Batman (Pathfinder)


Conversions


I think there might've been an old thread about this, but I wanted to bring it up again.
Batman as a pathfinder character. Let me rephrase
A batman-inspired character, but essentially the dark knight.
I think it would be egregious to not have at least one level in monk since it reflects overall physical and mental conditioning, something that he definitely has, and as well as training in hand-to-hand martial arts, especially shurikens. After that, I'm open to ideas.

My batman-inspired character is named Edwin Locke and since there are so many versions of Batman, I decided to go with the Dark Knight Trilogy version simply because he was the most human of them all in my opinion and the easiest to build in a pathfinder build. That being said, here's the limitations, since this is for an ongoing campaign.

Level 8
Human (of course)
At least level 1 Monk
Only use Core Rulebook, Adv. Player's guide, Adv. Race guide, Ultimate Combat.
I strongly believe in at least 1 level in rogue, if not more, but I am definitely open to suggestions (DM is anti-ninjas and samurai, so none of those allowed).
Ability score list (what I rolled using dice pool system [24d6])

17, 17, 15, 16, 13, 14
(Before +2 human attribute bonus)

I would also love to hear opinions on feats. Assuming one level in monk, I would think maybe Weapon Focus (unarmed) if we stay thematic? Or possibly combat expertise, since that's supposed to reflect intelligent/ defensive fighting.
Now, as to the gadgets, since this is dark knight inspired Batman, I am taking a build-simple-ones approach and acquire the others. In fact, a bard in our group is taking ranks in alchemy and he can definitely make smokesticks, thunderstones, etc., so try to put the Batman-who-crafts-complex-gadgets from the comics to the back of your mind :P
So it mostly comes down to the combat and skills. Would also love to hear skill suggestions. Whole builds based on these guidelines I would be very, very interested in too.

To those who read this whole post, thanks for your time and can't wait to hear feedback!


Assuming you want this to be playable (i.e. none of the conventional wisdom that Batman has 20 levels in the Batman class...), something like Monk (Master of Many Styles) 1/Slayer X would be perfect.

If Slayer's not available, Trapper or Urban Ranger will do for the rest of the levels quite handily. Trapper if you really don't want spells, but you could potentially fluff many of the spells as his gadgets if you pick the right ones.

Take Dragon Style (to punch like a boss) and Snake Style (to punish your enemies). Dragon/Snake is perfect for a general purpose martial artist.

You will be wearing armor. Maybe take a second level of Monk and add the Monk of the Sacred Mountain archetype and snag a free Toughness, +1 natural armor, and a second bonus Feat down the line.

I don't see the point in taking any levels of Rogue. The Slayer gives you what you need and then some, as does the Trapper Ranger.

That's the simplest route, and probably the best. Maybe toss in some Fighter (Brawler) levels in there somewhere for a bit of extra oomph on the punches, but not really necessary.


I personally would go Brawler/Ninja or Monk (Martial Artist)/Ninja. You could make solid arguments for Brawler/Slayer and Brawler/Urban Ranger too, I think.


SteelDraco wrote:
I personally would go Brawler/Ninja or Monk (Martial Artist)/Ninja. You could make solid arguments for Brawler/Slayer and Brawler/Urban Ranger too, I think.

Problem being Ninja's out, and honestly doesn't really fit anyway.

Batman sneaks, but he's certainly not a Rogue.

I can see part Brawler but it runs into the same problem as me suggesting Slayer (probably not allowed).


Rynjin wrote:
SteelDraco wrote:
I personally would go Brawler/Ninja or Monk (Martial Artist)/Ninja. You could make solid arguments for Brawler/Slayer and Brawler/Urban Ranger too, I think.

Problem being Ninja's out, and honestly doesn't really fit anyway.

Batman sneaks, but he's certainly not a Rogue.

I can see part Brawler but it runs into the same problem as me suggesting Slayer (probably not allowed).

Brawler is allowed as it's in Ultimate Combat.

What would you then suggest for Feats and Ability Score placement?
Would you only get the first dragon style and snake style feat?


Brawler is not. Brawler the Fighter archetype is, but Paizo, for some extremely stupid reason, decided to name a whole class, with essentially the same flavor, the same thing.

The Fighter archetype wouldn't be the best fit for the majority of levels since Fighters get crap for skills, and Batman's all about the skills.

17, 17, 15, 16, 14, 13 is what you have listed, and that looks perfect for the order (swapped around Wis and Cha, but that's it).
You would only get the first Feats as BONUS Feats, yes, but Style Feats can be taken by anyone. MoMS is so you can use both simultaneously.

Full Feat allocation is hard to give you since, unlike Batman, you'll need to specialize to some degree to be effective. Do you want to be more focused on hand to hand? Stealthy takedowns? Something else?


Rynjin wrote:

Brawler is not. Brawler the Fighter archetype is, but Paizo, for some extremely stupid reason, decided to name a whole class, with essentially the same flavor, the same thing.

The Fighter archetype wouldn't be the best fit for the majority of levels since Fighters get crap for skills, and Batman's all about the skills.

17, 17, 15, 16, 14, 13 is what you have listed, and that looks perfect for the order (swapped around Wis and Cha, but that's it).
You would only get the first Feats as BONUS Feats, yes, but Style Feats can be taken by anyone. MoMS is so you can use both simultaneously.

Full Feat allocation is hard to give you since, unlike Batman, you'll need to specialize to some degree to be effective. Do you want to be more focused on hand to hand? Stealthy takedowns? Something else?

I picture him as more of a technical and controlled hand to hand combatant, with some secondary priority on stealth takedowns or intimidation. If not takedowns or intimidation, then someone who can handle a group of enemies well.


Hmmm, let's see.

I suggest, maybe, taking Focused Study instead of the Human Bonus Feat. It gives you a free Skill Focus at 1st, 8th, and 16th. Then you can pump that into Perception and Stealth (Intimidate and 16th?) and be pretty much handled on the stealth department.

Then the Dragon/Snake Feats as I said.

So, sample build...

Ranger (Trapper) 1.) Skill Focus: Perception, Power Attack
Monk (MoMS/Sacred Mountain) 2.) Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style
Ranger 3.) Snake Style, Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat Style)
Monk 5.) Toughness (Bonus), Dragon Ferocity, Snake Fang (MoMS Bonus)
Ranger 7.) Combat Reflexes
Ranger 8.) Skill Focus (Stealth), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Ranger 9.) Combat Style Master
Ranger 11.) ??? (Can really be anything you want. Cornugon Smash? Improved Grapple?)
Ranger 12.) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

Skills, you can keep 9 skills maxed without your Favored Class Bonus, so keep Acrobatics, Disable Device, Stealth, Perception, Kn. Local, Intimidate, Sense Motive, and Survival maxed. 1 more of your choice to have max ranks in, can be any number of things really. At an early level (1 and 2, probably), spend your FCB on skills to get Climb and Swim with one rank each. Shouldn't need them to be any higher.

Oh, and put the human +2 in Str.

You'll be a solid combatant, and a very skilled member of the team.

Favored Enemy you probably want to prioritize Human for the first one for flavor if nothing else, but tailor the rest to the campaign. Monstrous Humanoids is a good AND fitting pick for Batman (he fights a lot of animal people if nothing else...). Aberrations, Undead, and Evil Outsiders are good choices for the last one. Whichever seems to show up the most, make your best one.


Rynjin wrote:

Hmmm, let's see.

I suggest, maybe, taking Focused Study instead of the Human Bonus Feat. It gives you a free Skill Focus at 1st, 8th, and 16th. Then you can pump that into Perception and Stealth (Intimidate and 16th?) and be pretty much handled on the stealth department.

Then the Dragon/Snake Feats as I said.

So, sample build...

Ranger (Trapper) 1.) Skill Focus: Perception, Power Attack
Monk (MoMS/Sacred Mountain) 2.) Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style
Ranger 3.) Snake Style, Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat Style)
Monk 5.) Toughness (Bonus), Dragon Ferocity, Snake Fang (MoMS Bonus)
Ranger 7.) Combat Reflexes
Ranger 8.) Skill Focus (Stealth), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Ranger 9.) Combat Style Master
Ranger 11.) ??? (Can really be anything you want. Cornugon Smash? Improved Grapple?)
Ranger 12.) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

Skills, you can keep 9 skills maxed without your Favored Class Bonus, so keep Acrobatics, Disable Device, Stealth, Perception, Kn. Local, Intimidate, Sense Motive, and Survival maxed. 1 more of your choice to have max ranks in, can be any number of things really. At an early level (1 and 2, probably), spend your FCB on skills to get Climb and Swim with one rank each. Shouldn't need them to be any higher.

Oh, and put the human +2 in Str.

You'll be a solid combatant, and a very skilled member of the team.

Favored Enemy you probably want to prioritize Human for the first one for flavor if nothing else, but tailor the rest to the campaign. Monstrous Humanoids is a good AND fitting pick for Batman (he fights a lot of animal people if nothing else...). Aberrations, Undead, and Evil Outsiders are good choices for the last one. Whichever seems to show up the most, make your best one.

Where would you suggest putting the two ability points for level 8? And is combat style master really necessary since he has Fuse Styles?

And since I brought this up to my friends, we were all kind of talking about a mixture hero/villain omage kind of thing. My buddy is going to emulate green arrow, which is quite a bit simpler, but I had another question about a different conversion. I'm unsure of how familiar you are with Batman, but how would you do a Bane? Dark knight Rises, non-venom version. I sort of imagine a pure brawler (Fighter Archetype, not class since I don't know the class) with grapple and greater grapple, since he was a wrestler, and a huge emphasis on Str/Con.


Archaeologist or Detective Bard perhaps with unarmed strike and power attack. His about detection, planning, mad skillz and knowledge more than punching.


Combat Style Master lets you activate Styles as a Free action. Meaning you can have both of your styles up from round 1 instead of starting in round 2 (when the combat is likely half over and your defense or offense has been weaker for a round).

As for Bane, not sure. Probably a Barbarian.

Scarab Sages

I agree with Brawler (either version) for Bane. Thing is, he's supposed to be brilliant in addition to grotesquely strong. I was thinking of adding the Tactician Fighter Archetype, but there's the problem of not being entirely compatible with the Brawler. I suppose Urban Barbarian wouldn't be out of the question. How about a slight curveball: A Psychic Warrior (who has various ESP powers in addition to nasty in-combat powers)? I believe there are at least 2 versions of Pathfinderized psionics presently in print.

I must confess to being more interested in what as-yet-undreamt-of Alchemist Archetype you'll be making for the Scarecrow.

Rynjin wrote:

Full Feat allocation is hard to give you since, unlike Batman, you'll need to specialize to some degree to be effective. Do you want to be more focused on hand to hand? Stealthy takedowns? Something else?

For OP's benefit, I will point out that that's not necessarily true - the institution of character class lends specialization enough (the ability to do one or two things within that class's repertoire really really well will always carry a predictable price as well as reward, as will being more generalized).

While what I'm about to suggest carries the same issue as previous recommendations of Hunter or Brawler (I don't favor the former, but do think the latter is worth considering, for this), I would suggest levels in the Investigator class as a worthy fit for DC's own World's Greatest Detective - it has most of the properties of the Rogue class that fit the character and not the ones that don't, a character-appropriate fighting style, and alchemical proficiency (I know you originally said you weren't interested in that part, but scientific wizardry is at least part of most versions of Batman, and even in the case of The Dark Knight, his formative training is attributed to an order of ninja, and "mixing medicines" was part of the official tool kit of historical ninja). Another class that might be nice for the character is actually Samurai - if only you could do it right. You'd want a replacement for the Mount and Banner that was appropriate for such a character, and there presently are none. HOWEVER, you're obviously playing a home game, so you can try working with your DM to make a literal "Dark Knight" Archetype, perhaps one that received more skill points and further augmentations to its Challenge ability.

Even if you don't take this class, I'd put one of your 17s and/or a racial bonus in Intelligence, and perhaps that 15 in Charisma (and that's kind of shirking for adaptation's sake; in addition to Charisma being Bruce Wayne's motor, the Batman persona and urban legend is a non-trivial aspect of his "powers;" you are, admittedly, trying to emulate a character who's been known to be cited as an example of what rolling 6 straight 18s looks like). If you're going to be Human, consider the Dual Talent alternative. Given your base rolls, 8th-level ability increases, and that, about the most "Batman" array I can imagine is:

17 STR (17)
18 DEX (17+1)
15 CON (13+2)
18 INT (16+2)
14 WIS (14)
16 CHA (15+1)

Don't forget the Rich Parents trait!


So my DM has allowed the Brawler class, but no other class in that pdf. It's a long story, so just accept that for what it is x.x
How would you integrate that into a Batman build, if at all? Or is Slayer and the other build still pretty ideal?
same for Bane, would he just be full brawler you think? I think so, now that I've seen what the class is like.


Honestly, I think Slayer (or Trapper Ranger, since he wouldn't allow any other ACG class besides Brawler) is your better bet still.

Brawler did not impress me in the slightest when they revealed it. It gets very little that's interesting or fun until higher levels (when you can use Martial Maneuvers to get Feat chains, and more than once per day, and get Awesome Blow).

Silver Crusade

Man you guys are way off base. Batman is an alchemist, no doubt.

First off we have an intelligence focus which is the B. Man all over, second of all we've got skill with any thrown weapon (Throw anything for your Batarang needs), as well as a class that's well versed as a detective (knowledges are pretty nice), making a Mind Chemist most his style of play, especially since boosting his mental stats is way more in line with The Bat's style.

I'll admit some of the extracts aren't fitting flavor perfectly, but again, it's a Batman, he's got a solution for everything. He's also got the skill in chemicals that he needs to find people (possibly an investigator would work better, but for classes that are out, he's an Alchemist), and pretty skilled at fighting (just give him IUS and he's golden), and you've got a solid Bat. I could probably do a level by level design if anyone wanted up to 10th level.


N. Jolly wrote:

Man you guys are way off base. Batman is an alchemist, no doubt.

First off we have an intelligence focus which is the B. Man all over, second of all we've got skill with any thrown weapon (Throw anything for your Batarang needs), as well as a class that's well versed as a detective (knowledges are pretty nice), making a Mind Chemist most his style of play, especially since boosting his mental stats is way more in line with The Bat's style.

I'll admit some of the extracts aren't fitting flavor perfectly, but again, it's a Batman, he's got a solution for everything. He's also got the skill in chemicals that he needs to find people (possibly an investigator would work better, but for classes that are out, he's an Alchemist), and pretty skilled at fighting (just give him IUS and he's golden), and you've got a solid Bat. I could probably do a level by level design if anyone wanted up to 10th level.

I'm open to any ideas or options, so sure.

Liberty's Edge

I'd also strongly support Batman as an Investigator with maybe a level of Monk or Brawler thrown in. Urban Ranger or Slayer is also valid...though Trapper Archetype seems wrong. Alchemist isn't bad...but probably has the wrong feel with bombs and mutagen.

Bane, on the other hand, has at least one Alchemist level, he's drug-powered after all. I'd make him as a Barbarian (Brutal Pugilist) 5/Alchemist (Vivisectionist) X with a grapple focus and unreasonable Strength score plus very high Int.


Rynjin wrote:

Honestly, I think Slayer (or Trapper Ranger, since he wouldn't allow any other ACG class besides Brawler) is your better bet still.

Brawler did not impress me in the slightest when they revealed it. It gets very little that's interesting or fun until higher levels (when you can use Martial Maneuvers to get Feat chains, and more than once per day, and get Awesome Blow).

what would the slayer build look like then?

Deadmanwalking:
If you really wanted to maximize the brute kind of Bane, then I'd definitely agree with a Barbarian/Alch mix but Brawler seems really perfect for him for his main dedicated class, especially with maneuver training (Grapple) and unarmed damage.

Maybe something like Brawler 6/Alchemist 1/Barbarian 1.
Using the aforementioned scores, adding the +2 att bonus to Str and both ability points, you could have a 30 STR before magic items if you combine a mutagen with raging combined with an insane grapple and unarmed damage.

Liberty's Edge

Drizheim wrote:

Deadmanwalking:

If you really wanted to maximize the brute kind of Bane, then I'd definitely agree with a Barbarian/Alch mix but Brawler seems really perfect for him for his main dedicated class, especially with maneuver training (Grapple) and unarmed damage.

There's a Rage Power that gives 1d6 unarmed combat damage...Brawler's not a bad idea per se, though.

Drizheim wrote:

Maybe something like Brawler 6/Alchemist 1/Barbarian 1.

Using the aforementioned scores, adding the +2 att bonus to Str and both ability points, you could have a 30 STR before magic items if you combine a mutagen with raging combined with an insane grapple and unarmed damage.

Oh, yeah...that works. I'm just saying how I'd go about it...and Brawler doesn't seem necessary. As mentioned, he can get Improved Grapple and subsequent Feats relatively easily either way, and a single Rage Power gives him 1d6 unarmed strike damage, which seems like enough, honestly. Toss on a Belt of Anaconda's Coils and you're seriously good to go.


Drizheim wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

Honestly, I think Slayer (or Trapper Ranger, since he wouldn't allow any other ACG class besides Brawler) is your better bet still.

Brawler did not impress me in the slightest when they revealed it. It gets very little that's interesting or fun until higher levels (when you can use Martial Maneuvers to get Feat chains, and more than once per day, and get Awesome Blow).

what would the slayer build look like then?

Exactly the same as the Ranger one but you'd also get Sneak Attack and be able to designate a specific person to f$$+ up as a Swift action instead of hoping you fight your Favored Enemy.


I say Inquisitor 6 / Shadowdancer 2. Not perfect but pretty good. Detective skills, Intimidation, Decent fighting skills, lots of "Gadgets," stealth and defense.

Sovereign Court

Batman is like Elminster from 3E. A couple levels here couple levels there. I see him a couple of levels of Brawler (or Monk as the Op's requirement), inquisitor. But mostly? Bard (Detective).


Rynjin wrote:
Drizheim wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

Honestly, I think Slayer (or Trapper Ranger, since he wouldn't allow any other ACG class besides Brawler) is your better bet still.

Brawler did not impress me in the slightest when they revealed it. It gets very little that's interesting or fun until higher levels (when you can use Martial Maneuvers to get Feat chains, and more than once per day, and get Awesome Blow).

what would the slayer build look like then?

Exactly the same as the Ranger one but you'd also get Sneak Attack and be able to designate a specific person to f#!# up as a Swift action instead of hoping you fight your Favored Enemy.

What would you pick for Slayer talents? Assuming the build you made earlier.


What about Investigator?


Bardess wrote:
What about Investigator?

I only recently read through that class and I'd be interested in hearing opinions on a mostly or full investigator build. I think there's a strong argument for it, more so if you consider Batman when he teams up with other heroes - usually compared against superman and others with super strength/abilities, Batman is the problem-solver, the know-it-all, the detective, and the plan maker. Even though the original post stated I was mostly interested in a Dark Knight Trilogy interpretation of Batman (largely combat oriented), as I said, I would definitely be interested in feed back on an investigator build.

Also, to the earlier posts about the Advanced Class Guide, my DM wouldn't allow it at first because he prefers to thoroughly read everything before he green lights it and he's fine with using the whole book now. I only told him about it, rather than showing it to him, at first.

Liberty's Edge

Bardess wrote:
What about Investigator?

That's what I'd probably use, assuming its combat prowess is raised appropriately in the final version.


Current incarnation of Investigator is actually broken (as in, parts of it are effectively unusable). I'd wait until the actual ACG book comes out in August to do anything involving the Investigator, at which point it will likely be fantastic, but probably not for what you want (Combat oriented Batman).

As for what Slayer Talents to pick? Combat Style, for one, to fill in those Feats I got from Ranger. That's 3 eaten up there for TWFing Feats.

But that's just 2, 6, and 10, so at 4 and 8 I might suggest getting either Trapfinding or Combat Trick (whatever Feat you think you need) and Favored Terrain: Urban. I can't look at my PDF right now or I'd look through the Rogue Talents, but IIRC none of the non-Advanced ones are even really worth glancing at besides Trapfinding and Trap Spotter (though I hate this Talent with a fiery burning passion since it's one of those Talents that doesn't make the Rogue better, rather makes everybody else' time more tedious. I would love to be able to just say "I scan the room" rather than "I scan the room and also I want to make very clear I AM searching for traps okay jesus christ why do my eyes stop working on traps when I don't say that").


http://johnaslarona.tumblr.com/post/9986469513/thedarkknight

I'm just going to leave this here.


Batman is simple

LG Male Human Investigator 2/Inquisitor 5/Unarmed Fighter 7/Sleepless Detective 6

Yes a lot of cross-classing (and one prestige class) but in the end it fits Batman easily. This is before ACG comes into play of course.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OTSEdwHTi9khZZ97GFIQByvZF34lADGAZdb MQweK4Vw/edit#gid=1867984558&vpid=A1

I thought about this myself. Figuring Batman would be into hand to hand combat and focus on being stealthy and takedowns and combat maneuvers.


I did a build for the Dark Knight, as well as for many of the other vigilantes in the bat family on my character conversions page on my blog. At the time the ninja was the most accurate, I felt, class for Batman. Having glanced over the Investigator, and listened to the reports on the Vigilante, my opinion has not changed in that regard.

Scarab Sages

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Slayer makes the best Batman in the game post ACG. Studied Target, the choice of either Irori combat style or Two-Weapon Fighting with Ascetic Style, using stealth and enforcer to get sneak attacks and Sap Adept to deal double damage on them and knock foes out cold.

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