How would you rule this: Gravity Bow / Lead Blades and Ki Arrows?


GM Discussion

4/5

We have some table variation in our area regarding the combination of Gravity Bow or Lead Blades with the Zen Archer Ki Arrows class feature. There's no agreement on the forums, so I wanted to get your opinions.

Gravity Bow:
Gravity bow significantly increases the weight and density of arrows or bolts fired from your bow or crossbow the instant before they strike their target and then return them to normal a few moments later. Any arrow fired from a bow or crossbow you are carrying when the spell is cast deals damage as if one size larger than it actually is. For instance, an arrow fired from a Medium longbow normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if fired from a gravity bow. Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses your bow to make an attack the arrows deal damage as normal for their size

Lead Blades:
Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are. For instance, a Medium longsword normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if benefiting from lead blades. Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses one of your weapons to make an attack it deals damage as normal for its size.

Ki Arrows (Su):
At 5th level, a zen archer may spend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to change the damage dice of arrows he shoots to that of his unarmed strikes. This lasts until the start of his next turn. For example, a Medium zen archer's short bow normally deals 1d6 damage; using this ability, his arrows deal 1d8 damage until the start of his next turn. This ability replaces purity of body.

So here are a couple of scenarios, and I'd like to know how you would rule:
1) An 8th level Zen Archer casts Gravity Bow (from a wand/UMD). He then spends a ki point to make his arrows do the same damage as his unarmed strike (1d10). He fires an arrow, which increases in size just before it hits and does damage at one size category larger. Do these stack, making his arrows do 2d8?

2) A 5th level Zen Archer casts Lead Blades (from a wand/UMD), thereby increasing his unarmed strike damage from 1d8 to 2d6. He then spends a ki point to make his arrows do the same damage as his unarmed strike. Do these stack, making his arrows do 2d6?

3) If you ruled that Scenario 1 stacks, what about combining the two? Can a Zen Archer benefit from both Lead Blades and Gravity Bow at the same time? So a 5th Level Zen Archer casts Lead Blades so his unarmed strike does 2d6, then casts Gravity Bow, so his arrows do damage at one size category larger. Do these stack, making his arrows do 3d6?

Dark Archive 4/5

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As a player of a Zen Archer Venture Captain who's level 13 or something now:

#2 works. #1 does not work because ki arrows replaces the bow's usual damage with the unarmed strike damage, so enhancing the bow's damage is irrelevant. Thus #3 does not work.

However, enlarge person, lead blades, and ki arrows works. My usual favorite was instead enlarge person, gravity bow, prepurchasing size Large arrows, and not using ki arrows at all.

4/5

Mark Seifter wrote:

As a player of a Zen Archer Venture Captain who's level 13 or something now:

#2 works. #1 does not work because ki arrows replaces the bow's usual damage with the unarmed strike damage, so enhancing the bow's damage is irrelevant. Thus #3 does not work.

However, enlarge person, lead blades, and ki arrows works. My usual favorite was instead enlarge person, gravity bow, prepurchasing size Large arrows, and not using ki arrows at all.

That's how I read it, also. I was about to ask about Enlarge Person and Lead Blades--thanks for bringing that up.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Mark Seifter wrote:

As a player of a Zen Archer Venture Captain who's level 13 or something now:

#2 works. #1 does not work because ki arrows replaces the bow's usual damage with the unarmed strike damage, so enhancing the bow's damage is irrelevant. Thus #3 does not work.

However, enlarge person, lead blades, and ki arrows works. My usual favorite was instead enlarge person, gravity bow, prepurchasing size Large arrows, and not using ki arrows at all.

Don't the Large arrows you are carrying become Huge arrows when you Enlarge and are thus not usable in your bow?

though, I've heard of it working by having someone else carry your large arrows and hand them to you once enlarged.

4/5

Dhjika wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

As a player of a Zen Archer Venture Captain who's level 13 or something now:

#2 works. #1 does not work because ki arrows replaces the bow's usual damage with the unarmed strike damage, so enhancing the bow's damage is irrelevant. Thus #3 does not work.

However, enlarge person, lead blades, and ki arrows works. My usual favorite was instead enlarge person, gravity bow, prepurchasing size Large arrows, and not using ki arrows at all.

Don't the Large arrows you are carrying become Huge arrows when you Enlarge and are thus not usable in your bow?

though, I've heard of it working by having someone else carry your large arrows and hand them to you once enlarged.

You can also drop your large arrows and pick them up next round. If something leaves your possession when you're enlarged, it returns to it's normal size.

4/5

Yep, I have done both the dropping thing and the someone else carrying thing with Fasch. I agree that both ideas are good ones.

If you're a ki arrows user (which Fasch was not, she took the extra attack), the best you can do is strong jaw, enlarge person, and monk's belt, for 6d6 damage from level 8 on. After that, none of the other effects in the game right now are going to stack.

If you don't spend the high amounts of cash on the robes and the ability to have strong jaw and instead go for the more economic lead blades, that only 3d8 until Seeker levels. Only 3 extra damage over the 3d6 from not using ki arrows is not worth losing the extra attack from ki (but the 6d6 is totally worth it).

The other thing I don't like about those expenditures in terms of flexibility is that they are dependent on the combo. The robes' unarmed increase isn't worthwhile to have unless you also put up all the buffs too. However, some other zen archer players swear by it, so I guess it works if you have lots of cash and consistently know when to put up both short term prebuffs (or you have allies who like to give you high-CL versions of the buffs).

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