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Black Fang's Dungeon - Player killed Black Fang, help?


Beginner Box


Hi everyone, I've only recently gotten into Pathfinder and my friend and I decided to give the Beginner's Box a shot, I was GMing and I have experience doing so in other editions (Next and AD&D 2E) so I was pretty confident I could handle this.

It was just me and one person, he is also very new to Pathfinder (though not completely) and decided to play the Cleric and the Fighter. I ran him through the campaign and as I was new I didn't adjust anything since it said early on that it could be handled by two people as well as four.

You can skip to the end if you want to see my question, as I will just tell the story of our playthrough here.

He killed the two drunken goblins very easily, and then smashed open the chest (destroying the healing potion) without even searching for a key. At the magical fountain he put all the looted money in (12 GP each) and rolled a 8 and a 9, with the plus 5 for donating putting him at over 10. He choose +2 to hit for his fighter (putting him at a stupid +7 (+1 for BAB, +3 for STR, +1 for Weapon Focus, +2 for fountain) total (or +6 with power attack)).

The fire trap killed (well put her to -1) his cleric which was awkward. He shot the gem off the stand to pick it up by crawling, and then went through to the next room leaving his dead/unconscious friend behind. He fought the dragon until he got the favour granted from returning the dragon toy to the goblin king (he killed the spider before even talking to the goblin king) to use a use of the wand (for cost of 15 gp (I googled wand cost price and got 750 for 50 charges, divided it to mean each charge was worth 15 GP)) on the Cleric.

The two of them then slept after the Cleric healed, the guide says that sleeping in the dungeon is to be safe so nothing happened here. He went and explored the rest of the area, not getting the water statue buff, but easily beating the reefclaw (natural 1s gah).

After failing at climbing a cliff for ages he natural 20'd throwing his grappling hook up, then they died to the skeletons at the top, they rolled initiative as usual, but the skeletons killed the Cleric before she could do anything and he took down two skeletons before dying to the last one. I decided that the skeleton wouldn't kill their bodies and after stabilising I figured that maybe King Fatmouth would get some more profit. He cast it from the bottom of the cliff at the Cleric (they were fighting as soon as they climbed up) and told her it was 100 gold pieces. The skeleton instantly attacked her (didn't want to go too easy) but she fought it off and they rested another night to heal to full.

On the last day, equipped with the Dragonsbane Sword they climbed the tower to fight the dragon. It rolled first on initiative and it's acid breath hit for 10. The Cleric had the gem which absorbed it all, while the Fighter passed the 16 Reflex only taking 5. He then charged in and hit it JUST.

d20, rolled a 10. +6 for usual with a power attack, +3 from Dragon Sword, +2 from belly knowledge given by Fatmouth. 21 AC, hit for 22 damage.

That is d10+7 (two handed power attack) + 3 (Dragonsbane) + 2d6 (Dragonsbane)

The Cleric blessed him with Protection of Evil on her turn but it didn't matter since they rolled and won on second round intiative.

He rolled a d20, and got a nat 20. (22 damage)

He rolled to confirm and got a nat 20. (11 damage (killed the dragon here)).

He rolled to confirm that and got a nat 14 (another 14 damage).

Uh, well, um, it's dead. And I don't think that was meant to happen.

---

Okay so if you read all that you know now that I'm at a loss, the XP award was a mere 800 XP which I'm pretty sure is meant for the dragon running away after being hit by the dragonsbane, since it was going to stay for a minimum of two rounds it might not even have survived even if it had rolled well on it's initiative (since it couldn't run away that turn and then it'd have to win on the next turn).

We plan on continuing this campaign with Rust of the Runelords (at least I think that's the followup for level 1 characters), and I'm really interested in how the world should be reacting to this. The Beginner's Box doesn't suggest this as a possibility at all, instead only referring to the condition where they lost or they drove it off:

"If they drove off the dragon, the mayor thanks them
greatly and offers to throw a feast in the town square for them.
However, many townsfolk are still worried, and ask the PCs to
track down the dragon and put an end to it once and for all."

Be really grateful for advice on how to go forward, thanks for reading this huge wall of text if you did.


I haven't played through the scenario, but you always get the same amount of XP for succeeding at an encounter. If the objective was "get past the dragon" or "neutralize the dragon" or whatever, and the reward was 800 XP, then that's how many XP are granted for it regardless of if you scared it away, killed it, or drank tea with it and got it to agree to be a nice person from now on.


Though I'm not keen on the beginner box rules, it does seem like a lot of damage. Did you multiply correctly?

If he rolled a nat 20 first to cause a threat, and then confirmed that threat, the damage should be (if your numbers are correct):
(1d10+7+3)*2+2d6.


Gaberlunzie wrote:

Though I'm not keen on the beginner box rules, it does seem like a lot of damage. Did you multiply correctly?

If he rolled a nat 20 first to cause a threat, and then confirmed that threat, the damage should be (if your numbers are correct):
(1d10+7+3)*2+2d6.

I guess that makes sense, which would make it reasonable that you get the XP for not fighting the goblins too.

1 270 XP
2 0 XP
3 135 XP
4 400 XP
5 400 XP
6 135 XP
7 400 XP
8 800 XP
9 400 XP
10 800 XP

Looking at the events and XP given by each I see now that it's not really tied into how difficult it is really. Divided by two people that's 3740/2, 1870 each.

Gaberlunzie wrote:

Though I'm not keen on the beginner box rules, it does seem like a lot of damage. Did you multiply correctly?

If he rolled a nat 20 first to cause a threat, and then confirmed that threat, the damage should be (if your numbers are correct):
(1d10+7+3)*2+2d6.

Uh, is that times two, or roll it twice? I made him roll it twice but he rolled a 1 on the second one anyway.

Dragon had 54 HP, did 22 first round with 7(d8)+10+4(d6)+1(d6).

His first roll was a d20+11, he got a 20.
His damage was d8+10+2d6, which came out at 3+10+6+3, another 22, dragon at 10.
His second roll was a d20+11 again, he got a 20.
His damage was d8+10, which came out at 1+10. Dragon at -1.

Third roll didn't matter (d20 was 14), but damage was 4+10, d8+10.

So I do hope I did it right, as I certainly don't want to retroactively cause a dragon to live and take away that victory or make it seem less of a victory because I messed up the rules somehow, I'm hopeful I didn't though.


Well there is always Black Fang's older brother wondering who dared to slay his sibling? As a GM you just have to come up with stuff when players manage to sidetrack your adventure.

Just make sure to make notes when that happens so you don't end up contradicting yourself. :) I do that all the time because my memory is horrible.


My player also asked if he can skin the dragon and such, I'm not sure how that works does anyone have anything handy?

And importantly how the world reacts to this? If celebrations were being thrown for chasing it away how can I deal with them killing it? Is dragon slaying rare or normal in this world, how fast does the fame spread, do people even believe them without proof as they were literally level one?


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Welcome to Pathfinder. Where, sometimes the PCs get lucky and kill your BBEG (Big Bad Evil Guy) when you were banking on it escaping : ) It happens, and good GMs roll with it.

So, off the top of my head, the dragon is dead. Dragons are famous for having hoards. If they're not interested in finding it just because, (or out of greed) have someone suggest it to them. The contents become the hot topic of conversation. If they don't go looking for it, other people will. Perhaps foolhardy youngsters. Meanwhile other creatures are moving into an empty lair. Or. if you (or they) don't want to bother, a large party from the town go and loot it and enrich the whole town.

As far as I know, Black Fang's lair doesn't play any part in Rise of the Rune Lords (if that's what you meant). I wouldn't recommended diving into an Adventure Path so soon, they assume a fair bit of experience in players and the GM. There isn't any 'correct' next step, though; You can take your PCs anywhere, including putting them on a ship and sailing them to pretty much anywhere in Golarion. Whatever you think will be fun for you and your player(s).

Dark Archive

For the dragon skinning go here. It says how much you can get from it. Also there is a lot you can do since you killed him, such as have a worshiper of (insert evil deity) raise him as an undead. Or as Frankc said he has an older brother. If you want actual lore Black fang actually has a Older sister named Scarhorn (Auhlzodrue). She is detailed and stated up in Pathfinder Comic #8.


brad2411 wrote:

For the dragon skinning go here. It says how much you can get from it. Also there is a lot you can do since you killed him, such as have a worshiper of (insert evil deity) raise him as an undead. Or as Frankc said he has an older brother. If you want actual lore Black fang actually has a Older sister named Scarhorn (Auhlzodrue). She is detailed and stated up in Pathfinder Comic #8.

Thank you for the link and lore, that's very helpful. A big sister upset at the loss of her brother sounds useful to spice up whatever we decide to do next.

So I think Black Fang was a young dragon, would be medium, and provide enough dragonhide for a small suit of masterwork hide armour. Seems like it can only be masterwork too. I was scared of letting my PC skin it in case that's a skill they don't have or they mess it up, but moving a 500lb dragon also seems like trouble.

Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:

Welcome to Pathfinder. Where, sometimes the PCs get lucky and kill your BBEG (Big Bad Evil Guy) when you were banking on it escaping : ) It happens, and good GMs roll with it.

So, off the top of my head, the dragon is dead. Dragons are famous for having hoards. If they're not interested in finding it just because, (or out of greed) have someone suggest it to them. The contents become the hot topic of conversation. If they don't go looking for it, other people will. Perhaps foolhardy youngsters. Meanwhile other creatures are moving into an empty lair. Or. if you (or they) don't want to bother, a large party from the town go and loot it and enrich the whole town.

As far as I know, Black Fang's lair doesn't play any part in Rise of the Rune Lords (if that's what you meant). I wouldn't recommended diving into an Adventure Path so soon, they assume a fair bit of experience in players and the GM. There isn't any 'correct' next step, though; You can take your PCs anywhere, including putting them on a ship and sailing them to pretty much anywhere in Golarion. Whatever you think will be fun for you and your player(s).

I assumed the hoard presented in the Beginner's Box was the entirety of it, as a new player to Pathfinder I'm not sure what the appropriate amount of loot appropriate at this level but at level 1 they have something that seems a lot to me, over 10k+ of value.

Dragonbane sword is worth 8km, Scroll of new life is 6k, etc. So much asset value!

I did mean Rise of the Rune Lords and was wondering if it would come up since it seems the Beginner Box leads into taking that Adventurer Path from what I've read.

I know very little of the world so I was thinking a Adventure Path would lessen much of the load on me as a DM, can I ask why you don't recommend it (what makes it specifically harder in terms of experience, etc)? The exploring Golarion seems fun since I'm pretty good for randomly googling wherever they could end up, though I wish I could find a nice hi-res world map somewhere.

Got to thank everyone for all the responses!


My recollection is that Black Fang flees to his (main) lair, which is elsewhere. I could have misremembered.

The AP will lessen the load in the sense that it has locations, NPCs, monsters, etc, so you don't have to design any encounters. It will assume familiarity with the core rulebook (which is 575 pages and mostly lists the rules without giving much in the way of examples of how to use them). It will assume you can come up with something yourself if the unexpected happens, like the whole party being captured, or deciding to explore places or talk to people not developed in the adventure, and, I don't know, it assumes you've played before at the given level, I suppose.

I've GMed a fair bit of DnD 3.5 (the PCs almost up to 6th level) and have started running Reign of Winter. And every encounter, pretty much is 'new monster, how does that work' or 'new PC class, how does that work', or 'new spells,..', or 'grapple (shudder)'...

It can be done, but you might prefer a less steep learning curve :)

Grand Lodge

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Some quick points.

You only roll initiative once at the beginning of battle - not every round.

Criticals you roll the dice again as needed. You only multiply the damage bonus. And the special damage (dragon bane) is not doubled. As in: 2d10 + 20 + 2d6

Sometimes the players get lucky. You did pretty much wipe them out before the dragon. Kudos for finding a way to save them so they didn't lose their characters on the first adventure.


Don Walker wrote:

Some quick points.

You only roll initiative once at the beginning of battle - not every round.

Criticals you roll the dice again as needed. You only multiply the damage bonus. And the special damage (dragon bane) is not doubled. As in: 2d10 + 20 + 2d6

Sometimes the players get lucky. You did pretty much wipe them out before the dragon. Kudos for finding a way to save them so they didn't lose their characters on the first adventure.

Hmm, the initiative thing would have meant the dragon could have killed the fighter before he got a chance to do anything, ah well! Thanks for letting me know. I got the criticals down right.

Chief Cook and Bottlewasher wrote:

My recollection is that Black Fang flees to his (main) lair, which is elsewhere. I could have misremembered.

The AP will lessen the load in the sense that it has locations, NPCs, monsters, etc, so you don't have to design any encounters. It will assume familiarity with the core rulebook (which is 575 pages and mostly lists the rules without giving much in the way of examples of how to use them). It will assume you can come up with something yourself if the unexpected happens, like the whole party being captured, or deciding to explore places or talk to people not developed in the adventure, and, I don't know, it assumes you've played before at the given level, I suppose.

I've GMed a fair bit of DnD 3.5 (the PCs almost up to 6th level) and have started running Reign of Winter. And every encounter, pretty much is 'new monster, how does that work' or 'new PC class, how does that work', or 'new spells,..', or 'grapple (shudder)'...

It can be done, but you might prefer a less steep learning curve :)

I checked some more and there's this:

"Eventually, rumors begin to surface again about Black Fang. The PCs are not ready to take him on again just yet, but they could begin to scout out the area where his new, larger lair might be."

"Rumor has it that the dragon Black Fang, recently driven from his dungeon, has been seen at a ruined tower called Raven’s Watch, speaking to a mysterious, dark-robed figure. Whoever the dragon is talking to can’t be a friend of Sandpoint!

By defeating the evil cleric, they can prevent Black Fang from growing even more powerful—and among Thelsikar’s treasures they’ll find a map that reveals the location of Black Fang’s newest lair!"

"As for where the campaign goes from here, and where exactly Black Fang’s new lair is located—that’s up to you!"

From this it seems like that he didn't have another layer and went and got one afterwards. Since he didn't get a chance to flee seems like he won't have any more treasure.

What would you recommend if not the adventure path, would a module be better? I couldn't find a list of adventures relating to Sandpoint which is the area I would like to keep my party unless they decide to strike out.

I noticed in this forum there was talk of a Sandpoint Box which looked really interesting as a follow up to the Beginner's Box, but that post was started over a year ago and it seems there isn't anything of the sort. If I don't follow the Ruin path I'm not sure where to go next, I'm very new to the Golarion world and Pathfinder so something that explains all the characters and guides me around the world as I thought Adventure Path's were would seem super useful.


FranKc wrote:
Well there is always Black Fang's older brother wondering who dared to slay his sibling?

Actually, FranKc is absolutely right, except its an older sister. A quote from AP #49, pg. 65:

Quote:
Until recently, two black dragons lived in the partially flooded caverns accessible from the punchbowl’s lake. The eldest of these is the black dragon Scarhorn, a brutish creature with a missing horn who recently kicked her younger sibling [Black Fang] out of their lair. Scarhorn spends much of her time scouring the farther islands of the Varisian Gulf for treasure, particularly in the ruins of Xin-Bakrakhan on the lower slopes of Rivenrake Island.

So, if you need another black dragon in the future, there's more than one roosting near Sandpoint.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Critical hits:

This is still just one swing of your weapon. You just happened to hit very hard, or hit a vital spot, or whatever flavor you want to use.

Once you roll your critical threat, you roll to confirm that it was a threat. If it confirms that it was indeed a critical hit you double the damage, this could be by rolling damage twice if that's what you chose to do. In our group we just roll the damage as it was a normal hit and double that. Like others mentioned, extra damage from enchantments (such as bane in this case) would not get doubled.

The Exchange

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First of all, congratulations! You've discovered one of the most wonderful and frustrating things about being a GM - the story constantly changes shape thanks to something wonderful, terrible, or just ludicrous which you didn't expect.

Second, think about each of the surviving groups of monsters in the dungeon. How soon will they learn of the dragon's death, and what do you think their reaction will be? Will they flee the area? Try to find and plunder the dragon's loot? Form a temporary alliance in case they're attacked next?

By all means, go with the big party described in the module, and gifts (not too valuable, mind you) being pressed on the party by way of thanks. And then think of ways this can complicate the characters' lives (in a fun way). The player knows darn well that he got lucky this time, but everybody else in the area who wants a dragon slain might assume that the new dragonslayer is a lot more powerful than he really is, and offer rewards... or attempt blackmail... to get the PCs to go face another dragon. And any other dragons in the area will be watching for a certain somebody dressed in black hide armor...

As a side note, although Rise of the Runelords is good solid fun, there are several other Adventure Paths that might be a little easier for newcomers to the hobby. Check around the boards.


Dustin Ashe wrote:
FranKc wrote:
Well there is always Black Fang's older brother wondering who dared to slay his sibling?

Actually, FranKc is absolutely right, except its an older sister. A quote from AP #49, pg. 65:

Quote:
Until recently, two black dragons lived in the partially flooded caverns accessible from the punchbowl’s lake. The eldest of these is the black dragon Scarhorn, a brutish creature with a missing horn who recently kicked her younger sibling [Black Fang] out of their lair. Scarhorn spends much of her time scouring the farther islands of the Varisian Gulf for treasure, particularly in the ruins of Xin-Bakrakhan on the lower slopes of Rivenrake Island.
So, if you need another black dragon in the future, there's more than one roosting near Sandpoint.

Yeah, I found her in the Pathfinder Comic Chronicles 08 Dragons of the Sandpoint Hinterlands. She's CR 14, and tried to kill Black Fang because he attacked a a passing trade vessel. Scarhorn or Auhlzodrue.

Lincoln Hills wrote:


Second, think about each of the surviving groups of monsters in the dungeon. The instant they find out the dragon is dead, what do you think their reaction will be? Do any of them know where the dragon's local base was? Will they try to plunder it? And if more than one of them get that idea, will it be more interesting (and make sense) for them to team up to protect their new treasure against intruders?

In this case the player had decided not to fight with the Goblins, and I had King Fatmouth decide to expand control over the rest of the dungeon, the player paid King Fatmouth 200 gold pieces to defend the dragon corpse (as he wants to go get someone to skin it or carry it back into town (after cutting off one of his forward facing horns as proof of course)). King Fatmouth and the player had been getting along pretty well in any case as per the Beginner Box suggestions, and King Fatmouth sees the player as an opportunity to make a lot of money, since the party just killed a f%+%ing dragon he's not intending to betray them and hopes to benefit from doing his job and keeping the corpse safe.

Quote:
Who was the dragon in contact with? Who will start wondering where the creature disappeared to?

There is suggestions in the Beginner Box that Black Fang flees to Raven's Watch and seeks help from someone giving him a potion there, but unfortunately since he's dead he doesn't get the opportunity. I was reading the comics to compare to the portrayal of Black Fang there and the characters compared to how my character played out the dungeon, it's amusing.

Quote:

Think of ways this can complicate the characters' lives (in a fun way). The player knows darn well that he got lucky this time, but everybody else in the area who wants a dragon slain might assume that the new dragonslayer is a lot more powerful than he really is, and offer rewards... or attempt blackmail... to get the PCs to go face another dragon. And any other dragons in the area will be watching for a certain somebody dressed in black hide armor...

As a side note, although Rise of the Runelords is good solid fun, there are several other Adventure Paths that might be a little easier for newcomers to the hobby. Check around the boards.

Certainly a good idea as a twist on the fame the party will get from killing a dragon.

Rylar wrote:

Critical hits:

This is still just one swing of your weapon. You just happened to hit very hard, or hit a vital spot, or whatever flavor you want to use.

Once you roll your critical threat, you roll to confirm that it was a threat. If it confirms that it was indeed a critical hit you double the damage, this could be by rolling damage twice if that's what you chose to do. In our group we just roll the damage as it was a normal hit and double that. Like others mentioned, extra damage from enchantments (such as bane in this case) would not get doubled.

Yeah I got the critical hits thing right I'm pretty confident.

Attack: A d20, rolled a nat 20.
Confirm: A d20, rolled a nat 20. (Dragon died to this damage)
Second confirm: A d20, rolled a nat 14. (Dragon was already dead anyway)

Did the full damage on his first hit, then after that "only" did d10+10. I think in the future I will just double the damage instead of rolling it twice.


RMcD wrote:
Yeah, I found her in the Pathfinder Comic Chronicles 08 Dragons of the Sandpoint Hinterlands. She's CR 14, and tried to kill Black Fang because he attacked a a passing trade vessel. Scarhorn or Auhlzodrue.

Woah, I took you for a beginner. Looks like you're well-versed in Pathfinder lore. You know more than I.


Dustin Ashe wrote:
RMcD wrote:
Yeah, I found her in the Pathfinder Comic Chronicles 08 Dragons of the Sandpoint Hinterlands. She's CR 14, and tried to kill Black Fang because he attacked a a passing trade vessel. Scarhorn or Auhlzodrue.
Woah, I took you for a beginner. Looks like you're well-versed in Pathfinder lore. You know more than I.

Ha ha, no I'm definitely a beginner to Pathfinder I've just spent a lot of the day researching. I literally googled for Black Fang, found his Sister on the Wikipage and it said it was in Pathfinder #8 so I googled that and found her stats.

I don't know anything about the people of the world, or even Sandpoint and the culture, which is why I was hoping that the Adventurer Path could guide me through that.

As I said, I'm not new to Tabletop RPGs, started playing AD&D 2E last November with a group. Only recently this year I tried my hand at DMing in small short campaigns in AD&D 2E here and about a week ago, or maybe two I dipped my toes into Next, ran through the Caves of Chaos in that and a little of the Isle of Dread. Then I saw the DnD subreddit did a survey where 3.5e was the most preferred so I decided to try that out.

I haven't touched or really heard much about 3.5E/Pathfinder before the 1st of May this year.

Edit: Things like feats/skills/traits and CR are all things that I'm extremely new with dealing with which is why I like the pre-gen characters as I would really have no idea how to start since the feat/traits/skills are so huge and stuff.


If you plan to focus on sandpoint etc I'd get the varisoa birthplace of legends and the first book of one of the ap that start there. You don't need to run the ap but it will have a lot of info on the town.

I think running the follow up adventure is better focusing on blackfang and his sister makes for a good adventure.


@ RMcD

I think that the confusion that others are having is the part about "2nd confirm roll"... In the pathfinder ruleset, there is only the single confirmation roll.

Grand Lodge

I believe there is an optional rule that if you roll a third nat 20, that it will auto kill the creature, but it works both ways, so most groups don't use it.

Also, most people roll the second d20 to see if the it was a crit before any damage is calculated, but since the attack does at least normal damage, calculating that damage first and then adding the extra crit damage later amounts to the same thing.

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
RMcD wrote:
If I don't follow the Ruin path I'm not sure where to go next, I'm very new to the Golarion world and Pathfinder so something that explains all the characters and guides me around the world as I thought Adventure Path's were would seem super useful.

There's several products by Paizo, that detail the surrounding area in varying detail.

There's also the Pathfinder Wiki, which you could use to get a taste, before deciding to commit to any further expense.

All other products do assume you're using the full rules from the Core Rulebook, rather then the abridged rules from the Beginners' Box.
If you are wanting to continue getting some experience using the Beginners Box rules, there are some fan creations, such as the scenario in Wayfinder 10 (though this takes place a long way from Sandpoint).


Mojorat wrote:

If you plan to focus on sandpoint etc I'd get the varisoa birthplace of legends and the first book of one of the ap that start there. You don't need to run the ap but it will have a lot of info on the town.

I think running the follow up adventure is better focusing on blackfang and his sister makes for a good adventure.

Thanks for the book recommendations and the suggestions, I did notice the thing had a black watch suggestion in it but since it relied on Blackfang being alive I didn't bother to read into it much.

galahad2112 wrote:

@ RMcD

I think that the confusion that others are having is the part about "2nd confirm roll"... In the pathfinder ruleset, there is only the single confirmation roll.

Ah, see the reason I had him roll again was because the confirmation roll was a natural 20 so I figured that they way it worked was exploding, so he had to roll a confirm on his critical confirmation to see if that did damage too.

So he hit with his first roll, and then because that dice was a critical he had to confirm it for the extra damage. He confirmed it with a critical which meant the first dice did the extra damage, and then he got a chance to confirm the critical confirmation to do extra damage.

If that makes sense, of course I didn't have the rules so I didn't know if it only was allowed once but I figure two nat 20s in a row are awesome enough to let it go anyway.

Snorter wrote:
RMcD wrote:
If I don't follow the Ruin path I'm not sure where to go next, I'm very new to the Golarion world and Pathfinder so something that explains all the characters and guides me around the world as I thought Adventure Path's were would seem super useful.

There's several products by Paizo, that detail the surrounding area in varying detail.

There's also the Pathfinder Wiki, which you could use to get a taste, before deciding to commit to any further expense.

All other products do assume you're using the full rules from the Core Rulebook, rather then the abridged rules from the Beginners' Box.
If you are wanting to continue getting some experience using the Beginners Box rules, there are some fan creations, such as the scenario in Wayfinder 10 (though this takes place a long way from Sandpoint).

Thanks for the reply, I was looking through the Wiki on the quest for more knowledge regarding Black Fang's sister, and re the Core Rulebook, is that the one presented at

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/

and http://paizo.com/prd/, as those websites are brimming with a lot more rules (by god the feat list is so long!)?


HERE is the book Mojorat talks about - the player's guide to Rise of the Runelords. It's a free download, and contains quite useful information, so there's no reason not to get it :)

If you want to have some more fleshed out characters from sandpoint, there is a similar player's guide for the Jade Regent guide, that contains quite indepth info about two of the characters that live in sandpoint and two that occacionally visit.

Having a few games in and around sandpoint is probably a really good buildup to taking one of those two adventure paths later on, should you want to. I've played through a bit over half of rise of the runelords and can recommend it for new D&D players in that it feels very classic in a sense, it's a very typical D&D-game about slaying monsters and getting da l00t. Soon starting up Jade Regent, which seems a little different and perhaps more into exploration, if that's what your players enjoy.


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@rmcd

One thing you will need to get used to is, adventures are guidelines. Players often change the outcome of things to ensure things cannot be run as writte. The trick is to be adaptable and flexible.

The origonal 'next mission' wanted Blackfang alive.. but he is working with a necromancer.

There are lots of options where that can lean, and enough general outline story stuff along with a map that you have wiggle room.

Scarab Sages

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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
RMcD wrote:

Thanks for the reply, I was looking through the Wiki on the quest for more knowledge regarding Black Fang's sister, and re the Core Rulebook, is that the one presented at

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/

and http://paizo.com/prd/, as those websites are brimming with a lot more rules (by god the feat list is so long!)?

The two sites are similar, but not identical.

The PRD is Paizo's own rules-reference, and includes the material in the Core Rulebook, plus material from supplemental books in the Core Rules line, such as the Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Magic, etc.
All this material is assumed to be non-setting-specific, i.e. generic rules for any game of Pathfinder, set anywhere, in Paizo products, in homebrew games, or the worlds of other publishers.
Unless specified, these are the core assumptions you'd play with, if you sat down at a new table, with a new group.
The PRD doesn't include material written specifically for the Golarion setting, even if some of that material could work in a generic setting, with the serial numbers filed off.

The PFSRD is a fan-run site, which collects material from Paizo (including their Golarion-specific material), and lots of other publishers.
It's far larger, and more comprehensive, but you need to be aware that third party material may not always be acceptable at another GM's table.
Also, you need to be aware that because d20PFSRD staff are not Paizo employees, they aren't allowed to directly quote Paizo's intellectual property (proper names of NPCs, deities, countries, organisations, etc).
So you may see a feat or spell you like, copy it onto your character sheet, refer to it during play, and no-one know what you're talking about, because in the original book, it is 'Radiant Aura of Saranrae', while PFSRD have had to list it as 'Sun Goddess Aura'.


You may want to consider looking at 0One (zero-"one") games' basic paths adventures. They shouldn't be too hard to relocate to Sandpoint and they're well-developed storylines with the beginner box in mind.

ALso look at pfbeginner.com. There's a free adventure for level 2 players there as well. It doesn't give a lot of back story, so you should be able to relocate it to Sandpoint relatively easily (or perhaps a nearby farming community).

ALso consider making 5-room dungeons. Small maps that have a specific goal in mind (explore an unearthed tomb, landslide reveals a cave that may once have been sealed, etc). Also, the Pathfinder Society scenarios have a few 1-offs that are free to download (look for "retired modules").


The 800 XP for Black Fang does look extremely stingy to me, I'd suggest 1600 XP - CR 5 - would be fair; certainly 1200 XP CR 4 which is what you get for an Otyugh.


Critical order is typically as such:

Roll to Hit (d20 + bonuses compared to AC)
If roll was in crit threat range, roll again (d20 + bonuses compared to AC)
If 2nd roll was also a hit, the attack is a critical hit, if not, the attack does damage as normal.

Roll damage. If it was critical, roll the base weapon damage twice (for x2 weapons), then add any enhancement damage.

That's a single hit, doing a single instance of damage. It is not multiple hits. It is important, as when dealing with creatures with Damage Resistance (like the skeletons in area 9), they reduce the damage from each source, so they would decrease the damage only once on a critical hit, not twice if handled as two attacks like you did.

Still, the dragon itself is incredibly weak (for a reason), and the fighter just happened to be perfectly fit and lucky (if he had chosen a different weapon than a long sword, and his weapon focus not been in long sword, he would have not had that extra +1 to hit with the dragonsbane sword, and would have missed on that first round). Rolling a critical in the second round was the 2nd bit of luck. a GM can't plan for lucky players.


Honestly, I've found that the single best way to become a good, experienced GM (though it's rather painful) is to pick up a copy of the Core Rulebook, Bestiary 1, and Inner Sea World Guide (if you want to stay in Golarion's boundaries) and just start brainstorming an original game idea. It doesn't have to be amazing. It doesn't have to be original.

For mine, I had my players take jobs as bodyguards for an excavation project in a dangerous cave. Inside, they found that there was an odd gate that gave way to a sealed dimension in which a deranged wizard had locked himself and his pets (thousands of magically created dinosaurs and megafauna) away. The players became embroiled in plots involving local cults, primitive dwarven tribes, reclusive elves, and underground tunnels. Was it a ton of work? Yes. Did I frequently have to consult rules that I thought I already knew? Yes. Did my players frequently take unexpected routes and do things that broke my plans? Yes, and one got instantly killed by a T-Rex.

The main thing is finding a group of people who just want to enjoy the game along with you. If they're good friends or also new to Pathfinder, they shouldn't mind that you may have to say, "Hold on while I check on that rule." It certainly helps to have some digital form of the rules (like the PRD on the site) handy.

At the end of the day, that game had lots of plot holes, dropped ideas, and some less than perfectly executed scenarios. Still, we had fun and I learned more about Pathfinder than I could've hoped. After about 6 levels of that game, I wrapped the story and moved on to run Rise of the Runelords. That group of players are currently beginning book 5 of that AP, and I'm still learning new things every game.

Honestly, diving into the deep end is the best way to learn how to swim.

Welcome to Pathfinder!


RMcD wrote:

Yeah I got the critical hits thing right I'm pretty confident.

Attack: A d20, rolled a nat 20.
Confirm: A d20, rolled a nat 20. (Dragon died to this damage)
Second confirm: A d20, rolled a nat 14. (Dragon was already dead anyway)

Did the full damage on his first hit, then after that "only" did d10+10. I think in the future I will just double the damage instead of rolling it twice.

Er... I guess you're wrong here...

You should have played like this :

Attack: A d20, rolled a nat 20.
Confirm: A d20, rolled a nat 20.
Roll for damage. (increased for being a critical hit)

The second 20 is just a confirmation of the critical hit from the first 20. It doesn't give another strike, nor adds more damage.

Two critical strikes may be enough to kill a weak dragon, anyway, even if a "weak dragon" is still a mighty opponent, especially versus low-level characters.

If you feel bad about a dead BlackFang, just use the "SUIM" trick.
(SUIM means "Shut Up ! It's Magic !")
Don't forget dragons are intelligent beings and many are able to cast spells. This one could have found some scroll of "clone" and have used it some time ago, so the PC would have killed a copy of the original BlackFang (who could now be afraid of them... or really angry)
He could have faked death, too... but it's not likely to work for you, since he can't fake having been skinned.


This is a bit of an old thread, but I ran Black Fang's Dungeon for my second time.

My players, to my surprise beat the hell out of Black Fang... I had to make up something quick to tell them when they got to the town. (I had a good story to tell them when the got home, but that was out the door with them killing the dragon)

This was all just by chance, none of this was planned or done to maximize their chances to win. One of the rogues who happened to go into the warren with Black Fang to snatch up the treasure first, triggering the acid breath. She happened to have the Energy Heart that protected her and she also made her saving throw. NO DAMAGE.

The fighter, Valeros knew about the soft belly (+2 attack), had the dragons bane (+2d6) so, if i remember right, for attack he had a +5 and a +2, for damage, I used 1d8 + 3 + 2d6. He hit 3 times for over 18 points of damage each. He survived the attack by pure luck because of low roles by Black Fang. Any damage he did receive was healed by the Cleric, Kyra who was staying a good distance from the Dragon. When the dragon was under 26 hp, I tried to have him run for his life. But the players opportunity attacks HIT! Clearing any hit points he had left.

I described the event saying that Black Fang began to flap his wings, obviously getting ready to flee using the hole in the roof of the cave. The wind made it difficult for the players to hold there ground. But as Black Fang was about to leap away, the adventurers take wild swings to do any damage in a last ditch effort before Black Fang could escape. To all of their surprise, they slash and pierce his underbelly and Black Fang makes it only a few dozen feet before he falls lifeless to the cave floor.

The rogues dissected the crap out of the dragon. And I'm trying to figure out what to do with all of those parts. I think I will make some side adventures using what she found.


Wow, I'm pretty surprised most of your group ran this adventure quite well.

I ran this adventure once last week, and I almost TPKed the group. I guess the acid breath damage is pretty bad, and my players Reflex save aren't pretty good. My group were able to escape this situation with a good RP (intimidating Black Fang with the Dragon Bane sword) and we're quite lucky to have a Sarenrae cleric in the group.

Still, this is the first time I play again Pathfinder after several time away with it, and this adventure remind me how Pathfinder could be deadly with a few bad rolls.

I plan to continue the adventure with focus on Goblin clan around the Sandpoint. Maybe they're trying to do something crazy after the Black Fang's gone.

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