dilligaff wrote: Just wish I could a ruling on it. As I see is wolf bite & trip happen at the same time so why does an AoO attack split wolf bite & trip. It's a tough question.
In real life we can't imagine a wolf not tripping with its bite.
In game terms, the Trip is a "free action". Many people believe you may only take free actions on your turn. Others believe that free actions may be taken during other actions regardless of who's turn it is, but the rules aren't really clear on which practice takes precedence.
Have you guys clicked the FAQ button in the other thread yet?
If a AFQ hammer drop and I'm on the losing side that's ok. Just would like a ruling on it. If I'm wrong why cry about.
dilligaff wrote: Ok thanks guys and girls. Didn't know this such hot subject. And I see that everybody is torn on this. I'm sure about one thing seeing all these stars. Im not a know it all and that's why iv asked. You're good to go dilligaff, just no tripping when someone is standing up.
Nefreet wrote: Have you guys clicked the FAQ button in the other thread yet? No, and I don't plan to. It doesn't need any more clicks, and especially not for such a fabricated issue as this.
I don't think years of the same question being asked over and over again is a "fabricated issue".
There is absolutely no harm in clicking that button.
Nefreet wrote:
Except the rules on this aren't clear. That's why we're trying to get it FAQ'd. You may think they are, but in reality, so does the person who holds a view opposite yours.
There is no rule that answers your question. However, the Snap Shot rule is clear. The FAQ that addresses the Snap Shot rule clarifies what is already true. The FAQ is not an errata of Snap Shot, it points out something that is true: As long as loading a weapon is a free action, you can take multiple AoO's with Snap Shot + Combat Reflexes. This is an implicit rule that a Free Action can be used during an AoO. I'm going to repeat what I said: The FAQ is clarifying something that was ALREADY true.
Snap shot does not make an exception to the Free Action rules. It doesn't even mention Free Actions. The FAQ is not changing any rules. It does not create an exception to the free action rules.
Quote: And for the record, you two are arguing with the wrong person here. *I* am of the camp that believes you *can* use the Grab or Trip ability on an AoO, but as you'll see in the other thread (which is where we should really be having this discussion) many people firmly believe you can't. Once again, the fact that people refuse to recognize the implications of Snap Shot + CR does not prove the rule is unclear.
The vast majority of the world believed the world was flat at one point and that the Earth was the center of the universe. Even after people produced empirical evidence to the contrary, people clung to their beliefs. The fact that a handful of posters disagree with something doesn't constitute much.
Quote: And, until an FAQ is issued, they are free to run their tables like that. By that logic, I can ask for a FAQ on drawing ammo as a free action and until it is answered, I can do what I want as a GM. This wouldn't be the first time a GM insisted the rules were unclear simply so they could do what they wanted. There was a GM at PaizoCon who insisted we couldn't check for traps twice because when we didn't find something we were convinced there was no trap. So a GM will try and do what they want regardless.
N N 959 wrote: Nefreet wrote: And for the record, you two are arguing with the wrong person here. *I* am of the camp that believes you *can* use the Grab or Trip ability on an AoO, but as you'll see in the other thread (which is where we should really be having this discussion) many people firmly believe you can't. Once again, the fact that people refuse to recognize the implications of Snap Shot + CR does not prove the rule is unclear.
The vast majority of the world believed the world was flat at one point and that the Earth was the center of the universe. Even after people produced empirical evidence to the contrary, people clung to their beliefs. The fact that a handful of posters disagree with something doesn't constitute much. Please realize that when you make absurd comparisons such as "people used to think the world was flat" that the other side is equally capable of making the same absurd comparison, which leaves neither side any further than when they began.
Likewise dismissing opposing views simply because they are, opposing, doesn't work either.
N N 959 wrote: Nefreet wrote: And, until an FAQ is issued, they are free to run their tables like that. By that logic, I can ask for a FAQ on drawing ammo as a free action and until it is answered, I can do what I want as a GM. This wouldn't be the first time a GM insisted the rules were unclear simply so they could do what they wanted. Are there years of repeated questions and two solid opposing views on being able to draw ammo as a free action?
No.
The game doesn't suddenly get put on hold. GMs will continue to run as they have been. If a ruling is issued, some GMs (and players) will have to change their tactics and practices.
Nefreet wrote:
Please realize that when you make absurd comparisons such as "people used to think the world was flat" that the other side is equally capable of making the same absurd comparison, which leaves neither side any further than when they began.
The comparison isn't absurd, it's spot on. It points out that no matter what the truth is, there are people who aren't going to accept it.
Telling me that people who i think can't follow logic think I am the one that can't follow logic, is not a compelling argument. I don't care what they think.
Quote: Likewise dismissing opposing views simply because they are, opposing, doesn't work either. I dismiss them because their logic is flawed. When someone tells me 1+1=3, I am going to dismiss them. I don't need to convince them I am right or even debate the issue to be justified in doing so. And no, I don't care if they do the same to me, and in fact I wish they would so I wouldn't need to waste time responding to them.
Nefreet wrote:
Are there years of repeated questions and two solid opposing views on being able to draw ammo as a free action?
No.
Which makes that GMs ruling on checking for traps all the more unjustified and evidence that GMs will do what they want regardless. They certainly don't need a FAQ on a rule to do it.
Flat Earth Society.
So we should start teaching our kids the earth may be flat because this group has been arguing it since 2004?
I'm going to stop posting in this thread. Again, you're arguing with the wrong person. I've brought attention to the FAQ thread in question multiple times, and the discussion should really be taken over there. I realize you may not want to wade through several pages of debate, but if you feel your interpretation of the rules is correct, and you want to show everyone else how silly their arguments are, check out the other thread. I'm sure they'll be happy to oblige you with discussion.
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Iv been to it. And I saw more info that back both sides. Thank you for your time.
Yes, in any event, thanks for the FYI on the thread.
Nefreet wrote: lantzkev wrote: Quote: It does not solve anything, and I've seen two different interpretations of what it means in the grander scheme of free actions. It solves everything when you're not worried if other people are confused about something and only focus on what's important... what the rules say. (relevant points I've already posted and the above cements it) If you read the FAQ thread you'll find how ironic it is that you believe the Snap Shot FAQ is so clear.
There are two interpretations of it, as well. Both are also legitimate, and both are used to further that side's argument regarding free actions outside of your turn.
One is your stance, that free actions may be made as part of another action, even when it isn't your turn (loading a bow). People with your view of the Snap Shot FAQ extrapolate that to mean you may also make a Grab or Trip attempt with a natural attack on an AoO when it isn't your turn.
They believe this is crystal clear. No room for interpretation (sound familiar?)
And then there's the other camp, which points to the fact that you need a feat in order to use a free action outside of your turn. They point out, correctly, that free actions may only be taken when it is your turn, and that it is bad precedent to base a general rule on the existence of the Snap Shot feat.
If you feel strongly on the issue, please comment in the other thread. You'll feel bad if you don't and the FAQ doesn't come down on your side. If they sky is blue and I tell you it's orange, I'm wrong regardless of how fervently I believe it. Likewise in this, I have two clear rules that provide the frame work to have a wolf bite as an AoO and trip with that bite if it lands. You (and I won't bother reading through pages and pages of that) can't provide one quote to refute my stance, just "well others think it doesn't work and they are just as legit" which is a horrible stance to take in any debate.
lantzkev wrote: anyone that tells you that you can't perform an action that's part of an attack, is just being pedantic in their readings.
Quote: Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM. You may take this action, because the bite attack has a special rider that when you take that action you may as a free action trip if it hits.
Regardless of other semantic arguments about free actions, this one has no merit here.
Let me see if I get this right, you call me pedantic because I say that because the Trip special ability calls out specifically that it is a free action to use, and you can't use a free action when it's not your turn, then you turn around and say that a sentence that is meant to state that taking a free action does not interfere with your ability to take other actions instead means that you can take free actions during other actions.
Pot, kettle, black. Perhaps we should avoid using borderline insulting language, shall we?
So, if I can take a free action during another action, could I use Quick Draw on a character with Improved Unarmed Strike (just so he threatens while unarmed) to draw my weapon as part of the Attack of Opportunity? Could I instead use two free actions (it does say one or more) to drop the weapon I'm holding, then Quick Draw another prior to the attack? Or maybe the archer provoked because he wanted to move away before he shot at me, so can I fall prone as part of my AoO for the AC boost? I mean, the sentence you quoted, assuming it means what you claim it means, does not place any restrictions on what free actions I can take during what actions I'm using, so it must be fair game, right?
The Trip special ability states that you make the trip attempt as a free action, not as part of the triggering attack, and it does not have any language to override the "no free actions if it isn't your turn" rule, therefore I am inclined to say no, you cannot use it on an AoO.
As to Snap Shot, I've read the FAQ, and I'm not entirely convinced that it was supposed to set a precedent; if it was, then they probably should have outright stated so. As it is, it appears to be a specific ruling meant to clarify that specific case; the very fact that it doesn't mention free actions actually supports this.
And now you've met the opposing side.
Quote: Could I instead use two free actions (it does say one or more) to drop the weapon I'm holding, then Quick Draw another prior to the attack? Or maybe the archer provoked because he wanted to move away before he shot at me, so can I fall prone as part of my AoO for the AC boost? I mean, the sentence you quoted, assuming it means what you claim it means, does not place any restrictions on what free actions I can take during what actions I'm using, so it must be fair game, right? I actually see no reason you couldn't drop prone as part of your AoO. or drop prone at any point to be honest. As to the quick draw, are you doing them before or after your attack, because if you do it before it's not part of the action.
SCPRedMage wrote:
So, if I can take a free action during another action, could I use Quick Draw on a character with Improved Unarmed Strike (just so he threatens while unarmed) to draw my weapon as part of the Attack of Opportunity?
Pretending that you are legitimately asking a question,
Yes. You can use Quick Draw as part of your AoO. The rules don't prohibit you from taking a free action as part of your AoO.
Quote: Could I instead use two free actions (it does say one or more) .... The number of free actions you can take beyond the first is subject to GM discretion, regardless of when you can take them. I would have no problem using Quick Draw, attacking, then dropping prone. Another GM might have a problem and the rules would technically allow a GM to say only one free action.
Quote: I mean, the sentence you quoted, assuming it means what you claim it means, does not place any restrictions on what free actions I can take during what actions I'm using, so it must be fair game, right? Correct. If it's a free action, the rules allow you to take it during an AoO, so long as you do take an AoO.
Quote: The Trip special ability states that you make the trip attempt as a free action, not as part of the triggering attack Semantics. The stat line says
Wolf attack stat line wrote: bite +2 (1d6+1 plus trip) See that? It's in parenthesis with the damage. The trip and the damage are "part of" a successful attack.
Quote: and it does not have any language to override the "no free actions if it isn't your turn" rule... There is no such rule. That's an interpretation that's 100% incorrect because Snap Shot + Combat Reflexes doesn't work if you can't use a Free Action during an AoO. I don't know why you keep ignoring that.
Quote: As to Snap Shot, I've read the FAQ, and I'm not entirely convinced that it was supposed to set a precedent; It isn't suppose to set a precedent because the FAQ isn't making new rules...it's clarifying something that is already true, but not stated explicitly.
Quote: if it was, then they probably should have outright stated so. What is the disconnect here? It specifically states that if loading a weapon is a free action, then SS+CR=all the AoO's you take. How is that not stating something explicitly? The FAQ explicitly answers the question stated in the FAQ.
Quote: As it is, it appears to be a specific ruling meant to clarify that specific case; the very fact that it doesn't mention free actions actually supports this. Wait what?
Have you read the FAQ?
Snap Shot FAQ wrote: Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat. Claiming this some special case is baseless. The requirement is that loading is, and I quote, "a free action." Basic logic says that this means a free action can be executed during the AoO attack. In fact, multiple free actions can be executed when it's not your turn...so long as they are part of another action.
Using your logic against you, if SS+CR was an exception to the prohibition on Free Actions during an AoO that you claim it is, then they would explicitly state that loading your bow is an exception to the rules. They sure as hell wouldn't clarify it by allowing it so long as it is a free action.
N N 959, do you mind if I quote you in the other thread?
Be my guest. I think Remy has probably said everything I've said, but people are simply ignoring him. So I doubt I'm adding anything to the discussion.
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