So for those who don't know:
These guys seems rather powerful. of which I am not complaining about (sometimes I miss useful prestege classes) but yeah. What do you guys think? The evangelist in particulair seems interesting with the Aligned Class ability. I can see a lot of potential for abuse with that class ability with all the different classes around. The ability to get your domain spells as SLAs also seems extremely powerful (from the exalted class). On top of that, getting the Deific Obediences early is kinda nice.
So again, what do you guys think?
Oddly enough, RAW getting the extra domain while very nice for getting SLAs is a bit tricky if you aren't a cleric when it comes to the abilities. Since many abilities are written specifically for cleric levels, you may need to look hard for abilities that don't or have the 3+Wis a day format. That being said SLA domain spells can be amazing, especially with something like the Resurrection subdomain. I definitely think we'll see a lot more Cleric and Oracles taking levels of Exalted. The major loss is really only capstone (which may not matter) and Favored Class bonuses.
Evangelist is a bit trickier due to the one level loss on aligned class (a minor thing but a serious consideration), but I can see it being used to great effect.
Design Manager
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I like Exalted a lot, of the two Evangelist is the only one that I actually have any concerns about. Aligned Class is a bonkers powerful ability considering that the Evangelist has pretty decent class abilities of its own (plus there's that running conversation about using it to advance another prestige class and all the craziness that causes).
Frankly I was super excited to see these ultra-customizable PrCs for integrating your characters faith into their build and distinguishing them from the standard classes. The third class introduced in that book, the Sentinel, is one of my favorites since you can enter it with pretty much any class at all and get some decent and themey abilities.
Evangelist is susceptible to the Aasimar SLA early entry shenanigan. By level 12 a Zen Archer Evangelist of Erastil could apply Wis+Str to Damage and get Wisx2 to Attack while using a Composite LongBow within 30 feet. Just Wis to Damage if you argue that Erastil's Boon3 only applies to regular Longbows.
I'm a huge fan of Aligned Class, since it makes the Evangelist a viable option for classes that are otherwise hugely reliant on class features to function. I hope to see something like it in more prestige classes in the future.
That said, Wizard 3/Evangelist X is an amazingly good skill monkey.
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It's worth noting that in PFS you can't use Early Entry on Evangelist. And even if you can, you only get to do it after 3rd level, not 1st, since you need three skill ranks for Deific Obedience.
Evangelist in general is very nice, but a bit overhyped, IMO. I had some post that effect...ah, here they are.
Quoted for ease:
How is this class ability not totally broken!? Even if you discount that it may let you progress a prestige class, it is still literally better than going straight classed nearly every time!
What on earth was the writer thinking? Choosing ONE class ability of a prior class would have been pretty powerful, but getting ALL of them!? Talk about power creep!
Discuss.
Let's see what everyone loses and gains:
Everyone loses a level of all Class features and all Favored Class bonuses, to gain a medium BAB, 6 skill points per level, a good Reflex and poor other Saves, a few minor bonuses from the actual Evangelist class features, and d8 HD.
So, let's look at some classes:
That gives a Wizard medium BAB and more skill points (as well as the Evangelist Class Features)...in exchange for a caster level. That's...maybe worth it, but losing a CL always hurts.
As a Cleric or other Divine caster, basically it gives skill points (and the few class features Evangelist has) at the cost of a level of casting. That doesn't sound worth it mechanically.
As a Full BAB class you give up 3 points of BAB, a level of class features, favored class bonuses, and 1 HP a level (2 for a Barbarian), for skills (except Ranger and slayer who don't even get that) and a few class bonuses. That's...mediocre at best.
As a Rogue, you give up 2 skill points per level, your Favored Class bonus, and a delay in class features for...uh, the various small buffs the class gives. That doesn't sound good at all.
Warpriest and Monk because of how their BAB works, do a lot better (though the Monk loses out on Saves). And Bard and Inquisitor don't lose a lot (or gain a lot). And so on and so forth.
That...doesn't look too bad.
Really, it's a decent Prestige Class, but giving up that level of stuff hurts, and it's built on the BAB, HD, and Saves of a Rogue, only with fewer skills...that's not a particularly nice chassis to throw class abilities onto. It's better than a Wizard's chassis, mind you,...
Oh! And I forgot to mention something else: You lose all Class Features for a day if you miss your Obedience. That includes Aligned Class. Ouch.
I dont know what kind of things is the obidiences are but it seems like all the power og these PrCs is handling on doing this daily thing. If it is likely it will be missed from time to time it seems like it May be a high Price to pay and if not then it seem a bit on the good side.
Obediences typically require a period (anywhere between a few minutes and an hour depending on the deity) of quiet (or in some cases not so quiet) reflection or meditation while performing an activity appropriate for the deity.
As an example Irori asks you to spend 20 minutes doing physical exercise and martial arts training, 20 minutes reading a book you have not read before, and 20 minutes braiding a length of hair and reflecting on the order of things. This is one of the more onerous obediences.
It's roughly similar to the amount of time a spellcaster needs to prepare his spells each morning - ie it can potentially be an issue, but it should happen rarely.
*Edit* Blah, Ninja'd
I dont know what kind of things is the obidiences are but it seems like all the power og these PrCs is handling on doing this daily thing. If it is likely it will be missed from time to time it seems like it May be a high Price to pay and if not then it seem a bit on the good side.
Each diety has it's own prescribed ritual to perform the Obediences. Most of them are pretty simple and players would have no problems doing them on a daily basis. For example, Iomedae's is just hanging a holy symbol from your weapon and praying. Shelynites do an Arts & Crafts montage and then either give or leave it for someone else. Gorum's donning your heaviest set of metal armor, bellowing out a prayer, proclaiming your victories, and getting the killing blow on anyone who dares to interrupt you.
Some of them are difficult to fit into the daily life of an adventure. The ritual for Ragathiel is slaying a wrongdoer who has been proven to have committed evil or unlawful deeds. For Lamashtu you have torture someone to a gruesomely painful death, rip out one of their bones, and sharpen it enough to leave a scar when you cut yourself with it.
*Edit* Blah, Ninja'd
Only because you spent more time doing research than I did ;)
Lamashtu's obedience is indeed a pain, but it's quite unusual in that it's so uncompromising. Most of the deities that have an obedience that require specific circumstances offer an alternative if the first obedience is not a viable option.
For instance Calistria requires you to have (consensual) sex as trade for information, money or some other resource. When that's not an option, they can instead swathe themselves in yellow silk and have a revenge fantasy.
Where did you find Ragathiel's obedience? I did a search for it in the Inner Sea Gods PDF but I got zip. If there's more obediences printed in another book the Besmaran evangelist in my party would love to know about them :)
Where did you find Ragathiel's obedience? I did a search for it in the Inner Sea Gods PDF but I got zip. If there's more obediences printed in another book the Besmaran evangelist in my party would love to know about them :)
Ragathiel and many of the other Empyreal Lords have their Celestial Obediences detailed in the Chronicles of the Righteous book. Demononic Obediences for Demon Lords are in the Lords of Chaos book and Agonies Obediences are in the new Occult Mysteries book.
Unfortunately, I don't think Besmara has a published Obedience yet. Though in Wormwood Mutiny book from the the Skull and Shackles AP has a fully expanded entry for her and her church similar to how the core 20 Gods were laid out in Inner Sea Gods.
They are in the champions of good book.
Did you mean Champions of Purity? There are no Obediences in that book.
Sounds like several of the things you have to do Can become problematic you May run out of new books at a jurney( i have tried that) or be a place where Yelling your devotion out and killing the old lady that tell you to shut up May be outside the social norm.
Your Yellow silk Pyamas May be in your back of hildingwhen you hide in a Rope Trick and so on. On top of that 1 extra houre of morning preperation May be a problem in my game at least there is sometimes stuff that happen in the morning.
It's not really hype when its true for some classes. Wizards and sorcerers lose one level of progression but gain so much. Worship Nethys and get a +4 concentration check, several good SLAs, and eventual immunity to harmful low level magic for a few rounds. The class still provides more with a couple languages, lose some will and gain some reflex, boost to AC, boost to BAB, boost to hp, more skills, a few class skills, and eventually an untyped +4 to any stat and a selection of useful abilities to overcome terrain.
All at the price of 1 level of progression. Considering many PrCs slow progression of main class while providing less utility I'd say this is a good PrC and worth the hype under many instances.
The downside of the PrC is mostly not completing your obedience and losing power. At level 6 anyone can afford a ring of sustenance and many of the obediences are simple tasks. Obviously some can be detrimental, but this is a choice you're making and not a product of the class.
I will have to look more in to it to say somthing for sure but being one level behind in spells is no little thing for a wizard. And having to spend a houre in a yellow pyamas to not lose several effective levels is no little thing. Baddies will soon lean that this is the time to send the decoy and then attack when your CL 19 wizard/evangalist is a level 10 caster:)
I will have to look more in to it to say somthing for sure but being one level behind in spells is no little thing for a wizard. And having to spend a houre in a yellow pyamas to not lose several effective levels is no little thing. Baddies will soon lean that this is the time to send the decoy and then attack when your CL 19 wizard/evangalist is a level 10 caster:)It's not really hype when its true for some classes. Wizards and sorcerers lose one level of progression but gain so much. Worship Nethys and get a +4 concentration check, several good SLAs, and eventual immunity to harmful low level magic for a few rounds. The class still provides more with a couple languages, lose some will and gain some reflex, boost to AC, boost to BAB, boost to hp, more skills, a few class skills, and eventually an untyped +4 to any stat and a selection of useful abilities to overcome terrain.
All at the price of 1 level of progression. Considering many PrCs slow progression of main class while providing less utility I'd say this is a good PrC and worth the hype under many instances.
The downside of the PrC is mostly not completing your obedience and losing power. At level 6 anyone can afford a ring of sustenance and many of the obediences are simple tasks. Obviously some can be detrimental, but this is a choice you're making and not a product of the class.
If they're doing that then they'd do the same thing except when they regain spells. A wizard with no spells is an easier target than a 10th level one with spells...
If they're doing that then they'd do the same thing except when they regain spells. A wizard with no spells is an easier target than a 10th level one with spells...I will have to look more in to it to say somthing for sure but being one level behind in spells is no little thing for a wizard. And having to spend a houre in a yellow pyamas to not lose several effective levels is no little thing. Baddies will soon lean that this is the time to send the decoy and then attack when your CL 19 wizard/evangalist is a level 10 caster:)It's not really hype when its true for some classes. Wizards and sorcerers lose one level of progression but gain so much. Worship Nethys and get a +4 concentration check, several good SLAs, and eventual immunity to harmful low level magic for a few rounds. The class still provides more with a couple languages, lose some will and gain some reflex, boost to AC, boost to BAB, boost to hp, more skills, a few class skills, and eventually an untyped +4 to any stat and a selection of useful abilities to overcome terrain.
All at the price of 1 level of progression. Considering many PrCs slow progression of main class while providing less utility I'd say this is a good PrC and worth the hype under many instances.
The downside of the PrC is mostly not completing your obedience and losing power. At level 6 anyone can afford a ring of sustenance and many of the obediences are simple tasks. Obviously some can be detrimental, but this is a choice you're making and not a product of the class.
but the wizard will still have the spells he have left from the Day before and be CL 20. The evangalist is not so lucky.
Ring of sustenance opens up 6 hours to do your obedience which is plenty of time.
Inscribe blessings to Nethys, arcane formulae, and lines of prayer on a blank parchment. Don’t inscribe a complete spell—only notations sufficient to potentially spur a reader to study magic in an effort to complete the incantation. At the culmination of your obedience, cast any spell or spell-like ability or activate a spell completion or spell trigger magic item. Gain a +4 sacred or profane bonus on concentration checks. The type of bonus depends on your alignment—if you’re neither good nor evil, you must choose either sacred or profane the first time you perform your obedience, and this choice can’t be changed.However long it takes you to fill a single sheet of parchment with blessings to Nethys, arcane formulae, and lines of prayer. Then cast a 0 level spell or throw up Mage armor for the day.
It could be argued that you're spending some money inscribing arcane formulae, but RAW doesn't require it. Just notations sufficient to potentially spur a reader to study magic in an effort to complete the incantation.
yes this seems a bit on the easy and un clear side.
Sounds like several of the things you have to do Can become problematic you May run out of new books at a jurney( i have tried that) or be a place where Yelling your devotion out and killing the old lady that tell you to shut up May be outside the social norm.
Your Yellow silk Pyamas May be in your back of hildingwhen you hide in a Rope Trick and so on. On top of that 1 extra houre of morning preperation May be a problem in my game at least there is sometimes stuff that happen in the morning.
Generally speaking I'd be surprised if a character let himself get caught out in that way. A player might forget to take something like that into consideration, but in-character it seems fairly obvious that you'd need to make preparations to continue doing the daily obedience you've already been doing for years. Even if the player might not immediately recognize the importance of it, the character would take his devotion seriously,
As an example, a friend of mine made a gillman character for a Rise of the Runelords campaign, but hadn't read the race description as closely as he perhaps should have. Therefore he found himself in the Hook mountains area with no access to water. This is problematic since Gillmen die from organ failure in 4d6 hours if they don't fully submerge themselves in water each day.
The character in question was a seasoned adventurer (level 8 if I recall correctly) and had a good amount of WBL, so I hand-waved the problem and helped him design a cheap custom item of Create Water. In my opinion it doesn't make sense for a gillman to travel that far from the ocean and not have guaranteed access to water, much like we wouldn't send astronauts into space without making sure their air tanks are filled up. I don't want to punish or eliminate a character because the player was in a hurry when he made it.
Which doesn't mean the GM can't go out of his way to screw the player over (LOL your spellbook was ruined when you swam across the moat, no takesies backsies), but unless it's "that" kind of a game he really shouldn't.
Wow, the obedience for Sarenrae is unfortunate when underground.
Wow, the obedience for Sarenrae is unfortunate when underground.
Think that's bad, check out Ragathiel's Celestial Obedience for....wherever you happen to be.