Can the cross-blooded and tattooed sorcerer archetypes be combined?


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Just what the title says.

Can the cross-blooded and tattooed sorcerer archetypes be combined?


Crossblooded changes the Bonus Feats class feature by combining the Bonus Feats choice for the two bloodlines. Tattooed swaps out your lvl 7 bonus feat. So it depends on whether trading away the feat learned at lvl 7 conflicts with the change involving combining the two feat lists. I'm trying to think of a situation that sets a precedent, but it's late and I'm sober so I'm drawing a blank.


I'm sure many posters here could argue the merits of their different positions ad nauseum. Just FAQ it!


Pretty sure its RAW no, but if your running a home game it wouldn't be hard to say that they do. Crossblooded isn't exactly the strongest archetype around. Great for dip, but that delay in getting each level of spells is a real stinger. -2 will on top of that is kicking while its down really.

Heads up, but they did make a FAQs about wild blooded and crossblooded already. Don't really agree with it myself, but here it is for reference.

FAQS wrote:

Sorcerer, Crossblooded and Wildblooded: Can I take both of these archetypes for the same character?

No, because the archetype rules say none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the class as another alternate class feature. Because the crossblooded and wildblooded sorcerer archetypes both alter the bloodline arcana and bloodline powers, they aren't compatible archetypes.

Note that it is certainly within the GM's purview to allow this combination. However, the character should not be able to use the crossblooded archetype's ability to select a lower-level bloodline power that was replaced by the wildblooded archetype. For example, a wildblooded brutal (abyssal) sorcerer replaces "strength of the abyss" with "wings of the abyss" at 9th level; the character has "paid" for the wildblooded archetype by giving up "strength of the abyss," and can't use the crossblooded bloodline to select "strength of the abyss" as her 15th-level or 20th-level bloodline power.


Archetypes can only be combined if the abilities they replace do not overlap. That even goes for lvl 20 abilities, even if you have no intention of ever reaching that level in sorcerer.
So look through ALL the abilities the archetypes replace and if nothing overlaps then you can absolutely combine them. You could theoretically combine endless amounts of archetypes as long as what they replace never overlaps.

To answer your question simply: None of the replaced abilities overlaps so yes you can. (Oups... See edit 2) But as always when you start to do weird stuff like combine archetypes it is best to run it by the GM.
EDIT: Ninjaed... And also... Crossblooded doesn't technically replace feats so shouldn't it still work by RAW?

@Shivok: Sorry, but your wording sounds like an order. I'm sure you aren't trying to do that because that would be rude. In any case I hardly think this qualifies as FAQ-worthy.

EDIT 2: Double ninjaed. Damn you MrSin.... Or should I say BATMAN? oO
Fair enough. There is an official FAQ and I have to revise my opinion and say that you cannot combine these particular archetypes.


Lifat wrote:
@Shivok: Sorry, but your wording sounds like an order. I'm sure you aren't trying to do that because that would be rude. In any case I hardly think this qualifies as FAQ-worthy.

It's definitely not an order, a suggestion to end a repetitive question.

Quote:

EDIT 2: Double ninjaed. Damn you MrSin.... Or should I say BATMAN? oO

Fair enough. There is an official FAQ and I have to revise my opinion and say that you cannot combine these particular archetypes.

I'm well aware of this FAQ and it addresses Cross-blooded and Wildblooded, doesn't say anything about tattooed archetypes. Using this FAQ as justification that the archetypes can't be combined is the same thing as using the the Quiggong Monk FAQ to justify that they can be combined.

Shadow Lodge

Shivok wrote:
Lifat wrote:
@Shivok: Sorry, but your wording sounds like an order. I'm sure you aren't trying to do that because that would be rude. In any case I hardly think this qualifies as FAQ-worthy.

It's definitely not an order, a suggestion to end a repetitive question.

Quote:

EDIT 2: Double ninjaed. Damn you MrSin.... Or should I say BATMAN? oO

Fair enough. There is an official FAQ and I have to revise my opinion and say that you cannot combine these particular archetypes.
I'm well aware of this FAQ and it addresses Cross-blooded and Wildblooded, doesn't say anything about tattooed archetypes. Using this FAQ as justification that the archetypes can't be combined is the same thing as using the the Quiggong Monk FAQ to justify that they can be combined.

Difference between Qinggong and Crossblooded:

Monks needed a buff, and could still use one. They are both Martials[which are behind casters by a fair margin] and relatively underpowered.

Sorcerers Are a Full 9 level Arcane Spellcasting class which has spontaneous casting. They really don't need a buff.

So Qinggong was a buff to monks and Crossblooded was not a buff to sorcerers.

Note:
I am not a developer, and have read no developer input thinking that this was the reasoning behind the differences between Crossblooded and Wildblooded. So this probably isn't the logic the Developers used. But still, its a logic that can apply.


Shivok wrote:
Lifat wrote:
@Shivok: Sorry, but your wording sounds like an order. I'm sure you aren't trying to do that because that would be rude. In any case I hardly think this qualifies as FAQ-worthy.

It's definitely not an order, a suggestion to end a repetitive question.

Quote:

EDIT 2: Double ninjaed. Damn you MrSin.... Or should I say BATMAN? oO

Fair enough. There is an official FAQ and I have to revise my opinion and say that you cannot combine these particular archetypes.
I'm well aware of this FAQ and it addresses Cross-blooded and Wildblooded, doesn't say anything about tattooed archetypes. Using this FAQ as justification that the archetypes can't be combined is the same thing as using the the Quiggong Monk FAQ to justify that they can be combined.

It would probably have been productive to supply links to both FAQs in your original post if you already knew about them and the controversy.

As far as I can read, and I may have missed something, the FAQ on wildblooded being incompatible with crossblooded says so because crossblooded actually alters one of the abilities that the wildblooded archetype replaces. Qinggong Monk doesn't actually change or alter any of the abilities that the healing hand archetype replaces. Thus the two FAQs are compatible as far as I can tell.
And if I'm correct in that reading, then Crossblooded alters one of the abilities that the tattooed sorcerer replaces, which means it would not be combinable.
I do think however that the two FAQs are so questionable that I would probably allow it in my own games.


MrSin wrote:

Pretty sure its RAW no, but if your running a home game it wouldn't be hard to say that they do. Crossblooded isn't exactly the strongest archetype around. Great for dip, but that delay in getting each level of spells is a real stinger. -2 will on top of that is kicking while its down really.

Heads up, but they did make a FAQs about wild blooded and crossblooded already. Don't really agree with it myself, but here it is for reference.

FAQS wrote:

Sorcerer, Crossblooded and Wildblooded: Can I take both of these archetypes for the same character?

No, because the archetype rules say none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the class as another alternate class feature. Because the crossblooded and wildblooded sorcerer archetypes both alter the bloodline arcana and bloodline powers, they aren't compatible archetypes.

Note that it is certainly within the GM's purview to allow this combination. However, the character should not be able to use the crossblooded archetype's ability to select a lower-level bloodline power that was replaced by the wildblooded archetype. For example, a wildblooded brutal (abyssal) sorcerer replaces "strength of the abyss" with "wings of the abyss" at 9th level; the character has "paid" for the wildblooded archetype by giving up "strength of the abyss," and can't use the crossblooded bloodline to select "strength of the abyss" as her 15th-level or 20th-level bloodline power.

He's talking about crossblooded and tattooed, not wildblooded. Crossblooded gives optional changes to bloodline powers in the same way that Qinggong Monk gives optional changes to most Monk class abilities; you can apply the optional change to any such options that aren't changed by some other archetype. Tattooed may swap out your bloodline powers at lvls 1 and 9, but it's the same as picking a Monk archetype along with Qinggong; you can swap any base Monk skills you still possess, but can't swap the new abilities granted by an archetype, nor can you recover the traded base class abilities at a later level. The real barrier, if any, to this combo is whether extending a list of bonus feats counts sufficiently as "changing" the class ability when put up against losing the bonus feat you gain at a certain level. And I think it probably does. Ergo, this combo probably doesn't work on the grounds that you can't combine the two feat lists and trade out your bonus feat earned at lvl 7.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

No it doesn't. We know the answer to this already.

FAQ wrote:

Sorcerer, Crossblooded and Wildblooded: Can I take both of these archetypes for the same character?

No, because the archetype rules say none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the class as another alternate class feature. Because the crossblooded and wildblooded sorcerer archetypes both alter the bloodline arcana and bloodline powers, they aren't compatible archetypes.

Note that it is certainly within the GM's purview to allow this combination. However, the character should not be able to use the crossblooded archetype's ability to select a lower-level bloodline power that was replaced by the wildblooded archetype. For example, a wildblooded brutal (abyssal) sorcerer replaces "strength of the abyss" with "wings of the abyss" at 9th level; the character has "paid" for the wildblooded archetype by giving up "strength of the abyss," and can't use the crossblooded bloodline to select "strength of the abyss" as her 15th-level or 20th-level bloodline power.

Source

Crossblooded specifically alters the bloodline arcana and the bloodline powers, as defined by the above FAQ. Therefore, both crossblooded and tattooed sorcerer alter the first level bloodline feature, which means these aren't compatible.

The difference between Qinggong and Crossblooded is this: Qinggong monk can choose to replace abilities. If they don't want to replace anything, then there is a default that they go back to. Crossblooded has to change everything - they pick 2 bloodlines and mix them, they don't pick one bloodline as a default then choose which to replace. There is no default if they choose not to replace something.

If you're arguing that tattooed sorcerer and crossblooded should mix, please give a convincing argument why tattooed sorcerer is significantly different from wildblooded that it deserves its own FAQ.

(And yes, I know the bottom of that FAQ says that GMs can rule a different way if they like. That doesn't make it the official ruling, just a suggestion as to how to keep it balanced if you do decide to rule that way as a home GM. It's certainly not binding for PFS at any rate.)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Shivok wrote:
this FAQ as justification that the archetypes can't be combined is the same thing as using the the Quiggong Monk FAQ to justify that they can be combined.

The difference is the Q Monk is unique in that it is an archetype that if you make no choices, it doesn't do anything and doesn't replace or modify anything.

All the other things modify, add, remove, or otherwise alter things.

Some people choose to avoid the dictionary definition of alter when it comes to adding beneficial things, but addition is altering.


"A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature".

Cross-blooded alters your class features; "A or B" is different from "A". The archetypes can't be combined unless your GM allows it.

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