location is 3 cards... That leaves you with 7 extra blessings, as they don't get shuffled into locations... Unless he meant 12 blessings and you're supposed to build a 3 blessing location deck and then shuffle the banes/boons/villians/henchmen into that, making them 6-card locations...

Sovereign Court

Misunderstood how the locations were built. There definitely seems to be quite a few extra blessings. Odd.


I think the 22 Blessings is the pool and you just take 15 for the deck. An attempt to keep the demo fresh (ie. not the same blessings all the time per demo).

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

9 people marked this as a favorite.

Here’s the card mix for the Skull & Shackles demo deck we use.

LEM: Lem character, Lem token, Sap, Rapier, Arcane Armor, Force Missile, Rum Bottle, Blast Stone, Jinx Eater, Lookout, Fox, Blessing of Erastil, Blessing of Abadar, Blessing of the Gods
JIRELLE: Jirelle character, Jirelle token, Cutlass, Whip, Cutlass +1, Chain Shirt, Old Salt’s Bandana, Caltrops, Surgeon, Dolphin, Blessing of Erastil, Blessing of Milani, Blessing of Sivanah, Blessing of the Gods
LIRIANNE: Lirianne character, Lirianne token, Musket, Dragon Pistol, Pistol, Dagger, Buckler, Powder Horn, Eye Patch, Master Gunner, Quartermaster, Blessing of Erastil, Blessing of Milani, Blessing of the Gods
VALEROS: Valeros character, Valeros token, Boarding Axe, Morningstar, Main-Gauche, Falcata, Chain Mail, Buckler, Conch Shell, Cabin Boy, Parrot, Blessing of Cayden Cailean, Blessing of Gorum, Blessing of the Gods
STORY CARDS: Plunder and Peril, Island Hopping
LOCATIONS: Coastline, Fog Bank, Lonely Island, Shark Island
SHIPS: Fleet card, Merchantman, Shackles Pirate Ship, Truewind, Wormwood
VILLAINS & HENCHMEN: Adaro Barbarian, Enemy Ship x3 (in locations); Hammerhead Shark (at Shark Island)
BANES: Blood Moon Pirate, Merfolk, Man Overboard, Pirate Hunting
BOONS: Boarding Pike, Deckhand, Emerald of Dexterity, Potion of Lucubration (in location decks); Fire Lance, Black Spot, Magic Buckler, Nautical Charts, Heartbreak Hinsin (in plunder pile); Sailor (at Lonely Island)
BLESSINGS: Blessing of the Gods x7, Blessing of Erastil x3, Blessing of Milani x3, Blessing of Sivanah x3, Blessing of Gozreh x3, Blessing of Achaekek x3

Shuffle 1 random card from each of the Villains & Henchmen, Banes, and Boons lists into each 3-card location. Put the Sailor under Lonely Island, and the Hammerhead Shark under Shark Island. Deal one plunder boon facedown under the Merchantman. Play.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mike Selinker wrote:
Here’s the card mix for the Skull & Shackles demo deck we use.

Thank you very much, Mike. Was going to have to come up with something for tomorrow night. Very much appreciated.

This is the basic S&S demo setup from Origins and GenCon?

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

Theryon Stormrune wrote:

Thank you very much, Mike. Was going to have to come up with something for tomorrow night. Very much appreciated.

This is the basic S&S demo setup from Origins and GenCon?

Yup.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Hey Mike. This was brought back up because a teacher wants to include PACG:RotR in his after school game club and wants to let students demo it in a short time frame before they play a longer game.

In your original post, in one place you said a 15 cards blessing deck but in another you said 22 random blessings. So the question about the RotR demo is how many blessings make up the blessing deck, 15 or 22? Based on the S&S demo I'm guessing it is 22. Correct?

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

1 person marked this as a favorite.

15 in the deck. You may need some more if you beat the villain a few times.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Mike Selinker wrote:
15 in the deck. You may need some more if you beat the villain a few times.

Ah. Ok. Thanks for clarifying. Same thing for S&S I take it?

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

Yes.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Alrighty. Thanks again for the info. Much appreciated. Hopefully we'll have some new PACG players by the end of the day.

Sovereign Court

Mike Selinker wrote:
15 in the deck. You may need some more if you beat the villain a few times.

Ah, of course!

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I was putting the S&S demo decks together as you posted them, but I only have 5 blessings of Erastil and what you have lists 6. 3 for players, 3 for the randoms...

EDIT: Just checked my other set, and it only has 5 as well...


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Well, the demo decks they used were printed specifically for demo purposes. So potentially the cards aren't quite the same quantities. It looks like they wanted there to be a good possibility of getting to recharge a blessing sometime during the game based on the setup.

I'd just put an extra BotG in the potential blessing deck pile.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Mike Selinker wrote:

Here’s the card mix for the Skull & Shackles demo deck we use.

LEM: Lem character, Lem token, Sap, Rapier, Arcane Armor, Force Missile, Rum Bottle, Blast Stone, Jinx Eater, Lookout, Fox, Blessing of Erastil, Blessing of Abadar, Blessing of the Gods

Any particular suggestions to replace Lem's Character Add-On Deck-only cards until said same make their way out to the public at large?

Thanks!

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

1 person marked this as a favorite.

We will be publishing a "how to make and run this demo" document very soon, and it'll include all the necessary modifications to the list Mike gave you. In the meantime, just pick a card of the same type with the Basic trait.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
We will be publishing a "how to make and run this demo" document very soon, and it'll include all the necessary modifications to the list Mike gave you. In the meantime, just pick a card of the same type with the Basic trait.

Ah, cool. I thought maybe this was that. 8>)

Pathfinder ACG Designer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Johnny Chronicle wrote:
Mike Selinker wrote:

Here’s the card mix for the Skull & Shackles demo deck we use.

LEM: Lem character, Lem token, Sap, Rapier, Arcane Armor, Force Missile, Rum Bottle, Blast Stone, Jinx Eater, Lookout, Fox, Blessing of Erastil, Blessing of Abadar, Blessing of the Gods

Any particular suggestions to replace Lem's Character Add-On Deck-only cards until said same make their way out to the public at large?

Thanks!

Or you could replace Fox with Captain and Blast Stone with Bracers of Protection. Replace the 3 Blessings of Erastil with Blessings of Pharasma in the blessings deck; you'll find you're short one.

FWIW, when I run demos, I put 12 blessings in the blessings deck and don't have a problem.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Tanis O'Connor wrote:

Or you could replace Fox with Captain and Blast Stone with Bracers of Protection. Replace the 3 Blessings of Erastil with Blessings of Pharasma in the blessings deck; you'll find you're short one.

FWIW, when I run demos, I put 12 blessings in the blessings deck and don't have a problem.

That's what I'm talking about! Thanks!

Still looking forward to the demo document!

Pathfinder ACG Designer

Johnny Chronicle wrote:

That's what I'm talking about! Thanks!

Still looking forward to the demo document!

You and me both. One more thing -- I believe the Potion of Lucubration, found in the banes, is C-only. If that's true for you, replace it with an Anchor. Yarrr!


Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck Subscriber
Tanis O'Connor wrote:
Johnny Chronicle wrote:

That's what I'm talking about! Thanks!

Still looking forward to the demo document!

You and me both. One more thing -- I believe the Potion of Lucubration, found in the banes, is C-only. If that's true for you, replace it with an Anchor. Yarrr!

I'm now confused. The Potion of Lucubration is an item, right? How can it be a bane?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

creative spelling ;)

Pathfinder ACG Designer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
zeroth_hour wrote:
Tanis O'Connor wrote:
Johnny Chronicle wrote:

That's what I'm talking about! Thanks!

Still looking forward to the demo document!

You and me both. One more thing -- I believe the Potion of Lucubration, found in the banes, is C-only. If that's true for you, replace it with an Anchor. Yarrr!
I'm now confused. The Potion of Lucubration is an item, right? How can it be a bane?

You know, B-A-N-E, pronounced "boon". Derp.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Demo guide now available.

Sovereign Court

*giggles like schoolgirl*

Finally get to run this at my local shop and try to gauge interest in the game! Haven't downloaded it yet, but this is the one that includes the OP upgrade voucher, right?

Pathfinder ACG Designer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Andrew K wrote:

*giggles like schoolgirl*

Finally get to run this at my local shop and try to gauge interest in the game! Haven't downloaded it yet, but this is the one that includes the OP upgrade voucher, right?

Ayup.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Day made. Thanks to the stalwart crew that put this together!

I noticed a couple discrepancies:

1. The 3 Hammerhead Shark Henchmen on the Demo Card List doesn't jibe with the "Threat Stack" description under "Setup." (It should just be 2 Sharks, plus the Enemy Ship and Adaro Barbarian for a 4-card stack, correct?)

2. There's an additional Hammerhead Shark and a Sailor listed as "set aside" on the Demo Card List, but I can't find where it tells you what to do with them in the guide. (Mike's post above suggests they should go in the Shark Island and Lonely Island location decks, respectively. But I couldn't spot that in the guide.)

Thanks again!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tanis O'Connor wrote:
Andrew K wrote:

*giggles like schoolgirl*

Finally get to run this at my local shop and try to gauge interest in the game! Haven't downloaded it yet, but this is the one that includes the OP upgrade voucher, right?

Ayup.

*looks under the PDF*

Voucher? Don't need no stinkin' voucher! ...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Class Deck, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Demo guide now available.

Ok, how the h*ll did you find this? I was looking all over for posts.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Demo guide now available.

Thank you for pointing this out! I've been running just regular games as Demos so now I can run these and give people credit towards organized play to boot. :)

Pathfinder ACG Designer

Theryon Stormrune wrote:
Voucher? Don't need no stinkin' voucher! ...

Mini-Chronicle sheet == voucher/coupon/thing you get for playing.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Johnny Chronicle wrote:

Day made. Thanks to the stalwart crew that put this together!

I noticed a couple discrepancies:

1. The 3 Hammerhead Shark Henchmen on the Demo Card List doesn't jibe with the "Threat Stack" description under "Setup." (It should just be 2 Sharks, plus the Enemy Ship and Adaro Barbarian for a 4-card stack, correct?)

2. There's an additional Hammerhead Shark and a Sailor listed as "set aside" on the Demo Card List, but I can't find where it tells you what to do with them in the guide. (Mike's post above suggests they should go in the Shark Island and Lonely Island location decks, respectively. But I couldn't spot that in the guide.)

Thanks again!

On page 2, under "Setup," the last bullet point went missing. It said:

• Set aside 1 Hammerhead Shark henchman (which may be summoned by the location Shark Island) and the ally Sailor (which is the reward for closing the location Lonely Island).

We'll put that back in and fix the card count (only 2 sharks in the threat stack is correct).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My problem with the demo guide is the inclusion of Lirianne, who is a class not available to folks playing in the PACG. I'd far rather see demos set up around the 7 playable classes.

Sovereign Court

Sarta wrote:
My problem with the demo guide is the inclusion of Lirianne, who is a class not available to folks playing in the PACG. I'd far rather see demos set up around the 7 playable classes.

If the demo were specifically for OP, and not just something that gives an once give to do OP, I'd agree. However, as a general demo, I think it's good that two of the characters are ones only available in S&S.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Andrew K is correct that the demo is not primarily a PFSACG tool—it's primarily a demo for Skull & Shackles. We needed it to use only cards from the Skull & Shackles Base Set, so that limited our choices to 7 characters. From those, we wanted to provide a mix of characters that debuted in S&S (because they're new!) and characters that were returning from RotR (so that if you'd played one before, you'd see that they're a bit different in the new set).

It's actually impossible to give you a 4-player demo that uses only characters from the S&S Base Set that are *also* currently legal characters in PFSACG Org Play—Lem, Merisiel, and Valeros are the only 3 that fit that description.

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