Gotham


Television

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unfortunately the show doesn't even function well as a procedural. Tone wise its all over the place, and most of the time there really isn't any mystery/complexity associated with the crimes Gordon does investigate. I for one would prefer a grittier more down to earth approach if we were going to have the show take place while Bruce Wayne was still a kid.


I was kind of put off by...well, most of this episode, but in particular the way various things ended up.

No one saw through Theo's hammed-up performance when he was playing hero for the camera?

Jerome's (likely) dead, and somehow just having seen the guy's antics on live TV inspires random hoodlums to start laughing and stabbing each other?

Did I blink and miss the point of Helzinger's character? He seems to have done nothing but beat up Gordon and then wandered off to a bar. Kind of lame for a hand-picked cohort, even if he was always meant to be temporary.

Also, while I was doing all that blinking, I evidently missed the first appearance on the show of Silver St. Cloud.


You just made me realize that I would also accept a procedural centered around Lieutenant Gordon, with the same Penguin, and a functioning Batman (and maybe family?) who we never see. Just picking up the pieces. There could be some good mysteries there, some nice grimdark, and some good comedy.

Or be really innovative and do a Batman show where Batman is a character, but never shows up on screen. This reminds me of the Fonzi solution. Standards and Practices (network censors) said that Fonzi could only wear his leather jacket in scenes in which he appeared with his motorcycle. They dealt with this by having him bring his motorcycle into the house, into Al's, everywhere.

So, you can't put Batman on the screen, make him the unseen character everyone talks about.

Sovereign Court

AWesome. Didn't expect Jerome to die. Good thing he did.


...So we Gypsy curses now I guess?

Hama wrote:
AWesome. Didn't expect Jerome to die. Good thing he did.

Why? He was by far the best actor on that show.

And probably the most annoying on Shameless so I couldn't care less if he went back to that.

Sovereign Court

MMCJawa wrote:
I for one would prefer a grittier more down to earth approach if we were going to have the show take place while Bruce Wayne was still a kid.

sorry to say, but marvel now has full custody of gritty; dc has apparently managed to retain camp two or three nights a week...

Sovereign Court

Rynjin wrote:

...So we Gypsy curses now I guess?

Hama wrote:
AWesome. Didn't expect Jerome to die. Good thing he did.

Why? He was by far the best actor on that show.

And probably the most annoying on Shameless so I couldn't care less if he went back to that.

that actor was indeed great... However i had concerns about that show becoming jokery too fast. Now we can go back to guessing if penguin will turn into the joker one day (if you think I'm a bit jaded, well...)

Sovereign Court

Rynjin wrote:

...So we Gypsy curses now I guess?

Hama wrote:
AWesome. Didn't expect Jerome to die. Good thing he did.

Why? He was by far the best actor on that show.

And probably the most annoying on Shameless so I couldn't care less if he went back to that.

Because I didn't want him to become the Joker. Nobody should ever find out how Joker came to be.


Why does it matter? It's an alternate continuity anyway.

Sovereign Court

Rynjin wrote:
Why does it matter? It's an alternate continuity anyway.

Doesn't matter. Still good.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Killing off the most fun part of your series so far when you've struggled to produce good content isn't a great decision.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rynjin wrote:
Killing off the most fun part of your series so far when you've struggled to produce good content isn't a great decision.

To me it means they've grown balls. Taking risks. Not just going with the flow and producing sub-par content.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

only if the decision to kill off Jerome leads to better content, which given Gotham's track record...

Sovereign Court

I agree with Hama. Not every show need to run for 10 seasons (I'm looking at you Smallville... although I loved that show, I can self-admit that it might have been better over 4 or 5 seasons)

There's no way in heck I could make myself re-watch anything that ran so long, so in essence, these shows become like cheap magazines you throw out after you read them.

On the other hand, I've re-watched Cumberbatch's Sherlock, Netflix's Daredevil, and Spartacus from beginning to end.

If they keep Gotham to 3 or 4 seasons, I'd be ok with it.

Liberty's Edge

The thing is while it does borrow much from the comic version. I never felt that Gotham was part of the comic continuity. Nor should it be imo. Thier certain stories that can't be told in a comic that can on a TV show. If you want gritty and realism in a batman comic. Personal code or no he would track the Joker down. Kill him. Make sure it's the really one and not a imposter. Then dump the body in the strongest acid so that he can't be brought back to life. Which won't ever happen. Then again comics are not know for their realism.

While Bruce should be having a personal code. Sometimes circumstances should force him both old and young to sometimes break it imo. Most situations involve more than the straight jacketed morality of black and white that we see in most DC comics. I have no interest in a character who stands by and let's innocents be hurt or killed because it breaks some sort of "code".

It's why a few comic fans dislike Kingdom Come as a comic. One villain goes too far. A hero loses and kills the villain in front of the public and Superman. The hero goes to court and gets acquitted and Superman goes on a rant in the courtroom about it being a mistake. The artist has everyone looking at Superman as if he is both a idiot and naive. No jury was going to convict the hero for what he did let alone the villain he murdered. At a certain point the average person has enough and they did.

What happened to Jerome was a shocker but I'm glad that it did. I liked the character and like the actor. He did a good job. A main character being removed cannot happen in a comic because of sales. It does make for good tv for me at least.


4 episodes out of 2 seasons really doesn't make you a main character...


Here is a thought
What if the Joker was Gotham itself

Jerome could be a component of the whole Joker, with the Joker himself being not so much a person but more of a physical manifestation of Gotham's Madness. Different traits, different pieces slowly accumulating in the psyche of the people of Gotham until the day Batman shows up. A trigger that causes all of that subliminal psychic fear to manifest as a killer clown known as the Joker.

The recent comics have certainly been hinting at the idea of the Joker being something more than just human


Greylurker wrote:

Here is a thought

What if the Joker was Gotham itself

Jerome could be a component of the whole Joker, with the Joker himself being not so much a person but more of a physical manifestation of Gotham's Madness. Different traits, different pieces slowly accumulating in the psyche of the people of Gotham until the day Batman shows up. A trigger that causes all of that subliminal psychic fear to manifest as a killer clown known as the Joker.

The recent comics have certainly been hinting at the idea of the Joker being something more than just human

No just no I pretend that such hints are nothing more than the incessant ravings of a lunatic.

Dark Archive Vendor - Fantasiapelit Tampere

I think it was good episode, but I'm sad to see Jerome go. He was a blast to watch, and I did not like how they handled his death. Maybe if he died via "Joker Death" so the body would not be found, that would have been great.

Theo's acting in the scene was so bad it was a miracle somebody bought it. Maybe Jerome distracted the audience out of it?

The Penguin and Bullock-part was actually my favorite part of the episode. Both actors are amazing and the tension of the scene was great.

The ending...I kinda liked it, but it was...hmm. I need to re-watch it and try to make my mind about it.


The ending was one of the goofiest things they've ever done on this show. It can be interpreted two or three ways, really, all of them stupid.

1.) Jerome's dad somehow laid a curse on Gotham. Somehow.

2.) Jerome's spirit lives on, possessing random people and making them insane.

3.) The people of Gotham apparently just decided t go nuts, for no real reason.

And I guess a fourth:

4.) It was a terrible, terrible pun ("Laughter is infectious!") and they should be ashamed.

Sovereign Court

havoc xiii wrote:
Greylurker wrote:

Here is a thought

What if the Joker was Gotham itself

Jerome could be a component of the whole Joker, with the Joker himself being not so much a person but more of a physical manifestation of Gotham's Madness. Different traits, different pieces slowly accumulating in the psyche of the people of Gotham until the day Batman shows up. A trigger that causes all of that subliminal psychic fear to manifest as a killer clown known as the Joker.

The recent comics have certainly been hinting at the idea of the Joker being something more than just human

No just no I pretend that such hints are nothing more than the incessant ravings of a lunatic.

Well it kinda makes sense. After all, joker is ridiculously hard to kill is he not?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

So this is not a show about Batman. This has been well established both in reality for a number of licensing issues and in the fantasy world of the show. Then, what IS it a show about?

I ask because it seems as schizophrenic as a villain from Arkham. It's a love triangle, with some cop drama and procedural stuff, saddled ham-handedly with the earliest elements of the mythos of the guy this show is NOT supposed to be about.

I wish they'd done something different.

When I first started tuning in it was for the mob stuff. Gotham, without Batman and his psycho villains, is still a really gritty crime town. It is all the worst elements of New York with a bit of a gothic flare.

So where is all of that?

I wish there were more mob stories, more drug pushers, more GCPD elements. Not a rushed hack-job to get Gordon into the commissioner job, but rather the early days of Jim Gordon, detective of the GCPD. Mob intrigue, gangs, and maybe the SLOW development of a certain female cat burglar.

Instead you've got a show which over and over again says "I'm NOT Batman" and then alludes to everything BUT the Dark Knight himself.

Pick a side. Find a direction. Live outside Bruce Wayne's shadow. Be bold Gotham. YOU'RE the star of the show, not some kid with a chip on his shoulder or a degenerate band of mental health patients. Take back your show Gotham, you've earned it.

Sovereign Court

So, I liked this episode quite a lot. Gotham seems to oscilate. One good episode, one bad.

Michael Chicklis was awesome. I always loved seeing him in shows or movies. I wonder how long will his characer wurvive.


I have a feeling that Chicklis's character is a "plant" by this mysterious person giving orders to Galavan.


GM Niles wrote:
I have a feeling that Chicklis's character is a "plant" by this mysterious person giving orders to Galavan.

What mysterious person is that?


I heard in an online interview, probably on Hulu, that they were going to introduce a mentor for Gorden.


In the previews for next week they show Galavan taking orders regarding Bruce Wayne from a mysterious looking guy with a hood on.

At least that is what it looked like at 4am while I was feeding my 6 month old...I could be WAY off.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I thought the preview looked like him negotiating with an ally - along the lines of "don't worry, Bruce Wayne should be yours soon" with the implication being "once you do what I've asked you to".


I think the show runners said the Court of Owls was coming.


Ah, okay. I didn't see the preview.

Scarab Sages

Finally caught up.

Spoiler:
I'm a bit iffy about the implications of the Court of Owls, mostly just because it's after my time collecting Batman. Although, from what I've seen, it was one of the better things to come to Batman comics in a long time.

Come on Penguin - man up. You're smarter (and probably more psycho) than Theo.

Love the gratuitous girl on girl scenes, even if they are tame. Thank you, show writers.

I do not like the implications that Alfred will be the one who trains Bruce to be Batman. Hopefully, they will eventually send the lad off in search of better teachers.

Silver St. Cloud! Interesting.....

Sovereign Court

Remember it's not Penguin yet... it's still YOUNG Penguin... wait 'till he gets more XPs... ..... ;)

Scarab Sages

True. He doesn't even have his monocle, top hat, or trick umbrellas...yet.

Although, I did read somewhere that Paul Rubens was going to be brought in as Daddy Cobblepot. That could be both awesome and extraordinarily terrifying.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Not to mention, I feel really sorry for Theo when either(a) Momma Cobblepot dies, or (b) Penguin succeeds in rescuing her.


I do like Young Penguin. At the moment he is ambitious but in over his head, there is a lot more involved than just being the boss and telling people what to do and he's learning that being on top means constantly kicking at those trying to climb up. But you can see it building in him, he's learning, he's adapting, he's making mistakes and misteps but they aren't wasted, he learns from everything, as well as the big lesson that there is always a bigger fish.


I'm gonna miss Jerome.
I can't wait to see Theo get what's coming to him.

I do wish Selena would amount to something more substantial than a series of cameos.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I do miss watching Penguin. He was always entertaining on the show, even at its worst.

Then I remember Barbara. The forgetting is easy then.

Scarab Sages

Yeah, Barbara's been making it easy to forget other crap. Her scenes with Tabitha are....distracting. In a good way.

Sovereign Court

Ah the lady and lady scenes: the great redeemer for all actresses of debatable skills.... :)

Scarab Sages

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Ah the lady and lady scenes: the great redeemer for all actresses of debatable skills.... :)

Not to mention, it's just enjoyable to watch.


Aberzombie wrote:

True. He doesn't even have his monocle, top hat, or trick umbrellas...yet.

Although, I did read somewhere that Paul Rubens was going to be brought in as Daddy Cobblepot. That could be both awesome and extraordinarily terrifying.

My mind keeps flashing to a mental picture of an even more twisted Pee Wee.

"Remember kids, when you hear the secret word, make your hostage scream real loud!"

I should feel ashamed, but I don't.

Scarab Sages

That was some dumb ass shit.

Spoiler:
Seriously? A f#$#ing trying-and-failing-to-be-creepy backstory about forbidden love and the EVIL Waynes of old cutting peoples hands off and wiping them from history. Then said outcast family becoming a bunch of cult nutjobs, bent on revenge?

"THAT KNIFE IS EEEEEVVVIL!!!"

Firefly chick I'm guessing is the future Momma Lynns. How quickly she went from "ooh...I'm scared of fire" to "burn, baby burn. disco inferno". And next episode preview shows her as going even further down the path of "at the writer's convenience".

Goddamnit, Penguin! Why'd you have to go and (a)point out rather blatantly that Butch's "conditioning" still works, and then (b)chop off the poor bastard's hand. Now you've pretty much guaranteed he's going to break his conditioning, betray you by siding with Galavan for real, and eventually try to kill you. Which sucks, because I like Butch and now the writer's will probably have to kill him off.

So, Penguin now knows why Galavan is doing what he's doing. And who his real target of revenge is. I wonder if the writers will let him do the logical thing and bring this information to Gordon, thus exposing Galavan's true motive to the one person who might actually be able to do something about it? Or, will they make Penguin keep the knowledge to himself until some more convenient time further into the season?

I noticed that one of the other "EVIL" powerful old families was the Elliots.

The new Edward/Kristin thing - maybe it's just me, but she had a change of heart about him rather quickly.

I did like Penguins crack about penguins thriving in deep water. That was kind of cool.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aberzombie wrote:

That was some dumb ass s$~+.

** spoiler omitted **

I might have been too distracted by forums while reading, but my read was that the fear wasn't supernatural. It was more of a fear of what it represents and who it indicates is coming out of the woodwork.

Dark Archive Vendor - Fantasiapelit Tampere

The backstory stuff was ok to me, bit silly but I'm already expecting that from Gotham. I really liked Penguin scenes and the Firefly. I just hope that they do not kill her in the next episode. I like her.

One thing popped to my mind with scenes with Selena- what happened to Ivy? She kinda vanished, or does my memory fail me?

Scarab Sages

Berinor wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:

That was some dumb ass s$~+.

** spoiler omitted **

I might have been too distracted by forums while reading, but my read was that the fear wasn't supernatural. It was more of a fear of what it represents and who it indicates is coming out of the woodwork.

No, nothing supernatural, just super-idiotic.

Scarab Sages

Rosgakori wrote:
One thing popped to my mind with scenes with Selena- what happened to Ivy? She kinda vanished, or does my memory fail me?

Good riddance, I say. Seems all they ever did was use her as a bit of window dressing. She's another (potential) future Bat Villain, and deserved more than that.


So I'll ask again; this show is ostensibly about the young career of Jim Gordon right? Why then

Spoiler:
do we meet the "strike force" mid raid on Penguin's counting house, then they gloss over the whole arson investigation summing it up with one scene of explanation with Bullock?

This season so far seems all shock and style but no substance. Gordon so far seems like a "top cop" only because he beats people up good. Meanwhile there's this whole backstory thing of the Waynes and stuff that happened 200 years ago but the none of that really adds anything overall.

I like Penguin, and not JUST because he's silly and well acted. I like that there's an element of organized crime and would like to see more of that. And not the 80's hair band mob either. What happened to all the full on mobsters from Falcone and Maroni's organizations?

This show just seems like it's trying so hard to pile on all the "bat" elements that its just becoming this big mess of "every flavor beans" eaten all at once.


It doesn't help Gotham's situation when they're in the same time slot as The Voice. They have stiff ratings competition. Unless the bigwigs count other sources of ratings (on-demand, hulu, netflix et al)/viewership, Gotham could be in trouble.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I thought Penguin mentioned the conditioning still works so that newer or casual viewers would know that Butch had the conditioning to do whatever Penguin said even if he didn't want to...not necessarily that it's foreshadowing that it wouldn't work in the future.


Amputation might contribute to Butch's conditioning breaking. Or it might not. He was fighting it with each shot...

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