Savage Dirty Trick Vs. Dirty Trick Master

[Tarma]

Ok, it's a question that's got to be asked:

Why is the savage dirty trick legal for PFS while dirty trick master isn't? Dirty trick master has the requirement of two other feats and a BAB of 11, so there is the cost of it being a high level feat along with two other feats before being able to take the feat.

Savage dirty trick can be taken at level 6 with no requirements and has basically the same effects for a shorter duration. On top of that, savage dirty trick essentially gives Barbarians access to multiple Improved feats, since the combat maneuver doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. Not only does it give a free feat, but if the attack is successful the enemy takes damage equal to the barbarian's strength mod.

While there is a save before the effects take place, the DC is strength based and since the barbarian is raging the DC will be higher.

I appreciate any assistance or insight that can be provided!

[BigNorseWolf]

Late night quicki comparison:

Pinned is a lot worse than entangled.

Frightened is effectively out of the combat

There is a fort save and a cmd check against savage dirty trick, meaning many opponents are immune and its far less likely to work than just the combat manuver

[Tarma]

Well, there is still a CMD check for Dirty Trick Master as well.

I'm not sure what you mean by many opponents being immune to the tricks by a fort save, since it appears to be an untyped fort save. Many opponents may be immune to the effect you are trying to use with the combat maneuver, but that would apply to DTM as well.

[BigNorseWolf]

Tarma wrote:

Well, there is still a CMD check for Dirty Trick Master as well.

CMD only > CMD AND a fort save.

Quote:

I'm not sure what you mean by many opponents being immune to the tricks by a fort save, since it appears to be an untyped fort save.

The type doesn't matter.

Undead for example: Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).

Quote:

Many opponents may be immune to the effect you are trying to use with the combat maneuver, but that would apply to DTM as well.

For a dirty trick to blind for example, you could give the lich an atomic wedgie as a combat maneuver. The barbarians punching out his retinas doesn't work though.

[Tarma]

Gotcha, blanked out for a minute there and wasn't considering the undead traits in your statement.

Judging by the way the power is worded, it appears that if the CMB check is successful, the initial penalty from the check still applies. For example, the Lich would still be blinded, just not staggered since the Fort save is related to the additional penalty.

Even with the fort save included, Savage dirty trick is very similar in power to a level 11 feat that's banned along with some similar items that have been banned for giving several feats at once, like the Bracers of Falcon's Aim.