What's your trick?


Advice

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Avoron wrote:

Nice catch with the vestigial arm FAQ, I didn't spend enough time looking through that topic. I suppose the build is still pretty nice without it. There are other ways to get more talon, gore, or slam attacks if you really want them, but they require dipping. You can get tentacle or sting attacks just by getting magic items to further increase that total.

There is, however, another way of looking at it. The FAQ says it doesn't let you get a number of attacks per round greater than the number you would have if you didn't have the arms or tentacle. It specifically says you can use them to have more attack options at a given time, which you can use at your desire as long as you do not exceed your normal number of attacks in a round (such as using a tentacle and a dagger in a full attack instead of two daggers). Now, my first instinct (and yours too, it seems) was to think of the character as having a maximum of 5 attacks per round: bite/claw/claw/rake/rake. This is not quite the case. The character has a maximum of 9 attacks per round: unarmed strike/unarmed strike/unarmed strike/off hand unarmed strike/bite/claw/claw/rake/rake. Those attacks would have lots of penalties and many of them would provoke attacks of opportunity, but they are still all viable attack options that the character could take in a single full attack action. So, you could use the discoveries in a cool way that seems to match up exactly with their intent: take 8 attacks, which is less than your total number per round, but instead use bite/claw/claw/rake/rake/aspect of the beast claw/aspect of the beast claw/tentacle. You don't get extra attacks, but you get more attack options that you use in place of other attacks to avoid extreme penalties from using unarmed strikes, using two-weapon fighting, and combining manufactured and natural attacks.

That still seems to go against the clearly stated intent of that FAQ- the ' this is a low level discovery, it is not meant to make you very strong' part.

Plus, a natural attack routine with unarmed strikes seems like it is of a very different character than just a pure natural attack routine. I am fairly sure unarmed strikes trigger the 'manufactured weapon' clause that makes everything secondary. since they get iteratives and do TWF stuff. So that is a rather apple/oranges switch that also goes against the direct stated intent of the discovery.

I am not sure how others would rule this, and honestly I have been through too many threads about all this. I will leave this issue alone, if only because it is off topic.

SO how about a happier, more relevant topic instead? How many people use lunge with reach builds? I find that as a fantastic combination, even though it doesn't expand your threatened area for AoO's. Instead, it allows you to position things so they are more likely to draw AoO's from you.

Normally, wtih reach builds, you end your turn with the enemy 10' away. That means they only need to take a 5' step to get to you. Ergo, they get their full attack and don't draw an AoO.

With lunge, you end your turn with the enemy 15' away. They often have to move 10' to get to you, and that means that they draw an AoO and likely lose their full attack. Thus, you can get AoO's off more often, and you get a defensive position that can be well worth the -2 AC.

Also, you can full attack anything within a 45' circle if you take a 5' step. So that is always nice.


Teamwork. A well built fighter is good. A well built fighter with haste, heroism, and enlarge is massively better. A well built fighter with haste, heroism, enlarge and the cleric flanking the target is frikking awesome.

Would not call it a trick except that most games I've seen have people act as if their team-mates were just other combatants who happened to be fighting the same enemies, rather than partners and allies.

Silver Crusade

Gregory Connolly wrote:
Rulership variant negative channeling. Take Selective Channel and just daze everyone but the party. You have to follow Dispater to pull this of in PFS.

No longer true! This used to be the case, but the 2014 release of Gods of Ancient Osirion now gives the wanna-be PFS hangover cleric much more palatable options. Horus and Ra also work. They even have some pretty decent domains.

In the spirit of the thread here's a martial PC schtick:

Start with a battle-competent Cleric, Inquisitor, or Paladin (4th level & archetype required) with the Plant (Growth) domain. With proper tactics this ability can easily generate an AoO versus multiple foes, practical maximum 2-3 per round. That's 2-3 extra attacks each round at 1.5x STR and 1.5x Power Attack. Basically, this ability allows one to fish for (nearly guaranteed) AoOs at 15' and 20' distance, where foes can't 5' step in. Also, tactical use of this domain provides a free 'virtual 5' step', which turns out to be a powerful offensive and defensive ability: this PC need never take a full attack, yet can always full attack the enemy.


I have a Bard and a Sorcerer who have both taken dazzling display and ranks in intimidate.

1) The basic plan is to up my spell DCs by 2 through the shaken condition
2) Effectively raise my party's AC by 2 for a only a full round action
3) Conserve spells because I'm casting less and making them more effective
4) Have something helpful to do when I do run out of spells


Playing a combat cleric a little different:
Divine Strategist cleric (plus to initiative, lvl 8 +int bonus to AoO and flanking)
Animal, Feather Subdomain (i.e. Ra, I like the desert theme)
Animal Companion: Wolf/hyena/anything works
Outflank
Manacing Weapon
High Int High Str
Improved Innitiative
Level 8 flanking: 6 (Bab) + 2 (flank) + 2 (outflank) + 2 (menacing) + 4 (int, minumum) + 3-4 (str) = +20 before buffs to hit

Add buffs (Divine Power, Bless Ferovr, Magic Wep, greater), perhaps reach, kirin strike, monk level (flurry) if you want more attacks.

Dark Archive

Here's a thing I'm toying around with.

A properly Sorcerer with a Draconic (Bronze) bloodline can love Shocking Grasp in ways that'll make a Magus want to high five them. Human works best because feat tax.

Taking the Magical Lineage trait, the Reach Spell metamagic feat and Spontaneous Metafocus means that you'll be able to throw electric Hadokens at range right out the gate. Add in Intensified spell for later levels and it can go up to 10d6+10 per hit, still at range if you don't mind a second level spell. Whip up a quicken spell and you'll be able to slap on another 10d6+5 on the same turn.

Depending on how the rules for the mutated bloodlines go, you can use an archetype to double-dip bloodlines and deal even more damage. Draconic plus Primal (a mutation of Elemental) means that you get 2 damage to each die rolled for electricity spells. Losing the extra spells known isn't a big deal since your bread-and-butter comes at level 1 regardless.

And of course, you can pile on the benefits with Point Blank Shot, and still remain a fairly diverse caster since the entire rest of your spell selection is up to personal preference. When resistances and immunity inevitably become a factor, just pick up some alternate elemental feats, or just keep some backup blast spells.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Wayang Shadowcaster Illusionist: Has Greater Spell Focus (Illusion), Wayang Magic, and Shadow Stencils, meaning illusions with the [Shadow] descriptor get +4 to their DCs.

What's Wayang Magic and Shadow Stencils referring to? I can't find them.

Something I've become obsessed with trying out lately is an Undine waves spirit Shaman with the Crashing Waves hex and the Steam Caster feat.

Not just for fireballs, but for flame blades and produce flame!


nate lange wrote:
i like the Wis based melee cleric...

So much yes. To go a step further into weird Wisdom territory:

Martial Artist 1 / Hei-Feng Cleric X, Protean and ?

AB, DC, AC, CMD from Wisdom; Damage primarily from Cleric buffs and two-handed Power Attack 9-ring broadsword flurry. Then more hijinks:

Conductive Weapon: Channel your Domain powers through your 9-ring - Touch of Chaos by 9-ring chop.
Cornugon Stun: High-Wisdom Stunning Fist by 9-ring a few times a day; add Mantis Style if you really want to work this trick. Bonus if they're save is really gimped by your debuffs.
AOE: Aura of Chaos, Aura of Doom make foes pay for letting you get near them.
Ecclisetheurge & Inquisition: grab a holy bond and put your domains to work while taking the Reformation or Heresy inquisition to use your Wisdom for huge social and maybe combat leverage...
Cornugon Smash: Wisdom-based intimidate fun - especially if Aura of Doom already has them shaking.
Hurtful: If you're allowed to take this, cross with Cornugon Smash for even more flailing 9-ring fun.
And of course, you've got the spell level and DC of a committed caster Cleric -1.


lemeres wrote:
Avoron wrote:

Nice catch with the vestigial arm FAQ, I didn't spend enough time looking through that topic. I suppose the build is still pretty nice without it. There are other ways to get more talon, gore, or slam attacks if you really want them, but they require dipping. You can get tentacle or sting attacks just by getting magic items to further increase that total.

There is, however, another way of looking at it. The FAQ says it doesn't let you get a number of attacks per round greater than the number you would have if you didn't have the arms or tentacle. It specifically says you can use them to have more attack options at a given time, which you can use at your desire as long as you do not exceed your normal number of attacks in a round (such as using a tentacle and a dagger in a full attack instead of two daggers). Now, my first instinct (and yours too, it seems) was to think of the character as having a maximum of 5 attacks per round: bite/claw/claw/rake/rake. This is not quite the case. The character has a maximum of 9 attacks per round: unarmed strike/unarmed strike/unarmed strike/off hand unarmed strike/bite/claw/claw/rake/rake. Those attacks would have lots of penalties and many of them would provoke attacks of opportunity, but they are still all viable attack options that the character could take in a single full attack action. So, you could use the discoveries in a cool way that seems to match up exactly with their intent: take 8 attacks, which is less than your total number per round, but instead use bite/claw/claw/rake/rake/aspect of the beast claw/aspect of the beast claw/tentacle. You don't get extra attacks, but you get more attack options that you use in place of other attacks to avoid extreme penalties from using unarmed strikes, using two-weapon fighting, and combining manufactured and natural attacks.

That still seems to go against the clearly stated intent of that FAQ- the ' this is a low level discovery, it is not meant to make you very strong' part.

Plus, a...

dot


lemeres wrote:
Avoron wrote:

Nice catch with the vestigial arm FAQ, I didn't spend enough time looking through that topic. I suppose the build is still pretty nice without it. There are other ways to get more talon, gore, or slam attacks if you really want them, but they require dipping. You can get tentacle or sting attacks just by getting magic items to further increase that total.

There is, however, another way of looking at it. The FAQ says it doesn't let you get a number of attacks per round greater than the number you would have if you didn't have the arms or tentacle. It specifically says you can use them to have more attack options at a given time, which you can use at your desire as long as you do not exceed your normal number of attacks in a round (such as using a tentacle and a dagger in a full attack instead of two daggers). Now, my first instinct (and yours too, it seems) was to think of the character as having a maximum of 5 attacks per round: bite/claw/claw/rake/rake. This is not quite the case. The character has a maximum of 9 attacks per round: unarmed strike/unarmed strike/unarmed strike/off hand unarmed strike/bite/claw/claw/rake/rake. Those attacks would have lots of penalties and many of them would provoke attacks of opportunity, but they are still all viable attack options that the character could take in a single full attack action. So, you could use the discoveries in a cool way that seems to match up exactly with their intent: take 8 attacks, which is less than your total number per round, but instead use bite/claw/claw/rake/rake/aspect of the beast claw/aspect of the beast claw/tentacle. You don't get extra attacks, but you get more attack options that you use in place of other attacks to avoid extreme penalties from using unarmed strikes, using two-weapon fighting, and combining manufactured and natural attacks.

That still seems to go against the clearly stated intent of that FAQ- the ' this is a low level discovery, it is not meant to make you very strong' part.

Plus, a...

To begin with, thank you for bringing Sap Master to my attention: awesome! I have to figure out a way to put that into my builds.

While getting 4 clawed arms on your Catgirl via the Vestigial Arms Alchemal Discovery will not get you 4 Claw attacks instead of 2, as an Alchemist, you could learn or get a Wand of Monstrous Physique, which you could use to polymorph into a 4-Armed Sahaugin and get your 4 claw attacks (and a bite) that way.

My favorite way to get extra attacks is via the Snake Fang Feat, taking 2-3 levels in Monk, Master of Many Styles. A multi-ability build in PFS can easily get a Dex of 16, and that means 4 Attacks of Opportunity and 1 Immediate Action Attack every round.

There is a psionic class, the Argent or something, the class that makes ectoplasmic armor. That class lets you grow 2 arms that you can use to make extra attacks.

The Feral Mutagen Alchemal Discovery gives anyone 2 Claw and 1 Bite attack.

As a Tengu, you can have 2 Claws and a Bite Attack.

1 level in White Haired Witch gives you a Hair Attack.

The Mammoth Helm gives you a Gore Attack.

The Tentacle Cloak gives you a Tentacle attack.

There are some magic items that give you bite attacks.

Most of those attacks I just mentioned aren’t that effective, but if you get to do your doubled and redoubled Sneak Attack damage with Sap Master, that’s not half bad.

I didn’t see your method for securing your Sneak Attack Damage. Improved Feint isn’t bad, but for a multiple attack build like this, I recommend Quick, Greater Dirty Trick. You’ll make your opponents Blind—no Dex bonus—then you score all that Sneak Attack damage at the cost of 1 attack/1d4 rounds.

If you take the Feral Combat Training Feat, your claw attacks can do the superior Monk Damage, and you will be able to use your claws for those Attacks of Opportunity. I do a lot of multiclass dipping, so my level 3 Monk Feat is Monastic Legacy, which lets ½ your nonmonk levels count as Monk levels for the purposes of damage. It sounds like you like to dip at least a little. Take the Improved Natural Weapon Feat, too. In builds I have done, the damage goes up to 1d8 by character level 5, 2d6 by 7, 2d8 by level 12 or 13, 3d8 by level 20 or 21. Sharp Claws and the Aspect of the Beast don’t stack with Feral Combat Training, unfortunately. And I do favor FCT over the Catfolk Claw feats.

What I was thinking of doing with all those natural attacks I mentioned above was to get the Final Embrace Feat via a 2 levels in White Haired Witch, then the Hair, the Bite, the Claws, and an Unarmed Strike all gain the benefit of Grab and Constrict and Armor Spike Damage. The Constrict damage will be your Claw damage, and if you get Sneak Attack, you get that for both the Natural Attack and for the Constrict. And we can use your idea of Sap Master, too, which will stack with the rest. And that means that the Sneak Attack Damage gets doubled, redoubled, and rolled twice for every attack!


Bump!

Sovereign Court

Lust domain cleric who makes opponents give him their most valuable item. Using reach + maximize + empower touch of idiocy to nullify spellcasters.

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