Been trying to create an unarmed barbarian that can compete with a monk/brawler at unarmed dmg and grappling. I know it won't be as good with dmg but on the grappling it can do good also you get rage powers for utility.
But can it compete with the brawler/monk? At any level?
If one were to make a MoMS/Brutal pugilist/urban barbarian. I know the alignment restriction doesn't allow it but our group handwaves alignment restrictions.
Any idea does it work? Any build suggestions?
Do you want to be a purely unarmed guy or would you be willing to add in natural weapons? Unlike the monk the barb has no problems mixing both.
On topic: There are rage powers that give the barb IUS and TWF while raging. That with his boosted strength goes a far way in making him viable. Whether he can compete with the other options I do not know. But I guess it, in part, depends on my above question.
Do you want to be a purely unarmed guy or would you be willing to add in natural weapons? Unlike the monk the barb has no problems mixing both.
On topic: There are rage powers that give the barb IUS and TWF while raging. That with his boosted strength goes a far way in making him viable. Whether he can compete with the other options I do not know. But I guess it, in part, depends on my above question.
Of course natural attacks are welcome. Any way of fighting with ones own body.
I know barbarian loses in terms of dmg bonuses but wins when it comes to number of attacks.
An unarmed barbarian focusing on natural attacks is viable from 2 to 20 thanks to the beast totem line.
Add in a race with a racial bite attack (Half-Orc, Goblin, Catfolk, Tengu TIEFLING)and you are rocking 3 attacks from level 2 and should be superior to any other unarmed warrior till level 7 or so. Also consider going DEX based with urban barbarian and amulet of mighty fists.
An unarmed barbarian focusing on natural attacks is viable from 2 to 20 thanks to the beast totem line.
Add in a race with a racial bite attack (Half-Orc, Goblin, Catfolk, Tengu TIEFLING)and you are rocking 3 attacks from level 2 and should be superior to any other unarmed warrior till level 7 or so. Also consider going DEX based with urban barbarian and amulet of mighty fists.
Doesnt the damage suffer by going dexterity?
Weapon Finesse and an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists makes it work, if you go Urban Barbarian.
Hmm true but its dependent on a single item, well not the biggest Weakness in the world.
Do you have other feat suggestions?
Well, what is allowed?
All Basic paizo published "official" materials. D20pfsrd.com basically, no 3rd party materials.
Piranha Strike. Oh. And Dragon Style feats.
Piranha Strike. Oh. And Dragon Style feats.
Would boar style be good also?
Thanks.
A Barbarian with beast totem can be built very strongly as a Half-Orc or Tiefling with a bite attack.
A Ranger who has the Natural Attack style can take Aspect of the Beast at 2nd level and be built very similarly.
White Haired Witch can be worth a 2 level dip to get a hair attack and qualify for the feat Final Embrace.
Aasimar is actually the strongest race for this build from 11-20 because they can pick up a bite with a rage power and are the only normally allowed race that can add 2 wing buffets to the carnage.
Kitsune is another odd race worth mentioning because they can get Vulpine Pounce making the Ranger version of the build much more viable at high level.
Piranha Strike. Oh. And Dragon Style feats.
As I understand it the dragon style still adds strength bonus even if you have an agile weapon.
Piranha Strike. Oh. And Dragon Style feats.As I understand it the dragon style still adds strength bonus even if you have an agile weapon.
So agile weapon doesnt work with dragon style?
Doesnt the damage suffer by going dexterity?An unarmed barbarian focusing on natural attacks is viable from 2 to 20 thanks to the beast totem line.
Add in a race with a racial bite attack (Half-Orc, Goblin, Catfolk, Tengu TIEFLING)and you are rocking 3 attacks from level 2 and should be superior to any other unarmed warrior till level 7 or so. Also consider going DEX based with urban barbarian and amulet of mighty fists.
Who says you have to go with a full dex build? It is entirely possible to have a strength focused build with TWF, and it is actually more advisable for nonfighters/rogue/swashbuckler since you do not have access to bonus feats and such to cover that (you are going to be feat starved; no doubt about it).
These are the stats you shoot for: STR 16 DEX 16 CON 14 Everything else 10... or whatever.
The two 16's are accomplished by making one of the scores a 14, and then using a racial bonus to raise it up (can be either strength or dex for humans and other floating bonus races; usually, you will be increasing dex, since it is the most common). Admittedly, you can also do this with dwarves as well, if you are willing to dump a mental score to help bring Con up (since all the points of a 20 point buy would go towards strength and dex). The overall point is that you need 16 dex, and then you bring it to 17 with your 4th level ability score adjustment, and then proceed to forget dex forever. With that, you qualify for all of the 'good' TWF feats with relatively little to no pain.
Anyway, some build advice: Grab a level of monk. This is important, since the monk's unarmed class feature has an unusual clause that makes it very, very valuable-
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
This would not only allow you to take full advantage of your rage bonuses (getting 2x strength total over both sets of attack...and that is before dragon style is thrown in), but the language also technically means that you get full power attack damage on each hit, instead of the 1/2 of each bonus you usually get on offhand attacks. With beast totem's pounce...well, you will be a force to be reckoned with.
I saw you had interesting in boar style. And dragon style is usually the suggested style in this situation. I advise a monk dip, but not the monk's flurry (usually too many restrictions, and it is also monk level dependant). So instead, why not grab the Master of Many Styles archetype, which trades away flurry for the ability to use multiple style at once and use of the bonus feats for almost-entirely-prerequisite-free style feats.
That's how I understood it. And I think there has been a thread about it some time ago that made me come to that conclusion.
Edit: Just to be clear: What I meant was that a unarmed guy with agile and dragon style would get 1dx +dex +1/2strength but not 1dx+1-1/2 dex
I've done something similar with my current character, a Okami (wolfen kitsune) True Primitive Barbarian 2/Druid 4/Nature Warden 2.
The Okami race gives me a d6 bite which I've enhanced to d8 with Improved Natural Attack(i.e. as much as a battleaxe). I've taken the Lesser Beast Totem Rage power which adds in two d6 claw attacks. That means I get to potentially add my STR damage three times (assuming I hit...).
I was seriously looking at Rending Claws which add an extra d6 if both claw attacks hit. I could also add INA for the claws to give me 3x1d8 attacks. I took the bite INA first because it enhances more Druid shapeshift creatures.
Another route, one which I probably won't take, would be the feat Feral Combat Training, although that requires Improved Unarmed Attack and Weapon Focus (Natural Weapons), and start adding in 'monk'-style unarmed attack manoeuvres.
So far in play I've been able to dish out some decent damage despite not being primarily a fighter (Druid + Nature Warden leave me a couple of BABs below what I could have achieved through Barbarian alone). I'm sure a dedicated Barbarian would be much more effective in toe-to-toe fighting than mine.
Doesnt the damage suffer by going dexterity?An unarmed barbarian focusing on natural attacks is viable from 2 to 20 thanks to the beast totem line.
Add in a race with a racial bite attack (Half-Orc, Goblin, Catfolk, Tengu TIEFLING)and you are rocking 3 attacks from level 2 and should be superior to any other unarmed warrior till level 7 or so. Also consider going DEX based with urban barbarian and amulet of mighty fists.
Who says you have to go with a full dex build? It is entirely possible to have a strength focused build with TWF, and it is actually more advisable for nonfighters/rogue/swashbuckler since you do not have access to bonus feats and such to cover that (you are going to be feat starved; no doubt about it).
These are the stats you shoot for: STR 16 DEX 16 CON 14 Everything else 10... or whatever.
The two 16's are accomplished by making one of the scores a 14, and then using a racial bonus to raise it up (can be either strength or dex for humans and other floating bonus races; usually, you will be increasing dex, since it is the most common). Admittedly, you can also do this with dwarves as well, if you are willing to dump a mental score to help bring Con up (since all the points of a 20 point buy would go towards strength and dex). The overall point is that you need 16 dex, and then you bring it to 17 with your 4th level ability score adjustment, and then proceed to forget dex forever. With that, you qualify for all of the 'good' TWF feats with relatively little to no pain.
Anyway, some build advice: Grab a level of monk. This is important, since the monk's unarmed class feature has an unusual clause that makes it very, very valuable-
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking...
True that it can still be a str build but just utilises the dex for TWF feats.
Yeah going to make it MoMS 2 / Barbarian 18 either Invul rager/Urban Barbarian or Brutal Pugilist/urban barbarian.Something like this:
1. Barbarian
2. Barbarian
3. Monk
4. Barbarian
5. Monk
6-20 Barbarian
So I get the style feats at those levels from the monk bonus feats. Also it gets me a free IUS.
Maybe Master of many styles/monk of the mountain monk.
Any other feat suggestions? Power attack is obvious, toughness can be gained from the monk archetype. Dragon style's two first feats. Maybe boar style or some other style ?
I've done something similar with my current character, a Okami (wolfen kitsune) True Primitive Barbarian 2/Druid 4/Nature Warden 2.
The Okami race gives me a d6 bite which I've enhanced to d8 with Improved Natural Attack. I've taken the Lesser Beast Totem Rage power which adds in two d6 claw attacks. That means I get to potentially add my STR damage three times (assuming I hit...).
I was seriously looking at Rending Claws which add an extra d6 if both claw attacks hit. I could also add INA for the claws to give me 3x1d8 attacks. I took the bite first because it enhances more Druid shapeshift creatures.
Another route, one which I probably won't take, would be the feat Feral Combat Training, although that requires Improved Unarmed Attack and Weapon Focus (Natural Weapons), and start adding in 'monk'-style unarmed attack manoeuvres.
So far in play I've been able to dish out some decent damage despite not being primarily a fighter (Druid + Nature Warden leave me a couple of BABs below what I could have achieved through Barbarian alone). I'm sure a dedicated Barbarian would be much more effective in toe-to-toe fighting than mine.
Sounds cool, trying to get something of an unarmed barbarian melee monster through either natural attacks or unarmed attacks or even better, both!
Hmm maybe those natural weapons feats could be good.
True that it can still be a str build but just utilises the dex for TWF feats.
Yeah going to make it MoMS 2 / Barbarian 18 either Invul rager/Urban Barbarian or Brutal Pugilist/urban barbarian.
Something like this:
1. Barbarian
2. Barbarian
3. Monk
4. Barbarian
5. Monk
6-20 BarbarianSo I get the style feats at those levels from the monk bonus feats. Also it gets me a free IUS.
Maybe Master of many styles/monk of the mountain monk.Any other feat suggestions? Power attack is obvious, toughness can be gained from the monk archetype. Dragon style's two first feats. Maybe boar style or some other style ?
Since you can get so many full attacks with pounce (...eventually), boar style might be the stronger choice as a second style for higher levels. It also helps to add some debuffing, since it can allow you to demoralize via intimidate when you get a shred off. And, like dragon style, you get most of the good stuff by the second feat in the chain, so it shouldn't burden your build too much.
Plus, I just like the idea of how brutal boar style would look. You are literally tearing people apart with your bare hands, and with the second feat you are stabbing your arm through their bodies.
True that it can still be a str build but just utilises the dex for TWF feats.
Yeah going to make it MoMS 2 / Barbarian 18 either Invul rager/Urban Barbarian or Brutal Pugilist/urban barbarian.
Something like this:
1. Barbarian
2. Barbarian
3. Monk
4. Barbarian
5. Monk
6-20 BarbarianSo I get the style feats at those levels from the monk bonus feats. Also it gets me a free IUS.
Maybe Master of many styles/monk of the mountain monk.Any other feat suggestions? Power attack is obvious, toughness can be gained from the monk archetype. Dragon style's two first feats. Maybe boar style or some other style ?
Since you can get so many full attacks with pounce (...eventually), boar style might be the stronger choice as a second style for higher levels. It also helps to add some debuffing, since it can allow you to demoralize via intimidate when you get a shred off. And, like dragon style, you get most of the good stuff by the second feat in the chain, so it shouldn't burden your build too much.
Plus, I just like the idea of how brutal boar style would look. You are literally tearing people apart with your bare hands, and with the second feat you are stabbing your arm through their bodies.
Do you have other feat suggestions? Like cornugon smash might be a good combination with boar style.
Actually with subraces and splat books there are many many ways of picking up natural attacks.
Both Aasimar (Angelkin) and Tiefling (Oni-spawn) start with Alter Self as an SLA. Take Troglodyte form and that's claw, claw, bite out of the gate. Granted only 1 minute at level 1...
Half-orcs (Toothy) and Tieflings(Maw and Claw) have alternate racial traits that grant them natural attacks.
Add in Invulnerable Rager (works with Urban Barbarian by the way you can roll with both archetypes) Beast Totem and you have nice scaling DR, natural attacks and a very nice power set. Full BAB is in my opinion usually > 2/3 BAB with flurry of misses. And any combat maneuver build tends to fall behind as you level up in any case just because of uneven monster scaling. Though it is campaign specific (if all you fight are medium humanoids then combat maneuvers works quite well). Agile-dex builds do have the advantage of having to only focus on one physical stat that bumps offense, damage, and defense at the same time.
It's a custom campaign so no other's besides human and perhaps tiefling will be available out of those you mentioned.
The campaign will hold us fighting most of the time medium humanoid creatures, with the occasional unnatural beings like undead or dragons or whatever lurks in that world.
Yeah so Invulnerable Rager > Brutal Pugilist? The DR just seems that useful. Full BAB also is in my opinion the best option, but I think by taking the 2 monk levels, you get the style feats that are a great boon.
Do you happen to know any builds for a natural attack/unarmed attack barbarian?
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Been trying to create an unarmed barbarian that can compete with a monk/brawler at unarmed dmg and grappling. I know it won't be as good with dmg but on the grappling it can do good also you get rage powers for utility.
Skip the monk and take the fighter Unarmed archetype:
STR+16
DEX:15
CON:14
INT:07
WIS:14
CHA:12 (the girls like us)
(Advantage of the strength build over the min/max'ed DEX/Agile/urban build: cheaper, saves feats, and you can enchant MBP with Brawling quicker than waiting for Celestial Armor to be available.
traits: berserker of the society,
01 barb1 Extra Rage, Raging Vitality
02 fight1 [Unarmed:Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style]
03 fight2 [Harsh Training+1], WF: Unarmed Strike, Two Weapon Fighting
04 fight3 DEX>16, [Tough Guy]
05 fight4 Weapon Specialization: Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple
06 fight5 Weapon Training: all monk weapons and natural attacks
07 barb2 [Reckless Abandon+1], FEAT (something grapple related?)
08 barb3 or fight6 ...etc
Strength is 22 raging with a belt. You'll own Gloves of Dueling, Mithril breastplate (or other medium>light armor) with the Brawling property, and a Furious (and eventually Furyborn Amulet of Mighty Fists.
At 8th...
att: 8 +6(STR)+3{WT/GD}+2(Br)+2(Aomf)+1{WF}+1{RA} = +23, or +21/+21/+16 full
dmg: d3+15(+3 if first hit in the round due to Dragon Style)