The Gods have stats


Homebrew and House Rules

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Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
ElementalXX wrote:

As a side note, paizo gave stats to FREAKING CHUTHULU.

I dont know what really is the issue with giving stats to gods, if you dont want your gods killed they just dont die, you are the dm. You can say the sky is green if you want

Cthulhu isn't a god, though. He's just an extremely powerful alien.

The actual gods of the Mythos are Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurath, and Nyarlathotep.

My understanding of the Lovecraft mythos is that Great Old One and Outer God are pretty much interchangeable. Paizo simply gave the mythic beings of the Dark Tapestry, like Cthulhu, the former designator as an indication of somewhat lesser power and/or station in the chaotic court that resolves Azathoth at the center of all creation. The fact that you can't actually kill Cthulhu in game, though, might actually qualify him for some kind of lesser god-hood. Even Baba-Yaga can be killed, if you get things just right, but Big C? Nope, just goes back to sleep.

The important thing to remember is that Lovecraft did not create his beings as foes for superheroes like high level D20 PC's. His stories revolve around essentially common people... people that don't have the abilities of Superman, Batman, or even Sherlock Holmes. At that level you get to the point where a being is big enough to be effectively godlike even if it's nowhere near being what we would call a god in d20 terms.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The comparison is that normal people are to Cthulu what he is to Azathoth. So it doesn't matter to the normal person which of them show up, they are still going to die.

Of course, Pathfinder PCs aren't normal people past a certain point in the game.


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While I disagree with Thelemic_Noun's assertion that one needs stats in that case (at least without reasonable limits on the word 'needs'),

Kthulhu wrote:

Nah, you just apply the +2 modifier to the ally god's +infinity, and compare it to the enemy god's DC of infinity.

End result: The winning god is decided by which one winning makes a better story/adventure.

... is equally invalid.

So, let's reiterate what we've learned:

What we've learned wrote:

FOR CERTAIN GROUPS, STATS FOR GODS ARE BAD IDEAS. THOSE GROUPS SHOULD AVOID HAVING THEM.

FOR OTHERS, THEY ARE USEFUL - AND EVEN 'NECESSARY' - FOR THE SAKE OF GOOD GAMING AND GOOD STORY TELLING.

SO LET US REMOVE THE CONVERSATION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY SHOULD HAVE STATS, AS THAT IS BEYOND THE SCOPE OF THIS THREAD.

This is the only thing that has been established - and established repeatedly - for the last two pages.

Come on, everybody. This is a thread about peoples' homebrew rules. If you've any comment other than, "I don't see the need for them personally." please feel free to make it. If you haven't noted that you don't need rules like this, but would like, to, excellent. If you have rules that you'd like to note for others to look at, such as Kthulu's last post, wonderful.

But currently we're dragging a guy's thread down; insinuating that he either play your way or he's doing it wrong is a wasted effort. Stop it. The opinion on the subject is noted, but it's now time to move on.

Please critique the rules, not the need for them. Thanks!

(That said, I don't know how it's only now become just apparent that Kratos is a dirty power-gamer. I mean, dude's abusing the rules all over the place. And man... all those dirt roads, and blood. And he never bathes. Ugh.)


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Tacticslion wrote:

While I disagree with Thelemic_Noun's assertion that one needs stats in that case (at least without reasonable limits on the word 'needs'),

Kthulhu wrote:

Nah, you just apply the +2 modifier to the ally god's +infinity, and compare it to the enemy god's DC of infinity.

End result: The winning god is decided by which one winning makes a better story/adventure.

... is equally invalid.

So, let's reiterate what we've learned:

What we've learned wrote:

FOR CERTAIN GROUPS, STATS FOR GODS ARE BAD IDEAS. THOSE GROUPS SHOULD AVOID HAVING THEM.

FOR OTHERS, THEY ARE USEFUL - AND EVEN 'NECESSARY' - FOR THE SAKE OF GOOD GAMING AND GOOD STORY TELLING.

SO LET US REMOVE THE CONVERSATION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY SHOULD HAVE STATS, AS THAT IS BEYOND THE SCOPE OF THIS THREAD.

This is the only thing that has been established - and established repeatedly - for the last two pages.

Come on, everybody. This is a thread about peoples' homebrew rules. If you've any comment other than, "I don't see the need for them personally." please feel free to make it. If you haven't noted that you don't need rules like this, but would like, to, excellent. If you have rules that you'd like to note for others to look at, such as Kthulu's last post, wonderful.

But currently we're dragging a guy's thread down; insinuating that he either play your way or he's doing it wrong is a wasted effort. Stop it. The opinion on the subject is noted, but it's now time to move on.

Please critique the rules, not the need for them. Thanks!

(That said, I don't know how it's only now become just apparent that Kratos is a dirty power-gamer. I mean, dude's abusing the rules all over the place. And man... all those dirt roads, and blood. And he never bathes. Ugh.)

+1


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Dammit Tactics, stop being sane! We're having nerdrage in here!

(That is, also +1)

Shadow Lodge

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Kratos especially takes advantage of the fact that the condition "dead" doesn't have an actual definition.


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Now let's be fair, Kratos is clearly playing in a setting where corporeal afterlives are the norm and there is a physical entrance/exit to the afterlife on the Material Plane that just requires beating up a big dog and an old guy in a boat to reach.


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Orthos wrote:
Now let's be fair, Kratos is clearly playing in a setting where corporeal afterlives are the norm and there is a physical entrance/exit to the afterlife on the Material Plane.

Sounds like my setting :)

Lantern Lodge

I would run a full core deity as a level 40 with 10 mythic tiers. Generally speaking, 20th level in 2 classes. Maybe one hybrid class, depending. Generally speaking, most (if not all) would take Divine Source and Hierophant. A few may be Champion and the rare one may be an Archmage (Nethys, anyone?)

But does CR 40 / ML 10 equal a deity? No, but we're bloody close at that point. Most deities need Mythic Regneration stapled on there, plus Divine Source. Surge is, IMO, at least +1d20 if not more for the core deities. I'd give them Unspeakable Presence as well, from the Great Old One archetype.

Ultimately your average deity would end up with something like mythic subtype, outsider [alignment] and probably augmented.

For instance, I would stat Asmodeus out as a 20th level Warpriest (full Cleric spells nonetheless), 20th level Sorcerer (Arcane 'bloodline', possibly Sage). Mythic Tier 10, likely Champion if any path or Marshal.

SQ of heavy fortification, DR 25/epic, Immune (devil resists), Resist 50 vs other elements SR 50. AC would be broken at around +15 armor, +36 natural, +12 profane, +9 DEX +8 shield, +4 dodge). Converted to outsider d10 hit-die instead of class levels. Regeneration except (good, mythic), 20. Total HP is around 1500 probably. Sick CON, STR, CHA. Reasonable INT, lesser DEX and WIS. Obviously, planar omniscience, see invisibility, limited spell-immunity, detect good at will, detect thoughts, detect magic and smite good/chaos. Some sexy Domain SLA as well, probably including touch of law, evil and battle rage. Charm monster, fireball, teleport, hold monster, spells vs. good and polymorph at will are all in there. Discern location and resurrection SLA go without saying. X/day of wish, as SLA and standard action. Summons of devils, w/ Sacred Summons as a modifying feat.

He'd be able to use any poison on his weapon, and probably prefer to avoid straight up fights, letting summons and his gaze attacks do most of the dirty work. Trickery domain powers are an obvious must, channeling negative energy to heal himself with alignment channel as needed.

To prevent cheesers like the Vacuum or One, I'd throw on something there about how he doesn't need to breathe, and he can summon smoke, mirror images and illusions to keep "One" from owning. Planar Omniscience to see cheap stealth builds coming. Forbiddance effect around his throne.

I'd CR him at around CR 40 / ML 10.


I like both of the posted templates for divine creatures quite a bit, and have used a similar approach to my own games. For my part, I have gone through the effort of statting out deities specifically because I intend to have PCs doing battle with gods by the end of my campaign. The overarching story for my campaign world is essentially a three-part story about one man (ostensibly the villain) and his quest to end the reign of the gods. While the gods are immortal in their home realms, the primary property of the material sphere is impermanence; on the material plane, even gods may die.

I too use a template-based design for statting out deities, although mine is a bit lower in power level than the two already presented. The reason for that is fairly simple - I find that the level 1-20 power curve is already suitable for knocking on the doors of the gods. To my mind, everything past 5th level is essentially mythic and superhuman, so that by the time the PCs are level 20 I want them to be near godhood. This is, of course, mostly a matter of personal preference. To that end, I don't use "epic" levels, but rather something like an E20 system for progression once 20th level is reached. In addition, I don't use the mythic rules and in fact am not very familiar with them(partly because I started writing my rules before those were published, but mostly because I don't find them necessary).

The template I use works similarly to the one Thelemic Noun posted, but with smaller numbers. It's originally based on a toned-down version of the Paragon Creature template from 3.0's Epic Level Handbook. The deities themselves are typically 20th level gestalt characters with my template (this probably puts them at about CR 25).

As far as what has been posted already, I quite like both of these templates for deities intented to be higher power level than what I'm using. In fact, many of the abilities you've presented work better than what I'd come up with. The result is that you've inspired me to rework some aspects of my own work.


Hey, that's great! My divine subtype need not be epic though...it works just as well being applied to a dire lion or an apple tree to make a 'small god'.

Aslan:
Aslan (CR 13)
XP 4,800

Domains Animal, Nobility, Strength
N Large Magical Beast (Divine)
Init +18; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +23
_____________________________________________________________

AC 28, touch 13, flat-footed 26, combat 33 (37 vs. trip)
(+2 deflection, +2 Dex, +15 natural, –1 size)
hp 201 (8d10 + 120)
Resist ability 5, energy drain 5
Fort +11, Ref +10, Will +5
_____________________________________________________________

Speed 80 ft.
Melee bite +19 (1d8 + 9 plus grab) and
2 claws +19 (1d6 + 9)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +9; Combat +19 (+20 grapple)
Attack Options mythic power attack (-3, +9), pounce
Special Actions mythic (10/day, 1d12), rake (2 claws +19, 1d6 + 9)
_____________________________________________________________

Abilities Str 29, Dex 19, Con 21, Int 6, Wis 16, Cha 14
Feats Improved Initiative, Run, Skill Focus (Perception)
Mythic Feats Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Acrobatics +23, Perception +23, Stealth +19 (+27 in undergrowth); Racial +4 Acrobatics, +4 Stealth (+8 in undergrowth)
Treasure incidental
_____________________________________________________________
Alter Reality (Su) As a full round action, Aslan can alter reality by spending a use of mythic power. This is similar to a wish or miracle, except that it can duplicate 9th level spell effects or lower from any class. Aslan can only use this ability to produce effects in line with his portfolio. Within his realm, this is a standard action, and the restrictions on what constitutes an effect in line with his portfolio are relaxed within reason.

Divinity Aslan's divine blast deals 10d8 damage. His divine shield can withstand 40 points of damage. Aslan acts on his initiative and his initiative -5. Aslan is considered a rank 10 mythic creature for the purpose of his hit points and any tier based abilities he activates.

Against non-divine threats, Aslan rolls 2d20 and takes the best on all saves. He does not fail on a natural 1. Within 5 miles, Aslan takes no distance penalty on any skill checks. In addition, any distance based penalties are at -1 per 5 miles, not per 10 ft. If slain by a non-divine opponent, Aslan returns to life in his realm immediately. If slain by a divine opponent (or by a non-divine opponent twice in the same day), he returns to life within 24 hours. Only special circumstances can arrange the true death of Aslan.

Roar As a standard action, Aslan can roar. This causes non-mythic creatures to become panicked if they do not succeed on a Will save (DC 21). The range is 100 ft., but if Aslan spends a mythic point, it increases to 5 miles and summons 3d10 advanced dire lions with maximum hit points.

If you take a look at Aslan (a generic small god in the form of a lion, named in honor of and not attempting to be a statblock of the more famous lion of that name), you can see that he's got some staying power, and yet isn't anywhere near epic. He was built using an advanced dire lion, with the divine subtype.

Some people might point out that with access to alter reality, he's under CRed. I disagree, but the ability does require some maturity. Does it potentially allow for mythic wails of the banshee to be dropped on people? Yes. Should it be? Not with this god. Effects in line with his portfolio means just that. Perhaps he blesses someone with exceptional hunting prowess for a few hours, or uses it to veil a pride from approaching firearms bearing hunters. Who knows? The point is that you can write an ability that allows no leeway in interpretation, or you can write one that allows different DMs to handle different deities very uniquely. Given that a prick DM doesn't need a statblock to make life difficult or impossible for players, I don't really see that I need to tailor my work to keep them from abuse.

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