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So if I've researched correctly
You can gain access to MT by 4th level quite easily, but it is quite limiting.
Aasimar with Corruption resistance
Cleric with Fate Inquisition or Trickery Domain
So the rough build would be:
Cleric 1/Wizard 1/xxx1/Mystic Theurge 1/Evangelist 10/MT 6
Cleric or Druid or Shaman CL 17
Wizard or Witch or Arcanist CL 17
Would this be correct?
I realize this may not have been the intent of the developers, making a class like arcane heirophant from 3.5, but there we are.
You'd need one more level of mystic theurge to pick up the five skill ranks needed for evangelist since I don't see a way for you to cast a third level spell at level 4, but other than that I think you are correct.
Also it's not clear that getting a virtual level of Mystic Theurge of 11+ would actually give you anything. There is no line on the table saying that level 11 in the PrC gives you +1 arcane/+1 divine spellcasting, so you might have to choose to advance either wizard or cleric from that point.
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You'd need one more level of mystic theurge to pick up the five skill ranks needed for evangelist since I don't see a way for you to cast a third level spell at level 4, but other than that I think you are correct.
Correct, so the build would be
divine 1/arcane 1/xxx 1/MT 2/Evangelist 10/MT 5
The third level spell could be daylight from the aasimar if you went with the trickery domain ability - copycat. But that would skew the build.
Also it's not clear that getting a virtual level of Mystic Theurge of 11+ would actually give you anything. There is no line on the table saying that level 11 in the PrC gives you +1 arcane/+1 divine spellcasting, so you might have to choose to advance either wizard or cleric from that point.
Evangelists come from many different backgrounds, and they show an unusual range of diversity. At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.
The bold is my emphasis. She gains all class features of the aligned class.
The section (Spells per day: +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class), would be a class feature of Mystic Theurge correct? By RAW it should keep advancing just as the base class would, though you gain no other class features because MT's ability to combine spells maxes out at 5th level spells. By RAI, MT advances as normal, until you hit Evangelist which throws previous RAI out the window in some cases (in many cases).
If anything, we could use the really old rules from 3.0 for Epic Mystic Theurge. So the caster level decreases for the last 5 levels, but you gain epic levels before level 20.
But paizo does mention epic level play, so I don't mind getting epic level spellcasting from 3.0 (or any other epic benefits), which is more game breaking than dropping a ton of cheese on the game table.
Paizo Publishing may eventually publish rules to take your game into these epic realms, but if you can't wait and would rather not use existing open content rules for epic-level play, you can use the following brief guidelines to continue beyond 20th level. Note that these guidelines aren't robust enough to keep the game vibrant and interesting on their own for much longer past 20th level, but they should do in a pinch for a campaign that needs, say, 22 or 23 experience levels to wrap up. Likewise, you can use these rules to create super-powerful NPCs for 20th-level characters to face.
Scaling Powers
Hit dice, base attack bonuses, and saving throws continue to increase at the same rate beyond 20th level, as appropriate for the class in question. Note that no character can have more than 4 attacks based on its base attack bonus. Note also that, before long, the difference between good saving throws and poor saving throws becomes awkwardly large—the further you get from 20th level, the more noticeable this difference grows, and for high-level characters, bolstering their poor saving throws should become increasingly important. Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian's damage reduction, a fighter's bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin's smite evil, or a rogue's sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate.
Emphasis was mine, needed to read further down the advancing beyond 20th level to find a relevant ruling.
Avr raises an interesting question that's problematic for combining Evangelist with any prestige class, really. I believe the evangelist could benefit from a FAQ or two.
Edit: woops, looks like we cross-posted.
For convenience let's say you have a wizard 3/cleric 3 /mystic theurge 1 / evangelist 10 progressing his mystic theurge levels. He is treated as a level 10 mystic theurge, and casts as a 13th level wizard and 13th level cleric.
The question is what happens if he takes a second level of mystic theurge? He's now treated as an 11th level mystic theurge, which is not covered by the class progression table.
Personally I'd treat the evangelist progression as levels in the prestige class and be inclined to say that he is unable to take additional levels in Mystic Theurge unless and until the party enters epic levels. Should that happen we're firmly in homebrew anyway.
Indeed we have, it would seem.
While the class beyond 10th level is not covered on a table, I find a relevant ruling in the scaling powers section of play beyond 20th. Because there are no tables regarding play beyond the 20 levels of base classes or the levels beyond PRCs.
So again: Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian's damage reduction, a fighter's bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin's smite evil, or a rogue's sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate.
That is assuming that the (Spells per day: +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class), is a class ability that has a set increasing rate.
and I shall click the FAQ button...
One bit of bad news. Aasimars who have daylight will not meet the mt prerequisite of level 2 arcane spells by level 3 . Other than this, I love the concept
Could you abuse Retraining to make it Wiz 1/Cleric 1/Evangelist 1/MT 1/Evangelist?
Could you abuse Retraining to make it Wiz 1/Cleric 1/Evangelist 1/MT 1/Evangelist?
We cannot because of the 3rd level feat prerequisite.
@Sarrah
Aasimars have alternate facials to allow the work around.
The main issues now are:
Do prestige classes qualify for the aligned class ability of the evangelist NEC
Do virtual levels stack with actual levels of prcs if the ability does work
Can't retrain into prestiege class levels.
Also I've been doing some number crunching on this for my Mystic Theurge and I just don't think it's quite worth it.
I get a better chassis and some neat abilities but I have to give up a a level in spell casting. I'm already 1 level behind in 1 class, and 2 in the others.
I'm certain it makes a better looking lvl 20 build but it seems a lot worse during those mid levels (5-10)
Sad news. The alternate racial choices for aasimar that give the level 2 arcane prerequisite remove daylight (the level 3 prerequisite.
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It's a neat idea, but the problem is that Mystic Theurge just doesn't go above level 10. We can INFER what it might be like when we go above it by looking at the class entry as listed, but as it stands the class ends at 10th level. The ability says that her level is added to the other class' level to determine which features she gains, but the Mystic Theurge doesn't gain any features after 10th level.
an aasimar can do this...
periblooded aasimar
1) cleric w/trickery or fate 1 (or wood oracle w/bend the grain); [any feat]
2) wiz w/scryer subschool
3) wiz 2 (or cl if you prefer); deific obedience
4) MT 1 (qualify with pyrotechnics racial SLA and granted power SLA)
5+) evangelist (qualify with scryer SLA)
that doesn't answer the question of whether MT gains more double casting after 10th, but it does show that there's a need to figure that out...
If mt can be an aligned class, then the evangelist route is simply superior.
By my reading, you couldn't use Evangelist on a PRC. Thats how I read it anyways.
It seems like a very strong choice to go that route, if it works as Shasf describes. I...might want to try that now.
Though, I suppose it would also depend on whether or not it works on a PRC.
Its unclear if prc can be an aligned class. All the examples are base classes. Given not even nethys had mystic theurge listed it likely isn't intended.
Doing a little bit of a writeup to see the benefits and drawbacks of different approaches:
Cleric 1/ Wizard 2/ Theurge 2/ Evangelist 2 is level 7 and casts as a 4th level cleric and a 5th level wizard. He burns a feat and gains 4 skill ranks and 1 average HP per level. He does not gain any real class features from Theurge other than the spellcasting progression. A minor drawback is that he has to buy spells on level up.
Cleric 1/ Wizard 2/Theurge 4 is level 7 and casts as a 5th level cleric and 6th level wizard. He does not gain any real class features other than the spellcasting progression. A minor drawback is that he has to buy spells on level up.
A wizard 3/Evangelist 4 is level 7 and casts as a 6th level wizard. He burns a feat and gains 4 skill ranks and 1 average HP per level. He enters Evangelist before the theurge, and so benefits earlier from the skill ranks and hit die. A minor drawback is that he has to buy spells on level up.
A 7th level wizard casts as a 7th level wizard. He loses out on the skill ranks but has an extra feat (which he can burn on toughness to make up for the HP loss). He gains free spells per level.
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Okay, lots of responses about this.
By a strict reading of RAW of aligned class
Evangelists come from many different backgrounds, and they show an unusual range of diversity. At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.
No class can be an aligned class due to it not specifically calling out Core Classes, Base Class, or Prestige Classes and even if they could they would have to be of a female gender. That is a very very strict reading of the rules with the clarification of core and prestige. This would also be, I suppose asinine would be the term. IF we went with such strict readings.
However the wording in the ability:
At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class.
Definition of terms as listed on page 374 of the Core Rulebook
Core Class: One of the standard eleven classes found in Chapter 3.
Class Level: The level of a character in a particular class. For a character with only one class, class level and character level are the same.
Note the class level definition, it is any level of a class the character has. Whether or not it is a core class, prestige class, or base classes is irrelevant to the class.
So let's look at the Evangelist ability again.
Evangelists come from many different backgrounds, and they show an unusual range of diversity. At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.
At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class.
This class can be any class that the character has a level or levels in as per the definition of class level found on page 374.
So the aligned class ability works by RAW apparently with any class the character has prior to gaining the second level in the Evangelist PRC.
Now the next set of questions belongs to how certain classes interact with the prc if they get to higher levels. This is one such example:
Divine 3/Arcane 3/Mystic Theurge 1/Evangelist 10/Mystic Theurge 3
We have a virtual pool of 9 levels of Mystic Theurge and an actual pool of 4 levels in the prc. For a total calculation of 13 levels of the prestige class.
There are a very limited number of prestige classes that do not have the standard 10 levels and so no table is given to give their class abilities.
The core rulebook however gives players something that works just as well as a table. I've posted this earlier but it seemed to be ignored:
Hit dice, base attack bonuses, and saving throws continue to increase at the same rate beyond 20th level, as appropriate for the class in question. Note that no character can have more than 4 attacks based on its base attack bonus. Note also that, before long, the difference between good saving throws and poor saving throws becomes awkwardly large—the further you get from 20th level, the more noticeable this difference grows, and for high-level characters, bolstering their poor saving throws should become increasingly important. Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian's damage reduction, a fighter's bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin's smite evil, or a rogue's sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate.
Bold emphasis is mine. Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate with examples given in the text, continue to progress at the appropriate rate. The Mystic Theurge has a class ability that fits this definition.
The mystic theurge gives +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class at every level. This is a set increasing rate that continues to progress every level.
So does there need to be a table describing what the Mystic Theurge gives after 10th?
Sorry for that rant, but I spent the majority of work thinking about this since I didn't have anything that pressing to do.
So if that clears up the ability of the Evangelist, then would the build:
Race: Aasimar
Classes: Cleric (Fate inquisition/domain?) 1/Wizard (any) 1/Class 1/Mystic Theurge 1/Evangelist 10/Mystic Theurge 6 work?
I know it is not PFS legal because of the multi-classing, but the build in general, is that legal?
Anything that progresses Mystic Theurge past level 10 is way outside RAW/RAI and entirely up to the GM.
The guidelines Pathfinder offer for "post-epic" levels are exceedingly vague since they've never actually published epic rules and they're unlikely to do so - the Mythic rules set seems to be Paizo's version of "epic" levels.
However, Cleric (Fate inquisition/trickery domain) 1/wizard 1/x 1/ mystic theurge 1/evangelist 10 is entirely legitimate if you have a race that offers a 2nd level arcane spell-like ability.
They really need to fix that "spell-like" loophole. People are flying jumbojets through it.
Race: Aasimar
Classes: Cleric (Fate inquisition/domain?) 1/Wizard (any) 1/Class 1/Mystic Theurge 1/Evangelist 10/Mystic Theurge 6 work?
No, as someone pointed out earlier a base Aasimar doesn't meet the MT requirement to cast 2nd level arcane (since their SLA is 3rd) and the variants don't meet the 3rd level spell requirement for Evangelist (since their SLA is second). there is a workaround which i posted earlier (you need to be a variant aasimar and take the scryer wizard subschool, that way you get 2nd level arcane from racial and 3rd level whatever from scryer).
Oops, mistake in my previous post. It's meant to read:
However, Cleric (Fate inquisition/trickery domain) 1/wizard 1/x 1/ mystic theurge 2/evangelist 10 is entirely legitimate if you have a race that offers a 2nd level arcane spell-like ability.
Caught that mistake 1h and 3 minutes after posting. That's going to bother me all day >__<.
Thank you everyone for helping the discussion. (not sarcasm, I really mean it)
@Nate Lange
I was looking at your list and lists from other posts, now I'm trying to put it together.
The Angel, Archon-, Azata-, and Garuda-blooded all have the 2nd level arcane SLA.
scryer subschool - SLA counts as 3rd level arcane spell(s)
fate inquisition - SLA counts as 2nd level divine spell(s)
trickery domain - SLA counts as 2nd level arcane spell(s)
aasimar with alternate racials (not by blood but from the list since they can gain 2 SLAs that way)
Sadly, trickery domain, despite being an arcane spell, counts as divine for the purpose of meeting prcs and feats solely due to being a cleric class ability (according to the FAQ).
I'm not sure where to find the list of alternate SLAs for Aasimars.
Edit. Found the list. Randomly rolling a d100 and getting a 17, 28, 48, 55, 56, 86, 98 and maybe a couple others.
Ah, found the FAQ and the updates to clarify that, thanks Sarrah.
Race: Aasimar (bloodline or other alternate traits), or for more broken cheese, Drow Noble (they have lots of SLAs, most are arcane 2nd level)
Race: Drow Noble
Cleric of Nethys (Fate Inquisition/Domain) 1/Arcane class of choice 1/Class X 1/Mystic Theurge 1/Evangelist 10
Cleric CL 11
Arcane class CL 11
If Mystic Theurge is allowed to go past 10th level with the virtual levels granted, then the build finishes off with MT 6
Cleric CL 17
Arcane Class CL 17
Or if we went with:
Divine 1/Arcane 1/Class x 1/MT 7/Evangelist 10
Evangelist adds lots of flavor and flexibility, if you don't mind being a little more religious with your character.
Drow Noble Cleric of Nethys 1/Sorcerer (Empyreal Bloodline)/X 1/MT 1/Evangelist 10; this build works off of one casting stat, Wis.
sorc doesn't get 9th level spells until CL 18 so for the empyreal build (which is a solid way to go) you would definitely want to turn "X 1" into "sorc 2"...
disclaimer: all of my comments assume that applying evangelist to MT is even valid- i don't know for sure that it is... personally i'd allow it (you lose another caster level and delay 9th level spells all the way to 20th level) but definitely expect table variance on that...
sorc doesn't get 9th level spells until CL 18 so for the empyreal build (which is a solid way to go) you would definitely want to turn "X 1" into "sorc 2"...
disclaimer: all of my comments assume that applying evangelist to MT is even valid- i don't know for sure that it is... personally i'd allow it (you lose another caster level and delay 9th level spells all the way to 20th level) but definitely expect table variance on that...
I'm checking the FAQ and the rules section repeatedly, but I cannot find anything for or against the virtual levels.
I almost believe that the developers were making the prc strictly for PFS since the games do not generally go beyond 12th level.
Any ways though, I am posting this in the rules section also, to get more clarification because I would really like to try to make this as Pathfinder legal as possible without much DM Fiat.
I think I could even make a tiefling work for this build.
More mulling.
PRCs can't go higher than what they have shown in their table (some in fact have less then 10.)
However, that seems to me to raise an interesting point for ANY class and Evangelist. What happens when you stop being an Evangelist and go back to your base/core class?
The "essentially gaining" is suspicious, because it can be interpreted as an example of how the ability functions, not what the ability actually is. Dave's question is spot on.
What happens when you take classes X for 5 level, Evangelist for 2, and X for 1 more level?
Is this last level considered the 6th class level of X, or the 7th?
Most posters here seem to agree of it being the latter case.
I think it could reasonably be the former, but it opens another can of worms: in this case, the character gains the 6th level abilities AGAIN (and some abilities are not clearly defined as "you gain Y one more time", just "Y 5/day").
...or you ask your GM.
I am leaving it for GM Fiat until an official errata comes out to clarify, then it is still up to the GM whether or not to allow the class.
In the thread for the rules forum about the same, there is much support for the class to be for classes and not prestige classes.
Here is the link: Evangelist and PRC stacking
The "essentially gaining" is suspicious, because it can be interpreted as an example of how the ability functions, not what the ability actually is. Dave's question is spot on.
What happens when you take classes X for 5 level, Evangelist for 2, and X for 1 more level?
Is this last level considered the 6th class level of X, or the 7th?Most posters here seem to agree of it being the latter case.
I think it could reasonably be the former, but it opens another can of worms: in this case, the character gains the 6th level abilities AGAIN (and some abilities are not clearly defined as "you gain Y one more time", just "Y 5/day")....or you ask your GM.
Aasimar (daylight)
3 ranks religionworship a deity
level 3 feat is Deific Obedience
Fighter 1 - bonus combat feat
Fighter 2 - bonus combat feat
Fighter 3
Evangelist 1
Evangelist 2 - bonus combat feat
Fighter 4 bonus combat feat
Evangelist 3 - bonus combat feat
Fighter 5
Evangelist 4 - bonus combat feat
Fighter 6 - bonus combat feat
Evangelist 5 - bonus combat feat
Fighter 7
Evangelist 6 - bonus combat feat
Fighter 8 - bonus combat feat
Evangelist 7 - bonus combat feat
Fighter 9
Evangelist 8 - bonus combat feat
Fighter 10 - bonus combat feat
Evangelist 9 - bonus combat feat
Evangelist 10
Correct? 14 bonus combat feats (3 more than a level 20 fighter)
for all class features besides "Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks" you are "effectively" stacking levels... so:
- a fighter/evangelist gains feats whenever appropriate for a fighter of his [fighter+(evangelist-1)] level
- a wiz 3/evangelist 2 who (for some unfathomable reason) decided to take wiz 4 would gain 3rd level spells and a bonus feat, just like any other [w4+(e2-1)] level wizard would
- a monk 5/evangelist 10 who levels again as a monk would gain quivering palm, another +10 move, and his 6th flurry attack, just like any other [m6+(e10-1)] level monk
the place where it gets complicated is when your stacked level exceeds the total number of levels in a class... like with a wiz 2/cl 1/MT 2/evangelist 10... the combined MT/evangelist level (assuming that really is a valid combo) is 11 but the class only has 10 levels so what do you do? class features like combined spell are specifically capped (5th level spells at 9th level), but "When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously" makes it seem like that should/would continue if you figured out a way to get an effective MT level of 11+ (like with an evangelist). i very seriously doubt that's RAI, but (right now) it seems like it may be RAW...
Racial Spell like abilities don't qualify you for prestige classes/count as "Ability to cast Xnd level arcane/Divine spells.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow
Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?
Only if the pre-requisite calls out the name of a spell explicitly. For instance, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat. However, the barghest's dimension door would not meet requirements such as "Ability to cast 4th level spells" or "Ability to cast arcane spells".
SLA entry to Mystic Theurge has been condemned to death-by-faq and no longer works.