Rimeskull with Teleporation and Other Possible Exploits


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


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This possible loophole/exploit came up over at BGG:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1162831/rimeskull-in-one-turn

The short of it is that the cards limit where you can move and when you can explore. (Cannot overrides Can, as per the Golden Rule.)

Teleportation says you can ignore that movement limitation. (It specifically says the Golden Rule doesn't count for this.)

Something not mentioned in the thread there is that there are also cards and effects that allow characters to encounter cards without exploring.

The rules as written thus allow for people to use these exploits to relatively quickly win the scenario outright without actually dealing with much of the scenario.

Is that as intended?


Spotted that one as well.
I would assume not if for no other reason you would miss out on the whole senario apart from the end reward if you did that. And where is the fun in that.

The rules type answer would be that senario and location cards overrule the spell cards and similar according to the The Golden Rule on page 2 of the rules.

Which brings up another issue as that means the part on the teleport spell where it says it ignores movment restrictions will always be over ruled by the restriction on the location card according to the Golden rule.

But I am sure that is not what is intended.


I know most people playing the game won't play to exploit the system.

Sadly, though, I know many groups have 'those people' that will intentionally do everything in their power to break the system just because they can, and the group "Rules Lawyer" won't be able to stop them if the rules agree with what they're doing.

I also know Paizo is currently working on organized play, which will introduce many people to the "Way of the Munchkin."

So ironing out as many of these types of things as possible will help out in the long run.


The people I would be most concerned about would actually be people that would think of it not as an exploit, but as a "secret combination". They might have all the good intentions in the world, but believing that the happy occurrence of having an Arcance character with Teleoport, Scrying, Augury, and the Revelation Quill while also having a Divine character with Detect Evil is a "secret combo" allowing them to circumvent the rule. After all, what does it say about you and your attitude if you realize it is an exploit and you do it anyway?

I'm not sure how many of those people there are, but you also have to ask yourself, "If people are enjoying it, how much does fixing something like this matter?" So, lets think of the 3 kinds of people that will deal with this:

1. People like you (Firedale) and me, who will think the intention is clear enough that you shouldn't be able to move to or encounter cards at the central location even though a spell like Teleport exists. This group of people can happily play the game.
2. People that will think its a "secret combo" and if they have Teleport and some other spells will move the central location and could encounter the villain. These people can happily play the game.
3. People that have the same knowledge as group 1, but will think that because the loophole exists, they should exploit it. I'm going to assume that they people will be happy with exploiting the loophole, so they must be enjoying the game.

So, the real problem will be if people from one of the 3 groups play together. Really, only if type 2 or 3 ever play with type 1. If type 2 ever plays with type 1, type 1 will probably convince them. If type 1 plays with type 3, there might be a disagreement. But hopefully they are friends and can come to an understanding. They could come check the forum or just decide that a card game isn't worth their friendship.

Don't get me wrong, it would be nice if it was perfectly clear, but I think for most people, they can happily play the game as is.


As I posted over on BGG, the easiest solution would just make both of those locations start with "Once you close all other locations, build this location with the Villain" or simply "Once you close all other locations, your party faces the villain on the next exploration". I think I like that latter one better as that lets the party get ready since you'll probably have plenty of time left. Both make it clear that that location doesn't exist until all other locations are closed.

Some of us know that they've already fixed that somewhat in S&S, but I definitely think it needs to be tweaked for the reasons Hawk said. Though why people use Teleport (or other movement spells/items) continues to baffle me. You might get it during the scenario though, and I could see a light bulb go off.

Scarab Sages

Who would do this? The scenario really isn't all that difficult and / or long as it stands. But hey, if it floats their boat...why not?

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

Sihedron Circle wrote:
Characters may not move to or explore the Sihedron Circle until all Stone Head locations are closed.

So you can use Teleport to get there, but you can't explore.

If you use Detect Evil, you can't encounter Arkrhyst.
If you use Detect Magic, you can't encounter Arkrhyst.

The problem is what now?

Sovereign Court

Mike Selinker wrote:
Sihedron Circle wrote:
Characters may not move to or explore the Sihedron Circle until all Stone Head locations are closed.

So you can use Teleport to get there, but you can't explore.

If you use Detect Evil, you can't encounter Arkrhyst.
If you use Detect Magic, you can't encounter Arkrhyst.

The problem is what now?

I find it humorous that someone mentioned the no explore rule in the BGG thread and people just ignored it and continued discussing the "exploit".


Mike Selinker wrote:
Sihedron Circle wrote:
Characters may not move to or explore the Sihedron Circle until all Stone Head locations are closed.

So you can use Teleport to get there, but you can't explore.

If you use Detect Evil, you can't encounter Arkrhyst.
If you use Detect Magic, you can't encounter Arkrhyst.

The problem is what now?

Shalelu Andosana would let you encounter Arkhyst, assuming you did other things to get to him if he was buried in the deck. But I still don't think it really needs changing. There isn't a problem. Its an extreme "edge case" that would take a perfect combination of cards to make work. And it clearly isn't the intent of scenario. Doesn't this just fall into the social contract area?

Sovereign Court

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Mike Selinker wrote:
Sihedron Circle wrote:
Characters may not move to or explore the Sihedron Circle until all Stone Head locations are closed.

So you can use Teleport to get there, but you can't explore.

If you use Detect Evil, you can't encounter Arkrhyst.
If you use Detect Magic, you can't encounter Arkrhyst.

The problem is what now?

Shalelu Andosana would let you encounter Arkhyst, assuming you did other things to get to him if he was buried in the deck. But I still don't think it really needs changing. There isn't a problem. Its an extreme "edge case" that would take a perfect combination of cards to make work. And it clearly isn't the intent of scenario. Doesn't this just fall into the social contract area?

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gk#v5748eaic9rtc

Normally I'd say it'd fall under social contract, but the above getting a FAQ entry tells me officially it may be otherwise.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

Ah, I see. Yeah, probably not bothering to errata that. Not very doable, not really worth it.


Clarification, then: "Put Arkhyst alone at the Sihedron Circle location"

Does this mean he's the only card there or is it just clarification that you don't also put Stone Heads there with him but he's part of a deck built using the location?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
greek2me wrote:

Clarification, then: "Put Arkhyst alone at the Sihedron Circle location"

Does this mean he's the only card there or is it just clarification that you don't also put Stone Heads there with him but he's part of a deck built using the location?

He is the only card at the location.

After you open the way to Runeforge you have to fight Arkhyst to gain entry. (i.e. win the scenario)


OK, cool. Just saw some folks talking about digging through the deck for him and wondered if I'd made a mistake.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Well, there are ways for cards to get shuffled into random location decks. I don't recall if any of them are possible in this scenario, but that could result in other cards joining Arkhyst.


I don't think there are. I mentioned Augury and Scrying and the Revelation Quill but that was mostly because I was just thinking about the idea of moving to a location that should be prohibited, finding a card you shouldn't be able to find, and then encountering it without needing to explore.

As a side note: It has also been mentioned that the Runeforge Hub for Into the Runeforge also seems open to this tactic. It doesn't prohibit exploring and locations can be temporarily closed.

If either of these were to be get an errata, it seems just stating that you may not encounter cards at those locations until the others are closed would cover it.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

I don't have time to deal with this fully right now—we're getting S&S out this week—but I will tell you our intent, which will inform how we eventually deal with it.

Our current intent is that the Golden Rule's card hierarchy does not let any mere bane or boon allow you to move to a location that says you can't move there, or to override a scenario that tells you when or where you can or can't move.

The "movement restrictions" that cards like Teleport will therefore be able to bypass will probably be those placed by banes (usually barriers), such as Collapsed Ceiling.


Vic Wertz wrote:

I don't have time to deal with this fully right now—we're getting S&S out this week—but I will tell you our intent, which will inform how we eventually deal with it.

Our current intent is that the Golden Rule's card hierarchy does not let any mere bane or boon allow you to move to a location that says you can't move there, or to override a scenario that tells you when or where you can or can't move.

The "movement restrictions" that cards like Teleport will therefore be able to bypass will probably be those placed by banes (usually barriers), such as Collapsed Ceiling.

By this logic, Teleport wouldn't be able to get you out of a location like the Treacherous Cave. Is that really the intent?? If so, I believe that would do serious damage to the spell's usefulness. If not, my humble suggestion would simply be to add "this restriction may not be ignored" to any card who's restrictions you don't want trumped by a boon that says you can ignore restrictions. This would clearly fall under the GR's section about "can't" always trumping "can", regardless of hierarchy,


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:


Our current intent is that the Golden Rule's card hierarchy does not let any mere bane or boon allow you to move to a location that says you can't move there, or to override a scenario that tells you when or where you can or can't move.

The "movement restrictions" that cards like Teleport will therefore be able to bypass will probably be those placed by banes (usually barriers), such as Collapsed Ceiling.

It sounds like that solution might invalidate this blog post with the Harpy, the Treacherous Cave, and Teleport. Which I guess is okay, but I would think there are some locations that you should be able to Teleport to/from, and others that you shouldn't. Just something to consider as you decide to come up with a ruling or clarification.

Edit: Ninja'd!


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

As an aside, I'm very amused that the concept of Teleportation + Scrying can 'break' certain PACG scenarios. This is a well known known tactic in (or issue with, depending on whom you ask) the Pathfinder RPG and its predecessors, and has been for some time. The fact that the PACG shares this trait is a testament to how well the game models its source material, if you ask me. :)


S&S is headed to the printer this week? Fantastic!

Another option would be to make cards like teleport say you can ignore movement restrictions to leave a location. But don't worry about it now. Skull and Shackles is way more important than this.


I'm constantly amazed at hearing others' take on this game, whether that means finding a perfect combination of cards that sets off a rules question or that means a debate about what a word means on a card. What an awesome game!

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Found one - the Redcap monster shuffles into a random open location if he is undefeated. So it's possible for friends to join Mr. Dragon in the central location, but very unlikely.


ryric wrote:
Found one - the Redcap monster shuffles into a random open location if he is undefeated. So it's possible for friends to join Mr. Dragon in the central location, but very unlikely.

Giant Gecko does that too, though it is basic and so may have been removed by adventure 5.

Dark Archive

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
ryric wrote:
Found one - the Redcap monster shuffles into a random open location if he is undefeated. So it's possible for friends to join Mr. Dragon in the central location, but very unlikely.
Giant Gecko does that too, though it is basic and so may have been removed by adventure 5.

I don't know, we stil have a surprising number of basic cards (curse you recurring quarterstaff)


Hey, it is curse you longspear as I finally got it banished in one party in AP5/S5. That was the high point of that whole scenario.


kysmartman wrote:
Hey, it is curse you longspear as I finally got it banished in one party in AP5/S5. That was the high point of that whole scenario.

Am I missing something? Did the newer decks add more Longspears and Quarterstaves and I just didn't notice? Or are you all playing differently and somehow being forced to keep them when you encounter them as opposed to banishing?

Sovereign Court

Some people, like myself, probably didn't realize you could simply choose not to roll for a boon. I had already finished Adv4 when I found that out, and since then I've been taking out Basics and Elites left and right!!

Except for that darn Mace!!! That card never shows up in the decks, but shows up any time I do something that gives me a free weapon from the box!!

Dark Archive

For some reason the quarterstaff seems to come up in all the weapon-granting barriers, when you add it to your hand. You can't just choose to banish it then.

Ezren always has a hard choice when encountering crappy spells, acquire it anyway for the free search, or banish it away?


Ah, yes, the wonderful yet terrible 'add a ___ to your hand' events. I love those, and yep, that'd definitely make one dread those basic cards that you haven't been able to get rid of. I hadn't even thought of those, good point!


The longspear and shopkeeper's daughter both just keep taunting me by hiding out in their respective decks. I finally got rid of the temptress this time for only the 2nd out of 5 parties.

And yes, my last party had a bunch of those lousy Elite weapons and Items (managed to hit all 3 Battered Chests) end up in their hands instead of being able to banish them.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Added to FAQ.

(If you're wondering why we changed our stance on this after two and a half years, the answer is "Pathfinder Adventures.")


I just want to mention that the FAQ entry doesn't cover the Runeforge Hub, which has exactly the same problem.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Yup. Added to FAQ.

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