animal companion and the use of armor proficiency feat


Advice

1 to 50 of 69 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Sovereign Court

I'm new to pathfinder and rpgs as will. I'm a 4th lvl ranger in pfs. I just got my animal companion(wolf) cause I wanted to trip. Now as for the feats iv looked at them but I kind of like armor pro the best as of what I want him to do. Now to the question. Does taking armor proficiency once let him wear all classes of armor. A way to bypass and not need the feat at all would be nice.

Sczarni

read light armor prof, med armor prof and heavy...

Sovereign Court

Ok so it works just as players armor prof feat. So for getting breast plate well eat two feats.

Scarab Sages

The armor proficiencies are indepdentant feats, light, medium (which requires light) and heavy (which requires medium). Its very feat intensive to put an animal in heavier than light armor. Since the armor check penalty is 0, you don't really need proficiency.

You can also just get a set of masterwork studded leather barding for now, and either a new set of studded leather barding or mithral chain shirt barding when he grows up.

Druids Local 704 considers sending a ranger animal companion that you haven't gotten the boon companion feat for to be a pointy stick offense against nature, because he's going to have the life expectancy of a mayfly.

Silver Crusade

Archive of Nethys Boon Companion Link

Sovereign Court

I'm going to toss myself under the bus but how to I get boon companion. The story's are endless what is the truth lol


You normally just take it as a feat at 5th level.

Sczarni

for PFS, go buy animal companion book... that'll make your mount/pet/etc four levels higher (max your level)

as to the relevance of your armor question... not very.

It is however, useful for you.

Sovereign Court

Book? Is this like the shirt rerolls. Or book in game.

Sczarni

as in As in buying this.

Sovereign Court

Ok well that about sums it all up. One last question. Does can a wolf trip on a attack of opportunity.


Flutter wrote:

Druids Local 704 considers sending a ranger animal companion that you haven't gotten the boon companion feat for to be a pointy stick offense against nature, because he's going to have the life expectancy of a mayfly.

@OP,

I have a sixth level archery ranger with an ACom and i did not take Boon Companion. Through 7 scenarios, I haven't had any problems (but you never know what might happen next). I've used her combat intelligently and she's taken down a couple of beasties by herself or maybe with a little help. Mostly I use her as a flanking buddy for anyone who has sneak attack.

However, the key thing to ask yourself is what is nominal role of the ACom for a Ranger? The designers have never given it the Druid progression, so that should be a red flag that the creature is not meant to be full time combatant.

If you are going to use your ACom in combat, you do have to be smart about it. You can't throw a wolf at the Ceustodaemon and think the wolf will come out on top. Boon Companion will certainly put you on a level playing field with a Druid in terms of the animal, but you'll generally (depending on build) lack the melee/spell support that the Druid typically offers.

I think too many people who play rangers are kind of tricked into trying to make the animals full fledged combatants rather than finding a more niche role. It may be that most leverage is from dumping combat prowess on it, but as I said above, I'm trying to use the animal in away that I think is consistent with the fact it's -3 on the Druid progression table.

That having been said, I am probably going to take BC for my Sword and Shield Ranger.


dilligaff wrote:
Ok well that about sums it all up. One last question. Does can a wolf trip on a attack of opportunity.

The trip is a free result from a normal bite attack. So technically yes.

If you wanted the wolf to trip without a bite, you'd have to teach it the Combat Maneuver trick and then instruct it to trip before the AoO came up.

Sovereign Court

To n n959

I see that I can't just push him into the battlefield like that. I'm a 2 weapons ranger. I'll always have that -2 to put up with. I like to flank when ever I can. But my teammates won't set up flanks even if there if there is now risk to do so. That's why I wanted the wolf...trip was a good plus

Sovereign Court

N n959

Wow me and my 2 star gm fought over this for like an hour and half today. And I was under the same impression as you are. With tripAoO. He ruled to OP!


dilligaff wrote:
Ok well that about sums it all up. One last question. Does can a wolf trip on a attack of opportunity.

Thats a debated topic in the rules.

Camp A says no, the trip attempt is a free action and you can't take free actions outside of your turn.

Camp B says that the trip attempt is part of the bite attempt.


I hate giving advice to players on builds, but look at all your options for AC's. Wolf may seem an obvious choice, but if it's JUST a flanking buddy you want, there may be better ones for what you want. Think about the long term progression and how you plan on getting there. As someone pointed out, Trying to use armor on an ACom is going to get very expensive.

Sovereign Court

Will for the sake of the store and gm sanity I dropped it. But a pazo tie breaker would be nice

Sovereign Court

As I'm new to rpg. Any help is greatly appreciated.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
dilligaff wrote:
Ok well that about sums it all up. One last question. Does can a wolf trip on a attack of opportunity.

Thats a debated topic in the rules.

Camp A says no, the trip attempt is a free action and you can't take free actions outside of your turn.

Camp B says that the trip attempt is part of the bite attempt.

Well, Camp A is wrong by virtue of the Snap Shot feat:

PRD:Snap Shot wrote:
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
Core - Ammunition excerpt wrote:
When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action...

Since drawing ammo is a free action, if Free actions are not allowed during AoO's, then you could not use Snap Shot (unless you had the weapon loaded) as you would not be able to draw ammo to make the AoO.

Scarab Sages

Welcome to the pathfinder society non humanoid pathfinders union. Please take a card

Sczarni

trip happens IF you succesfully bite.

prd wrote:
Trip (Ex) A creature with the trip special attack can attempt to trip its opponent as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity if it hits with the specified attack. If the attempt fails, the creature is not tripped in return.

So if the bite misses no bueno. if it bites a target, no make a free action trip attempt.

Sovereign Court

Flutter wrote:
Welcome to the pathfinder society non humanoid pathfinders union. Please take a card

thanks that helped

Sovereign Court

So my wolf can try and trip with AoO.

Sczarni

he would be better off biting with an AoO then if he bites, doing a trip on top of it.

Sovereign Court

As I can tell wolf trip as part of the bite. So it would be like grabbing a leg than pulling target to
Cause trip. As an AoO why would he lose the trip. But if the trip always came with his attack. Once he tripped you and you tried to stand bam AoO and yet another chance to trip. My pfs gm ruled over powered. If the wolf had you down why would he just let you back up?


dilligaff wrote:

As I can tell wolf trip as part of the bite. So it would be like grabbing a leg than pulling target to

Cause trip. As an AoO why would he lose the trip.

The argument (which i do not agree with, but is unclear in the rules, so it is the dm's call) is that the wolf cannot take a free action when its not his turn, so he can't use the trip attempt.

Quote:
But if the trip always came with his attack. Once he tripped you and you tried to stand bam AoO and yet another chance to trip. My pfs gm ruled over powered. If the wolf had you down why would he just let you back up?

THAT definitely does not work. The aoo comes before the person rises. They're already prone, you can't trip them.

Faq Linky

Sovereign Court

Ok on the second part for sure. Did not know that it cam before getting up. But would still wolf would get plus to hit for him being prone right.

Sovereign Court

Will have you looked at snap shot feat. Drawing an arrow is a free action right.


dilligaff wrote:
Ok on the second part for sure. Did not know that it cam before getting up. But would still wolf would get plus to hit for him being prone right.

Eyup.

Sovereign Court

Still would like a paizo ruling on the AoO trip. Cause the wolf gets to attack at this point. And it's attack+trip. Why does AoO change his bite? What about picking trip or damages from bite but not both. Than there is snap shot. AoO with a bow. You get to draw a arrow as a free action...

Sovereign Court

Thank you all for your time. This wasn't the train wreck I thought it might become...but lol

Shadow Lodge

The Attack of Opportunity occurs BEFORE the action that triggered it. In the case of a creature standing up, the AoO cannot trip him because he's already prone at the time the AoO is being resolved; even if we ignored that, his action (standing up) is resolved after the AoO, meaning he's on his feet anyways.

FYI, this is not an issue exclusive to a creature with the trip special ability; anyone can elect to trip as their AoO.

Now, as to whether an AoO provoked from anything else (such as moving out of a threatened square), the trip special ability explicitly calls out that the trip is performed as a free action, and unless the ability states otherwise (such as speaking), you cannot perform a free action if it's not your turn. In other words, the wolf would not be able to trip on an AoO any more than a character could drop prone between a melee combatant swinging at him and an archer shooting at him.

Sovereign Court

Ok I get that I can't retrip. But why does the wolf lose the trip special part of his bite attack on a AoO. Every time he bites (1d6+trip) if he can't cause trip cause of a AoO attack why attack at all.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

During your round, the wolf runs up, bites the bug bear, hits, deals damage, attempts to trip as a free action. No problem

The bugbear moves away, draws and aoo. The wolf bites, damages....

I say the trip is part of the attack of opportunity.

Some others say the bite is a free action and you can't take free actions out of turn.

Sczarni

3 people marked this as a favorite.

anyone that tells you that you can't perform an action that's part of an attack, is just being pedantic in their readings.

Quote:
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

You may take this action, because the bite attack has a special rider that when you take that action you may as a free action trip if it hits.

Regardless of other semantic arguments about free actions, this one has no merit here.


SCPRedMage wrote:


Now, as to whether an AoO provoked from anything else (such as moving out of a threatened square), the trip special ability explicitly calls out that the trip is performed as a free action, and unless the ability states otherwise (such as speaking), you cannot perform a free action if it's not your turn. In other words, the wolf would not be able to trip on an AoO any more than a character could drop prone between a melee combatant swinging at him and an archer shooting at him.

if the Snap Shot feat allows me to draw any arrow and shoot someone as part of my AoO, then this is demonstratively incorrect.

As Lantzkev points out, the rider you claim that needs to be there...is there. The bite attack explicitly allows the trip as a Free action. Please show me where its says a Free Action is limited to your turn and your turn alone?

If the bite hits, you get to make the trip attempt. This is not subject to GM discretion any more than drawing an arrow as a free action is subject to GM discretion.

Sczarni

lantzkev wrote:

anyone that tells you that you can't perform an action that's part of an attack, is just being pedantic in their readings.

Quote:
Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

You may take this action, because the bite attack has a special rider that when you take that action you may as a free action trip if it hits.

Regardless of other semantic arguments about free actions, this one has no merit here.

Let's not debate this here.

Check out this thread instead.

It's up to 90 FAQ clicks in just over two weeks. You'll see that there really isn't one argument that's better than the other.

Don't forget to click the FAQ button when you're there =).

Sczarni

no it's not an issue of debate though.

Free actions specifically say "you can perform it while taking another action normally"

AoO lets you take an action, that action has a free action rider with it. There's no need to debate it. The debate in that thread is largely revolving around things like dropping prone as a free action during someone elses turn, and other free action stuff.

There's no need to think this area is some cloudy grey area when the rules quite straightforward say "if you bite you may free action trip" and free actions state "you can do this while performing another action"... (bite)

The fact that some things are debated doesn't mean they aren't clear, but that some people are deliberatly pretending they aren't.

Sczarni

You're ignoring the fact that free actions may only be taken on your turn.

Jason Bulmahn disagrees with your assertion (or at least he did years ago when he was quoted).

It's not as cut and dry as you make it seem. Years of the same question again and again confirm that. And at least 90 ppl in the last two weeks also agree.

Plus the OP of this thread and his GM.

Did you click the FAQ button?

Sczarni

Quote:
You're ignoring the fact that free actions may only be taken on your turn.

I guess I'm also ignoring that you can only attack in your turn...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:

You're ignoring the fact that free actions may only be taken on your turn.

Jason Bulmahn disagrees with your assertion (or at least he did years ago when he was quoted).

If I read Jason's quote correctly, what he disagreed with was allowing combat maneuvers during AoO's. His concern was doing things like repeatedly using Trip on someone as they are standing up so that they can never stand up. Paizo addressed this specific problem.

Considering that it is now RAW that you can use a combat maneuver during RAW, Jason's past post seems totally irrelevant to the question.

What's odd about your long discussion is that two things seem to settle the issue, yet no one seems to be willing to concede it:

1. Snap shot clearly requires that you take a free action during an AoO

2. The apparent FAQ which states that you can combine Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes.

FAQ on Snap Shot & CR wrote:
Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.

This can be read as:

As long as you can Trip as a free action, you can make a trip attempt as part of your bite.

It's late and I'm at a loss for how this FAQ leaves the door open for any debate? I looked through your thread and I didn't immediately see an answer.

Sczarni

Do us both a favor and copy your comment over in that thread.

It does us no good in this one.

Snap Shot, and the existence of that FAQ, has been discussed at length. It does not solve anything, and I've seen two different interpretations of what it means in the grander scheme of free actions.

But, seriously, this isn't the thread to have that discussion.

Sczarni

Quote:
It does not solve anything, and I've seen two different interpretations of what it means in the grander scheme of free actions.

It solves everything when you're not worried if other people are confused about something and only focus on what's important... what the rules say. (relevant points I've already posted and the above cements it)

This isn't a debate, this is PFS gen discussion. Unless they say in PFS it doesn't work, your wolf with trip, will attempt a free trip on AoOs when he lands a bite as part of an AoO.

Sovereign Court

Ok thanks guys and girls. Didn't know this such hot subject. And I see that everybody is torn on this. I'm sure about one thing seeing all these stars. Im not a know it all and that's why iv asked.


dilligaff wrote:
And I see that everybody is torn on this.

That's not really an accurate representation of the discussion here. I'm not "torn." As you are new to PFS, and I assume the PF on-line community, you'll find that there is almost always someone who will disagree with how a rule is interpreted, no matter how clearly it is written. Just because someone expresses confusion or a contrary position doesn't mean the rule is unclear. Sometimes people who run red lights swear the light was green.

As case in point, the first time I went to the local games store to play, everyone at the store was telling me that if you shoot from the corner of your square around a corner, you take a cover penalty versus a target. This is clearly wrong. Yet, when I pointed this out, everyone said this is what the local VL had ruled. The next week I spoke to the local VL and after a friendly discussion, he agreed that I was correct. The entire store had been playing it wrong despite the rules.


dilligaff wrote:
Ok thanks guys and girls. Didn't know this such hot subject. And I see that everybody is torn on this. I'm sure about one thing seeing all these stars. Im not a know it all and that's why iv asked.

Keep in mind, there's no qualifications, at all to dm. anyone with a pfs number can do it. A lot of stars just means you have no li..erm... contribute a lot to the community by DMing often.

Sczarni

lantzkev wrote:
This isn't a debate, this is PFS gen discussion. Unless they say in PFS it doesn't work, your wolf with trip, will attempt a free trip on AoOs when he lands a bite as part of an AoO.

You can't simply dismiss a five year old argument because you believe your view is correct. People have a legitimate stance on both sides of this issue. If you sit down at a table, and the GM tells you no Trip or Grab on an AoO, he or she is 100% within their right to do so. If the GM rules that you can, he or she is also within their right to do so. This isn't a black or white issue.

N N 959 wrote:
you'll find that there is almost always someone who will disagree with how a rule is interpreted, no matter how clearly it is written. Just because someone expresses confusion or a contrary position doesn't mean the rule is unclear. Sometimes people who run red lights swear the light was green.

Except the rules on this aren't clear. That's why we're trying to get it FAQ'd. You may think they are, but in reality, so does the person who holds a view opposite yours.

And for the record, you two are arguing with the wrong person here. *I* am of the camp that believes you *can* use the Grab or Trip ability on an AoO, but as you'll see in the other thread (which is where we should really be having this discussion) many people firmly believe you can't.

And, until an FAQ is issued, they are free to run their tables like that.

Sovereign Court

Just wish I could a ruling on it. As I see is wolf bite & trip happen at the same time so why does an AoO attack split wolf bite & trip.

Sczarni

lantzkev wrote:
Quote:
It does not solve anything, and I've seen two different interpretations of what it means in the grander scheme of free actions.
It solves everything when you're not worried if other people are confused about something and only focus on what's important... what the rules say. (relevant points I've already posted and the above cements it)

If you read the FAQ thread you'll find how ironic it is that you believe the Snap Shot FAQ is so clear.

There are two interpretations of it, as well. Both are also legitimate, and both are used to further that side's argument regarding free actions outside of your turn.

One is your stance, that free actions may be made as part of another action, even when it isn't your turn (loading a bow). People with your view of the Snap Shot FAQ extrapolate that to mean you may also make a Grab or Trip attempt with a natural attack on an AoO when it isn't your turn.

They believe this is crystal clear. No room for interpretation (sound familiar?)

And then there's the other camp, which points to the fact that you need a feat in order to use a free action outside of your turn. They point out, correctly, that free actions may only be taken when it is your turn, and that it is bad precedent to base a general rule on the existence of the Snap Shot feat.

If you feel strongly on the issue, please comment in the other thread. You'll feel bad if you don't and the FAQ doesn't come down on your side.

1 to 50 of 69 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / animal companion and the use of armor proficiency feat All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.