Marvel is realizing straight white guys arent the only ones who can save the world...


Comics

1 to 50 of 165 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The New Ultimates

I will most definitely be supporting this book. As I've just dropped both Bendis X-titles and one of Hickman's Avengers books there's room on my pull list for this.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm annoyed that more than half of these people aren't in the New Warriors book. I feel that their lack in that publication will result in both books dying and early death and marvel throwing their hands up saying "Welp, we tried..."


13 people marked this as a favorite.

Nice title on your thread. Definitely not flame bait.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Peter Stewart wrote:
Nice title on your thread. Definitely not flame bait.

That's the actual name of the actual article. If you have problem with it contact the person who posted and wrote THAT instead of passive aggressively coming after me.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'm super excited about these books! I will point out that the Young Avengers had female heroes and a gay couple, as did The Runaways ( along with what is kind of a step towards a Trans* hero).


I read the first iteration of the Young Avengers which had a black hero and a gay couple. I loved that group.

I tried with the newer one and it just didnt do it for me although I've heard great things about it.

Scarab Sages

6 people marked this as a favorite.
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
Nice title on your thread. Definitely not flame bait.
That's the actual name of the actual article. If you have problem with it contact the person who posted and wrote THAT instead of passive aggressively coming after me.

Yes, but I'd imagine they didn't force you to copy it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aberzombie wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
Nice title on your thread. Definitely not flame bait.
That's the actual name of the actual article. If you have problem with it contact the person who posted and wrote THAT instead of passive aggressively coming after me.
Yes, but I'd imagine they didn't force you to copy it.

And I'll say again, you could just talk about what the article addresses instead of taking

passive/aggressive pot shots at me.

You've got people actively defending Donald Sterling in another thread here but youre coming after me? For THIS?

Yeah, KICK ROCKS pal.


ShinHakkaider wrote:

The New Ultimates

I will most definitely be supporting this book. As I've just dropped both Bendis X-titles and one of Hickman's Avengers books there's room on my pull list for this.

I'm not sure about Hickman's Avengers book, but I do know that neither of Bendis's X-books are straight white guy centric. All-New is about Jean, with her supporting cast, and Uncanny has one lone straight white guy in the cast (although he is the central character).

Hopefully New Ultimates does well, although that universe lost me with the constant killing sprees they keep going through.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

"Comics, like journalism, politics, entertainment, tech, and a whole bunch of other industries, has a serious diversity problem. "There’s this pervasive notion that white male is the, like, the basic model human and anything NOT white male is a variant edition," Kelly Sue DeConnick, the writer behind Captain Marvel, told me. She says comics creators and people working in the creative field have had to to fight for their characters who don't fit into that "basic model human" mold:

The further people get from Basic Model Human, the easier it is to tread on their rights. The more "other," the more alien. Your tribe versus my tribe. And for the people in margins — Junot Diaz has articulated it far better than I ever will. "If you want to make a human being into a monster," he says, "deny them, at the cultural level, any reflection of themselves."

Since the people popping in here to dump have more of an issue with the headline to the article than what the article is about lets me know exactly what they're about and why they're popping in here to comment.

Still maybe if I post an excerpt from the article so that they'd talk about THAT instead...


Grey Lensman wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:

The New Ultimates

I will most definitely be supporting this book. As I've just dropped both Bendis X-titles and one of Hickman's Avengers books there's room on my pull list for this.

I'm not sure about Hickman's Avengers book, but I do know that neither of Bendis's X-books are straight white guy centric. All-New is about Jean, with her supporting cast, and Uncanny has one lone straight white guy in the cast (although he is the central character).

Hopefully New Ultimates does well, although that universe lost me with the constant killing sprees they keep going through.

Sorry I should have been clearer. I dropped both of Bendis X-titles (which I've been reading since they started) because I feel that theyre going no where story wise. I mean stuff is happening in the books but the stakes dont feel high or urgent at all.

That being said those two books are pretty diverse in their cast but they dont engage me at all.

Yeah re: the Ultimate Universe HIGH body count. That's why I just kinda stuck with Ultimate Spider-Man for the longest. I always felt insulated from that (even though USM had some huge deaths in it as well...) until...well you know....


5 people marked this as a favorite.
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
Nice title on your thread. Definitely not flame bait.
That's the actual name of the actual article. If you have problem with it contact the person who posted and wrote THAT instead of passive aggressively coming after me.
Yes, but I'd imagine they didn't force you to copy it.

And I'll say again, you could just talk about what the article addresses instead of taking

passive/aggressive pot shots at me.

You've got people actively defending Donald Sterling in another thread here but youre coming after me? For THIS?

Yeah, KICK ROCKS pal.

Calm down. Literally every time I see you post you take the tiniest bit of criticism or sarcasm (or disagreement, or simply phrasing you don't like from someone you DO agree with, or...) and escalate it to unnecessary heights.

It makes you look like a troll, or someone with no control of his temper. Quit that.

Scarab Sages

7 people marked this as a favorite.

I really don't care. A good story is a good story, regardless of anything else. The kicker is, no one should care. The problem is, everyone does.

When a story is written, not one moment should be spent on race/sex/political considerations. It should just be a story, told without agenda. Just as we should read these stories, without our own agendas.

but, by all means, let's just kick this horse until it's dead, and then keep right on going.


k3ndawg wrote:
When a story is written, not one moment should be spent on race/sex/political considerations. It should just be a story, told without agenda.

And those that do are the best stories. Nothing turns my interest off from a story than stumbling over this or that particular soapbox of the author's.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rynjin wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
Nice title on your thread. Definitely not flame bait.
That's the actual name of the actual article. If you have problem with it contact the person who posted and wrote THAT instead of passive aggressively coming after me.
Yes, but I'd imagine they didn't force you to copy it.

And I'll say again, you could just talk about what the article addresses instead of taking

passive/aggressive pot shots at me.

You've got people actively defending Donald Sterling in another thread here but youre coming after me? For THIS?

Yeah, KICK ROCKS pal.

Calm down. Literally every time I see you post you take the tiniest bit of criticism or sarcasm (or disagreement, or simply phrasing you don't like from someone you DO agree with, or...) and escalate it to unnecessary heights.

It makes you look like a troll, or someone with no control of his temper. Quit that.

Yes. And if this is what you think of me, doesnt it make you more of an instigator popping in here telling me to calm down? When you simply could have avoided and ignored this thread?

My response here is no less vitriolic or drastic than numerous responses on this board.

Again, you can talk about the topic of the article or you can talk about me. But if youre here talking about me then it looks like youre the one who's trolling Ryjijn.

There, civil enough of a response for you?


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Well I had planned on talking on the article topic but was kinda jarred out of it by you jumping down a random person's throat because he mildly criticized your thread title.

You have not set up a safe place for discussion, in other words, by making it clear that you will consider anything other than agreeing with you to be some kind of personal attack.

Really makes all discussion from this point forward moot.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.
k3ndawg wrote:
When a story is written, not one moment should be spent on race/sex/political considerations. It should just be a story, told without agenda. Just as we should read these stories, without our own agendas.

I disagree with this.

Firstly, if you are not consciously considering rac/sex/politics then your subconsious assumptions and biases will come through. Race/sex/politics will still be there, it just won't be deliberate.
In my experience, great art is deliberate.
Also, we cannot interpret art without our own agendas. We can either acknowledge them or pretend they don't exist. My experience is that pretending they don't exist is limiting.
All art is a dialogue between creator and audience.

Most of the folks who wrote all straight+white+male superhero teams were not consciously trying to promote straight+white+male: they just wrote what 'came naturally' to them and there assumptions and biases shone through.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
k3ndawg wrote:

I really don't care. A good story is a good story, regardless of anything else. The kicker is, no one should care. The problem is, everyone does.

When a story is written, not one moment should be spent on race/sex/political considerations. It should just be a story, told without agenda. Just as we should read these stories, without our own agendas.

but, by all means, let's just kick this horse until it's dead, and then keep right on going.

The problem with this is that we'd get nothing but stories written by white men for white men from a white man's point of view.

The thing is? That there are other people reading these stories and playing these game other than white men. And at some point we'd like to see ourselves reflected in these stories. I'm not saying that people OTHER than White men need to write these stories. There are a few white guys who DO make their stories diverse. I dont see how that's a problem. Unless you WANT the stories to ONLY reflect your point of view. In which case there's nothing I can or will say to you about that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rynjin wrote:

Well I had planned on talking on the article topic but was kinda jarred out of it by you jumping down a random person's throat because he mildly criticized your thread title.

You have not set up a safe place for discussion, in other words, by making it clear that you will consider anything other than agreeing with you to be some kind of personal attack.

Really makes all discussion from this point forward moot.

And yet other people have responded to the point of the article without jumping down my throat or attacking me. Even people who's points I disagree with.

Fancy that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
GeraintElberion wrote:
k3ndawg wrote:
When a story is written, not one moment should be spent on race/sex/political considerations. It should just be a story, told without agenda. Just as we should read these stories, without our own agendas.

I disagree with this.

Firstly, if you are not consciously considering rac/sex/politics then your subconsious assumptions and biases will come through. Race/sex/politics will still be there, it just won't be deliberate.
In my experience, great art is deliberate.
Also, we cannot interpret art without our own agendas. We can either acknowledge them or pretend they don't exist. My experience is that pretending they don't exist is limiting.
All art is a dialogue between creator and audience.

Most of the folks who wrote all straight+white+male superhero teams were not consciously trying to promote straight+white+male: they just wrote what 'came naturally' to them and there assumptions and biases shone through.

Which is more of an issue with subconscious biases being present in some (most) people than his general idea of not paying too much attention to race/sex/politics when making a character.

In other words, write a good character, regardless of what race you might make him. Would he be more interesting as a black man? Or a transsexual? Or a Republican?

Would he be LESS interesting as a white cissexual man?

So I guess I agree with your basic premise here actually, it should be considered I suppose just only insofar as it makes a good character.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Orthos wrote:
k3ndawg wrote:
When a story is written, not one moment should be spent on race/sex/political considerations. It should just be a story, told without agenda.
And those that do are the best stories. Nothing turns my interest off from a story than stumbling over this or that particular soapbox of the author's.

That's just bad writing. The good writing comes when a writer stops being clumsy, not when they divorce themselves from society and pretend that they can step outside of society and culture.


GeraintElberion wrote:
Most of the folks who wrote all straight+white+male superhero teams were not consciously trying to promote straight+white+male: they just wrote what 'came naturally' to them and there assumptions and biases shone through.

Agreed. I grew up reading MANY of those books. I love many of those stories. They arent bad stories.

I dont get the the aversion to anything but that though. I mean I get it but most of the comics out there now are either white men or white women saving the world or as heroes. So when a Miles Morales shows up and people get pissed and annoyed? It just seems like venom and bile for venoms sake. No Pun intended.


Yes...a good character should be written well, without an emphasis on the writing intentionally trying to make a good female/gay/black character

but many of the most iconic comic plotlines/characters have taken inspiration from the struggles of minorities. It's hard to imagine an X-men comic that didn't take cues from struggle from minority groups.

For the most part, realistic writing incorporates those issues.


GeraintElberion wrote:
Orthos wrote:
k3ndawg wrote:
When a story is written, not one moment should be spent on race/sex/political considerations. It should just be a story, told without agenda.
And those that do are the best stories. Nothing turns my interest off from a story than stumbling over this or that particular soapbox of the author's.
That's just bad writing. The good writing comes when a writer stops being clumsy, not when they divorce themselves from society and pretend that they can step outside of society and culture.

On this we will not agree.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Soapboxes turn orthos off. Token characters turn me off.

Im not expecting great things from this comic. Unfair, perhaps, but it's how I feel. This reeks of minoriteam level shenanigans, and as great as that show occasionally was, I dont' think this is going to be quite as humorous.

That said, this is an ultimates comic. Hm. Maybe I should give it a chance.

And yes, Shin, foaming at the mouth isn't going to make your cause any more understandable/appetizing to others, even those who agree. Also, people had a problem with Miles Morales because they killed off Peter Parker to create him, in a sense. Similar thing happened when they killed off Teddy to make the new Blue Beetle.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
ShinHakkaider wrote:

Marvel is realizing straight white guys arent the only ones who can save the world...

That's the actual name of the actual article. If you have problem with it contact the person who posted and wrote THAT instead of passive aggressively coming after me.

This title for this thread is senseless and kind of offensive in its utter inaccuracy and implied accusation. You choose to use it here, so it's natural for people to think it's your point of view, regardless of the fact you quoted it from another source.

There's nothing passive/aggressive in telling you so.

As for the claim itself, here are just a few examples of how it's not so:

*Bendis's Avengers title brought Luke Cage into heavy usage several years ago...
*Few teams in Marvel's history have ever been exclusively male.
*Various black characters have been critical to several storylines going decades back (Black Panther, Falcon, Storm et.al. )
*Marvel has had several characters come out long before any at DC ever did and one of them just married. (Northstar, Wiccan/Hulkling, Beast[apparently he was faking it though?] et.al.)
* There is an X-men title cast EXCLUSIVELY with female team members.
*Oh and the latest iteration of Mighty Avengers, cast almost entirely with black, Hispanic, or female characters, launched 9 months ago before the New Ultimates. New Ultimates, incidentally, set in a universe in which Nick Fury was re-imagined as a black man from day one of the Ultimates long before Jackson was ever cast for the movie.

If the objection is "talent": here's an incomplete list of black writers/artists you can click through... some of these artists and writers track back to the earliest issues of Amazing Spiderman.
I'm sure there's a list for their female and gay writers and artists too.

Yeah... Marvel is clearly just getting around to something they've been active role models in doing for ages. It's a wonder we've put up with their backward thinking for so long.
(That? Also not passive aggression, but sarcasm and snark.)


Freehold DM wrote:


And yes, Shin, foaming at the mouth isn't going to make your cause any more understandable/appetizing to others, even those who agree. Also, people had a problem with Miles Morales because they killed off Peter Parker to create him, in a sense. Similar thing happened when they killed off Teddy to make the new Blue Beetle.

Listen, I usually dont responded negatively to someone who hasn't come off dickish to me first. If I have? Quote it here and I'll be more than happy to apologize to that person or persons. There are several people here who have posted responses to the subject at hand without being a dick and I've responded to them in a civil manner, yourself included. Approach me with a civil tongue or keyboard in this case and I'll respond in kind. Do the opposite and I'll respond in kind. This is me in real life as well. As I've said repeatedly I have no problem responding to dickishness in real space as well. The problem is most people dont act like they do here in the real world so there's usually there's very little reason to respond with "foaming at the mouth".

As for the case of Mile Morales as I pointed out in other threads, I was on Newsarama and few other comic forums (forii ??) when Miles was announced. As much as you and others like ignore it, the overwhelming attitude on those boards were people were PISSED that they were getting a dark-skinned Spider-Man.

There were a few, A FEW people that even mentioned Ultimate Peter Parker's death. And more than a few people who didnt even know that this was happening in the Ultimate universe. They thought that this was happening in the 616. Which means they were jumping on the bandwagon to attack this character (and by extension the creative team).

I've been reading Ultimate Spider-Man since it's inception. I own all of the huge hardcover trades of USM. It's been my Spider-Man book over the 616 version for OVER a decade now. I really, REALLY liked that Peter Parker as well as his supporting cast. If they had cast another white guy as his replacement or a female character as his replacement? I'd still be reading the book.

Lets not get it twisted. The majority of the backlash towards Mile Morales had nothing to do with Peter Parker. As much as you and other people here like to insinuate that I'm an irrational foaming at the mouth crazy person? I dont threaten or insult comic creators or flip out over the deaths of my favorite characters. If a male version of a character is replaced by a female version I dont say I'm going to boycott the book. Or say that it's Forced Diversity. or why can't she get her own book and leave ours alone. If it's a good creative team with a good story? I KEEP READING THE BOOK until I decide that it's not worth it.

If you see what I posted upthread I've done that with both of Bendis' X-Books. I think I've been with them for almost 2 years and they dont quite do it for me. Do I call him a hack? Do I say that they suck? No. I'm a fan of Bendis. But these books dont work for me. SO I vote with my feet.


ShinHakkaider wrote:
As for the case of Mile Morales as I pointed out in other threads, I was on Newsarama and few other comic forums (forii ??) when Miles was announced. As much as you and others like ignore it, the overwhelming attitude on those boards were people were PISSED that they were getting a dark-skinned Spider-Man.

That'd be "fora", but forums works just fine for most people's purposes.

I can't speak for those people (I don't browse comics forums) but I'll say two things in general terms:

1.) It probably wasn't as many people as you recall it being. Vocal minorities stick in your head like tar.

2.) A bunch of chuckleheads on a forum acting like doofuses doesn't really make a majority. If people on random internet forums spoke for the majority in most cases this planet would be a dismal place to live.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
SeeDarkly_X wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:

Marvel is realizing straight white guys arent the only ones who can save the world...

That's the actual name of the actual article. If you have problem with it contact the person who posted and wrote THAT instead of passive aggressively coming after me.

This title for this thread is senseless and kind of offensive in its utter inaccuracy and implied accusation. You choose to use it here, so it's natural for people to think it's your point of view, regardless of the fact you quoted it from another source.

There's nothing passive/aggressive in telling you so.

As for the claim itself, here are just a few examples of how it's not so:

*Bendis's Avengers title brought Luke Cage into heavy usage several years ago...
*Few teams in Marvel's history have ever been exclusively male.
*Various black characters have been critical to several storylines going decades back (Black Panther, Falcon, Storm et.al. )
*Marvel has had several characters come out long before any at DC ever did and one of them just married. (Northstar, Wiccan/Hulkling, Beast[apparently he was faking it though?] et.al.)
* There is an X-men title cast EXCLUSIVELY with female team members.
*Oh and the latest iteration of Mighty Avengers, cast almost entirely with black, Hispanic, or female characters, launched 9 months ago before the New Ultimates. New Ultimates, incidentally, set in a universe in which Nick Fury was re-imagined as a black man from day one of the Ultimates long before Jackson was ever cast for the movie.

If the objection is "talent": here's an incomplete list of black writers/artists you can click through... some of these artists and writers track back to the earliest issues of Amazing Spiderman.
I'm sure there's a list for their female and gay writers and artists too.

Yeah... Marvel is clearly just getting around to something they've been active role models in doing for...

I'm sorry that you think that the title is offensive but pointing to a bunch of exceptions to rebuff the point doesn't exactly help refute the argument.

As with most people who just dont grasp the point of an article like this you still ignore that

1) Superhero comics are overwhelmingly targeted at a white male population. I'd go as far to say comics in general.

2) That there are vastly more female comic characters in comics than black or any other people of color. Most of those females are white.

3) Just because I want to see more characters that look like me in lead roles in comics doesnt automatically mean that I HATE or dislike the characters who DONT look like me. I grew up with many of these characters. Just because I want to see more people like Miles or T'challa or Luke doesnt mean that I hate Peter Parker or Namor or Danny Rand.

Now...let's talk about your list there for a minute.

I'm well aware of Bendis Avengers. I own pretty much all of them in singles and trades. I've pointed out (in other threads) how ballsy not only having Luke Cage feature prominently on an Avengers book but to also have him in an interracial relationship front and center. T

That's ONE book though.

The fact that few teams have been exclusively male is not in doubt. However the depictions of the female characters in those groups have often been less than stellar. I'll point to one example that always hit's me full on because even reading it as a teenager it just felt WRONG. And that's when Immortus' son Marcus shows up, Jedi Mind Tricks Ms. Marvel and knocks her up and takes her to another dimension. All while the rest of the Avengers basically did nothing. Chris Claremont who used to write her solo title fixed it and took the Avengers to task for it in the now classic Avengers Annual #10 (which also introduced Rogue I think). But yeah. They were on teams but were either mostly ignored or treated shoddily unless Chris Claremont or Marv Wolfman was writing the book...

Exactly what Black Characters have been critical to what storylines in recent comic history? Where? Has this happened in the new 52? Because since I dont read New 52 I've missed something?

Yes there is an X-Men title cast with Exclusively female team members that started 1 year ago? Written by Brian Wood. 1 Year ago. The X-men have been around for how long again?

I'm aware of the Mighty Avengers. I'm also aware of the Ultimate line of comics and that Sam Jackson Nick Fury originated from there. (his first appearance in and Ultimate Marvel team up he doesnt look like him but after that? yeah.)

These things that you point out? Don't help your argument or negate my point. They are all relative drops in the bucket compared to comics at large? Because pointing to the exceptions to make a point just kinda proves the point...

Oh and that list of black creators is kinda...well, suspect. Especially when it lists Alexandre Dumas and Dwyane McDuffie (R.I.P.) TWICE.


Rynjin wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
As for the case of Mile Morales as I pointed out in other threads, I was on Newsarama and few other comic forums (forii ??) when Miles was announced. As much as you and others like ignore it, the overwhelming attitude on those boards were people were PISSED that they were getting a dark-skinned Spider-Man.

That'd be "fora", but forums works just fine for most people's purposes.

I can't speak for those people (I don't browse comics forums) but I'll say two things in general terms:

1.) It probably wasn't as many people as you recall it being. Vocal minorities stick in your head like tar.

2.) A bunch of chuckleheads on a forum acting like doofuses doesn't really make a majority. If people on random internet forums spoke for the majority in most cases this planet would be a dismal place to live.

You know I do have to pay close attention when I run into things like what I encountered over at Newsarama and CBR. As well as when I run into suspect behavior in real life. Because usually the first thing a neutral party (like yourself) is going to ask is: Was it your perception of what happened or was it actually happening? Or was it actually as bad as you thought it was?

You dont have to believe me and I'm not asking you to.

But YES it was that bad. There were people in that thread (the CBR one) who were diplomatic and rational but they were in the minority. By like ALOT.


ShinHakkaider wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
As for the case of Mile Morales as I pointed out in other threads, I was on Newsarama and few other comic forums (forii ??) when Miles was announced. As much as you and others like ignore it, the overwhelming attitude on those boards were people were PISSED that they were getting a dark-skinned Spider-Man.

That'd be "fora", but forums works just fine for most people's purposes.

I can't speak for those people (I don't browse comics forums) but I'll say two things in general terms:

1.) It probably wasn't as many people as you recall it being. Vocal minorities stick in your head like tar.

2.) A bunch of chuckleheads on a forum acting like doofuses doesn't really make a majority. If people on random internet forums spoke for the majority in most cases this planet would be a dismal place to live.

You know I do have to pay close attention when I run into things like what I encountered over at Newsarama and CBR. As well as when I run into suspect behavior in real life. Because usually the first thing a neutral party (like yourself) is going to ask is: Was it your perception of what happened or was it actually happening? Or was it actually as bad as you thought it was?

You dont have to believe me and I'm not asking you to.

But YES it was that bad. There were people in that thread (the CBR one) who were diplomatic and rational but they were in the minority. By like ALOT.

That's CBR. The moderator's over there have long since abandoned any duties and allow the worst elements free run of the boards. Occasionally someone gets banned but it takes an awful lot to make it happen.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

It would seem people feel strongly about comic books.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Grey Lensman wrote:
That's CBR. The moderator's over there have long since abandoned any duties and allow the worst elements free run of the boards. Occasionally someone gets banned but it takes an awful lot to make it happen.

They just wiped their old forums and userbase a few days ago and have warned that the new forums will actively be policed against trolls. Seems like a big brouhaha about idiot fans threatening and harrassing some writer for criticising a Teen Titans cover was that straw the broke the camels back.

And good for them. The forums were a cesspit, I hope the new version will be better moderated.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think that having good representation is a good thing. But, I'd rather Marvel assign passionate writers that will make each character have an interesting character. It's a good way to avoid "tokenism" and bad stereotypes. And also avoiding naming all African characters "Black" then a noun ;)

Thing is, all writing, subconsciously or not, has an agenda. From Dr. Seuss and C S Lewis to Jack Kirby and Stan Lee. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as it tells a good story with interesting and strong characters. Some are more politically charged than others, and if that's not your bag, then that's cool. But I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting more representation. It's a basic customer demand of change, just like anything else. It's up to the company to see if catering to that will help with their story and sales.

To me, asking for more diverse, and importantly, well-written characters is like asking to bring back Batman from the dead, or scrub out the Clone Sage from Spider-man's history, or make more Namor comics. It's something some fans want and the company should at the very least hear them out.

Personally, I think some of the best stories I have read have taken cues and reflect a facet of our culture. But that's just my opinion. Everyone has different tastes.


ShinHakkaider wrote:
The fact that few teams have been exclusively male is not in doubt. However the depictions of the female characters in those groups have often been less than stellar. I'll point to one example that always hit's me full on because even reading it as a teenager it just felt WRONG. And that's when Immortus' son Marcus shows up, Jedi Mind Tricks Ms. Marvel and knocks her up and takes her to another dimension. All while the rest of the Avengers basically did nothing. Chris Claremont who used to write her solo title fixed it and took the Avengers to task for it in the now classic Avengers Annual #10 (which also introduced Rogue I think). But yeah. They were on teams but were either mostly ignored or treated shoddily unless Chris Claremont or Marv Wolfman was writing the book...

Wasn't that comic pretty much universally reviled as being creepy and wrong?

It's not particularly fair to focus on the negative examples that nobody liked, since it means that kind of writing is what turns readers off, and is therefore pretty much just a product of the writer's sick mind as an individual rather than something systemic.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
ShinHakkaider wrote:
Exactly what Black Characters have been critical to what storylines in recent comic history? Where? Has this happened in the new 52?

Here's a couple just top of mind...

Luke Cage played a significant role in the Age of Ultron event.
Black Panther, in the ongoing story in New Avengers.
That's recent. But no, their RACE isn't relevant to those stories... but why should it be?
I also recall off the top of my head an early Avengers tale from the 70's where Black Panther saved them all as well, but suffice to say, I have neither the time nor willingness to scour the whole of Marvel history for additional examples. You want to know, dig it up yourself. They are there.

As I said, all those examples I gave were just a few...
some recent, some not. But there are many.
I also noted that the list I linked you to was incomplete and yes, it has errors. But what ISN'T "suspect" is that it is indicative of how far back black writers and artists have been a part of comic book creation generally, not just for Marvel or DC. You'll have to click each face and research them individually if you want... or you can stand on the ground that they've had no influence. Which dismisses their relevance, contribution, and importance. (I agree though that Dumas has no place there... but I suspect it is because there are comic adaptations of the 3 Musketeers which makes him relevant as the author of the core material, not directly in the influence of comic creation.)

I could post dozens of other links disputing the claim of your title.
But if you're going to rest on your claim without reviewing a singular link I've provided more than superficially, why would I spend the time doing so?

I'll accept Avengers #199-200 Vol. 1 was a bizarre and unsavory story for the time... 34 years ago. It was a failed experiment in trying more adult-themed storylines (a whole 5-6 years before TDKR even) and might have been impetus for the creation of Epic Comics a couple years after. Later, similar stories worked brilliantly; Alias is an excellent example. So that may be more a measure of the manner of presentation than the choice to do the story itself.

To address another point: As a specific example, with 8,789 female characters in their roster, if the disparity of race equality exists in that number, it's largely due to the historical fact, not the overall or current standard.
You're not going to have the past stories erased... but there are times, like ret-con style stories that add to previous canon of the by-gone eras, where racial and gender representations are better balanced.

In addition, other than Fantastic Four (which in fairness even had Storm & Black Panther replace the Richards for a period,) I can not think of any major team book they have done in the past 3 decades that was NOT racially diverse in its cast. And where females are concerned, I can look at three books in the past 5 years that were exclusively cast with females of various races and think of none that were or are exclusively male. (X-men? Never a "boys-only" club. The 80's New Mutants title actually started off and remained predominantly female from issue 1, with only ONE white American character on the team at that time.) And other female-centric team ups have been around throughout to one extent or another for many years.

The article would seem to indicate that Cloak is somehow revolutionary as an inclusion... but Marvel had the original non-ultimate Cloak & Dagger, an interracial couple, appear in over 200 books since the 80's, 30 of which were their own title! That started long before Cage/Jones were ever a thing.

You want more. You are getting more. They have made huge strides and have made significant contributions to this issue for a long time. Hardly a "drop in a bucket."

But you also can't expect they'll drop existing titles in favor of replacing them with a racial or gender quota. They can only produce so much and (unlike DC) they aren't willing to reboot their entire continuity in order "even the odds" or whatever. But the other side of that is a matter of consumer demand and support. If books like the female Black Panther don't sell, they get cancelled. That's on readers, not the creators. The success Marvel comics has had is in team-integration and I think that's significant and commendable and more than adequately refutes the accuracy and validity of the title you used here and the article used there.

And what would the New 52 have to do with a conversation about Marvel?
But since you bring it up, DC's prominent black character now is Cyborg, only appearing in Justice League. They have a black Batman on a title that is one of their worst selling, cancelled Static Shock, did a brief run of Black Lightning stories, and... John Stewart as one Green Lantern among thousands in space... that's it. I think... Oh and "Amanda Waller" though you couldn't tell her race anymore the way she's colored thanks to the reboot.
By measure other than Justice League, while their current roster of team books IS occasionally racially diverse, that diversity doesn't actually include "black" in most cases on their more popular titles. Titans, JLA, JLD, JLC, Birds of Prey, etc...
Seems to me your argument (and theirs) applies far more credibly and fairly to DC's current line than Marvel.


Man, I really liked Static Shock too :(

Actually, right now, DC is going nuts with firing tons of writers. It's a mad house there. Suck too, because a lot of their comics are suffering from it.


Always loved static. Not sure about static shock.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
It would seem people feel strongly about comic books.

The less something matters in real life the more seriously many take it.


Rynjin wrote:
ShinHakkaider wrote:
The fact that few teams have been exclusively male is not in doubt. However the depictions of the female characters in those groups have often been less than stellar. I'll point to one example that always hit's me full on because even reading it as a teenager it just felt WRONG. And that's when Immortus' son Marcus shows up, Jedi Mind Tricks Ms. Marvel and knocks her up and takes her to another dimension. All while the rest of the Avengers basically did nothing. Chris Claremont who used to write her solo title fixed it and took the Avengers to task for it in the now classic Avengers Annual #10 (which also introduced Rogue I think). But yeah. They were on teams but were either mostly ignored or treated shoddily unless Chris Claremont or Marv Wolfman was writing the book...

Wasn't that comic pretty much universally reviled as being creepy and wrong?

It's not particularly fair to focus on the negative examples that nobody liked, since it means that kind of writing is what turns readers off, and is therefore pretty much just a product of the writer's sick mind as an individual rather than something systemic.

As I stated it's the example the immediately jumped to mind since at the time that I was typing the response Avengers Annual #10 was on the stack of comics on my desk right next to me. In the middle of doing comics inventory you see.


Orthos wrote:
k3ndawg wrote:
When a story is written, not one moment should be spent on race/sex/political considerations. It should just be a story, told without agenda.
And those that do are the best stories. Nothing turns my interest off from a story than stumbling over this or that particular soapbox of the author's.

Like Sword of Truth.

God, it had so much potential...


SeeDarkly_X wrote:

And what would the New 52 have to do with a conversation about Marvel?

But since you bring it up, DC's prominent black character now is Cyborg, only appearing in Justice League. They have a black Batman on a title that is one of their worst selling, cancelled Static Shock, did a brief run of Black Lightning stories, and... John Stewart as one Green Lantern among thousands in space... that's it. I think... Oh and "Amanda Waller" though you couldn't tell her race anymore the way she's colored thanks to the reboot.
By measure other than Justice League, while their current roster of team books IS occasionally racially diverse, that diversity doesn't actually include "black" in most cases on their more popular titles. Titans, JLA, JLD, JLC, Birds of Prey, etc...
Seems to me your argument (and theirs) applies far more credibly and fairly to DC's current line than Marvel.

I mentioned New 52 because since I read pretty much only Marvel, Valiant and Image books and NOT DC that you were referring to something that was possibly taking place in those titles.


Did the Miles Morales storyline get better? I found him poorly written and stopped reading early on. I hear there was a cool crossover between Miles and 616-Peter, but I haven't gotten around to reading it.


DC is going to the deep end of things, lately. I mean, sometimes, a pretty neat idea will come up (For example, did you know that the Wizard Shazam, previously a man of vague Middle Eastern descent, has been replaced with a circle of seven ancient magicians seemingly led by an Australian Aboriginal man?), but mostly... It's kinda bland. Which is a very low point for a company that once pushed through things like Swamp Thing, Watchmen, Hellblazer and the entire Sandman line. But even they are far from being a "white boys club" only.

Is any one here old enough to remember DC Millenium and the New Guardians? The series suffered feature a pretty significant amount of Tokenism, and wasn't a commercial success... But you can't say they didn't try.


ShinHakkaider wrote:


As I stated it's the example the immediately jumped to mind since at the time that I was typing the response Avengers Annual #10 was on the stack of comics on my desk right next to me. In the middle of doing comics inventory you see.

Gotcha.

I can't really add much in the way of examples. I'm a casual comic reader at best, being more interested in the comics inspired animation, movies, and games. So I haven't really come across any blatant racism or exclusion in stuff I consume.

Though DC really does have a dearth of prominent non-white characters, even in the animated stuff (which features John Stewart as the "main" Green Lantern and...that's about it).

Marvel has always seemed pretty diverse to me though.

Patrick C. wrote:
Orthos wrote:
k3ndawg wrote:
When a story is written, not one moment should be spent on race/sex/political considerations. It should just be a story, told without agenda.
And those that do are the best stories. Nothing turns my interest off from a story than stumbling over this or that particular soapbox of the author's.

Like Sword of Truth.

God, it had so much potential...

To be fair, the soapbox was merely the final nail in the coffin. The sheer amount of deus ex machinas and ramble-y writing after book 3-4 or so was what really killed it for me.

Shadow Lodge

Rynjin wrote:

Well I had planned on talking on the article topic but was kinda jarred out of it by you jumping down a random person's throat because he mildly criticized your thread title.

You have not set up a safe place for discussion, in other words, by making it clear that you will consider anything other than agreeing with you to be some kind of personal attack.

Really makes all discussion from this point forward moot.

yosh


ShinHakkaider wrote:
I mentioned New 52 because since I read pretty much only Marvel, Valiant and Image books and NOT DC that you were referring to something that was possibly taking place in those titles

Well... in that we have something in marginally in common.

I collect only Marvel now (and a Dark Horse title.)
I keep up with DC... but I doubt I'll ever give them money again.

But no... I was referring exclusively to Marvel prior to my brief paragraph on the point of DC being more relevant to your claim.

Hopefully that made was clear enough from the examples I gave.

Patrick C. wrote:

DC is going to the deep end of things, lately. I mean, sometimes, a pretty neat idea will come up (For example, did you know that the Wizard Shazam, previously a man of vague Middle Eastern descent, has been replaced with a circle of seven ancient magicians seemingly led by an Australian Aboriginal man?), but mostly... It's kinda bland. Which is a very low point for a company that once pushed through things like Swamp Thing, Watchmen, Hellblazer and the entire Sandman line. But even they are far from being a "white boys club" only.

Is any one here old enough to remember DC Millenium and the New Guardians? The series suffered feature a pretty significant amount of Tokenism, and wasn't a commercial success... But you can't say they didn't try.

I do. And it's not like DC hasn't done better in the past... They have. A lot of long running stories involving teams with clear diversity were completely erased and not brought back with the launch of New 52. Just another of MANY FAILING in the new regime.


Marvel makes comics too!? How do they have the time with movies planned out till 2048?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

DC is going all out weird. The FCBD thing they did is Future's End where Brother Eye has slaughtered/transformed everybody on Earth. So many limbs get cut off I wouldn't be surprised if Arm-Fall-Off Lad is behind it.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Marvel makes comics too!? How do they have the time with movies planned out till 2048?

Marvel is a bunch of sub companies. The one that handles the movies is completely separate from the one that prints comics.

1 to 50 of 165 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Gamer Life / Entertainment / Comics / Marvel is realizing straight white guys arent the only ones who can save the world... All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.