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This post assumes that the synthesist class needs to be reduced in power in certain ways. Please do not respond with posts about why this assumption is incorrect.
I like the synthesist class, but after debate decided that for my homebrew campaign it would need to have some specific house rules to lower it's strength. I would love comments and suggestions about how I have done so.
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Summarized adjustments:
- Eidolon natural armor/armor bonus may not exceed the creatures natural armor bonus (and never above +10)
- No improved natural armor evolutions.
- Ability improvements may only be applied to Strength.
- Shield spells will not work with the eidolon.
- Mage armor does not stack with the eidolons natural armor/armor bonus.
- While merged, a synthesist gains only half of the Eidolons hit points as temporary hit points.
- While merged, a synthesist cannot cast spells (other than healing spells and cantrips). If the Eidolon has not been dismissed, then it may be suppressed as a swift action (thereby allowing spells to be cast, but gaining no eidolon benefits) and re-merged as a full-round action.
- If the merged form has higher physical Ability Scores than the summoner alone, then any improvements are considered Enhancement modifiers (and thus do not stack with other Enhancement modifiers like Bull Strength). The merged base form may only a Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution 2 higher than the summoner's (for example, a Summoner Str 10 merging with a Biped Str 16 would have a base Str 12. Ability score increases after this work as normal.
I haven't had my coffee yet, so I'll have to review in more depth later, but I like how you've managed to block a lot of the cheese factor available just by typing certain bonuses. I'm slightly confused, however: if strength evolutions are bought, can the eidolon a strength score exceed the "within 2" qualification or no?
One of the things I do for the standard summoner is make them use one of the eidolon models. Unfortunately, that hasn't helped much with their action economy.
Question, does the strength increase for the large evolution count against the only 2 higher? What about the periodic stat increases? By 20th level you have flat +8 to strength and 3 ability score increases. I could see having such a limitation based on the base form (if you want to get the most out of a bipedal eidolon your summoner heeds to have a 14 strength on his own). But if this applies to the various ways that increases the eidolons strength that is a problem.
Also I think you are going a bit too far on the armor class nerfs. Its true the eidolons and synthesists can get some pretty high ACs, but you seem to be removing every means by which they could increase their AC (including increasing their dexterity). That is going to greatly diminish their ability to be capable frontliners in most cases (which presumably a synthesist wants to be). A synthesists actual armor does not apply to his AC when merged, with no ability to increase it via magic or evolutions a fused synthesist will have VERY low ACs for a melee combatant.
My personal view has been that in order to fix the summoner in general you just divide evolitions into offense, defense, and utility, and require that the summoner split their evolutions between them. That alone for the most part balances them with a reasonably well put together druid.
I also get the desire to somehow mitigate the codzilla effect of the synth replacing ability scores. You might be on to something there, though that would depend on the answer to my first question
You might find this topic interesting: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pga0&page=1?Synthesist-Reborn
There they also rebuild the synthesist summoner and one of the things they did is that it's more like polymorph effects. for example the eidolon gives an enhancement bonus to your physical stats instead of replacing them. Instead of getting temporary hitpoint it simply increases your constitution. They also make some things, like pounce, available from level 4 instead of level 1. I'm using that rebuild synthesist summoner version now and it's working quite well so far and it's very clear how it works, compared to the mess which is the standard synthesist summoner.
I think your own idea goes too far on the armor nerfs as Kolokotroni mentioned. Not to sure about not being able to cast spells either. A druid can do it with a feat, why not add a feat for the synthesist summoner so he can do the same?
I also think your ability stat changes are a bit too severe. I'd advice to look closer at the scaling of Wildshaping and to add scaling like that. Or check how they do it in the topic I linked, there the str/dex bonus scales from +1 at level 2 to +8 at level 20 and they are enhancement bonuses, so they do not scale with items like belts. The chosen base type adds a bit more to it at level 1 and 3 (Biped adds a total of 4 str and 4 con, while Quadruped adds 2 str, 2 dex and 4 con). The constitution enhancement bonus never goes beyond four, which is plenty of extra hp.
For comparison, a druid can, using wildshape to turn into a huge elemental, with elemental body he can get +8 str, or +6 con. For the druid they are all size bonuses, so they stack with the enhancement bonuses from belts. That +8 str can easily become +14, or the +6 con can become +12 con. And the druid can still cast 9th level spells while wildshaped too.
The fundamental problem with synthesist is that it broke the same thing Druids broke in 3.5, in that it allows you to dump three physical stats and then replace them. All you need to do, to fix synthesist, is put it back on the same sort of track that Druid is in Pathfinder, since that was implemented to fix the same problem the last time around.
(why the modern paizo developers made the same error with synthesist that the previous round of guys made with druid is another question, I suppose)
So instead of having it replace physical stats, have it modify them.
In other words, do this:
You might find this topic interesting: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pga0&page=1?Synthesist-Reborn
There they also rebuild the synthesist summoner and one of the things they did is that it's more like polymorph effects. for example the eidolon gives an enhancement bonus to your physical stats instead of replacing them. Instead of getting temporary hitpoint it simply increases your constitution. They also make some things, like pounce, available from level 4 instead of level 1. I'm using that rebuild synthesist summoner version now and it's working quite well so far and it's very clear how it works, compared to the mess which is the standard synthesist summoner.
(why the modern paizo developers made the same error with synthesist that the previous round of guys made with druid is another question, I suppose
Paizo has a habit of changing things only to reintroduce it later and pretend it is new with flavor refluff (see Sin magic and 3.5 prohibited schools for specialization).
Edit: A lot of the folks who worked on/designed 3.0 and 3.5 have also worked on Pathfinder at one point or another. It isn't quite so surprising that mistakes are continually repeated, with that in mind.
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I'm slightly confused, however: if strength evolutions are bought, can the eidolon a strength score exceed the "within 2" qualification or no?
I tried to clarify this with the entry that "Ability score increases after this work as normal." I meant that there was no restrictions on ability increases after the starting scores. It's basically a way to stop stat dumping. In a point buy system, a Synthesists who wants a starting Strength of 16 as a Biped, has to have a Strength 14 himself and thus end up with slightly lower mental stats. I will clarify this further in the rule.
One of the things I do for the standard summoner is make them use one of the eidolon models. Unfortunately, that hasn't helped much with their action economy.
I do this a variation on this as well. I have them model their Eidolon after a existing creature. If the creature doesn't have the ability, then they can't choose it as a Eidolon. Since most monsters are fairly well-balanced (plus have cool backgrounds), then it makes the class more interesting as well as structured.
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Question, does the strength increase for the large evolution count against the only 2 higher? What about the periodic stat increases? By 20th level you have flat +8 to strength and 3 ability score increases. I could see having such a limitation based on the base form (if you want to get the most out of a bipedal eidolon your summoner heeds to have a 14 strength on his own). But if this applies to the various ways that increases the eidolons strength that is a problem.
The limitation on the merged ability increase being within 2 of the Synthesist Strength only applies to the starting core form (for example, bipedal starts with Str 16). It does not apply to increases after that. Note that with the Ability increases being counted as Enhancement modifiers, a +11 Strength (Strength 27 for a biped) could not be combined with a Bull Strength spell (which other classes could still benefit from).
Also I think you are going a bit too far on the armor class nerfs. Its true the eidolons and synthesists can get some pretty high ACs, but you seem to be removing every means by which they could increase their AC (including increasing their dexterity). That is going to greatly diminish their ability to be capable frontliners in most cases (which presumably a synthesist wants to be). A synthesists actual armor does not apply to his AC when merged, with no ability to increase it via magic or evolutions a fused synthesist will have VERY low ACs for a melee combatant.
They can of course still use rings of protection (deflection bonuses), blur spells, stoneskin, turn invisible, etc. I did do a calculation for a Synthesists vs a two-weapon fighter, a beast totem barbarian, and a orcale (all using only the class abilities and no magic items except for magic armor). What I found was the with the above suggested house rules, the Synthesist ended up with a AC 29, the Barbarian AC 29, the Fighter AC 32, and the Oracle AC 20. I did want the Synthesists to be able to be in melee with the fighter types, but did not want him to do everything the melee fighters can do, plus have all the benefits beyond that of teleporting, turning invisible, etc. Otherwise, the fighter classes would lose their appeal.
My personal view has been that in order to fix the summoner in general you just divide evolutions into offense, defense, and utility, and require that the summoner split their evolutions between them. That alone for the most part balances them with a reasonably well put together druid.
I did indeed have a separate house rule that basically made them model their Eidolon after an existing creature type. If a griffon doesn't have 4 arms, neither can they (if thats their model). It didn't end up being enough of a adjustment (in my opinion of course), but it did help alot.
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You might find this topic interesting: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pga0&page=1?Synthesist-Reborn
There they also rebuild the synthesist summoner and one of the things they did is that it's more like polymorph effects. for example the eidolon gives an enhancement bonus to your physical stats instead of replacing them. Instead of getting temporary hitpoint it simply increases your constitution. They also make some things, like pounce, available from level 4 instead of level 1. I'm using that rebuild synthesist summoner version now and it's working quite well so far and it's very clear how it works, compared to the mess which is the standard synthesist summoner.
I did look at that writeup briefly. I still wasn't happy that a Synthesist could then top-load it by taking a even higher starting Strength (such as 18) and end up with a Biped Strength of 23 at 2nd level. I am definitely considering some of his modifications though :o).
I think your own idea goes too far on the armor nerfs as Kolokotroni mentioned. Not to sure about not being able to cast spells either. A druid can do it with a feat, why not add a feat for the synthesist summoner so he can do the same?
See my response to Kolokotroni for the armor nerf (also please remember that this thread isn't about whether a synthesist needs nerfing or not. It has the assumption that it does).
The reasoning behind limitation on spellcasting was that the Synthesist appears to be able to fight just as well as the barbarian and fighter, but also fly, turn invisible, teleport, etc. This would make the melee front line fighter classes much less desirable. The Oracle, which like the synthesist is designed to be a melee fighter and yet have casting abilities is far behind the synthesist in hit/damage output, armor class, and hit points.. thus the balancing factor of the spellcasting.
By allowing the summoner to use a swift action to suppress the eidolon, he can on his turn shift out and cast spells as needed (many of them with a casting time far longer than a few rounds). Its at these times that things like mage armor/shield/etc are useful to him. It means he is less likely to wear the eidolon suit the whole time. He can wade into combat as a merged form at the start of the fighter, suppress the eidolon and cast spells as a supporting caster for awhile, then take a round to shift back when he is needed in melee again.
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I also think your ability stat changes are a bit too severe. I'd advice to look closer at the scaling of Wildshaping and to add scaling like that. Or check how they do it in the topic I linked, there the str/dex bonus scales from +1 at level 2 to +8 at level 20 and they are enhancement bonuses, so they do not scale with items like belts. The chosen base type adds a bit more to it at level 1 and 3 (Biped adds a total of 4 str and 4 con, while Quadruped adds 2 str, 2 dex and 4 con). The constitution enhancement bonus never goes beyond four, which is plenty of extra hp. For comparison, a druid can, using wildshape to turn into a huge elemental, with elemental body he can get +8 str, or +6 con. For the druid they are all size bonuses, so they stack with the enhancement bonuses from belts. That +8 str can easily become +14, or the +6 con can become +12 con. And the druid can still cast 9th level spells while wildshaped too.
I took a look at the druid wildshaping. Looking at the beast progression it's a progression similar to:
- 4th Medium Beast: +2 Str, +2 natural armor
- 6th Large Beast: +4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 natural armor, -1 AC/atk rolls
- 8th Huge Beast: +6 Str, -4 Dex, +6 natural armor, -2 AC/atk rolls
- 10th Large Earth Elemental: +6 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, +6 natural armor, -1 AC/atk rolls
- 12th Huge Earth Elemental: +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +6 natural armor, -2 AC/atk rolls
A synthesist with the modified stat increase mentioned at the top of the post could have a eidolon with the following progression:
- 1st Biped (Medium): +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
- 4th Biped (Medium): +3 Str, +3 Dex, +2 Con, +4 natural armor, +2 shielded meld armor, evasion
- 6th Biped (Medium): +5 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +6 natural armor, +2 shielded meld armor
- 8th Biped (Medium): +6 Str, +5 Dex, +2 Con, +8 natural armor, +2 shielded meld armor
- 10th Biped (Medium): +8 Str, +6 Dex, +2 Con, +10 natural armor, +2 shielded meld armor
- 12th Biped (Medium): +9 Str, +7 Dex, +2 Con, +10 natural armor, +4 greater shielded meld armor
In this comparison, the Synthesists appears to come out well ahead of the Druid in my opinion.
They can of course still use rings of protection (deflection bonuses), blur spells, stoneskin, turn invisible, etc. I did do a calculation for a Synthesists vs a two-weapon fighter, a beast totem barbarian, and a orcale (all using only the class abilities and no magic items except for magic armor). What I found was the with the above suggested house rules, the Synthesist ended up with a AC 29, the Barbarian AC 29, the Fighter AC 32, and the Oracle AC 20. I did want the Synthesists to be able to be in melee with the fighter types, but did not want him to do everything the melee fighters can do, plus have all the benefits beyond that of teleporting, turning invisible, etc. Otherwise, the fighter classes would lose their appeal.
Regardless of what they end up with, you are talking about starting (at level 1) with like an AC of 14 (assuming a 15 point buy and with your ability restrictions). That is really low for a front line character. It might even out at higher levels because of the scaling Nat Armor bonuses, but it seems problematic at low levels, at which point you dont have any of the spells you mentioned.
Dont have acccess to the link you posted for your calculations, what level is that? Why compare against a barbarian (who's primary defense is not AC)?
I did indeed have a separate house rule that basically made them model their Eidolon after an existing creature type. If a griffon doesn't have 4 arms, neither can they (if thats their model). It didn't end up being enough of a adjustment (in my opinion of course), but it did help alot.
It wasnt enough of an adjustment compared to what? I've found that when you either provide some kind of model (like you did) or force them to spread out their evolutions they are about on par with a druid that has taken some effort to building a combat character. Which is the closest analogue a summoner has in the core rules The eidolon is stronger then an animal companion, but not by a big margin if the companion has barding, and you take one of the better ones, but the druid has 9 levels of spell casting and wildshape. What is your basis for comparison?
I took a look at the druid wildshaping. Looking at the beast progression it's a progression similar to:
•4th Medium Beast: +2 Str, +2 natural armor
•6th Large Beast: +4 Str, -2 Dex, +4 natural armor, -1 AC/atk rolls
•8th Huge Beast: +6 Str, -4 Dex, +6 natural armor, -2 AC/atk rolls
•10th Large Earth Elemental: +6 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, +6 natural armor, -1 AC/atk rolls
•12th Huge Earth Elemental: +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +6 natural armor, -2 AC/atk rolls
A synthesist with the modified stat increase mentioned at the top of the post could have a eidolon with the following progression:
•1st Biped (Medium): +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 natural armor
•4th Biped (Medium): +3 Str, +3 Dex, +2 Con, +4 natural armor, +2 shielded meld armor, evasion
•6th Biped (Medium): +5 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +6 natural armor, +2 shielded meld armor
•8th Biped (Medium): +6 Str, +5 Dex, +2 Con, +8 natural armor, +2 shielded meld armor
•10th Biped (Medium): +8 Str, +6 Dex, +2 Con, +10 natural armor, +2 shielded meld armor
•12th Biped (Medium): +9 Str, +7 Dex, +2 Con, +12 natural armor, +4 greater shielded meld armor
In this comparison, the Synthesists appears to come out well ahead of the Druid in my opinion.
Keep in mind this is only against a portion of what the druid can do. The druid still has 9 levels of spellcasting to the summoners 6, and an animal companion that is (potentially) just as capable in combat as he is. That makes a very big difference. Keep in mind, I like where you are going with this, and its possible your method of tying the bonus to the base creatures score vs the summoners own score is intriguing. I think you may need to reconsider some of your numbers though. Or at least compare whole picture vs whole picture, not single aspect vs single aspect.
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Regardless of what they end up with, you are talking about starting (at level 1) with like an AC of 14 (assuming a 15 point buy and with your ability restrictions). That is really low for a front line character. It might even out at higher levels because of the scaling Nat Armor bonuses, but it seems problematic at low levels, at which point you dont have any of the spells you mentioned.
With mage armor going you could expect something similar to:
- Lvl 1: AC 15 (12 dex, +4 mage armor), +4/+4/+4 bite/2claws [1d8+3, 2x1d4+3] (Str 16, BAB+1), Hp 8=5+3 (HD 1d8+1/2[1d10+1]), Evolution pool 3 (bite, pounce, imp dmg [bite]), darkvision, Spells 1st
This is compared to
- Barbarian: AC 16 (16 dex, +5 scale, -2 rage), +5 greataxe [1d12+6] (Str 14+4, BAB+1), Hp 13 (HD 1d12+5), Rage (+4 Str/Con/-2 AC included)
- Fighter: AC 17 (15 dex, +5 scale), +3/+3 2shortswords [1d6+4, 1d6+2] (Str 18, BAB+1), Hp 8 (HD 1d10+1), 2-weapon fighting
- Oracle: AC 17 (15 dex, +5 scale), +1/+1 2shortswords [1d6+3, 1d6+1] (Str 16, BAB+0), Hp 5 (HD 1d8), skill at arms, 2-weapon fighting, Spells 1st
The Synthesist at 1st level has a slightely lower AC, better hit/dmg ability, and average hit points for the melee types.
Dont have acccess to the link you posted for your calculations, what level is that? Why compare against a barbarian (who's primary defense is not AC)?
Here is the full breakdown with the calculations. I compared to a Barbarian (as well as a fighter and a oracle) since he is a front-line fighter. Since the Synthesist is often going to be in the front-lines as well, it seems appropriate.
Example: Leonal Agathion (weapon use allowed): bipedal (includes limbs (arms), limbs (legs), claws, darkvision, natural armor+2)
- 1 pt: bite, pounce, improved damage (can be taken upto 4 times for claw/claw/rake/bite), skilled (acrobatics/stealth), resistance (cold or sonic), scent, low-light vision
- 2 pt: grab (bite), rake (4th), weapon training (simple)
- 3 pt: damage reduction (evil, 9th), celestial appearance
- 4 pt: weapon training (martial)
- Comparison is vs a Half-Elf Barbarian (beast totem), breastplate [max dex+3], Str 14, Dex 16, Con 16
- Comparison is vs a Half-Elf Fighter (2-weapon warrior), full-plate [max dex+1], Str 18, Dex 15, Con 13
- Comparison is vs a Half-Elf Oracle (Battle), full-plate [max dex+1], Str 16, Dex 15, Con 11, Cha 15
--------------------- No improved natural armor evolutions + Max armor/natural armor +10 + 1/2 bonus hp
Lvl 1: AC 13 (12 dex, +2 natural armor), +4/+4/+4 bite/2claws [1d8+3, 2x1d4+3] (Str 16, BAB+1), Hp 8=5+3 (HD 1d8+1/2[1d10+1]), Evolution pool 3 (bite, pounce, imp dmg [bite]), darkvision, Spells 1st
- vs B: AC 16 (16 dex, +5 scale, -2 rage), +5 greataxe [1d12+6] (Str 14+4, BAB+1), Hp 13 (HD 1d12+5), Rage (+4 Str/Con/-2 AC included)
- vs F: AC 17 (15 dex, +5 scale), +3/+3 2shortswords [1d6+4, 1d6+2] (Str 18, BAB+1), Hp 8 (HD 1d10+1), 2-weapon fighting
- vs O: AC 17 (15 dex, +5 scale), +1/+1 2shortswords [1d6+3, 1d6+1] (Str 16, BAB+0), Hp 5 (HD 1d8), skill at arms, 2-weapon fighting, Spells 1st
Lvl 2: AC 15 (13 dex, +4 natural armor), +5/+5/+5 (Str 17, BAB+2), Hp 16=10+6 (HD 2d8+1/2[2d10+2]), Evolution pool 4 (skilled [stealth]), evasion, Spells 1st
- vs B: AC 17 (16 dex, +6 breastplate, -2 rage), +6/+6 2claws [2x1d6+4] (Str 14+4, BAB+2), Hp 26 (HD 2d12+10), Claws
- vs F: AC 20 (15 dex, +9 full-plate), +4/+4 [2x1d6+4] (Str 18, BAB+2), Hp 16 (HD 2d10+2), double slice
- vs O: AC 20 (15 dex, +9 full-plate), +2/+2 (Str 16, BAB+1), Hp 10 (HD 2d8), Spells 1st
Lvl 3: AC 15 (13 dex, +4 natural armor), +6/+6/+6 (Str 17, BAB+3), Hp 25=15+10 (HD 3d8+1/2[3d10+3]), Evolution pool 5 (scent), Spells 1st
- vs B: AC 18 (16 dex, +7 breastplate+1, -2 rage), +7/+7 (Str 14+4, BAB+3), Hp 39 (HD 3d12+15)
- vs F: AC 21 (15 dex, +9 full-plate, +1 dodge), +5/+5 (Str 18, BAB+3), Hp 24 (HD 3d10+3), Defensive Flurry (+1 dodge)
- vs O: AC 20 (15 dex, +9 full-plate), +3/+3 [2x1d6+2] (Str 16, BAB+2), Hp 15 (HD 3d8), double slice, Spells 1st
Lvl 4: AC 17 (13 dex, +4 natural armor, +2 shielded meld), +6/+6/+6 [1d8+3, 1d4+3, 1d6+3] (Str 17, BAB+3), Hp 30=20+10 (HD 4d8+1/2[3d10+3]), Evolution pool 7+1 (rake, imp dmg [claw]), Spells 1st-2nd
- vs B: AC 18 (16 dex, +7 breastplate+1, -2 rage), +3/+8/+8 bite/2claws [1d4+2, 2x1d6+4] (Str 14+4+1, BAB+4), Hp 52 (HD 4d12+20), Animal Fury (bite, secondary), Str+1
- vs F: AC 22 (15 dex, +10 full-plate+1, +1 dodge), +6/+6 [2x1d6+6] (Str 18+1, BAB+4), Hp 32 (HD 4d10+4), weapon spec, Str+1
- vs O: AC 20 (15+1 dex, +9 full-plate), +4/+4 (Str 16, BAB+3), Hp 20 (HD 4d8), Cha+1 (16), Spells 1st-2nd
Lvl 5: AC 20 (14 dex, +6 natural armor, +2 shielded meld), +8/+8/+8 [1d8+4, 1d4+4, 1d6+4] (Str 18+1, BAB+4), Hp 37=25+12 (HD 5d8+1/2[4d10+4]), Evolution pool 8+1 (low-light vision), ability increase (+1 str), Spells 1st-2nd
- vs B: AC 19 (16 dex, +8 breastplate+2, -2 rage), +4/+9/+9 (Str 14+4+1, BAB+5), Hp 65 (HD 5d12+25)
- vs F: AC 23 (15 dex, +11 full-plate+2, +1 dodge), +8/+8 [2x1d6+7] (Str 18+1, BAB+5, +1 twin blades), Hp 40 (HD 5d10+5), twin blades (+1 hit/dmg)
- vs O: AC 20 (15 dex, +9 full-plate), +4/+4 (Str 16, BAB+3), Hp 25 (HD 5d8), Spells 1st-2nd
Lvl 6: AC 20 (14 dex, +6 natural armor, +2 shielded meld), +9/+9/+9 [1d8+4, 2x1d6+4] (Str 18+1, BAB+5), Hp 45=30+15 (HD 6d8+1/2[5d10+5]), Evolution pool 9+1 (imp dmg [claw]), Spells 1st-2nd
- vs B: AC 21 (16 dex, +8 breastplate+2, -2 rage, +1 dodge, +1 natural armor), +5/+10/+10 (Str 14+4+1, BAB+6), Hp 78 (HD 6d12+30), Guarded Stance (+1 dodge), +1 natural armor
- vs F: AC 23 (15 dex, +11 full-plate+2, +1 dodge), +9/+9/+4 [3x1d6+7] (Str 18+1, BAB+6, +1 twin blades), Hp 48 (HD 6d10+6)
- vs O: AC 20 (15 dex, +9 full-plate), +5/+5 (Str 16, BAB+4), Hp 30 (HD 6d8), Spells 1st-3rd
Lvl 7: AC 22 (15 dex, +8 natural armor, +2 shielded meld), +11/+11/+11 [1d8+5, 2x1d6+5] (Str 19+1, BAB+6), Hp 54=35+19 (HD 7d8+1/2[6d10+6]), Evolution pool 10+1 (imp dmg [rake]), Spells 1st-3rd
- vs B: AC 22 (16 dex, +9 breastplate+3, -2 rage, +1 dodge, +1 natural armor), +6/+11/+11 (Str 14+4+1, BAB+7), Hp 91 (HD 7d12+35), DR 1
- vs F: AC 25 (15 dex, +12 full-plate+3, +2 dodge), +10/+10/+5 (Str 18+1, BAB+7, +1 twin blades), Hp 56 (HD 7d10+7), Defensive Flurry (+2 dodge)
- vs O: AC 20 (15 dex, +9 full-plate), +7/+7 (Str 16, BAB+5), Hp 35 (HD 7d8), Spells 1st-3rd
Lvl 10: AC 25 (16 dex, +10 natural armor, +2 shielded meld), +14/+14/+14 [1d8+6, 2x1d6+6] (Str 20+2, BAB+8), Hp 74=50+24 (HD 10d8+1/2[8d10+8]), Evolution pool 14+2 (?, damage reduction [3 pts], scent), multiattack, ability increase (+1 str), Spells 1st-4th
- vs B: AC 25 (16 dex, +11 breastplate+5, -2 rage, +1 dodge, +2 natural armor), +10/+15/+15 [1d4+2, 2x1d8+5] (Str 14+4+2, BAB+10), Hp 130 (HD 10d12+50), increased DR+1 (DR 3), Str+1, +2 natural armor, pounce
- vs F: AC 29 (15 dex, +14 full-plate+5, +3 dodge, +1 2-weapon defense), +15/+15/+10 [3x1d6+9] (Str 18+2, BAB+10, +2 twin blades), Hp 80 (HD 10d10+10), twin blades (+2 hit/dmg), 2-weapon defense, dodge, +1 Str
- vs O: AC 20 (15 dex, +9 full-plate), +8/+8/+3 (Str 16, BAB+7), Hp 50 (HD 10d8), Cha+1 (17), Spells 1st-5th
Lvl 15: AC 28 (18 dex, +10 natural armor, +4 greater shielded meld), +19/+19/+19 [1d8+7, 2x1d6+7] (Str 22+3, BAB+12), Hp 112=75+37 (HD 15d8+1/2[12d10+12]), Evolution pool 20+3 (celestial appearance [7 pts]), improved evasion, ability increase (+1 str), Spells 1st-5th
- vs B: AC 27 (16 dex, +11 breastplate+5, -2 rage, +2 dodge, +3 natural armor), +16/+21/+21 [1d4+3, 2x1d8+6] (Str 14+6+3, BAB+15), Hp 210 (HD 15d12+90), Rage (+6 Str/Con/-2 AC), 2xincreased DR+1 (DR 6), Str+1, +2 dodge, +3 natural armor
- vs F: AC 31 (15 dex, +14 full-plate+5, +5 dodge, +1 2-weapon defense), +23/+23/+18/+13 [4x1d6+10+1d10+7] (Str 18+3, BAB+8, +3 twin blades), Hp 120 (HD 15d10+15), Defensive Flurry (+4 dodge), twin blades (+3 hit/dmg), improved balance (+2 to hit 2-weapon fighting), Str+1, 2-weapon rend
- vs O: AC 20 (15 dex, +9 full-plate), +12/+12/+7/+2 (Str 16, BAB+11), Hp 75 (HD 15d8), Cha+1 (18), Spells 1st-7th
Lvl 20: AC 29 (20 dex, +10 natural armor, +4 greater shielded meld), +23/+23/+23 [1d8+8, 2x1d6+8] (Str 24+3, BAB+15), Hp 147=100+47 (HD 20d8+1/2[15d10+15]), Evolution pool 26+5 (?, damage reduction [+2 pts], grab [bite], resistance [cold/sonic], skilled [acrobatics]), Spells 1st-6th
- vs B: AC 29 (16 dex, +11 breastplate+5, -2 rage, +3 dodge, +4 natural armor), +23/+28/+28 [1d4+4, 2x1d8+8] (Str 14+8+5, BAB+20), Hp 300 (HD 20d12+140), Str+2, +3 dodge, +4 natural armor, DR 8, Rage (+8 Str/Con/-2 AC)
- vs F: AC 32 (15 dex, +14 full-plate+5, +6 dodge, +1 2-weapon defense), +30/+30/+25/+20 [4x1d6+14+1d10+7] (Str 18+4, BAB+8, +4 twin blades), Hp 180 (HD 20d10+40), twin blades (+4 hit/dmg), Defensive Flurry (+5 dodge), Str +1, Con +1, greater weapon spec
- vs O: AC 20 (15 dex, +9 full-plate), +16/+16/+11/+6 (Str 16, BAB+15), Hp 120 (HD 20d8+20), Cha+1 (19), Con+1, Spells 1st-9th
It wasnt enough of an adjustment compared to what? I've found that when you either provide some kind of model (like you did) or force them to spread out their evolutions they are about on par with a druid that has taken some effort to building a combat character. Which is the closest analogue a summoner has in the core rules The eidolon is stronger then an animal companion, but not by a big margin if...
For me, I did not find this same result. This posting is with the assumption that the changes I am working on are necessary. I understand that you feel that just spreading out the evolutions fixes the problem. I feel differently and would like help in determining the best way to adjust the class with that assumption as a bases.
Regardless of what they end up with, you are talking about starting (at level 1) with like an AC of 14 (assuming a 15 point buy and with your ability restrictions). That is really low for a front line character. It might even out at higher levels because of the scaling Nat Armor bonuses, but it seems problematic at low levels, at which point you dont have any of the spells you mentioned.With mage armor going you could expect something similar to:
- Lvl 1: AC 15 (12 dex, +4 mage armor), +4/+4/+4 bite/2claws [1d8+3, 2x1d4+3] (Str 16, BAB+1), Hp 8=5+3 (HD 1d8+1/2[1d10+1]), Evolution pool 3 (bite, pounce, imp dmg [bite]), darkvision, Spells 1st
This is compared to
- Barbarian: AC 16 (16 dex, +5 scale, -2 rage), +5 greataxe [1d12+6] (Str 14+4, BAB+1), Hp 13 (HD 1d12+5), Rage (+4 Str/Con/-2 AC included)
- Fighter: AC 17 (15 dex, +5 scale), +3/+3 2shortswords [1d6+4, 1d6+2] (Str 18, BAB+1), Hp 8 (HD 1d10+1), 2-weapon fighting
- Oracle: AC 17 (15 dex, +5 scale), +1/+1 2shortswords [1d6+3, 1d6+1] (Str 16, BAB+0), Hp 5 (HD 1d8), skill at arms, 2-weapon fighting, Spells 1st
The Synthesist at 1st level has a slightely lower AC, better hit/dmg ability, and average hit points for the melee types.
Its not slightly lower. First off in My view the default assumed AC for a 1st level melee character is 18. Your 14 dex fighter will get breast plate as soon as he can which is fairly early if you go wealth by level (with traits it can even be had by character creation). By second or 3rd level, the fighter has fullplate, with an AC around 20-22. The synthesist still has a 15.
For me, I did not find this same result. This posting is with the assumption that the changes I am working on are necessary. I understand that you feel that just spreading out the evolutions fixes the problem. I feel differently and would like help in determining the best way to adjust the class with that assumption as a bases.
I understand that, and I am not trying to tell you that you dont need to change the class. I just want to understand where 'enough' is supposed to be. I think comparing the summoner to a fighter in terms of power is a pretty poor choice. The fighter, rogue, and monk are the least common denominator when it comes to power in the game, and using them as your measuring stick in a game with clerics, druids and wizards is going to create an over nerf.
Barbarian is a descent choice in some ways, but a poor one for comparing AC considering barbiarns have intentionally low ACs and instead of DR and a d12 hit die with no abilities (except certain archetypes) that increase armor class.
If you want to guage AC, fighter is a good choice for pure numbers, so is I think the paladin. But the most accurate model is a druids animal companion wearing barding.
Big Cat Companion
1st level
AC: 18 (+3 Dex, +1 Nat, +4 Barding) (assumed light armor prof and chain shirt barding)
3rd Level
AC: 20 (+3 Dex, +3 Nat, +4 Barding)
7th level
AC: 27 (+2 Dex, +7 Nat, +9 Barding - 1 size) (assumed +3 Breastplate Barding based pm what your barbarian had)
10th Level
AC: 32 (+3 Dex, +9 Nat, +11Barding - 1 size) (assumed +5 Breastplate Barding based on what your barbarian had and that the second ability score increase was used to even out dex)
15th Level
AC: 39 (+3 Dex, +15 Nat, +11Barding +1 dodge - 1 size) (+5 breast Plate, +2 Amulet of Natural Armor, Dodge Feat)
20th Level
AC: 44 (+3 Dex, +20 Nat, +11Barding +1 dodge - 1 size) (+5 breast Plate, +5 Amulet of Natural Armor, Dodge Feat)
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Its not slightly lower. First off in My view the default assumed AC for a 1st level melee character is 18. Your 14 dex fighter will get breast plate as soon as he can which is fairly early if you go wealth by level (with traits it can even be had by character creation). By second or 3rd level, the fighter has fullplate, with an AC around 20-22. The synthesist still has a 15.
I was providing a 1st level comparison.. the higher level ones below had the higher level comparisons. The fighter did indeed have 20, and the synthesists had 15, true, by 2nd level. On the other hand, the synthesist has more attacks (thus more damage potential), didn't have to spend gold on full-plate, and has summon monster spells, as well as standard spells.
I understand that, and I am not trying to tell you that you dont need to change the class. I just want to understand where 'enough' is supposed to be. I think comparing the summoner to a fighter in terms of power is a pretty poor choice. The fighter, rogue, and monk are the least common denominator when it comes to power in the game, and using them as your measuring stick in a game with clerics, druids and wizards is going to create an over nerf.
Barbarian is a descent choice in some ways, but a poor one for comparing AC considering barbiarns have intentionally low ACs and instead of DR and a d12 hit die with no abilities (except certain archetypes) that increase armor class.
If you want to guage AC, fighter is a good choice for pure numbers, so is I think the paladin. But the most accurate model is a druids animal companion wearing barding.
The synthesist in this example also has DR, Note that I consider the stacking of armor and natural armor broken when it comes to creatures as well. The high natural armor was really meant to replace armor for this creatures. Thus, I don't allow barding and natural armor to stack either (avoiding the horrible TPK provided by the dragon with barding).
Without getting too side tracked, I'm interested in feedback that assumes that this level of nerfing is desirable. More the question is how to best nerf it to this level, if nerfing to this extent is needed.
I know that with the nerfing so far, I would happily play a synthesist myself. It would be a toss up, between this synthesist and another class.. with perhaps even now a slight leaning towards the synthesist.
To be able to stick it out in melee, and yet still have the option to cast spells and summon critters.. booyah.