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Coming from you, this is even more ridiculous than it would be from some other random poster.I'm very happy to see the community's conservatives flocking to this thread to discuss this topic in a way that is reasonable and not at all crazy and hyperbolic. I am furthermore delighted to see the droves of responsible conservatives chastising their non-existent brethren for their totally-not-happening crazy and hyperbolic behavior, in a way that makes it clear that they disagree with the representations in question and that they are not an accurate representation of wider conservative beliefs, instead of marking crazy and hyperbolic posts as their favorites.
Absolutely thrilled. I mean, wow, forum conservatives. Now, this is how you earn respect!
That's it! Hand-wave that criticism away! It's not like the conservative movement is strangling on its own bitterness and hemorrhaging entire demographics! Now is definitely not the time for thoughtful self-reflection and a reexamination of your principles in the face of repeated failures and widespread public disgrace! I mean, cleaning house? Why would you do that when you so obviously have a unified base that easily agrees on a set of core principles and doesn't regularly embarrass you in the public sphere?
This thread went downhill fast. I'm disappointed, but not shocked.
...Hand-wave that criticism away! It's not like your movement is strangling on its own bitterness and hemorrhaging entire demographics! Now is definitely not the time for thoughtful self-reflection and a reexamination of your principles in the face of repeated failures and widespread public disgrace!To be fair, S.B., Kthulhu has little to no influence over the behavior and failures of the Republican Party as a whole. In fact, almost none of the base that the GOP relies on have any control over that behavior or those failures. Honestly, I feel that almost all the voters in the US... Democratic voters too... are in the "Well, I have to vote for one of them" mindset. Which is unsurprising, since decades of propaganda, gerrymandering and social engineering have been put into ensuring just such a mindset. It saddens me that we do not have a box for every political office, on every ballot, marked, "I reject these candidates; come back when you have some good ones".
I always liked the idea that no political party names show up on ballots at all, only candidates' names. You know, so you actually have research who it is your voting for and not just put a vote down for your "team".
To be fair, S.B., Kthulhu has little to no influence over the behavior and failures of the Republican Party as a whole.
I'm not suggesting that he does - merely that it might be a good start to begin by marginalizing the most radical elements of your own ideological group when possible, so that they have less of a chance of hijacking the platform you identify with - for instance, when you encounter them in a thread like this!
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You know Gore MIGHT be given some leeway on the fuel wasting flights if he made an effort to use the most fuel efficient plane possible, and even then only by "better to kill a few to save many" morality but his so very NOT green home burning energy like mad he has no excuse for. This is not a democrat/republican thing, i just hate him.
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...when it comes to Congressional elections for example, at this point I'd rather have a corrupt Democrat than an honest Republican...Oh, jeez, not me. I'd rather have the other party honestly representing a genuine difference of opinion among the electorate, rather than representing whatever their contributors order (oh, I meant "lobby") them to represent. While I respect the right of others to disagree, and (sigh) even their right to do something selfish by right of superior numbers, I disagree with their privilege to do something selfish by right of superior riches.
OK, I just saw one of the Republicans out there nod as if I have a point. Was it you?!
I would rather have a person that honestly cares about the nation and pays attention to the consequences of actions regardless of party. Both tend to jump to ideology and not take a long look at what that will do.
Also both are owned by the same corporate masters so fixing that is the first step| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, jeez, not me. I'd rather have the other party honestly representing a genuine difference of opinion among the electorate, rather than representing whatever their contributors order (oh, I meant "lobby") them to represent.
You're assuming that the honest Republican would have a genuine difference of opinion with party leadership. While this is possibly true, there are a lot of opinions out there that are even more bonkers than the ones espoused by party leadership, and the Tea Party has been exploring many of them. And a lot of the Republicans honestly believe the nonsense that the party is spouting.
I'd rather have our leadership make the right decision for the wrong reason than make the wrong decision for the right reason. If someone really does believe that the Bill of Rights only applies to Christians (e.g., the Williams Tea Party group of Coconino County, Arizona), having them honestly try to implement that particular theocratic-fascist agenda is not better than having them implement it dishonestly.....
Agreed. Which is one reason that the leftists should police their ranks as well.
OMG...
This thread is starting to have some awesome in it!
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9 11 happens. Never would have happened with bush in charge.
Instead of a massive invasion , we respond with small, mobile infantry and intelligence units. Pundits gripe about the 3 years they take to find ossama, wishing that if bush were elected he would have been blown up in mere days.
Curveball pitches the second us invasion of iraq. Is laughed out of the office and sent to drive a cab instead of dictating american foreign policy.
The economy crashes. Never would have happened with Bush in charge.
Al Gore makes electric cars a condition of the auto bail out, cutting our dependance on foreign oil by 2%
Gore makes re-instituting the Glass Steagall act a condition of bailing out the banks.
Wallstreet occupied. Blame gore. May as well have voted for bush.
boobie trapping trees (spiking) is intended to hurt loggers. terrorism
You don't usually call ahead to tell people where the spikes are if you're trying to hurt them.
boobie trapping trees (spiking) is intended to hurt loggers. terrorism
Yes, but it's intended to hurt loggers who are breaking the law. At least the instances that I've heard about.
For example, there are sections of the Chequamegon that house endangered species and have been marked out not to be forested, but if loggers go in there and clear cut the right couple acres they'll kill what's meant to be protected. Once the species is eradicated there's no longer any reason to protect that area of forest, right? So the logging companies risk getting caught, make excuses about "accidentally" cutting down the wrong plot, and then plow through later once it has been reclassified. It's dirty, it's unethical, and it's illegal.
"Spiking" those trees will only hurt loggers if they are breaking the law.
Cool.
I'll set up a claymore at my doors and windows.
It'll only blow in half people that are breaking the law.
Cool.
I'll set up a claymore at my doors and windows.
It'll only blow in half people that are breaking the law.
Except it will also blow up the mailman.
We're not talking about landmines, dude. A closer (if perhaps more ridiculous) analogy would be to walk around with explosives that are only set off if you're intentionally shot and killed.
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You're assuming that the honest Republican would have a genuine difference of opinion with party leadership. While this is possibly true, there are a lot of opinions out there that are even more bonkers than the ones espoused by party leadership, and the Tea Party has been exploring many of them. And a lot of the Republicans honestly believe the nonsense that the party is spouting.
I also presume that there are a lot of Democrats that honestly believe the nonsense that side spouts as well.
The truth is that BOTH parties have both good people in them as well as corrupt people.
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I also presume that there are a lot of Democrats that honestly believe the nonsense that side spouts as well.
The truth is that BOTH parties have both good people in them as well as corrupt people.
Okay, no one's disagreeing, but it's a matter of orders of magnitude.
Like "look, look, we've both made mistakes. I killed 117 innocent people, ate their flesh and wore their skin like a prom dress. You lied to your mom about having done your homework that one time WE'RE NONE OF US PERFECT!"
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"Spiking" those trees will only hurt loggers if they are breaking the law.
What if they're not knowingly breaking the law? Or what if it was that, or get fired and lose their home?
The ends do not justify the means. Spiking is wrong, period.
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I also presume that there are a lot of Democrats that honestly believe the nonsense that side spouts as well.
The truth is that BOTH parties have both good people in them as well as corrupt people.
Yeah, Paul Krugman wrote about the false equivalence fallacy a week or so ago. I'll let him speak (write?) for himself.
Basically, you make that presumption too facilely.
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I also presume that there are a lot of Democrats that honestly believe the nonsense that side spouts as well.
Come on. You don't really think that the amount and intensity of nonsense coming out of the two parties is even close to comparable, do you? The Republican Party is the perfect storm of amoral manipulators and ignorant, arrogant constituents more than happy to simply repeat whatever they've heard from the conservative grapevine.
Seriously, tree spiking has hurt like, one guy. (probably because the damned hippies didn't know you try to get as low to the ground as possible andget every board foot out of it you can.. )
Probably saved more loggers with the day off when they phoned in the threat. And that was a mill opperator.
"Spiking" those trees will only hurt loggers if they are breaking the law.What if they're not knowingly breaking the law? Or what if it was that, or get fired and lose their home?
The ends do not justify the means. Spiking is wrong, period.
Meh. I clearly don't put the life of a single criminal above the biodiversity of old-growth forest and the welfare of federally protected endangered species.
Cool.
I'll set up a claymore at my doors and windows.
It'll only blow in half people that are breaking the law.
I assume that you're being facetious here, so I don't have to explain why that is a bad idea, and rightfully illegal.
Again, compare with other cases of politically motivated bombings and murders that are only called terrorism by people to the left of the Democratic party. That result in actual dead people.
OK, I know about the abortion clinic bombings and Oklahoma City, but is there anything else you have in mind?
You're assuming that the honest Republican would have a genuine difference of opinion with party leadership. While this is possibly true, there are a lot of opinions out there that are even more bonkers than the ones espoused by party leadership, and the Tea Party has been exploring many of them. And a lot of the Republicans honestly believe the nonsense that the party is spouting.I also presume that there are a lot of Democrats that honestly believe the nonsense that side spouts as well.
The truth is that BOTH parties have both good people in them as well as corrupt people.
What nonsense?!?!?
Again, I'm talking politicians here, not someone's fantasy of a liberal.That's the kind of thing I keep hearing and rarely get a response on?
Gay marriage? Backed by most of the US population.
Climate change? Scientific consensus.
Universal health care, like the rest of the developed world
Basic Keynesian economics and the social safety net?Seriously where's the Democratic nonsense that's the equal of what we see in the mainstream Republican side?
Even in the Republican primary debates? You've got evolution sceptics. Global warming deniers.
The left wing equivalent of laissez faire free market economics, which gets at least lip service from huge chunks of the Republican party would be actual socialism - public ownership of the means of production, which no part of the Democratic party is willing to even talk about.
And that's ignoring the real crazy conspiracy theory stuff which has hit mainstream, birthers and the like. Actual elected politicians and serious candidates questioning the President's citizenship.What nonsense are we talking about here? Where's the crazy on the Democratic side?
We could take a look at the attacks on people praying.
The removal of monuments decades old because they have an image of a cross.The banning of Christmas songs, or even the word Christmas in schools.
The failure to call terrorists terrorists.
McCain birthers. McCain's eligibility even went to court.
US citizenship for everyone, unless you try to get in legally.
Then there are the four dead in Benghazi, the IRS harassment of conservative PACs, the 40+ dead in the Arizona VA hospital, Obama's murder of US citizens, the handling of the ranchers in Nevada (and I think the ranchers are in the wrong here).
Do I need to go on?
I included links for the various Obama controversies, just in case you had missed the seconds of coverage that the big three networks gave the stories.
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This thread went downhill fast. I'm disappointed, but not shocked.
And by fast you mean by post 2, right?
I mean the OP was basically posted at the edge of the cliff and waiting to be pushed off.
hardly Jeff....
He was doing the Wiley Coyote waiting to look down thing.
Thread's doing fine; as to trolling, though, you guys could stop trying to bait me.
Meh. I clearly don't put the life of a single criminal above the biodiversity of old-growth forest and the welfare of federally protected endangered species.
Implying that those who don't support spiking do? Besides, you're stretching the definition of "criminal" a bit, aren't you? What if the person wasn't aware? Or even if he was, a jaywalker is a "criminal" -- is violence justified against a jay-walker? Blatant equivocation.
That argument is fallacy-packed...not to mention beneath you.
We could take a look at the attacks on people praying.
Oh goody. Christian siege mentality. What attacks on people praying?
The removal of monuments decades old because they have an image of a cross.
Not an attack on people praying...simply upholding separation of church and state. That's your example of crazy?
The banning of Christmas songs, or even the word Christmas in schools.
Ditto.
The failure to call terrorists terrorists.
McCain birthers. McCain's eligibility even went to court.
US citizenship for everyone, unless you try to get in legally.
Then there are the four dead in Benghazi, the IRS harassment of conservative PACs, the 40+ dead in the Arizona VA hospital, Obama's murder of US citizens, the handling of the ranchers in Nevada (and I think the ranchers are in the wrong here).
Do I need to go on?
You lost me. How is any of that remotely related to prayer? Or are we on to a more general "crazy" from the left?
McCain birthers I agree with...they're looney. Though how many of those are there, exactly, especially compared to Obama birthers?
I literally know of no one advocating citizenship for everyone except those that try to get in legally. Link?
VA problems have been going on for decades. Besides, is there someone on the left going "yeah, let's screw those veterans?" This doesn't even remotely make sense.
Obama has continued what most people on the left agrees are illegal drone strikes. Again, no one is advocating them.
Ranchers in Nevada? Please. They're lucky they didn't get arrested.
I included links for the various Obama controversies, just in case you had missed the seconds of coverage that the big three networks gave the stories.
Sorry, but I don't find those credible. Especially Benghazi. They reek of manufacture and desperation. But bonus points for calling them controversies (which they clearly are, though they shouldn't be) instead of scandals.
The funny thing is that there are some crazy left positions out there...you just apparently don't know what any of them are. :P
Meh. I clearly don't put the life of a single criminal above the biodiversity of old-growth forest and the welfare of federally protected endangered species.Implying that those who don't support spiking do? Besides, you're stretching the definition of "criminal" a bit, aren't you? What if the person wasn't aware? Or even if he was, a jaywalker is a "criminal" -- is violence justified against a jay-walker? Blatant equivocation.
That argument is fallacy-packed...not to mention beneath you.
...which is why those that spiked trees, as has been said in this thread, always notified the people doing the cutting.
Look, I won't go into it in too much depth, but I know people who have been working for decades to stop the logging in these areas, and there's no way the loggers don't know what they're doing is illegal. There's a long process, involving marking trees that are okay to chop, etc. Moreover, they've been told by their bosses that the nonprofit advocates trying to stop the logging are their enemies who will cost them their jobs if they don't just keep their heads down and do what they're told.
EDIT: Turns out that one single guy that was ever killed by tree spiking was actually only injured. For the most part, tree spiking is done to destroy the machinery used in deforestation.
Yeah, the nonsense that the left is spouting...which he heard about second hand from Douche Limbaugh.
Meat: the hurt guy was an innocent. He was running the bandsaw that was chopping up a tree that MAY have been spiked by tree hugging hippies. (or for all we know the spike could have been in there since the timber wars)
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We could take a look at the attacks on people praying.
The removal of monuments decades old because they have an image of a cross.
The banning of Christmas songs, or even the word Christmas in schools.
The failure to call terrorists terrorists.
McCain birthers. McCain's eligibility even went to court.
US citizenship for everyone, unless you try to get in legally.
Then there are the four dead in Benghazi, the IRS harassment of conservative PACs, the 40+ dead in the Arizona VA hospital, Obama's murder of US citizens, the handling of the ranchers in Nevada (and I think the ranchers are in the wrong here).Do I need to go on?
No. You need to move on. You need to stop bringing up fake crises that are blown out of proportion on the rare occasion that they're not manufactured out of whole cloth just because some right wing talk show host sounded really really angry about them. Everything you bring up is simply a non issue.
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Which is one reason that the leftists should police their ranks as well.
Agreed.
[Points to the Democrats]
You, you and you.
[Jerks thumb over shoulder]
Get the f+%~ outta here. Am-scray!
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Which is one reason that the leftists should police their ranks as well.
Agreed.
[Points to the Democrats]
You, you and you.
[Jerks thumb over shoulder]
Get the f!~& outta here. Am-scray!
Yes. Around here, we call those "primaries" or "caucuses." At a higher level, they're committee assignments and decisions about chairs. For example, putting a known Randroid in charge of the House Budget Committee is a decision only an idiot would make, in the same way that you don't hire drug addicts to run your pharmacy.
Congressional Democrats (and Republicans, for that matter) have a lot of autonomy and leeway about putting foxes or hens in charge of henhouses. This, in turn, means that they can be validly criticized when they pander to nutcases instead of marginalizing them.
As I believe you said above*, the Democrats are a center-right party. As the board's resident leftist, as a matter of basic hygiene, all you Dems: take a hike!
*Woops, wrong thread.