Why do you have to pay twice if you want hardcopy+pdf of earlier paizo products?


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Liberty's Edge

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Mromson wrote:

Wouldn't Paizo be using those very .pdf's for printing purposes? That shouldn't cost extra, given that you'd need them for printing purposes. Then again I have no idea how said process goes, so I could be absurdly wrong.

I certainly think that the watermarking policy is absurdly ridiculous, especially after the product has been out for a while. Look at every video game in existence - they're all readily available despite the fact that some companies have gone to absurd lengths in their desire to control published content. What's a simple .pdf going to do against that? I don't really see it as anything but a punishment towards the consumer - "do I really want to see my damn name and email on every freakin' page in every pdf?" Things get out. Period.

From my perspective, if I own the hardcover of a book, then I immediately feel entitled to the digital version of the product as well. I generally don't mind if I'm charged a little premium for either hardcover or .pdf when I already own one version ("for convenience", as they say) - it's when I'm essentially told that I own one or the other, without paying (essentially) double when I get annoyed.

Nope, a pdf created for professional offset printing is VERY different than an optimized, bookmarked pdf created for digital customers. You create each separately and each requires its own amount of time, expertise etc. In my opinion, charging a fair price for the PDF in addition to the physical copy (or offering it as a special subscription premium) is more than reasonable.

Creating all those bookmarked, optimized absolutely is a significant additional step and certainly is worth charging for

Just because something is digital doesn't mean it should suddenly be free. And I strongly disagree with your notion that if you buy the physical book you are entitled to the pdf for free. If you buy a CD should you be entitled to then download all the mp3s from that CD as well for free?

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Marc Radle wrote:
Mromson wrote:

Wouldn't Paizo be using those very .pdf's for printing purposes? That shouldn't cost extra, given that you'd need them for printing purposes. Then again I have no idea how said process goes, so I could be absurdly wrong.

I certainly think that the watermarking policy is absurdly ridiculous, especially after the product has been out for a while. Look at every video game in existence - they're all readily available despite the fact that some companies have gone to absurd lengths in their desire to control published content. What's a simple .pdf going to do against that? I don't really see it as anything but a punishment towards the consumer - "do I really want to see my damn name and email on every freakin' page in every pdf?" Things get out. Period.

From my perspective, if I own the hardcover of a book, then I immediately feel entitled to the digital version of the product as well. I generally don't mind if I'm charged a little premium for either hardcover or .pdf when I already own one version ("for convenience", as they say) - it's when I'm essentially told that I own one or the other, without paying (essentially) double when I get annoyed.

Nope, a pdf created for professional offset printing is VERY different than an optimized, bookmarked pdf created for digital customers. You create each separately and each requires its own amount of time, expertise etc. In my opinion, charging a fair price for the PDF in addition to the physical copy (or offering it as a special subscription premium) is more than reasonable.

Creating all those bookmarked, optimized absolutely is a significant additional step and certainly is worth charging for

Just because something is digital doesn't mean it should suddenly be free. And I strongly disagree with your notion that if you buy the physical book you are entitled to the pdf for free. If you buy a CD should you be entitled to then download all the mp3s from that CD as well for free?

Thanks, Marc, you answered this with better words than I could have used. I fear someone would argue that you can easily rip mp3s off a CD for free--but the equivalent to that is scanning a printed book yourself, not getting a free .pdf from the publisher. And the latter is an available option to people who want free .pdfs for their personal use. And if the response to that is "but it's too hard to scan it all myself!" -- Well, maybe that would suggest it's worth paying for the convenience, if nothing else. And of course the optimized .pdfs Paizo sells are far more useful, functional, searchable, etc. than a home scan.

I really think people think because something is digital--because it seems to exist in some magical etherspace where it's easy to access or look at--means it requires less human effort or work or pride to get a finished product. It really, really does not.


DeathQuaker wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:
Mromson wrote:

Wouldn't Paizo be using those very .pdf's for printing purposes? That shouldn't cost extra, given that you'd need them for printing purposes. Then again I have no idea how said process goes, so I could be absurdly wrong.

I certainly think that the watermarking policy is absurdly ridiculous, especially after the product has been out for a while. Look at every video game in existence - they're all readily available despite the fact that some companies have gone to absurd lengths in their desire to control published content. What's a simple .pdf going to do against that? I don't really see it as anything but a punishment towards the consumer - "do I really want to see my damn name and email on every freakin' page in every pdf?" Things get out. Period.

From my perspective, if I own the hardcover of a book, then I immediately feel entitled to the digital version of the product as well. I generally don't mind if I'm charged a little premium for either hardcover or .pdf when I already own one version ("for convenience", as they say) - it's when I'm essentially told that I own one or the other, without paying (essentially) double when I get annoyed.

Nope, a pdf created for professional offset printing is VERY different than an optimized, bookmarked pdf created for digital customers. You create each separately and each requires its own amount of time, expertise etc. In my opinion, charging a fair price for the PDF in addition to the physical copy (or offering it as a special subscription premium) is more than reasonable.

Creating all those bookmarked, optimized absolutely is a significant additional step and certainly is worth charging for

Just because something is digital doesn't mean it should suddenly be free. And I strongly disagree with your notion that if you buy the physical book you are entitled to the pdf for free. If you buy a CD should you be entitled to then download all the mp3s from that CD as well for free?

Thanks, Marc, you...

I have to rephrease my original statement. What I meant when I said that I feel entitled to the pdf version when I already own the hardcover is; when I purchase the hardcover edition of any given product, I feel like I've already paid for the content inside said book - I've paid all the writers, artists and everyone else involved with creating the content that said book contains, then I've also paid to have said content printed professionally. Now, by my logic, if I've already paid for the creation of said content, I should be entitled to the .pdf version of said content, and only pay the premium for the pdf conversion process, and not for the content itself; because I've already paid for it. As I've stated earlier; I don't mind paying a little extra for the various versions (even though I do feel entitled to some of them), what I mind is paying twice for the same content.

Damon Griffin wrote:
Mromson wrote:
My gripe is that I was late to the party, I didn't discover Pathfinder until recently, and now I have no way of catching up - beyond essentially paying double for every product that came before my discovery. And I'm being offered no way to catch up at a reasonable price. I don't think that's fair, and I also don't think good business model where you try to cling to the older consumer base, instead of trying to expand.

Well, consider the reverse position. Long time subscribers arguably have a right to feel "Hey, I've put up my cash month after month for years to support this game, and some guy who shows up last week gets the same benefits? How is that fair?"

I think Paizo's efforts to expand their customer base include not alienating the brick and mortar retailers, and broadening their original product lines to include regular card sets, flip maps, card games, audio, pre-painted figures, pawns, etc. (Incidentally, that's something I've complained about more than once, as I feel the ever growing number of different product lines takes time away from QA in editing products or maintaining FAQs/updates after release.)

Yes, and I think it's extremely unfortunate that they've created a subscriber-only entitlement to pdfs. Ideally, each book would come with a coupon code that would heavily discount the pdf version of the given book (that would certainly also keep the retailers in the fold). However, I'm not sure how I feel about the long time consumer base in this instance - I mean, surely they subscribed to both support the company, as well as to recieve the product (at a discounted price). What would it matter to them if others were offered a similar (perhaps slightly worse) deal? It was either originally worth it to them, or it wasn't.

Given the reality, though - I get that Paizo feel that they need to "sweeten the pot" beyond mere discounts to entice people into a subscription model. I just wish that they found a reasonable way for newcommers to catch up without paying double for the same content.

Liberty's Edge

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If you buy a CD, are you entitled to buy the LP and cassette version (let's pretend those are still current formats) for just a few dollars more because you already paid the artist, record company, producer and engineer once?

If you buy a hard back novel, are you entitled to the audiobook for only an extra couple bucks because you already paid the author, publisher, distributor etc once?

For that matter, if you get into an author or a band later in their career, are you entitled to all their earlier works at a discount?

Heck, I once joined a coffee of the month club but I didn't feel entitled to get all the previous month's coffees (before I decided to join) at some sort of discount!

It just is not a reasonable thing to expect and neither is what you want from Paizo.

Sczarni

Mromson wrote:
Ideally, each book would come with a coupon code that would heavily discount the pdf version of the given book (that would certainly also keep the retailers in the fold).

Vic has responded to this exact option in the past. This is from memory with a few of my own thoughts added in. The issue is that making a code in a book causes additional issues:

1) You can't have it as a separate page, because then customers at the brick and mortar stores will take the insert, the response to this is to make it a scratch-code somewhere in the book (issue 2) or to shrink wrap the books (issue 3)

2) Scratch off codes: They can't make the same code for each copy, because then if the code gets out to the internet, then people who have not purchased the book would be getting a super cheap PDF. Having each different, using an algorithm that is tough to decipher, but can connect to the checkout system would be really tough. It would also increase the price to print the hard copies, which means a bigger price to consumers. Considering the biggest percentage is subscribers, so they would never need said code, it makes it hard to appreciate the price increase.

3)Shrink wrap would prevent more sales than it would gain. A big thing in Paizo's products are the interior art, layout, and cartography that are second to none. By shrink-wrapping products, you loose those big selling points to anyone looking to buy something off the shelf at a FLGS.

I know in the past they have said they are open to discussing ideas, but in all of their research, they were unable to find a cost effective way to provide these options. (I think the post I'm paraphrasing was from 2010 or 2011, but based on the amount of market research they have been doing in other areas, if the option was out there, I think they'd have taken it)


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Marc Radle wrote:

If you buy a CD, are you entitled to buy the LP and cassette version (let's pretend those are still current formats) for just a few dollars more because you already paid the artist, record company, producer and engineer once?

If you buy a hard back novel, are you entitled to the audiobook for only an extra couple bucks because you already paid the author, publisher, distributor etc once?

For that matter, if you get into an author or a band later in their career, are you entitled to all their earlier works at a discount?

Heck, I once joined a coffee of the month club but I didn't feel entitled to get all the previous month's coffees (before I decided to join) at some sort of discount!

It just is not a reasonable thing to expect and neither is what you want from Paizo.

Marc Radle wrote:
If you buy a CD, are you entitled to buy the LP and cassette version (let's pretend those are still current formats) for just a few dollars more because you already paid the artist, record company, producer and engineer once?

If I paid for the original content; then yes, I do feel that I am entitled to own the product on different formats for no additional cost beyond the conversion process itself. Because I already paid for the content itself.

Marc Radle wrote:
If you buy a hard back novel, are you entitled to the audiobook for only an extra couple bucks because you already paid the author, publisher, distributor etc once?

No, I'm not. If I purchased a hardcopy of a novel then I'm not automatically entitled to the audiobook of said product, because creating the audiobook is an additional resource that I didn't pay for. I merely paid for the creation of the original content (writing, editing, etc. etc.) - But to answer what I think you meant by that question; "If I purchased a hardcopy of a novel, do I feel entitled to be able to purchase the audiobook for the additional cost of producing the audiobook?" then Yes, I do. I shouldn't have to pay for the same content twice - ie. the price of the audio book should be "Audiobook Price minus the price of the content"

Let me illustrate this. Assume that James Awesome wrote a book The Certificate for Awesome, by James Awesome, and that he's selling a hardcopy of this book for $10 USD, where $2 USD of that price comes from printing expenses (and yes, I know the price number changes based on volume, but this is just an example). James Awesome is also offering an .epub version of his book for $9 USD, where $1 USD of that price comes from conversion expenses. Additionally, there's also an audiobook version available for $18 USD (digital) and $20 USD (hardcopy CD), where $10 USD of that price comes from the involved cost of producing the audio content (and $2 USD comes from "hardcopy CD" costs). Now from this you see that I assume the "value" of producing the content itself (ie. James writing his book) would be about $8 USD. So how much do I feel that I should have to pay in order to get the Hardcopy of James' Book, an .epub file, audiobook, as well as the audiobook CD? My answer is $23 USD; $8 (content) + $2 (hardcopy book) + $1 (epub file) + $10 (audio) + $2 (hardcopy CD). (edit: plus shipping, of course)

Now, note that the author doesn't have to offer any of those extra things, he could just say "here's the hardcopy of the book, take it or leave it" - and that's fine. I'd simply have to convert the content into other formats myself.

Marc Radle wrote:

Heck, I once joined a coffee of the month club but I didn't feel entitled to get all the previous month's coffees (before I decided to join) at some sort of discount!

It just is not a reasonable thing to expect and neither is what you want from Paizo.

If I joined some coffee of the month club, then I wouldn't feel entitled to the previous month's coffee at any discount, because my position isn't applicable to physical content.

Cpt_kirstov wrote:

Vic has responded to this exact option in the past. This is from memory with a few of my own thoughts added in. The issue is that making a code in a book causes additional issues:

1) You can't have it as a separate page, because then customers at the brick and mortar stores will take the insert, the response to this is to make it a scratch-code somewhere in the book (issue 2) or to shrink wrap the books (issue 3)

2) Scratch off codes: They can't make the same code for each copy, because then if the code gets out to the internet, then people who have not purchased the book would be getting a super cheap PDF. Having each different, using an algorithm that is tough to decipher, but can connect to the checkout system would be really tough. It would also increase the price to print the hard copies, which means a bigger price to consumers. Considering the biggest percentage is subscribers, so they would never need said code, it makes it hard to appreciate the price increase.

3)Shrink wrap would prevent more sales than it would gain. A big thing in Paizo's products are the interior art, layout, and cartography that are second to none. By shrink-wrapping products, you loose those big selling points to anyone looking to buy something off the shelf at a FLGS.

I know in the past they have said they are open to discussing ideas, but in all of their research, they were unable to find a cost effective way to provide these options. (I think the post I'm paraphrasing was from 2010 or 2011, but based on the amount of market research they have been doing in other areas, if the option was out there, I think they'd have taken it)

Point 1 and 3 are both eliminated by having the store keep the cards behind the counter - no need to shrink wrap the books, and point 2 is a literal non-existant issue (making unique codes is painfully easy).


Mromson wrote:
I certainly think that the watermarking policy is absurdly ridiculous, especially after the product has been out for a while. Look at every video game in existence - they're all readily available despite the fact that some companies have gone to absurd lengths in their desire to control published content. What's a simple .pdf going to do against that? I don't really see it as anything but a punishment towards the consumer - "do I really want to see my damn name and email on every freakin' page in every pdf?" Things get out. Period

I may be wrong, but a company must show efforts in case they do need to go after someone for their products. There is no way to guarantee things can not be copied and shared, but if you ever need to protect yourself, you can at least say "I did ___ and ____ to try to prevent this from happening, and the defendant intentionally went around it by ___".


Mromson wrote:
If I paid for the original content; then yes, I do feel that I am entitled to own the product on different formats for no additional cost beyond the conversion process itself. Because I already paid for the content itself.

Those additional formats still cost extra money so you have to pay for them. Personally(not a legal opinion), if you can copy it over to the new format that should be fine, but if you want the company to cover both formats then you should purchase it twice since they are doing the work for you.

As an example if I have a movie, and find a way to rip the audio to a cd so I can listen to it as I go to work that should be fine, but if the company produces a digital download of the same audio I should pay for it, since someone had to do the work, to create it, which cost the company additional money.


When customers want something they also have to consider how it affects the business. If it is bad for business then it likely leads to loss of profits, and that in turn leads to the business going away. No, I am not saying that this alone will shut Paizo down, but a dollar lost in one place, is normally made up somewhere else, and that will just lead to more complaints.

Sovereign Court

Mromson, you may feel that you should get to set the price for the work of Mr. Awesome for the price you listed. But you don't get to price the work of Mr. Awesome. Mr. Awesome (if he self published in all the formats) or his publishing hose gets to set the price. If they want to offer a bundle, great, that's a bonus for you, but you are not entitled to anything other than the specific item you purchased.

You can always scan the copy you purchased to make a digital backup. It won't have the additional features of a .pdf (being able to search the text, bookmarks, hyperlinks, etc.), but then, you didn't pay for that now did you?


zylphryx wrote:

Mromson, you may feel that you should get to set the price for the work of Mr. Awesome for the price you listed. But you don't get to price the work of Mr. Awesome. Mr. Awesome (if he self published in all the formats) or his publishing hose gets to set the price. If they want to offer a bundle, great, that's a bonus for you, but you are not entitled to anything other than the specific item you purchased.

You can always scan the copy you purchased to make a digital backup. It won't have the additional features of a .pdf (being able to search the text, bookmarks, hyperlinks, etc.), but then, you didn't pay for that now did you?

He didn't say he should get to set the price. What he did say is what he feels the products are worth to him as a customer. Regardless of whether that feedback is used, it is always good information to have.

Edit: also, your snark at the end there was uncalled for. Particularly because he didn't complain about the lack of those features in a backup he generated himself. Also because he said he would be happy to pay for development costs of the PDF above that of the game content.

Grand Lodge

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You're thinking about this wrong. You're not buying only the "content," you're buying the content in that format. If you want a different format, you need to purchase the content in that format. That's the current reality regardless to what logic you may use to justify your entitlement.

-Skeld

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigDTBone wrote:
zylphryx wrote:

Mromson, you may feel that you should get to set the price for the work of Mr. Awesome for the price you listed. But you don't get to price the work of Mr. Awesome. Mr. Awesome (if he self published in all the formats) or his publishing hose gets to set the price. If they want to offer a bundle, great, that's a bonus for you, but you are not entitled to anything other than the specific item you purchased.

You can always scan the copy you purchased to make a digital backup. It won't have the additional features of a .pdf (being able to search the text, bookmarks, hyperlinks, etc.), but then, you didn't pay for that now did you?

He didn't say he should get to set the price. What he did say is what he feels the products are worth to him as a customer. Regardless of whether that feedback is used, it is always good information to have.

Edit: also, your snark at the end there was uncalled for. Particularly because he didn't complain about the lack of those features in a backup he generated himself. Also because he said he would be happy to pay for development costs of the PDF above that of the game content.

No snark intended. In the previous post, where he was listing what he felt he should pay for a publication in multiple formats (which is him setting a price that he feels he should pay), he placed the value for the digital version at $1 ( an underestimate to it's value IMO).

By pointing out that, with a scanner, he could make his own PDF, but lacking in the functionality of a professionally produced version, I was emphasizing the actual value to something he feels he should receive free of charge, or at a MUCH reduced rate, all due to a sense of entitlement.

Such a sense of entitlement is misplaced, however, as by purchasing one format of a product does not entitle you to anything else, unless the seller grants it (such as with Paizo giving a free PDF with subscription purchases).

Additionally, companies that sell items for development cost do not tend to stay in business for long.

Sovereign Court

Also, to be clear, when you purchase a book, CD, PDF, whatever, you are not "buying the content", you are buying (or in some cases licensing) a single COPY of said content for your personal use. You do not gain copyright buy purchasing a copy, so you have not, strictly speaking, "bought the content".

Now, part of that purchase though, is the right to create a digital copy for your own personal backup to the original item of purchase, but you, the purchaser, would need to create your own back up copy, not the company that produced the ire you purchased.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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Skeld wrote:

You're thinking about this wrong. You're not buying only the "content," you're buying the content in that format. If you want a different format, you need to purchase the content in that format. That's the current reality regardless to what logic you may use to justify your entitlement.

-Skeld

This. You're not just buying content, but medium and any number of other things. In a print book, I can't touch a word and the book magically turns to its definition in the glossary. I can't leave the book at home and still read it on the bus. (But I CAN benefit from hard copy in other ways, as it is easier to read, etc. so it is worth owning both and paying for the unique convenience each format provides).

This is like saying "I paid for the movie ticket, so I shouldn't have to buy the DVD, but I still want the convenience of watching it on my tv at home."

That attitude is narrow-minded, uncompromising, selfish, self-entitled bullshit, plain and simple. Delete this post if you need to mods, but I'm tired of dancing around the point.


DeathQuaker wrote:
Skeld wrote:

You're thinking about this wrong. You're not buying only the "content," you're buying the content in that format. If you want a different format, you need to purchase the content in that format. That's the current reality regardless to what logic you may use to justify your entitlement.

-Skeld

This. You're not just buying content, but medium and any number of other things. In a print book, I can't touch a word and the book magically turns to its definition in the glossary. I can't leave the book at home and still read it on the bus. (But I CAN benefit from hard copy in other ways, as it is easier to read, etc. so it is worth owning both and paying for the unique convenience each format provides).

This is like saying "I paid for the movie ticket, so I shouldn't have to buy the DVD, but I still want the convenience of watching it on my tv at home."

That attitude is narrow-minded, uncompromising, selfish, self-entitled b#!@%*+$, plain and simple. Delete this post if you need to mods, but I'm tired of dancing around the point.

I wanted to make this post, and held back.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Damon Griffin wrote:
Wow, KEITH is a pretty sophisticated-sounding algorithm. We've come a long way since ELIZA. :)

We try not to think of our setbacks.... like the C.O.S.M.O. AI matrix.


I have to admit, I haven't had any of the words in any of the PDFs I've gotten from Paizo, define themselves from a click.

Is this some feature I've missed out. There seem to be bookmarks, some sort of lock symbol or a password, and signatures...so regular things in a PDF...but nothing with the define word thing. Maybe that's an add on to the actual PDF program one uses?

I don't know if I would or wouldn't, it could be interesting to do so for a mobile library, but am I really allowed to make PDF copies of my hardcopy APs and rulebooks as some people are implying in this thread.

I probably could do a nice enough job (plus my own custom bookmarks where I'd put them in the books, with emphasis on certain encounters and such)...and each book wouldn't take too long to actually scan (so not as much work as people are implying in this thread actually, probably could hash one out in under 30 minutes with the fast scanner, or maybe even 15 to 20)...but then...for the entire library that could literally be hours if not days of work.

I could see the pros as having the library mobile...on the otherhand, I really prefer hardcopy to soft copy and am unsure how much I would actually use PDFs. I buy PDF's from Paizo sometimes as cheaper then hardcopy if curious about the story...or if unavailable hardcopy have thought to buy PDF to print out from them...but PDF isn't really my thing in reading.

But, prior to this hadn't really thought of scanning in the books I have to PDF...that's an idea though. Is this something Paizo has no problem with, because if so I might do that!


GreyWolfLord wrote:

I have to admit, I haven't had any of the words in any of the PDFs I've gotten from Paizo, define themselves from a click.

Is this some feature I've missed out. There seem to be bookmarks, some sort of lock symbol or a password, and signatures...so regular things in a PDF...but nothing with the define word thing. Maybe that's an add on to the actual PDF program one uses?

I don't know if I would or wouldn't, it could be interesting to do so for a mobile library, but am I really allowed to make PDF copies of my hardcopy APs and rulebooks as some people are implying in this thread.

I probably could do a nice enough job (plus my own custom bookmarks where I'd put them in the books, with emphasis on certain encounters and such)...and each book wouldn't take too long to actually scan (so not as much work as people are implying in this thread actually, probably could hash one out in under 30 minutes with the fast scanner, or maybe even 15 to 20)...but then...for the entire library that could literally be hours if not days of work.

I could see the pros as having the library mobile...on the otherhand, I really prefer hardcopy to soft copy and am unsure how much I would actually use PDFs. I buy PDF's from Paizo sometimes as cheaper then hardcopy if curious about the story...or if unavailable hardcopy have thought to buy PDF to print out from them...but PDF isn't really my thing in reading.

But, prior to this hadn't really thought of scanning in the books I have to PDF...that's an idea though. Is this something Paizo has no problem with, because if so I might do that!

I'm pretty sure you're always legally allowed to photocopy/scan physical copies of books you've bought provided it's for your own, private use. You dont have the right to give those copies to other people or otherwise distribute them though.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Greywolflord - I believe DQ is referencing the CRB PDF, which has an extensive amount of hyperlinking. Clicking on a game term will take you to the glossary where it is defined. The hyperlinking was added to the PDF by Paizo, but was considered to be too much work to get included in the typical PDF. This is another example of the extra work that goes into PDF that justifies their cost.

-Skeld

Grand Lodge

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Steve Geddes wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:

I have to admit, I haven't had any of the words in any of the PDFs I've gotten from Paizo, define themselves from a click.

Is this some feature I've missed out. There seem to be bookmarks, some sort of lock symbol or a password, and signatures...so regular things in a PDF...but nothing with the define word thing. Maybe that's an add on to the actual PDF program one uses?

I don't know if I would or wouldn't, it could be interesting to do so for a mobile library, but am I really allowed to make PDF copies of my hardcopy APs and rulebooks as some people are implying in this thread.

I probably could do a nice enough job (plus my own custom bookmarks where I'd put them in the books, with emphasis on certain encounters and such)...and each book wouldn't take too long to actually scan (so not as much work as people are implying in this thread actually, probably could hash one out in under 30 minutes with the fast scanner, or maybe even 15 to 20)...but then...for the entire library that could literally be hours if not days of work.

I could see the pros as having the library mobile...on the otherhand, I really prefer hardcopy to soft copy and am unsure how much I would actually use PDFs. I buy PDF's from Paizo sometimes as cheaper then hardcopy if curious about the story...or if unavailable hardcopy have thought to buy PDF to print out from them...but PDF isn't really my thing in reading.

But, prior to this hadn't really thought of scanning in the books I have to PDF...that's an idea though. Is this something Paizo has no problem with, because if so I might do that!

I'm pretty sure you're always legally allowed to photocopy/scan physical copies of books you've bought provided it's for your own, private use. You dont have the right to give those copies to other people or otherwise distribute them though.

Take a hardcopy of the CRB, scan all 576 or so pages, assemble that in a document, and turn it into a PDF.

Then tell me if you'd rather just pay $10 to have someone else do it for you. That's what I tell people that complain about paying for PDFs. :D

-Skeld


Yeah, it seems perfectly reasonable to me to pay for a PDF and pay for a book separately - I dont see them as the same product at all (most of the time I never use the PDFs I get granted access to and I prefer companies offer a "print only" option rather than just a print/PDF bundle).

However, I dont consider it over-entitled to not hold that view. Given that so many publishers do grant free (or very cheap) access to the PDFs when you buy a hardcopy, I could imagine someone coming to think it was "the done thing".

My advice to the OP was to try and reverse their thinking so that they think of those publishers as going beyond the call of duty, rather than to resent those publishers who don't provide bundles at only a slight increase. It doesnt really change anything but it might make them feel better about it (while the accepted practise gradually changes to suit their needs, perhaps).


zylphryx wrote:

Mromson, you may feel that you should get to set the price for the work of Mr. Awesome for the price you listed. But you don't get to price the work of Mr. Awesome. Mr. Awesome (if he self published in all the formats) or his publishing hose gets to set the price. If they want to offer a bundle, great, that's a bonus for you, but you are not entitled to anything other than the specific item you purchased.

You can always scan the copy you purchased to make a digital backup. It won't have the additional features of a .pdf (being able to search the text, bookmarks, hyperlinks, etc.), but then, you didn't pay for that now did you?

zylphryx wrote:

In the previous post, where he was listing what he felt he should pay for a publication in multiple formats (which is him setting a price that he feels he should pay), he placed the value for the digital version at $1 ( an underestimate to it's value IMO).

By pointing out that, with a scanner, he could make his own PDF, but lacking in the functionality of a professionally produced version, I was emphasizing the actual value to something he feels he should receive free of charge, or at a MUCH reduced rate, all due to a sense of entitlement.

Such a sense of entitlement is misplaced, however, as by purchasing one format of a product does not entitle you to anything else, unless the seller grants it (such as with Paizo giving a free PDF with subscription purchases).

Additionally, companies that sell items for development...

My apologies, I think I might have poorly phrased at least parts of my examples. Lemme try to rephrase them better (English is my third language :S); I didn't intend to set a price on any given product, I was merely attempting to explain how I view the value of any given product. So for simplicity's sake in the example, I set the price of a given hardcover book to $10 USD (lets set Z equal to "the price set for a hardcopy", which in this case would be Z = 10); This is the price that the creator/publisher/owner decided to set on the given product. Now if I were to purchase this product, the value of the included content that I set in my mind is "$Z USD minus $X USD", where X is the price is the printing cost - the X can be an unknown factor for me, for all I know, the printing cost is $9 USD of that price, or even ~$10 (if I'm buying a blank book or something). Now the price for the .pdf (or .epub, or any other format) should be (in my mind) $10 USD minus X plus Y, where Y is the price of [format] conversion. I obviously assume that the cost of both X and Y includes profit for the company - I'm not asking for freebies, I'm just asking for reasonable prices. The price for the [format] conversion shouldn't be much higher than $Y USD if I already own the hardcopy. I blatantly refuse to pay for the same content twice out of principle (unless I feel that I've improperly compensated the creator/author/company for their product - however, even then, I can often find better ways to support them, than simply "buying something twice" (though that does happen)).

Now if you want a proper example of where my stance begins to get muddy, lets look at what happens if I decide to purchase a CAR. A car involves first and foremost a massive investment in Research & Development, then there are obviously huge manufacturing/logistic costs, which are all included in the company's calculation for what the final price would end up at. So lets say I buy a car. Then later I decide, "hey, this is a great car, I should buy a second one" - I've already paid for the R&D and Manufacturing of my car, so how much do I think I should pay to purchase a second model of the exact same car I already own? Ideally, I would expect to pay "manufacturing costs + profit" for the second car - but in practice, that's a lot harder to do. I could for example (in theory) keep buying the same car for cheaper and sell it on to my friends - but I wouldn't exactly be purchasing the product "in different formats".

I don't think that a company shouldn't be fairly compensated for providing already purchased content in a different format. I merely think that they shouldn't be compensated twice for the same content by holding it hostage against other formats. When I feel that a company doesn't treat me fairly, then I simply don't do business with them, regardless of how much I might love their content, and encourage friends to do the same.

Skeld wrote:

You're thinking about this wrong. You're not buying only the "content," you're buying the content in that format. If you want a different format, you need to purchase the content in that format. That's the current reality regardless to what logic you may use to justify your entitlement.

I realize that as a copyright holder, you have the power over distribution. You can dictate explicitly where and how your content is distributed - whether it be via book, or engraved on the backside of a duck. All I can do is voice my opinions and hope for a change, if that doesn't help, then the only alternative is to cease being a customer (or in some cases never become a customer in the first place). I understand the reality of the premise, but I fervently disagree with its result.

That said, my contention here isn't that every hardcopy should come with an accordingly priced .pdf (though I obviously think that this is how it should be) - my contention is that due to the fact that I was essentially late to the Pathfinder party, and I have no reasonable (to me) way of catching up. Take for example The Inner Sea Gods Campaign Setting, one of many products I would more than happily have purchased, however; if I were to add the hardcopy+pdf to my cart, even with the Adventure Path discount that would still cost me ~$58 USD+shipping. That's an absolutely absurd price, especially to a student such as myself - and that's just one (albeit nice) book. Not a deal I'd jump on, if only out of sheer principle. I want to support things I like, but there are limits.

DeathQuaker wrote:

This is like saying "I paid for the movie ticket, so I shouldn't have to buy the DVD, but I still want the convenience of watching it on my tv at home."

That attitude is narrow-minded, uncompromising, selfish, self-entitled b*@%+*#~, plain and simple. Delete this post if you need to mods, but I'm tired of dancing around the point.

Buying a movie ticket involves essentially renting a product - and I sincerely hope that's not what I'm doing when choosing to support a company.

And I sincerely apologize if I upset you (or anyone else) with my posts, that was certainly not my intention. :/


zylphryx wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
zylphryx wrote:

Mromson, you may feel that you should get to set the price for the work of Mr. Awesome for the price you listed. But you don't get to price the work of Mr. Awesome. Mr. Awesome (if he self published in all the formats) or his publishing hose gets to set the price. If they want to offer a bundle, great, that's a bonus for you, but you are not entitled to anything other than the specific item you purchased.

You can always scan the copy you purchased to make a digital backup. It won't have the additional features of a .pdf (being able to search the text, bookmarks, hyperlinks, etc.), but then, you didn't pay for that now did you?

He didn't say he should get to set the price. What he did say is what he feels the products are worth to him as a customer. Regardless of whether that feedback is used, it is always good information to have.

Edit: also, your snark at the end there was uncalled for. Particularly because he didn't complain about the lack of those features in a backup he generated himself. Also because he said he would be happy to pay for development costs of the PDF above that of the game content.

No snark intended. In the previous post, where he was listing what he felt he should pay for a publication in multiple formats (which is him setting a price that he feels he should pay), he placed the value for the digital version at $1 ( an underestimate to it's value IMO).

By pointing out that, with a scanner, he could make his own PDF, but lacking in the functionality of a professionally produced version, I was emphasizing the actual value to something he feels he should receive free of charge, or at a MUCH reduced rate, all due to a sense of entitlement.

Such a sense of entitlement is misplaced, however, as by purchasing one format of a product does not entitle you to anything else, unless the seller grants it (such as with Paizo giving a free PDF with subscription purchases).

Additionally, companies that sell items for development...

The $1 was an example used for the purpose of demonstrating his point. He didn't put a hard value on anything.


Mromson wrote:
I don't think that a company shouldn't be fairly compensated for providing already purchased content in a different format. I merely think that they shouldn't be compensated twice for the same content by holding it hostage against other formats. When I feel that a company doesn't treat me fairly, then I simply don't do business with them, regardless of how much I might love their content, and encourage friends to do the same.

I find this an interesting comment. To me, you're essentially doing what you'd like them not to do: hold something hostage. Your statement seems to be "if you don't do it this way, then not only will I not buy it I'll actively try to get others not to as well."

In any case, from what I recall of these conversations from the past part of the costs for PDFs involve the wonders of the Internet and piracy, of having someone take the version used to print the book and turn it into a full and useful document with bookmarks, with art set and so on. This isn't a five minute deal -- someone has to get paid to do this. Someone gets paid to install the watermarks and other security and I assume someone(s) are paid to monitor the dark places on the Internet where these documents turn up.

Again, this is about wants. You'd like to catch up which is great. RPGs are an expensive hobby, even on the secondary market. When you add in PDFs you run into more money, because those aren't "used" and don't usually turn up on Ebay/Amazon/etc. You just have to decide if you need all/some/none of the books in PDF and how much you want to spend.


The thing is the subscription model is working well for Paizo and I'm not sure it makes sense to tinker with it too much without sufficiently good reason. Sure getting the pdf for past products that you buy would be nice, but if the free pdf is available elsewhere that removes an incentive for being a subscriber. Would giving away old pdf's with physical purchase provide sufficient benefit to be worth the potential loss of subscribers? Maybe it would and maybe it wouldn't, but if Paizo are happy with how things currently work for them I'm not sure the experiment is worth doing.

And as somebody mentioned earlier the pdf's do get pretty cheap at sale time. I was initially a bit disappointed that I didn't get a pdf with the Rise of the Runelords Collector's Edition since I wasn't a subscriber at the time, but was happy enough when I eventually picked it up with a discount.

And just as a quick aside on the watermarking, certainly it isn't a perfect form of copy protection, but I find it pretty unobtrusive. And while it won't catch everybody, it does serve as a good deterrent against 'casual' piracy.


knightnday wrote:
Mromson wrote:
I don't think that a company shouldn't be fairly compensated for providing already purchased content in a different format. I merely think that they shouldn't be compensated twice for the same content by holding it hostage against other formats. When I feel that a company doesn't treat me fairly, then I simply don't do business with them, regardless of how much I might love their content, and encourage friends to do the same.

I find this an interesting comment. To me, you're essentially doing what you'd like them not to do: hold something hostage. Your statement seems to be "if you don't do it this way, then not only will I not buy it I'll actively try to get others not to as well."

In any case, from what I recall of these conversations from the past part of the costs for PDFs involve the wonders of the Internet and piracy, of having someone take the version used to print the book and turn it into a full and useful document with bookmarks, with art set and so on. This isn't a five minute deal -- someone has to get paid to do this. Someone gets paid to install the watermarks and other security and I assume someone(s) are paid to monitor the dark places on the Internet where these documents turn up.

Again, this is about wants. You'd like to catch up which is great. RPGs are an expensive hobby, even on the secondary market. When you add in PDFs you run into more money, because those aren't "used" and don't usually turn up on Ebay/Amazon/etc. You just have to decide if you need all/some/none of the books in PDF and how much you want to spend.

I'm not sure if I understand what that comment would hold any particular interest, I mean; if you find a company you dislike, then you're not exactly gonna go recommend said company to your friends - you'll tell them why you dislike them. Pretty sure that goes for everyone everywhere.

And I'm not concerned with the actions of pirates; they're not the customers - but I am. Plenty of companies end up on my shit list for not understanding that.

But yes; RPGs are expensive - though that's mostly due to the relatively small customer base, especially compared to other things. But that also means that my threshold for what is acceptable is much lower, even with products I like - I don't have to catch up, I would like to, but at present that isn't possible out of sheer principle. I can live with that. ;)


Mromson wrote:

I'm not sure if I understand what that comment would hold any particular interest, I mean; if you find a company you dislike, then you're not exactly gonna go recommend said company to your friends - you'll tell them why you dislike them. Pretty sure that goes for everyone everywhere.

And I'm not concerned with the actions of pirates; they're not the customers - but I am. Plenty of companies end up on my s$!& list for not understanding that.

But yes; RPGs are expensive - though that's mostly due to the relatively small customer base, especially compared to other things. But that also means that my threshold for what is acceptable is much lower, even with products I like - I don't have to catch up, I would like to, but at present that isn't possible out of sheer principle. I can live with that. ;)

While you may not care about the actions of pirates, the people you want to purchase from have to be. In any case, you seem to have made up your mind regarding what you are going to do. Best wishes.

Grand Lodge

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You're not buying the product you think you're buying. You think your buying content in any form, but what you're really buying is content in a single form, print or PDF. Subscribers buy content in the printed form and are given the content in the PDF form as a benefit of subscribing. Some content is labeled open and that content is available on the internets for free. Some content is considered IP and is only available in print or PDF.

This is the way it has worked for years. I'm sorry that makes it hard to catch up on all the things you missed.

-Skeld


Mromson wrote:
I don't think that a company shouldn't be fairly compensated for providing already purchased content in a different format. I merely think that they shouldn't be compensated twice for the same content by holding it hostage against other formats. When I feel that a company doesn't treat me fairly, then I simply don't do business with them, regardless of how much I might love their content, and encourage friends to do the same.

What company does give you the purchase model you're describing here as "paying only once for the content" within the subscription format?

Liberty's Edge

Mromson wrote:


And I'm not concerned with the actions of pirates; they're not the customers - but I am. Plenty of companies end up on my s~*% list for not understanding that.

But yes; RPGs are expensive - though that's mostly due to the relatively small customer base, especially compared to other things. But that also means that my threshold for what is acceptable is much lower, even with products I like - I don't have to catch up, I would like to, but at present that isn't possible out of sheer principle. I can live with that. ;)

That's certainly a fair point of view, but, with all due respect, it's somewhat naive. While you personally may not care about piracy, companies do - they have to because digital piracy is a very real concern that costs companies money (publishers, musicians, film studios ...) It's unfortunate that a relatively small group of selfish, self-entitled bozos who seem to feel it's OK to steal content instead of pay for it has caused the current environment in which companies have to go to excessive lengths to protect themselves, but it simply is the reality.

I really do understand not having the money and/or means to purchase everything you want, but that's really more of a personal issue - it's not a companies job to change rules, practices or policies around to better suit you (as much as we all might wish it were so :)

Companies simply must operate in the ways that are best for them so that they can remain profitable and, in turn, produce the products that we want them to. It's certainly OK if a person doesn't like or doesn't understand these policies, but it's also acceptable, critical in fact, that those companies continue to operate in the ways that allow them to remain profitable.

Bottom line, Paizo is an AMAZING company that goes out of its way for thier company. What's more, the online community here is pretty fantastic too (aside from a few jerks of course) - take your recent gifted PDF for example!

You've expressed a few things that you personally don't like, which is great; *many* folks have explained why those things are the way they are and, more importantly, MUST be the way they are. My advice to you is to let this drop now, try and move forward from here and then do (or don't do) whatever you personally need to.


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knightnday wrote:
I find this an interesting comment. To me, you're essentially doing what you'd like them not to do: hold something hostage. Your statement seems to be "if you don't do it this way, then not only will I not buy it I'll actively try to get others not to as well."

Just as a brief aside:

In a consumption-based economy driven by consumers (which is what "we" are all in), the above statement is impossible (i.e. in such an economic system, consumers simply can't "hold something hostage". Alternately, if someone insists on defining such a thing in such a way, then doing so is right and proper. That's how consumers actually work, and how they should work).

Carry on.

Sovereign Court

Mromson wrote:
Now if you want a proper example of where my stance begins to get muddy, lets look at what happens if I decide to purchase a CAR.

Actually, the better example of where your stance gets muddy was the movie example DeathQuaker gave. You spend $12 for a ticket to see a movie, should you now be entitled to get the DVD, videotape and .mp4 file at a rate that is just covering the conversion cost? No, of course not.

EDIT: I saw you responded to this point in a later post. The above statement can be disregarded.

How about we turn this around.

What about if you bought the pdf for $10 ... should you be able to buy the physical copy of the book for a reduced rate?


zylphryx wrote:
Mromson wrote:
Now if you want a proper example of where my stance begins to get muddy, lets look at what happens if I decide to purchase a CAR.

Actually, the better example of where your stance gets muddy was the movie example DeathQuaker gave. You spend $12 for a ticket to see a movie, should you now be entitled to get the DVD, videotape and .mp4 file at a rate that is just covering the conversion cost? No, of course not.

How about we turn this around.

What about if you bought the pdf for $10 ... should you be able to buy the physical copy of the book for a reduced rate?

The movie ticket is an experience purchase and never carried any concept of re-use.

What is the difference between bundling A with B or B with A?

I understand that Paizo is not a major production studio, however, recently I was at best buy and on the end cap they had Despicable Me 2. DVD for $19.99 or Blu-Ray for $23.99. The Blu-Ray also included a separate disc of the DVD in the box, and on the reverse of that DVD was the digital version suitable for watching on your computer or mobile device.

This is not a new concept. Format bundling has been around for at least 10 years.

Also, Rite offers their products with bundle discounts.

So a company in the same space as Paizo does the same thing.

I'm not saying Paizo should or shouldn't do anything they feel is not in their best business interest, but to call people naive or entitled is beyond ridiculous.

Sovereign Court

BigDTBone wrote:
zylphryx wrote:
Mromson wrote:
Now if you want a proper example of where my stance begins to get muddy, lets look at what happens if I decide to purchase a CAR.

Actually, the better example of where your stance gets muddy was the movie example DeathQuaker gave. You spend $12 for a ticket to see a movie, should you now be entitled to get the DVD, videotape and .mp4 file at a rate that is just covering the conversion cost? No, of course not.

How about we turn this around.

What about if you bought the pdf for $10 ... should you be able to buy the physical copy of the book for a reduced rate?

The movie ticket is an experience purchase and never carried any concept of re-use.

What is the difference between bundling A with B or B with A?

I understand that Paizo is not a major production studio, however, recently I was at best buy and on the end cap they had Despicable Me 2. DVD for $19.99 or Blu-Ray for $23.99. The Blu-Ray also included a separate disc of the DVD in the box, and on the reverse of that DVD was the digital version suitable for watching on your computer or mobile device.

This is not a new concept. Format bundling has been around for at least 10 years.

Also, Rite offers their products with bundle discounts.

So a company in the same space as Paizo does the same thing.

I'm not saying Paizo should or shouldn't do anything they feel is not in their best business interest, but to call people naive or entitled is beyond ridiculous.

Never called anyone naive. However, if you feel a sense of entitlement to more than what you actually paid for ...

Bottom line is you are entitled to exactly what you pay for. If the offer is $X for Product A it does not mean you are entitled to Product B for anything other than what the price for Product B is. If a company wants to include a free pdf with subscription, then they are going above and beyond. if they want to bundle print and PDF for a lower price than buying the two separately, then they are going above and beyond. But to feel entitled to have something that is not offered, is, by definition, to have a sense of entitlement. To deny that is what is beyond ridiculous.


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There is a huge difference between being entitled in general and feeling entitled about a purchase.

I buy a car I feel entitled to a full tank of gas and a vacuumed interior. That doesn't make me a jerk.

I go around acting like people should offer their sleeve for me to wipe my face on because it's hot outside and I'm sweaty, that makes me an entitled jerk.

The accusation being thrown around in this thread is much closer to the second one.

It is easy for a company to say, "well they are just going above and beyond," but it doesn't stop that market force from driving consumer expectations and perceptions. Consumers see the "digital version" as a throw away item. And that is because companies give it away for free!

Go to the product page for the CRB. Do you see any features listed specifically for the PDF? No. Because Paizo doesn't market the features of the PDF to give them value.

So, between not marketing the value of the product on its own merits (ie, distinct from the hard copy) and giving it away for free it is impossible with a straight face to look a customer in the eye and call them entitled (as the second example above) for expecting a discount on that thing which you give away for free and don't market the value of.


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BigDTBone wrote:

I buy a car I feel entitled to a full tank of gas and a vacuumed interior. That doesn't make me a jerk.

I go around acting like people should offer their sleeve for me to wipe my face on because it's hot outside and I'm sweaty, that makes me an entitled jerk.

The accusation being thrown around in this thread is much closer to the second one.

I think it devolves to that, as the question has been sufficiently answered as to why Paizo has taken such a route and it gets a little old when a few of the free-pdf camp still return to their point, which ultimately boils down to "but I want it."

This is a niche business in a hobby "industry" that has managed to find a model that is working for them and is overall very good to their customers and puts out above-par quality products. "But I want it" is an understandable argument, I can even sympathize with it, but it doesn't override the need for a business to keep its lights on and its personnel paid.


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Doug OBrien wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

I buy a car I feel entitled to a full tank of gas and a vacuumed interior. That doesn't make me a jerk.

I go around acting like people should offer their sleeve for me to wipe my face on because it's hot outside and I'm sweaty, that makes me an entitled jerk.

The accusation being thrown around in this thread is much closer to the second one.

I think it devolves to that, as the question has been sufficiently answered as to why Paizo has taken such a route and it gets a little old when a few of the free-pdf camp still return to their point, which ultimately boils down to "but I want it."

This is a niche business in a hobby "industry" that has managed to find a model that is working for them and is overall very good to their customers and puts out above-par quality products. "But I want it" is an understandable argument, I can even sympathize with it, but it doesn't override the need for a business to keep its lights on and its personnel paid.

I totally understand this. I don't buy hardcovers of the core line, I only buy the PDF. I'm not arguing they have no value. But what I am saying is that the expectation of getting a digital product alongside physical media isn't just being an entitled jerk. The concept is rooted in media distribution for at least 10 years and Paizo's own practices reinforce that expectation.

Basically, I object to those who would call the OP names and in general be jerks about a completely justified, predictable, and common belief.

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber

Paizo, however, do not offer 'a free PDF when you buy the physical product'.

What they do is offer a free PDF if you take out a subscription to the physical product, which is a very different idea. The free PDF is an incentive to get you to sign up for a subscription; it isn't a product you get because you bought the hardcopy. It's basically no different from those "12 discs for a penny" or "your first three books free/cheap" deals that we used to get before the digital age to encourage us to sign up for the record/book of the month club (which is how I got my copy of the OED...)

Some publishers do offer a 'free' PDF with physical purchase. But it isn't really free; the price of that PDF has been bundled into the price you pay for the hardcopy (just like that 'free' detailing, and the 'free' tank of gas, are bundled into the price the auto dealership charges you for the car).

Sovereign Court

+1 JohnF.

Additionally, I would like to point out that it is possible to have a sense of entitlement without being "an entitled jerk". Unless I missed something , no one has accused anyone of being such. However, i has been pointed out that to expect things above and beyond what you pay for is, indeed, having a sense of entitlement, but it does not make one a jerk. The "jerk" classification is accomplished solely by the attitude one puts forth.

EDIT: and to be clear, I don't think there have been any brandishing of attitude that would put anyone into the "jerk" category.

Grand Lodge

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BigDTBone wrote:
zylphryx wrote:
Mromson wrote:
Now if you want a proper example of where my stance begins to get muddy, lets look at what happens if I decide to purchase a CAR.

Actually, the better example of where your stance gets muddy was the movie example DeathQuaker gave. You spend $12 for a ticket to see a movie, should you now be entitled to get the DVD, videotape and .mp4 file at a rate that is just covering the conversion cost? No, of course not.

How about we turn this around.

What about if you bought the pdf for $10 ... should you be able to buy the physical copy of the book for a reduced rate?

The movie ticket is an experience purchase and never carried any concept of re-use.

What is the difference between bundling A with B or B with A?

I understand that Paizo is not a major production studio, however, recently I was at best buy and on the end cap they had Despicable Me 2. DVD for $19.99 or Blu-Ray for $23.99. The Blu-Ray also included a separate disc of the DVD in the box, and on the reverse of that DVD was the digital version suitable for watching on your computer or mobile device.

This is not a new concept. Format bundling has been around for at least 10 years.

Also, Rite offers their products with bundle discounts.

So a company in the same space as Paizo does the same thing.

I'm not saying Paizo should or shouldn't do anything they feel is not in their best business interest, but to call people naive or entitled is beyond ridiculous.

Paizo does offer a product bundle, they call it a "subscription." It works on current (this month's) products and future products, but doesn't work on past products.

It's also important to note that you can start and stop a subscription at will, with (as far as I've been able to tell) no consequences. It's just a matter of timing the start/stop in the appropriate month. In months where a product line has released multiple products, Paizo has even let people use their sub on one product and not another. As far as pre-orders go, it's remarkably flexible.

The only thing they don't do is off a sub on products from the past. If you want the print+PDF of a book from 3 years ago, it literally takes one extra mouseclick to add that to the cart and go through check-out. It costs more, but that's the disadvantage of waiting.

-Skeld


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Skeld wrote:


It's also important to note that you can start and stop a subscription at will, with (as far as I've been able to tell) no consequences. It's just a matter of timing the start/stop in the appropriate month. In months where a product line has released multiple products, Paizo has even let people use their sub on one product and not another. As far as pre-orders go, it's remarkably flexible.

The only thing they don't do is off a sub on products from the past. If you want the print+PDF of a book from 3 years ago, it literally takes one extra mouseclick to add that to the cart and go through check-out. It costs more, but that's the disadvantage of waiting.

-Skeld

Just to back this up:

As soon as you start introducing ways that effectively devalue the subscription, people are less likely to subscribe. I keep up my subscription through the occasional book I don't think I want right now just because it gets me the free PDF rather than having to wait until I realize later I needed it. Offer older book+PDF bundles and I'm likely to drop that subscription from time to time and worry about picking things up later - an idea that personally I find great, but I doubt Paizo would. (Incidently, not having an incredibly convenient unsubscribe button also helps here because I'm sure if it were there I think it'd see a fair bit of use on certain products, which then defeats the whole purpose of offering a subscription.)

Subscriptions give Paizo a pretty reliable monthly income. Certainly better than throwing books out the door and hoping somebody will want to buy them. Cashflow in this business can be a nasty thing (Trust me, I speak from experience here) because you still have those things that need paying monthly, like staff (I know, right? Horrible people expecting to be paid on top of getting to work for Paizo.) Knowing you'll have a certain amount of cash after the next monthly sub run means you can also hire the artists for that book you're working on without having to worry about dipping into past profits. Other companies meanwhile without that monthly income tend to end up doing preorder (and pre-pay, and unfortunately Kickstarter) schemes for things coming out in a few months just to be able to pay to get them developed in the first place.

So, the added value of those PDFs is fairly big when it comes to selling subscriptions. That, combined with the aforementioned revolt by bricks+mortar stores if they see any more benefits given to Paizo's direct customers, tends to mean the handful of extra customers they might end up with by selling Book+PDF bundles outside of subscriptions would quite likely be outweighed by the overall loss elsewhere in the business.

Sovereign Court

GreyWolfLord wrote:
But, prior to this hadn't really thought of scanning in the books I have to PDF...that's an idea though. Is this something Paizo has no problem with, because if so I might do that!

Just a small aside:

If you are a PFS player, I don't believe that a PDF that you made yourself will be accepted to prove that you own an additional resource in the game. I believe that you would still need the watermarked PDF.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
armac wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:
But, prior to this hadn't really thought of scanning in the books I have to PDF...that's an idea though. Is this something Paizo has no problem with, because if so I might do that!

Just a small aside:

If you are a PFS player, I don't believe that a PDF that you made yourself will be accepted to prove that you own an additional resource in the game. I believe that you would still need the watermarked PDF.

Or you can just bring the actual book.

-Skeld


armac wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:
But, prior to this hadn't really thought of scanning in the books I have to PDF...that's an idea though. Is this something Paizo has no problem with, because if so I might do that!

Just a small aside:

If you are a PFS player, I don't believe that a PDF that you made yourself will be accepted to prove that you own an additional resource in the game. I believe that you would still need the watermarked PDF.

It's also worth pointing out for anyone else reading this, that not every country follows the same copyright laws and conventions. Just because it's legal to scan a book you own for personal use in one country it doesn't follow it is legal everywhere else.

Sovereign Court

Skeld wrote:


Or you can just bring the actual book.

-Skeld

Oh, I know, but I tend to bring just the watermarked pages that I need. I just don't want to see someone scan their own books and then bring only the needed pages without a watermark.

Scarab Sages

Marc Radle wrote:

Nope, a pdf created for professional offset printing is VERY different than an optimized, bookmarked pdf created for digital customers. You create each separately and each requires its own amount of time, expertise etc. In my opinion, charging a fair price for the PDF in addition to the physical copy (or offering it as a special subscription premium) is more than reasonable.

Creating all those bookmarked, optimized absolutely is a significant additional step and certainly is worth charging for

Just because something is digital doesn't mean it should suddenly be free. And I strongly disagree with your notion that if you buy the physical book you are entitled to the pdf for free. If you buy a CD should you be entitled to then download all the mp3s from that CD as well for free?

As I am coming in late, I apologize in advance if I'm repeating what someone else has already said, but Marc is correct. The bookmarked digital product PDF is not the same as the source files that a printer would be working from. It's an additional step that's taken during and after the production of a product for printing.

Also, and I know a lot of people have a hard time wrapping their heads around this... the significant costs of a book to the publisher include but are in no way limited to its physicalness. I'd be willing to bet cold cash that they (Paizo) spend as much, if not more, on the art and design for a book.

Yes, physical cost per copy comes down as you print more books but a) it never reaches zero, and b) a non-printed book still costs money.

NOW, if you want to suggest that it would be nice if Paizo offered a discounted Print + PDF deal for non-subscribers and/or non-pre-orders... yeah, I agree, that would be nice. It obviously would have to be less of a discount than what's offered to subscribers as they can't afford to undercut their subscription base.

Additionally, as it's not something that would be easy for a brick and mortar store to be able to fulfill, it's also something that's likely to upset some of their brick and mortar resellers. No game company, not even Paizo, can really afford to upset the game stores. They're still a significant portion of sales. I know there have been attempts to allow retailers to be able to offer a PDF (fulfillment via email usually) when you purchase the physical copy, but even that's non-trivial.

Scarab Sages

Skeld wrote:

Take a hardcopy of the CRB, scan all 576 or so pages, assemble that in a document, and turn it into a PDF.

Then tell me if...

THIS. THIS RIGHT HERE...

I've scanned, graphical and/or OCR large volumes on information and it is tedious, time consuming, and very much not fun. Assuming you have a scanner that has a page feeder rather than a flat bed, you still have to destroy the book to be able to feed it into the auto feeder. Even then, things go wrong, pages don't feed right, get eaten during the process, etc.

Once all of that is done, it then has to be processed for OCR and all of the mistakes the OCR make will need to be corrected... and a spell checker WILL NOT find all of the mistakes.

When Omnipage or some other OCR software claims 99.5% accuracy... first of all, that's in absolutely perfect conditions and even then consider the size of the data we're talking. Assuming 250 words per page on average (really rough guess, likely not valid), at 99.5% accuracy, the core rulebook would yield 6K errors (not including layout). A spell checker, as I said, will find some of those, but not all of them. Layout itself will introduce errors as well.

So yes, you COULD make your own scanned PDF... and you'll end up with an inferior product that took a significant amount of time and effort to produce. How much is your time worth? Oh, and you're out the hardcover copy as well. I suppose you could three ring punch it and put it in a binder or something.

That's assuming you're doing all of this yourself. The moment you cross the line and resort to piracy, well, you're now breaking the law for sure and that's all I have to say on that subject.


Or you could use a page scanner. I wouldn't use the pen version, but the flat version, much easier and you don't destroy the book.

Also, much quicker than trying to lay a book flat on some sort of screen and such since you have the scanner to the book instead of the book to the scanner.

Pen version would be a pain though, that's line by line, wouldn't ever do that method.

Much quicker with the flat page scanner...so much quicker too.

It still would be easier with the Paizo Paperbacks though (most were designed to lay flatter with the creases in the cover), you could even use that on the typical scanner/printer you find in the stores with no problem...and that would be even faster still.

Don't see why anyone would have to destroy any books with the right equipment, though I suppose there are many who don't know about the right equipment or how to scan something...that's the only reason I can understand people discussing destroying books via scanning and such.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

GreyWolfLord wrote:

Or you could use a page scanner. I wouldn't use the pen version, but the flat version, much easier and you don't destroy the book.

Also, much quicker than trying to lay a book flat on some sort of screen and such since you have the scanner to the book instead of the book to the scanner.

Pen version would be a pain though, that's line by line, wouldn't ever do that method.

Much quicker with the flat page scanner...so much quicker too.

It still would be easier with the Paizo Paperbacks though (most were designed to lay flatter with the creases in the cover), you could even use that on the typical scanner/printer you find in the stores with no problem...and that would be even faster still.

Don't see why anyone would have to destroy any books with the right equipment, though I suppose there are many who don't know about the right equipment or how to scan something...that's the only reason I can understand people discussing destroying books via scanning and such.

Depends on the process and the equipment, but doesn't necessarily mean it's bad equipment per se. It also depends on what you can afford. A friend of mine had a book scanner that tended to wreck the book a bit, but the trade off was a good quality scan with good OCR--she was blind, and scanned the books so she could have them read to her from her computer. She needed to use a scanner that automated the process a bit so that she didn't need to check if it was, say, centered/angled properly because she could only tell via touch. I think the scanners are better now than the one she used then, but it depends on whether you can afford to get the best quality/keep updating your equipment.

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