|
Hello all.
Witch Hexes....
Nails(Ex): Effect: The witch’s nails are long and sharp, and count as natural weapons that deal 1d3 points of damage (1d2 for a Small witch). These attacks are secondary attacks. If trimmed, the witch’s nails regrow to their normal size in 1d4 days.
What does “These attacks are secondary attacks.” mean? If i am wielding nothing at all and decide to claw my opponent to shreds my two claw attacks take -5 to hit ?!
Is that a bit bizarre?! Or is it just bizarre?!
All help appreciated and since some of my past posts somehow "upset" some ppl I would like to offer beforehand a sincere apology and a request that "upset" ppl need not reply to this post.
Thanks again,
Morlaf
Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as Dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature’s description.
So, a Witches claws attack at full BAB -5, and only add 1/2 her Str mod to damage.
Yes, this is an exception to the general rules, but that's okay since it is noted in the ability.
It goes ok with prehensile hair as you are now armed and can do some damage in the grapple. Also means you are armed and can make attacks of opportunity.
Yeah, if you have a way to get a Primary natural attack (say, a Maw Tiefling) then it isn't bad. Then you are where most natural attack users are (a primary and secondary).
Eh... not really. If you're focusing on natural attacks it's very easy to get claws via the Ranger/Barb/Alchemist, and those are all primary (AND the Barb or Alchemist will eventually get pounce). If you're touching Witch at all it's a 1 level dip in White-Haired Witch.
If you're not focusing on natural attacks there are much better hexes to take. Witch has too many trap options, it almost makes her look like a Fighter (heyooo).
|
|
Thanks for your input guys but it is just a ludicrous idea how these are secondary attacks - in the absence of all other weapons. It made a nice little "last resort - self defense in melee" thingy for some1 who just wanted to be a witch (a primarily spell-casting-kinda class).
Also the ideas bout white hair witches and grappling etc, the -5 penalty still applies - I Think! The only "advantage" is that it is considered "light" so no further penalties.
I mean what were the game-designers worried about? A witch... with a 3/4 BAB progression.... their d6/level hp... and their low str are suddenly gonna overpower every1 and unbalance the game?!
I will think about this further and reflect on your insights but I am struggling to find any vestige of sanity in it.
Thanks,
Morlaf
Umm.. the above posters are only half correct.
Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.
The dragon exception applies such that even if it makes attacks with all of its natural attacks, it's bite is always a primary with 1.5 Str damage. However, if the witch has nails, and only nails, as a natural attack it treats it as a primary attack.
You last resort to grow nails and claw works as a primary natural attack. Enjoy.
To clarify:
You have two hands with nails (effectively a claw + claw attack).
You do not qualify for the full BAB +1.5 STR because you have more than one natural attack (2 claws). [first bold sentence]
Even if you only use one claw attack, you do not get to use full BAB and 1.5 STR because you have multiple attacks and have only chosen to take one. [second bold sentence]
However, you qualify for the last sentence in that you only have one type of attack (claws) and have multiple attacks per round (2), so they are treated as a primary attack (which is Full BAB + Full Str), regardless of type (original type was secondary). [third bold sentence]
Generally, this is why people prefer prehensile hair over nails because being only a single natural attack, it qualifies for the first bold sentence and thus recieves Full BAB + 1.5 STR in addition to 10ft natural reach. The trade off is limited use on the hair (lvl minutes /per day, usable in 1 min increments) vs. constant effect on the nails. The reach is nice on the hair for delivering touch attacks (which witches have a lot of) and using Int in place of Str which ought to be higher.
So if you only use your claws, they are treated as primary attacks with full BAB and full STR. Remember that if you have something in either hand, it prevents only that hand from delivering the attack. So if you had a wand but had need to claw, you couldn't with the wand hand but could with the off-hand at Full BAB + Full STR.
Also if you wield a weapon in one hand you can still attack with off-hand claws, but doing so treats it as a secondary attack once again so -5 BAB and 1/2 STR.
|
|
now [b]that[b], Lacdannan, is an interesting twist.
I aint interested in prehensile hair, wielding another weapon, adding a dragon's bite attack or anything else.
I think you are basically agreeing with me and stating that if i just have claws i get two attacks at full BAB with full str damage.
In light of this, if i have understood you correctly, the Hex of "Claws(Ex)" is now, once again, a "nice little power!"
Thanks,
Morlaf.
I know a few people from Newfoundland Canada who talk and write with a silent or missing H. I had one guy always telling to wear my ard hat on the job site. Another person was having trouble finding hesitate in the dictionary under E. Had good laughs, great people.
You title just reminded of those two.
If you have 2 claws and either a bite or a hair attack you now qualify for Multiattack which lets you make a weapon attack at no penalty and all of your natural attacks at only -2. You will of course run into the issue of not being able to wield weapons in your hands and make claw attacks at the same time but you can't have everything. Unless you are playing PFS in which case you can't take Multiattack because it is a "monster" feat. In general claws combine well with unarmed strikes and not much else.
I think you are basically agreeing with me and stating that if i just have claws i get two attacks at full BAB with full str damage.
Exactly. Also note that since the nails are constant, you now threaten all adjacent squares at all times as long as you have a hand free, allowing you to take attacks of opportunity, which is handy.
Get it...? Nails...? Handy...? I crack myself up.
Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.
Well, the first half of the bolded sentence doesn't apply.
"If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls."
Because the witch would have more than one natural attack, namely two claw attacks.
"If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type."
Is the normal rules for natural attacks, but
"Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as Dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature’s description."
says noted exceptions exist. The witch notes such an exception. The Dragon example is only that, an example.
Oh, and the title reminded me of Warhammer 40k Orks.
|
I would think that since it says, "these are secondary attacks" in the text for the nails ability, that they would be secondary attacks regardless of what the normal rules for natural attacks are.
Although that seems dumb to me, it seems to be the way it's written. If they meant for them to be at full BAB and STR bonus, why would they include that text?
Because there will be players/GMs who see the ability, and intend to build a witch using claws and weapon.
Or take other hexes such as prehensile hair, for more than one type of natural attack.Or add witch levels to a non-Core race, with inherent natural attacks.
A PC/NPC of one of the core book races, who only takes the claws ability may only have one type of natural attack, but the designers have to allow for other builds.
I would think that since it says, "these are secondary attacks" in the text for the nails ability, that they would be secondary attacks regardless of what the normal rules for natural attacks are.
Although that seems dumb to me, it seems to be the way it's written. If they meant for them to be at full BAB and STR bonus, why would they include that text?Because there will be players/GMs who see the ability, and intend to build a witch using claws and weapon.
Or take other hexes such as prehensile hair, for more than one type of natural attack.
Or add witch levels to a non-Core race, with inherent natural attacks.A PC/NPC of one of the core book races, who only takes the claws ability may only have one type of natural attack, but the designers have to allow for other builds.
I guess I would rewrite it to be that if you don't have a natural weapon then it's primary but if you do these are automatically secondary. But that's a houserule obviously.
My question would be how it would interact with someone like the Changeling that already has natural nail weapons that actually do more damage than the hex 1d4>1d3. Would they get another set of nails? That would be so freaky and awesome. Or would it buff the damage of the existing claw attack to something like 1d6 or 2d4? Saner but less awesome.
Y'know I might just post this question in the Ask James Jacobs thread...
I would think that since it says, "these are secondary attacks" in the text for the nails ability, that they would be secondary attacks regardless of what the normal rules for natural attacks are.
Although that seems dumb to me, it seems to be the way it's written. If they meant for them to be at full BAB and STR bonus, why would they include that text?
That's actually the standard wording for secondary attacks that become primary attacks when on their own. The alternative wording, of course, would make them always primary attacks.
As to why it was written that way,.... word count.
I would think that since it says, "these are secondary attacks" in the text for the nails ability, that they would be secondary attacks regardless of what the normal rules for natural attacks are.
Although that seems dumb to me, it seems to be the way it's written. If they meant for them to be at full BAB and STR bonus, why would they include that text?Because there will be players/GMs who see the ability, and intend to build a witch using claws and weapon.
Or take other hexes such as prehensile hair, for more than one type of natural attack.
Or add witch levels to a non-Core race, with inherent natural attacks.A PC/NPC of one of the core book races, who only takes the claws ability may only have one type of natural attack, but the designers have to allow for other builds.
Even here, it's a fairly standard trick to use some sort of natural weapon in conjunction with a reach weapon. One level of witch gives you the claw hex, a familiar (+4 to Initiative), and a few spell slots that can be used to self-buff. Not a bad trade for an otherwise vanilla martial.
|
|
nice - just caught up with this thread now as my weekend was busy.
Thank you, again for your patience.
So to answer the question:
"If my only weapons are my two claws, due to this hex, and i go all ape in melee with my opponent, do I take -5 to all my attacks?"
the answer, in one word, is:
"No".
Thanks again,
Morlaf