I'm worldcrafting, and want to create a place where permanent magic items are special and rare.
What do you think of the following ruling ... would this do it? How would living with this ruling affect you as a player?
Magic items cannot be freely bought.
The feats Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion and Craft Wand can be taken and work as normal to create temporary magic items.
The feats for creating permanent magic items (Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rod, Craft Staff, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring) are automatically received when the the prerequisites for them are met.
Creating a permanent magic item requires the creator to invest part of their life force. Each permanent magic item created drains the creator’s Con score permanently by 1 point. This loss cannot be reversed by any means, including Restoration.
Exception: Magical properties may be added to a wizard’s bonded object without requiring an investment of Con. Restrictions for the bonded object remain as usual (its magical properties only function for the creating wizard, and are lost if the item is replaced or its creator dies).
I'm actually not sure what to do with wands. They're not permanent magic items, but they are a significant force I'd like to cut down on. I'm not going to make someone use a point of Con for something that expires after 50 charges. One option is to keep them as temporary items but nerf them by reducing the number of charges. Another is to make them permanent items that require a point of Con, but can be recharged. A third is to just drop wands completely ... something that would definitely alter the flavour of the world significantly (not necessarily a bad thing).
I'm also considering a couple of alternatives to this rule which could alter the flavour of it ...
- allow a point of Con to be used from ANY sentient creature instead of from the item's creator (creating conflicts for Good item creators; even if the Fighter would give up a point of Con to have his magic sword, would this count as the creator causing harm to the Fighter. It would also create opportunities for Evil casters, who would seek out creatures whose life force they could use in creating magic items. My concern with this ruling is it might encourage there to be more magic items than I'm intending from this rule in the first place. Maybe with this option the feats should still be required as well).
- a different ability score may better reflect the drain on the creator (Cha? Str? Wis?), though I think I'm happy with Con.
- items created in this way have the alignment of the creature whose life force was used in its creation. While not (generally) intelligent items, there would be some penalties in using the item for those of opposing alignments.
Well, if you did allow it to be any sentient creature's Con, there wouldn't actually be any real conflict for Good casters. If the fighter's agreed to it, I don't see a problem (save the issue of the fighter's effectiveness) for the caster unless they're an extreme pacifist.
Moving on, honestly, I would think that you would either see casters with big Constitution scores or few items being created at all. A normal wizard might get a headband, but probably not much else, maybe a magic sword for the fighter.
Really, I could see it as a potentially big issue for a group. Cries of the caster being selfish and such for not making the fighter a sword. But, eh. Could be a problem, could not in that regard.
Somethings to consider though: what about upgrading an item? Would taking a magic sword from +1 to +2 be another point of Con? And when would this permanent Con drain even take place? When the creation of the item is completed or when it was started?
I'll I really have to recommend is to talk with the people you'd be playing with, and remember to adjust the game accordingly. After all, things are balanced around WBL.
But, it sounds like it could prove interesting, especially if you changed it to anyone's Con.
I heard this was common in the older editions. I think 2E drained life to permanency things... I'm not sure. Few of our wizards ever crafted for pretty much that reason.
I think 3.x took xp or something I heard... never played so can't verify.
However, I can understand the idea behind it... but I don't LIKE it. It kind of breaks the world for me. Who made all those +1 swords? WHY!?!?
Wizards tend to have lower con anyway... and how much is their life worth?!!? Are they making these rings/belts/etc. for cash?? WHY!?!?
There's better ways than THAT!!!
IF someone were to do this... it wouldn't really be 'pathfinder' anymore. NOT necessarily a bad thing... I personally preferred when magic weapons came out of a treasure hoard instead of a store. However, the system is based on stats increasing and pluses showing up at certain points... And eventually the stat blocks of monsters are just waves of people with +1 sword, +1 armor...
It will take a lot of rewriting and you'll have to decide if what you gain is worth what you're putting into it.
It COULD just be as easy as saying "Guys... I don't like the crafting rules, Please don't make crafters..."
As a player I would do that for a GM.
But, it sounds like it could prove interesting, especially if you changed it to anyone's Con.
I think I will change it to the Con from a willing donor. There should also be a way to take it from unwilling donors, but I'm not sure on the mechanics ... maybe just a Will save.
Regarding the mechanics ... let's say that the Con drain takes place during a ritual lasting an hour once the construction of the item is completed, which activates the item's magical abilities. (It also makes it harder to get it from unwilling donors, as they'd need to be kept there for the whole hour ritual. If they made their save, it'd be another hour to try again).
It would make people feel invested in their magic items (particularly in-character) as part of their life is invested in it. I guess mechanically a Fighter would be very happy to go from Con 15 to 14 to get a magic item as they wouldn't receive any penalty, but 14 to 13 would sting a bit.
Upgrades: I hadn't actually thought of that. Let's say that Con is only required in the initial creation of the item, but upgrading the item requires the original donor to be present for another hour-long activation ritual.
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I think it will work as long as you use the first alternative, to allow any sentient creature to supply the point of con. It's usually the mundanes, like fighters, whom need magic items, but they don't meet the prereqs for the craft feats. So they need the items but can't make them. Full casters on the other hand are much less dependent on magic items due to their spells, so they can make them but don't need them all that much. The fighter has a real problem there, what could he possibly offer to the wizard which is as valuable as the wizard's life force? So I'd certainly use the first alternative you mentioned.
As for the ability score, con is probably best as everybody needs that.
But I do see a problem. What if the mundanes sacrifice a lot of con to create magic items and then die due to their low con? If the party manages to salvage the items and the dead characters are replaced by new characters then effectively they haven't lost con while they have gained magic items.
So you might need something extra there. For example, how about making it so that if the one who supplied con to the item, when it was created, is dead, then the item's magic cannot be used until it is linked to somebody else's life force? In the above example this would mean that the new characters would have to sacrifice some of their con before the magic items could be used again. The evil caster might have a dungeon filled with low con slaves, which he used to create the magic items but has to keep alive if he wants to continue using the items. If an item remains unliked for a long enough time then it could lose all it's magic permanently, reverting to a mundane item. That way you can still keep the amount of magic items low. You could also introduce temporary damage to the crafter's casting stat (could take a few weeks/months to recover, spells don't help to recover from it) so they have to think carefully about what they create.
Hmmm. Don't like too much. I would rarely craft items in such situation. If your group is OK, no problem I suppose. I'd like to suggest another way, though, as I see rather strange gaining automatic item creation feats and be limited this way. So I suggest you something like midnight rpg rules: to create a magic item, you need to find a power nexus, that has stored magical energy (that recharges slowly along the days) and that allow to create some items different for every nexus (one can be used to craft weapons and armors, another allow rings, and so on - basically each nexus has the item creation feat binded to it). Sounds interesting?
However, I can understand the idea behind it... but I don't LIKE it. It kind of breaks the world for me. Who made all those +1 swords? WHY!?!?
Wizards tend to have lower con anyway... and how much is their life worth?!!? Are they making these rings/belts/etc. for cash?? WHY!?!?
There's better ways than THAT!!!
This is for a different world with a different feel, not Golarion.
The obvious answer to those WHY questions is ... that it wouldn't have happened. One of the ideas behind this is that the world won't be swamped with minor magic items. There WON'T be 'all those +1 swords' in this world.
Of course no wizard is going to churn out magic items for cash if it costs them Con. If it's costing them their own Con, they'll do a few (at most) items because they're important
- they will get a very significant benefit from the item
- they love magic and want to create their magnum opus; a great work of magic that will survive when they're gone
- they're devoted to the person they make the item for (a wizard might be happy to, probably only once make a powerful sword for the king they love, or a special item for their child or beloved apprentice)
Also, the average power level of magic items will go up. People won't want to waste their life force / Con for a minor item when they could wait and use the point of Con for a better item.
(Conversely, encounters would be designed - or at the very least adapted - to be appropriate to the adjusted power level of the parties who won't be carrying half of a magic supermarket with them).
Hmmm. Don't like too much. I would rarely craft items in such situation. If your group is OK, no problem I suppose. I'd like to suggest another way, though, as I see rather strange gaining automatic item creation feats and be limited this way.
The intention of this is that people would rarely craft items.
The automatic item creation feats are simply because under these rules crafting is so limited anyway, so it seems excessive to make someone also use a feat up, just to create one or two items under each feat in total. (I could equally have said that the feats are no longer necessary or no longer exist but the level requirements stay as before - same effect).
So I suggest you something like midnight rpg rules: to create a magic item, you need to find a power nexus, that has stored magical energy (that recharges slowly along the days) and that allow to create some items different for every nexus (one can be used to craft weapons and armors, another allow rings, and so on - basically each nexus has the item creation feat binded to it). Sounds interesting?
It does sound interesting; I like it. It won't fit with what I have in mind for the current world, but I may use it in the future.
If you use the rule with willing donors. And pehaps with the extra rule that it only World as long as the donor lives. You May get somthing interesting with friends and admieres acting as donors and enemies assasinating at donors before going after the Real threat.
Like in the runelords books just different.
For example, how about making it so that if the one who supplied con to the item, when it was created, is dead, then the item's magic cannot be used until it is linked to somebody else's life force? In the above example this would mean that the new characters would have to sacrifice some of their con before the magic items could be used again. The evil caster might have a dungeon filled with low con slaves, which he used to create the magic items but has to keep alive if he wants to continue using the items. If an item remains unliked for a long enough time then it could lose all it's magic permanently, reverting to a mundane item. That way you can still keep the amount of magic items low. You could also introduce temporary damage to the crafter's casting stat (could take a few weeks/months to recover, spells don't help to recover from it) so they have to think carefully about what they create.
There are parts I do and don't like about this ... I'll do some thinking on this one.
The disadvantages
- no finding of ancient magic items (I *like* ancient magic items)
- miss out on the flavour of an item having part of the life force of someone deceased in it (a character wearing the ring that still has part of their father's life force within it).
The advantages
- lots of flavour and could create some plot lines (weaken the evil wizard by identifying and killing the creatures who power his powerful magic items).
I don't think many role players would try something like having a disposable party member used for creating many items and then killed off ... some 'roll players' might but I wouldn't foresee it being a major problem.
What if you could return the point of CON by completely and irreversibly destroying the magic item?
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What if you could return the point of CON by completely and irreversibly destroying the magic item?
I've already been considering that and it seems reasonable in terms of both in-world logic and gaming. It might require another ritual - at the very least it should need the Con donor to be present when the item is destroyed.
I'm unsure on it though; a main justification behind the whole Con idea is to dissuade people (PCs and NPCs) from creating magic items; making it a two way street could undo that (though of course they'd still lose the money they invested in creating the item).
Maybe destroying the item - so their life force is no longer locked in the item - would make it possible to restore the ability using Restoration (instead of automatically restoring on destruction) - the cost and level of that spell would prevent the reversal being too trivial. Think I might go with this one ...
2) If the Con point is taken unwillingly, killing the creature that granted it can cause the point to rebound out of the object. By contrast, if the point was given willingly, it doesn't leak out of the object in the event of the donor's death.
I like this very much and am definitely going to use it - thank you. It allows for ancient magical items while also making for powerful evil casters with an original vulnerability (and some moral conflicts - is it justifiable to kill the unwilling victim in order to prevent the BBEG from killing/exploiting others? different characters/alignments will have different answers).
3) Crafting an intelligent item requires a point of Cha by the same mechanics.
i may use this one ... certainly it makes sense for intelligent items to pick up some of the character of the donor.
4) Some magics may be able to "hold" even an unwilling Con point in the event of the donor's death.
in fact ... to achieve this they might require the donors death during the activation ritual. Items created in this way may sometimes (dying victim gets to make a Will save) inherit the donors intelligence - becoming intelligent items, presumably something the creator wishes to avoid. This risk of creating intelligent, uncooperative items means that keeping the donors alive is a safer option, even for evil casters.
Implications: It opens up a difference between "good" and "bad" items; the evil Wizard can have the glaring weakness that his magic items can be "turned off" if you kill the people charging them while still having the option of "ancient" artifacts charged by a being that is currently dead. Furthermore, if forcing the Con point, it gives particular incentive to get one from a being that won't die easily, especially not from old age. As with anything, "there's an exception to every rule" so you may be able to magically super-glue an unwilling spirit to the item.
Some good ideas - thanks again.
One option I use is that the past was a time of great magics, few of which can be cast today. So, there can be as many magic items stuck away in dungeons and lost cities as you need (usually the more powerful ones). For example, no one can create the Sword of MacGuffin, but it still exists where the ancient hero Tyriopoles fell, deep in the heart of the Lavastone Mountains.
I would allow the wizard to use his own Con, or others use their Con at something like a 1:5 ratio. So you can still have evil wizards and cults doing their thing.
FYI, the Adventurer Conqueror King system uses a "low" magic world by default. The costs of creating are extremely high, so you don't get wizards "making" +1 swords - that's why ya gotta go adventuring!
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Iron Kingdoms used a rule a lot like this.
If an item went over a certain gp threshold, there was a chance your soul got sucked into the item (which made it intelligent, I think).
Their whole magitech was based on the idea of building lots of tiny little items that could work together to be like a big one.
Every time you found a +N sword there was a chance the caster had died making it... so there were very few cheap items. If there's a chance you're going to die, you take the chance building the biggest item you can.
Same thing might happen to you; "I just heave a headband", yes, but its about 15 items crammed into one because the real cost is the point of CON.
Not so keen on the point of con because I can see ways to rort that system.
Allowing items to be made from unwilling creatures will mean that only evil people will have magical gear.....
And what about liches or magic casting creatures that are undead?
Dont do it, it will ultimatly be ugly
Just ban crafting feats. The price of a point of CON for half priced magical items is almost never worth it. I shall spend the point of CON for a belt of CON... oh wait. I just don't like creating weird mechanical rules to change an aspect of a system meant to operate with magic. If you want a low magic rule and don't want to play an actual low magic game, like Pathfinder, just ban the feats. Drop what magic treasure you deem worthy for the game.
I don't want to ban item crafting, just make it much rarer.
Also, this approach adds a certain flavour to magical items and some plot possibilities around them that I'm liking.
A belt of Con still might be OK ... you can only wear one, and if you rely on it it's potentially a serious vulnerability (Belt of Con + 6, and five more magic items drained from your Con ... take the belt off to wash and you're weakened - and that's probably easy for your enemies to work out. Have it stolen or sundered and you're in big trouble).
If you do this, remove the need to have the feats in the first place (at least for the permanent items). No one is going to take a feat to make three items.
You could make it 2 points of Con Drain (recoverable with 100gp + restoration), but that probably just delays things instead of changing them like you want.
Could also add Ley Lines that can empower the creation of items so often or so many times without the Con loss.
If you do this, remove the need to have the feats in the first place (at least for the permanent items). No one is going to take a feat to make three items.
This was discussed further up ... I'm either giving the feats away free or removing the need for them; the effect is the same.
First item the caster makes for himself: Belt of Constitution.
which may be fine ... however, if they used a +6 belt so they can create 6 magical items (including the belt) and therefore are -6 Con without it, they are extremely vulnerable if the belt is sundered, stolen, or they have an enemy who tracks them down when they're not wearing it.
Also, even with a +6 Con belt, we'd limit somewhat the total number of permanent magic items that someone would invest in compared to many Pathfinder character builds I've seen.
If Belts of Mighty Constitution looked unbalanced in play testing, I'd address one side or other of the issue later.
Allowing items to be made from unwilling creatures will mean that only evil people will have magical gear.....
And what about liches or magic casting creatures that are undead?
More magic items for evil casters? I don't have a problem with that, in fact ...
Undead casters of course have no Con score, so they would ONLY be able to create magic items from unwilling victims. Which fits in fine too.
How are you handling clerical magic? I run a game were basically all of the gods are dead except for one so clerics are fairly rare and arcane magic is outlawed and dangerous
Good question. My main campaign area will be a mix of hobgoblin and human nations; hobgoblins HATE arcane magic and it's punishable with death in there lands. Players may choose hobgoblin characters, which will add some tension if a party contains a hobgoblin and an arcane caster. There's a near-balance between the threats of hobgoblin military might in the west and human magic in the east that created a peace between the two species, who have fairly good relations with each other.
I'm leaning towards more-or-less Pathfinder standard with divine magic, with just a difference in how it's described (not as magic, more as divine channeling, or prayers leading to divine intervention), but mechanically I'm currently planning to follow the standard Pathfinder rules for it.
In that setting making an item deals double the enhancement bonus or highest level spell used in the item, whichever is higher, as con damage which can be pulled from a willing or helpless third party or straight from the crafter.
I briefly considered Con loss based on the enhancement bonus, equivalent, or value of the item, but decided that would be too extreme.
The items also require unique components so you can't just churn out +1 swords you have to go out an collect fire giant blood to temper the blade with or whatever is thematic for the item. It makes item creation kind of a side quest for the party and makes their items mean more. You cherish you +3 battle Axe because it had to worked in the boiling heart blood of a red dragon that almost ate your buddy rather than picking it up in the market.
I don't know to what extent I'd use this, but it's the kind of thing I like. I don't think I want to limit them to the extent that Con loss AND crazy-difficult components would cause together though.
What if you can take arcane bond as a feat, arcane bonded items exist even after the death of their bonded person, and that they're the only way to make magic items? That means every magic item used to be the arcane bond of a spellcaster at some point in the past. Magic items would be rare, powerful, and tell a compelling story. If players want more than one magic item, they'll have to kill enemies and take their bonded item. The big bad 's magical gear are trophies he's taken from spellcasters he murdered.
Lots of entries, so just let me remind in the process of World Building: if you drain the CON/limit permanent magic items, consider the CRs of creatures to be at least +1 or +2 higher.
You may already have this in mind, however it's an important to bear in mind when creating worlds of this nature. I hope your players enjoy!
I've been doing something similar to this in my games recently. However, instead of a perminant con reduction I make my players spend a hero point in order to craft an item to represent the 'life force' expendature.
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Some interesting ideas there. Just make sure you take into account the mechanical effects. Something like that is more a trouble for martial than for casters. Without abundant magic items, the biggest mechanical difference will be AC. At level 10+, hitting will be nearly sure for all martial PC or monster. Maybe some kind of inherent bonus to AC based on HD?
Another thing to think about is that if the characters have few magic items, those few will be the most potent ones, basically the "big 6", and the flavourful ones will be near in-existent.
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]Also, even with a +6 Con belt, we'd limit somewhat the total number of permanent magic items that someone would invest in compared to many Pathfinder character builds I've seen.
If Belts of Mighty Constitution looked unbalanced in play testing, I'd address one side or other of the issue later.
With a +6 Con Belt, the wizard is going to have his BIG 6 items, giving him the a better AC, better CMD, and better saves.
If your going to meta-game it and start sundering the wizards magic items, does that mean your going to be sundering the few magic items the rest of the group has?
If not, Why? If so, you might as well run a game with zero permanent items.
Interesting idea. I think there might be ways around con drain though. I like the idea of different magic item generation systems.
So you're not really using the terminology right. Stat damage, like what I use heals naturally if slowly or with a moderately common clerical spell. If clerics are rare like my game then getting wimped for say 6 con damage is going to weaken the recipient for a few days but they will ultimately be back in fighting shape or it can be cleared with a couple of lesser restorations if they can find a cleric which would be another little mini task.
Stat drain on the other hand is bad juju and sounds more like what you're thinking of. Drain can only be restored by magic. Getting 6 points of drain puts you in a world of hurt since you can't just fort up and wait for it to wear off, you have to go out and find someone or something to fix it.
Sorry, I didn't register you wrote "Con damage" above.
What I suggested above is not the standard Con drain as defined in Pathfinder, which can be reversed using the Restoration spell, but the permanent loss of a Con point, that can't be reversed at all. (Except after destruction of the item).
The reason I use damage and rare components in that game is to make the players actually commit to what they're making. The stat damage weakens them but doesn't cripple them if they play safe and the rare component just makes the items more valuble to them personally. It also means I can have things like a +3 holy keen longsword that was cast with the life force of one of the dead god's champions, 12 con damage and a soul bound up in what would a more or less in unnoteworthy weapon in normal pathfinder makes the players cherish that weapon.
This is the kind of feel I like :) Do you decide what the components should be on a case-by-case basis, or have a set of them drawn up?
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tkul, I'm pretty sure he means CON loss - as in the pre-PF rule where Constitution forever just goes away (into the item). "Drain" in this case is a descriptive term (and an accurate one, too), rather than a mechanical term, though I can see how the confusion might arise.
EDIT: ninja'd
Also, and this is a terrifying/fascinating thought - I wonder what Asmodeus is doing with all those petitioners' CON scores before they get turned into lemures anyway, thereby avoiding the "death" clause (making, effectively, all of hell turned into a vast repository of CON-score for Asmodeus such that he can continually empower magical items... or magical item...)
And then, later, if they do die, they are, you know, lawful evil and devoted to the cause of hell... and Asmodeus, by extension. Use the system to avoid the system. Darn Asmodeus, why are you so evil!? And stop making that pair of hellish socks from soul-stuff! D:<
EDIT: You know, I could certainly see heaven doing something like this (the last step before becoming a lantern archon, may be basically freely donating all or almost all of your CON before/during/as part of the transformation and as an act of benevolence... and then you split into multiple archons, ensuring that the power you generated for all that is good by your ultimate sacrifice is really hard to negate, as well as ensuring multiple possibilities that good sentient items crop up).
With a +6 Con Belt, the wizard is going to have his BIG 6 items, giving him the a better AC, better CMD, and better saves.
If your going to meta-game it and start sundering the wizards magic items, does that mean your going to be sundering the few magic items the rest of the group has?
If not, Why? If so, you might as well run a game with zero permanent items.
I'm not talking about metagaming, just that
- rarer magic items will be a bigger theft target- if the PCs get serious enemies, those enemies will try to understand the PCs strengths and how to eliminate those strengths, thus knowledgeable or recurring enemies may target magic items (just as the PCs could, as discussed, target the source of an evil caster's items)
GMing I wouldn't deliberately target someone's +6 Con belt, but an intelligent NPC that he made an enemy of may realise it's a potential vulnerability (particularly if he's got Knowledge (Arcane)). And the players would surely realise that lowering their permanent Con that much and relying on magical Con boosts did create that vulnerability - and decide whether it was worth it or not.
I think the logical result of this would be permanent magic items would be very rare and very powerful as no wizard would spend con to create a low level permanent magic item. Everything would be staffs of magi or +10 equivalent items. The attitude would be "If I can only make 1 or two items they will be awesome". No boots of striding and springing in that world. Magic items would be game changers like Excalibur.
If as someone said above you can use someone else's con, then if only voluntary you would get a few items for fighters and other classes but they should be powerful too, "If I am spending con that sword had better be +5".
If you can forcibly use someone else's con, I would expect wizard/crafters to be seen as vampires or tyrants stealing from other sentient beings to create magic. That could make for a fun campaign where most people are very suspicious of magic.
Lots of entries, so just let me remind in the process of World Building: if you drain the CON/limit permanent magic items, consider the CRs of creatures to be at least +1 or +2 higher.
You may already have this in mind, however it's an important to bear in mind when creating worlds of this nature. I hope your players enjoy!
Already have this in mind - not to mention designing adventures that have multiple ways of achieving the objective. (There may be some monsters which are simply out of the party's league if they go the melee route - but if so there will be somewhere they can trap or ambush the monster, avoiding melee completely. Those tough guards can be distracted, or you can do some climbing to avoid them altogether, or try to bluff your way past them, or find a way to divide them up and face them one or two at a time. Players should assess whether a battle can be won easily, with difficulty, or not at all - and choose their path accordingly).
I think the logical result of this would be permanent magic items would be very rare and very powerful as no wizard would spend con to create a low level permanent magic item. Everything would be staffs of magi or +10 equivalent items. The attitude would be "If I can only make 1 or two items they will be awesome". No boots of striding and springing in that world. Magic items would be game changers like Excalibur.
Yes and no. A mid-level NPC wizard or druid, living in the countryside and facing no real dangers in life, may use his Con point or two to make some fun items that make his life easier, and wouldn't have the gold to go for a really major item. Striding and springing boots might be just the kind of thing they'd make.
Yes, any particular caster would likely want to make the best item they could - just bear in mind that many NPC casters never rise high in levels and gold but still would want to create items. They'd pick what was the the best FOR them. Some NPCs would rarely or never face martial challenges, so wouldn't create martial items.
Eventually, after the deaths of these low-mid level casters, the items will find themselves in other hands, so PCs could still find them occasionally.
If as someone said above you can use someone else's con, then if only voluntary you would get a few items for fighters and other classes but they should be powerful too, "If I am spending con that sword had better be +5".
Yes; though probably still not everyone could afford the monetary cost of the most powerful items so you'd still get a range. But for most people a +1 sword wouldn't be worth it. (Bear in mind, though, that masterwork still gets you +1 to hit).
If you can forcibly use someone else's con, I would expect wizard/crafters to be seen as vampires or tyrants stealing from other sentient beings to create magic. That could make for a fun campaign where most people are very suspicious of magic.
These attitudes will definitely go around; probably the wizards that did this forcibly would be rare, but their reputation will tar all casters in some areas.
Did you catch the idea I had above?
I saw those; interesting, but I don't think the 'attuning' option fits the flavour I have in mind.
No boots of striding and springing in that world
Also, just to clarify 'Wondrous Items' that are single use or non-rechargeable wouldn't require a point of Con to create - so nice items with flavour like Deck of Illusions, Dusts, Elixirs, Gem of Brightness, Marvellous Pigments shouldn't be restricted.
Loving this thread. Lots of great ideas.
Im trying to figure out magic items for my homebrew campaign as well, so this is a perfect thread. I didnt mention it before, but I touched on this idea (Con loss)as well as an extention of the idea im playtesting now where wizards and sorcerers can use hp to cast spells when out for the day.
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EDIT: to be clear, this is just building on the idea I had above, applying it (to some degree) to all alignments, though without the evil undertones for the non-evil alignments. Take or leave, at your option.
Although the entry doesn't note what category of outsider a given petitioner transforms into, we can presume, based on the various "CR 2" entries as well as the description under "petitioner" that in some cases the petitioner in question more or less fragments into lesser outsiders, while in others it's a one-to-one conversion (for devils, specifically, and those that are immediately promoted into "bypassing" the normal process).
That said, I'm going to suggest that - devils aside - the "fragmenting" process is what's the most important/most common, here.
* Option 1: If all the resultant outsiders (say, lantern archons) (or their later evolutions) is destroyed, the items made from the original creature's sacrifice may become intelligent.
* Option 2: Each time one of the resultant outsiders (like, say, lyrakien) (or their later evolutions) is destroyed, one (or all?) of the items have the normal chance of becoming intelligent.
Heaven/Celestia: eventually, when they are ready and have progressed through all the steps, and it is ready, a petitioner's souls steps forth into the final height of the heavens in an act of truly selfless sacrifice, and undergoes a process whereby its CON (and/or CHA) are thoroughly surrendered. The soul continues living, but as fragments of itself (usually mostly or entirely) devoid of its old self. The CON (and/or CHA) are utilized to craft all the magical weaponry of heaven - weaponry that will one day be resubmitted to one of the evolved forms of archons - perhaps even of the very archon that so selflessly gifted it for the sake of all.
Elysium/Nirvana: eventually, when a petitioner of Elysium is ready for true Enlightenment (and the benevolence that comes with that) they may choose to ascend, shedding the last remnants of their mortal life force (and/or personality) and instead reincarnating their very spirit into its next form - that of a litter of silvanshee. These silvanshee then progress as normal for their kind, as that which they shed behind is gathered up by the most ancient of agathions (the draconals) and utilized to build those things that are important for the careful nurturing of all. The enlightenment process of Elysium may well be automatic (without regard to a particular petitioner's efforts) but entirely benevolent (without malice, cruelty, or anguish). Alternatively, the shed essence might be some sort of "floating ambient CON (and/or CHA)" that eventually coalesces according to need percieved by various agathions by the (non-sentient?) "will" of the plane itself (possibly dependent entirely upon the nature of those who've undergone the enlightenment process).
Arborea/Elysium: when an individual is ready to fully embrace their inner freedom, and are no longer constrained by the bonds of their current life - when they desire to push beyond the boundaries of their own limits and/or are tired of the mundane existence as a petitioner - they begin singing their own "swan song" - a joyous melody unique to themselves - that results in them simply bursting into a kaleidoscope of lyrakien, who, literally burst into song (the same song the petitioner was just singing, quickly individualizing the various refrains until there are dozens of different songs sung) as they scatter their own way upon the breeze, each taking with them a small fragment of the CON once contained by the petitioner - a minor gift which they can (and frequently do) give away to whomever they deem worthy of such a thing. Alternatively, the CON literally flows free, the essence of a breeze or stream, or other such freely flowing thing that must later by coerced (or, for the more rigid, wrangled) into an essence whereby it may be utilized for crafting (probably crafted in a way necessarily related to the element that it transformed into, giving primacy to the individual as in all things of this realm).
Mechanus/Utopia: when a petitioner is selected and placed into the forges to become an inevitable, there very CON (and/or CHA) is separated from their essence, like dross from metal being refined... but dross that is incredibly useful as well. That dross is collected by the axiomites, whereupon they forge it into useful items that serve the axiomites and/or their inevitables quite well.
Purgatory/the Outlands: when a petitioner is finally ready to pass on, their essence eventually is shed and comes into being one with the monad, generating a cloud of pleroma aeons. The monad may then reapply the excess CON in manners that apply to the balance, although if the aeons eventually are destroyed, the items - no longer connected to the monad - are entirely random in their personas, if any.
Limbo: randomly a petitioner will suddenly burst into a (very short-lived) school of anarchic proteans. Whether or if the CON actually survives the process is entirely unknown, though rumors persist that keketars are capable of claiming essence from these exchanges and utilizing it to wildly differing effects and crafts.
Hell: Asmodeus rules all and takes all, giving nothing back... and so it is here. He claims all the CON for himself, as it's slowly beaten out of a petitioner until there is nothing left of them but a pathetic lemure. And then they are sent forth to do his will... and if and when they inevitably perish doing so, he gains yet another servant, lawful evil, and devoted to the cause of Hell, which is, of course, the cause of Asmodeus. What, exactly, he does with this CON is unknown to all but the master of lies...
Abaddon/Hades: those pathetic, awful souls fallen so low as this have little hope and less desire to continue. Still... even here, they are found useful. If their souls are not consumed, they may shed their CON upon undergoing the process of becoming a daemon, perhaps in the form of soul gems. These gems are often used in crafting by daemons or others.
Abyss: the larvae live a horrid life of squalor, filth, and discomfort, until one of them bursts into a minor horde of dretches in a profane and hideous mockery of "birth". What happens to the CON of these mindless beings is unknown, though it is often rumored that Night Hags "harvest" larvae to use for unknown purposes until, at the last, they release it back into the Abyss, and certainly demon lords are not known for gaining consent...
Some interesting ideas there. Just make sure you take into account the mechanical effects. Something like that is more a trouble for martial than for casters. Without abundant magic items, the biggest mechanical difference will be AC. At level 10+, hitting will be nearly sure for all martial PC or monster. Maybe some kind of inherent bonus to AC based on HD?
Another thing to think about is that if the characters have few magic items, those few will be the most potent ones, basically the "big 6", and the flavourful ones will be near in-existent.
Good point. As noted by another commenter, CRs will increase.
There are some other ways to improve AC; they can get a bonus from Combat Expertise (while taking a penalty on to-hit, of course), and the dodge feat gives another +1. (I think the Improved Dodge is 3rd party, but worth using here, perhaps adding Greater Dodge that goes even further. In the absence of higher AC though, possibly tower shields and tactical fighting become more attractive too, as do weakening your opponents from a distance and taking them by surprise.
idea im playtesting now where wizards and sorcerers can use hp to cast spells when out for the day.How does that play out when combined with Vampiric Touch or Infernal Healing?
so far, no problems, actually. Some have put forth the idea that these hit points should be healed naturally, others just that they shouldn't be healed via potions. We're still working on it.
what if you just made it so you can only make your level in items. period. And then if you want have a temporary drawback like -2 con or whatever then they can be drained for a while but not permanently. Another idea to consider is have Nexus of power hidden across the world that provide the only places to craft weapons.
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The problem with low magic games is that generally its a lot of handwaving and saying "i dont like magical stuff".
I feel that this is a way to railroad players.
But you are the DM, your game your rules.
But can you explain what you evision happening in your world IF the only productive way to get nagical equipment is a CON drain?
To me, it sounds like the evil wizards would have all the gear. They would spend most of their time hiding, using scry and raid to fuel the construction of magical items.
You would have more alchemists, and gun users.
While it sounds a lot like 2e, i dont know if most people would appreciate it.