I don't think it's a problem with them being that ineffective so much as they just don't match up too amazingly with the rest of the classes everyone loves. Ranger, barbarian, blah blah blah. Also the rogue and the fighter suffer from the same thing in a different way. Lot's of skills outside of combat is nice but the rogue is far from awesome in combat. Fighter is the other way around.
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Gwaithador, you just look at other classes, and you're like, "What the hell? Isn't there a thing called, "Game Balance" when making classes?"
Take what you imagine about a rogue, and when you look at other classes, you find that others can do what the rogue can do, but better. The same goes for the Fighter in most aspects. THE GUY IS NAMED FIGHTER, AND HE ISN'T THE BEST AS WHAT HE DOES!?
I honestly, genuinely don't understand why people think fighters and rogues are ineffective. Seriously, could somebody point me to a thread that explains it in actual detail?
Well, there is a search function, and there are a lot of reasons, but in a nutshell they're outshine by other classes because the options they have are a little underwhelming so other classes, in particular those with access to magic, do their job and more. This is a thread about why fighter is awesome though, so probably best to create another thread for an answer to that.
As a side note, I actually do like awesome martial guys who can stand up in a world full of dragons and wizards and evil gods. Because kicking butt with a greatsword is pretty awesome.
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People have no idea how I am obsessed with the fighter. If you meet me, and you say you like the fighter, then there is no escape for you, because I will use standstill on you, and you can never leave until I am done talking.
Stand still, pind down and step up and strike, you seems like well trained figter.
I honestly, genuinely don't understand why people think fighters and rogues are ineffective. Seriously, could somebody point me to a thread that explains it in actual detail?
Well, there are just like... 2.6 bazillion threads like that, so take your pick. :)
I honestly, genuinely don't understand why people think fighters and rogues are ineffective. Seriously, could somebody point me to a thread that explains it in actual detail?
Rogues: Because other calss can do all the roguish thing and are better at combat.
Fighter: Because (almost)everyother classes can fight at least as good as thte fighter and those classes just contribute more out of combat. it certainly do not help that all the other FULL BAB have recived tons of powercreep while the fighter basically do not.
People have no idea how I am obsessed with the fighter. If you meet me, and you say you like the fighter, then there is no escape for you, because I will use standstill on you, and you can never leave until I am done talking.Stand still, pind down and step up and strike, you seems like well trained figter.
The good news is that talking is a free action, so no matter how much he speaks, it'll all be over in 6 seconds. ;).
A fighter can even choose to be a lunky musclehead with an obscene strength and no social skills, but that's a player choice.No, that's because Fighters are pidgeonholed into it. If you wanted to play a character who could fight AND have social skills, you'd just pick a different class.
That's what traits are for. Affable and World Traveler together grant Diplomacy, Knowledge (local), and Sense Motive as class skills, which is pretty "social" if you ask me. Just make sure not to dump Int (for the skill ranks) or Charisma (doesn't have to be high, even a 10 will due, since you can afford picking up some skill-related feats like Skill Focus and/or Persuasive).
Even though I agree with everyone who knows Fighters are an NPC class, is it really necessary to come in here #and rain on their parade?
It's like hearing that "x religion that you don't follow" is having a party and deciding to crash it and ruin it. Not cool. Let them have their fun.
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Well nobody learns that way...
Fighter is an NPC class? Yea, because if it ain't a wizard, it's not worth playin', amirite? Facepalm.
Fighter is an NPC class? Yea, because if it ain't a wizard, it's not worth playin', amirite? Facepalm.
Erm, I don't think anyone said that thing about the wizard. Probably best to settle down.
"well that escalated quickly" -internet
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I honestly, genuinely don't understand why people think fighters and rogues are ineffective. Seriously, could somebody point me to a thread that explains it in actual detail?
It mainly has to do with the Fighter doesn't get features that help him adapt to actual combat scenarios. All the Fighter really gets is numerical bonuses. It doesn't help him deal with magic, close distance with intelligent enemies or allow him to shrug off the numerous deadly effects that will keep him from doing his job. He doesn't get many features that allow him to do something new just things that let him do what everyone can do a little better.
Ultimately you end up with a class who can put out a few more points of damage a round and you sacrifice a huge deal of versatility. Rangers for example have so much more they can do out of combat and get a free flanking buddy that gets their favored enemy bonus. Barbarians can break spells, break face, and break traps while STILL getting more skill points than the Fighter while also having even defenses from Invulnerable Rager or Armored Hulk. Unless we're talking spells, etc because Superstitious just blows Fighter saves out of the water.
Rogues mechanically are weak in combat. They have the lowest possible to-hit and have an easily mitigated damage source. Outside of combat they have lots of skills. Unfortunately their class features don't synergize well with those skills or make them worth anymore than the baseline. A Rogue sneaks no better than anyone else with Stealth as a class skill. Many Rogue Talents are deceptive(PUN), deceptive how you ask? Read this carefully then check out the rules on Sleight of Hand and the Surprise Round. You will never be able to use Underhanded.
We also have gems like Rumormonger which put mechanics to things most DMs would have just let you done. So now we have Rogues who can't start rumors unless he has this talent.
Recent favorite of mine. "You can use Diplomacy instead of intimidate to change the attitude of the target!" Or you could just bloody use Diplomacy ya dingus!
This ones easy to hate too. Before this existed most people assumed it just worked like this. Targets who are lied to believe it is true. That makes sense! Using your bluff check to convince someone they talk to makes sense because they're not lying.
The list of terribad Rogue talents go on but really these just salt the wound.
The worse part is that skills are eventually circumvented by spells. Those twenty ranks of climb? Spider Climb or Fly. Stealth? Invisibility. Oh see invisibility is common at high levels? So is Mindblank. Sense Motive? Zone o' Truth. Many skills are often not used more than a single time in an "encounter" so most of the time a spell is enough to suffice for the situation.
/rant
Fighter is an NPC class? Yea, because if it ain't a wizard, it's not worth playin', amirite? Facepalm.Erm, I don't think anyone said that thing about the wizard. Probably best to settle down.
"well that escalated quickly" -internet
Settle down?
Funny thing is whenever I played any module or adventure path all my Fighter did was outdamage everyone and kick the butt of everything around it. Now granted we only play with the CORE book and not the APG, UM or UC, and our party wizard and cleric really tried to cast spells to benefit the team also. We weren't trying to PVP each other or anything.
Now granted we only play with the CORE book and not the APG, UM or UC, and our party wizard and cleric really tried to cast spells to benefit the team also.
That would be why. It's funny because all the books you mention are the Core line.
Now granted we only play with the CORE book and not the APG, UM or UC, and our party wizard and cleric really tried to cast spells to benefit the team also.That would be why. It's funny because all the books you mention are the Core line.
I guess I just played too many editions where the main players handbook was the core.
But if people are telling me they can't play a fun Fighter that kicks butt and does amazing things in the modules, AP's, or pathfinder society encounters than they don't know how to play the game. And if they tell me there fighter is always being destroyed by failing will saves and they have a cleric or wizard in the party than they don't know how to acts as a team and play synergetically.
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And if they tell me there fighter is always being destroyed by failing will saves and they have a cleric or wizard in the party than they don't know how to acts as a team and play synergetically.
Your class with a weak will save not making the will save is the cleric or wizards fault?
So... who loves it when that combat maneuver becomes completely useless at high levels?
Hey, those flying creatures, and being immune to being tripped.... amirite?
Want to hear a joke? Bravery.
Want to hear another joke? Weapon Training.
And if they tell me there fighter is always being destroyed by failing will saves and they have a cleric or wizard in the party than they don't know how to acts as a team and play synergetically.Your class with a weak will save not making the will save is the cleric or wizards fault?
Never said it was their fault. It just hasn't been a problem. The Clerics and wizards just always prepared for those things.
And here comes the hate.
"Just because I'm a cleric doesn't mean I am that kind of cleric! I don't need to make sure I have things to heal and fix you! Now go out in front and make sure I don't get killed, and then later you can fix yourself on your own!"
I can continue...
And here comes the hate.
Yep, nothing draws out the smarmy douchebags more than a thread saying positive things about martial characters. Because even Paizo hates martial characters, amirite?
You people should have saw my face when I saw the gunslinger getting full bab, another good save and more skill points than the fighter. That was a fun day.
And here comes the hate.
I prefer to think of it as sad.
So what about those awesome moments for fighters anyway?
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Want to hear another joke? Weapon Training.
Weapon training is the only thing the fighter has going for it that allows it to Hit BBEGs. It's boing math, but it is the only thing that allows Fighters to be able to say "A least we can do a decent job of fighting if we can full attack, even if we have no way to reliably make a full attack, have crappy saves, and no skill points worth mentioning."
Funny thing is whenever I played any module or adventure path all my Fighter did was outdamage everyone and kick the butt of everything around it. Now granted we only play with the CORE book and not the APG, UM or UC, and our party wizard and cleric really tried to cast spells to benefit the team also. We weren't trying to PVP each other or anything.
That explain a lot. For example BArbarian are at the fighter level in just the core rulebook. Afther the APG the balance change drastically.
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Weapon training is the only thing the fighter has going for it that allows it to Hit BBEGs. It's boing math, but it is the only thing that allows Fighters to be able to say "A least we can do a decent job of fighting if we can full attack, even if we have no way to reliably make a full attack, have crappy saves, and no skill points worth mentioning."
Want to hear another joke? Weapon Training.
Weapon training isn't the joke. The joke is weapon training being treated as five separate class features.
And here comes the hate.I prefer to think of it as sad.
So what about those awesome moments for fighters anyway?
I failed my will save to a bard, and then my party who always disrespected me and fighters was on their own. In a few rounds they were almost on the verge of a TPK, while my character was made to laugh uncontrollably on the ground, which I might have done anyways. Finally, the bbeg was the last man standing, and was about to deliver the final blow to the only remaining PC in the party that wasn't below 0, or laughing like a madman, and the GM said, "you're up, and able to take your turn as normal". I stood up and said "Look whose laughing now" and crit natural 20 with my longbow to 1 hit the BBEG.
No one healed me, and no one thanked me... but the fighter thanked me for choosing him as my one and only mistress.
Weapon training is a joke when someone argues with me that the fighter is a balanced class, and they point to weapon training and go, "YOU SEE THIS! FIGHTERS GET THIS!" and then my head explodes.
EDIT:
It's the only thing really going for it, and most archetypes can't even use the Duel Gloves with their altered version of it. WHY WOULD GOD LET THIS HAPPEN!?
That's not to say I'm not sad to see it go when it get's replaced...
Many Rogue Talents are deceptive(PUN), deceptive how you ask? Read this carefully then check out the rules on Sleight of Hand and the Surprise Round. You will never be able to use Underhanded.
Yea, it doesn't really work unless you've got the Deft Palm rogue talent or a spring-loaded wright sheathe.
YOU'RE BOTH JEALOUS BECAUSE I BEAT GHOULS N' GHOSTS!Lies! That game is impossible.
I tried to play that game a few weeks ago thinking I could do better than I did as a kid. I still did not get past level one.
Many Rogue Talents are deceptive(PUN), deceptive how you ask? Read this carefully then check out the rules on Sleight of Hand and the Surprise Round. You will never be able to use Underhanded.Yea, it doesn't really work unless 1.) you've got the Deft Palm rogue talent or 2.) a spring-loaded wright sheathe.
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
You cannot take a Swift action in the Surprise round.
Fighter is an NPC class? Yea, because if it ain't a wizard, it's not worth playin', amirite? Facepalm.
Yup, you got it. Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, Inquisitors, Alchemists, Druids, Clerics, Magi, Oracles, etc. are all definitely Wizards. You 100% nailed the issue here. You definitely did not find the tree, while failing to find the forest.
(Above is sarcasm.)
And here comes the hate.I prefer to think of it as sad.
So what about those awesome moments for fighters anyway?
I failed my will save to a bard, and then my party who always disrespected me and fighters was on their own. In a few rounds they were almost on the verge of a TPK, while my character was made to laugh uncontrollably on the ground, which I might have done anyways. Finally, the bbeg was the last man standing, and was about to deliver the final blow to the only remaining PC in the party that wasn't below 0, or laughing like a madman, and the GM said, "you're up, and able to take your turn as normal". I stood up and said "Look whose laughing now" and crit natural 20 with my longbow to 1 hit the BBEG.
No one healed me, and no one thanked me... but the fighter thanked me for choosing him as my one and only mistress.
Yeah I have to admit I have had much fun with the people I been playing with for the past 20+ years. I just don't understand and have never played with players with your mindset. Not intended as an insult as long as your group of players are have fun together, just saying your playstyle in nothing I have experienced.
I tried to play that game a few weeks ago thinking I could do better than I did as a kid. I still did not get past level one.YOU'RE BOTH JEALOUS BECAUSE I BEAT GHOULS N' GHOSTS!Lies! That game is impossible.
Did you throw lots of pain, misery and frustration (made from sizable parts of your childhood) at it? That's how I did it. Heh.
Many Rogue Talents are deceptive(PUN), deceptive how you ask? Read this carefully then check out the rules on Sleight of Hand and the Surprise Round. You will never be able to use Underhanded.Yea, it doesn't really work unless 1.) you've got the Deft Palm rogue talent or 2.) a spring-loaded wright sheathe.If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.You cannot take a Swift action in the Surprise round.
You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.
I think you overlooked something there...
Many Rogue Talents are deceptive(PUN), deceptive how you ask? Read this carefully then check out the rules on Sleight of Hand and the Surprise Round. You will never be able to use Underhanded.Yea, it doesn't really work unless 1.) you've got the Deft Palm rogue talent or 2.) a spring-loaded wright sheathe.If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.You cannot take a Swift action in the Surprise round.You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.I think you overlooked something there...
Oh snap!
Wait... anytime you would be able to take a (unspecified) free action?
Talking is a free action, and it can be done outside of your turn! Therefore, I can use swift actions during other characters' turns! QUICKENED SPELLS AT ALL TIMES!!! BWAHAHAHAH- *gets sucker punched by GM*
Whirlwind Attack with a reach weapon by 4th level is pretty awesome, and Fighters are the only ones who can do it.
Many Rogue Talents are deceptive(PUN), deceptive how you ask? Read this carefully then check out the rules on Sleight of Hand and the Surprise Round. You will never be able to use Underhanded.Yea, it doesn't really work unless 1.) you've got the Deft Palm rogue talent or 2.) a spring-loaded wright sheathe.If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.You cannot take a Swift action in the Surprise round.You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.I think you overlooked something there...
Neat.
Wait... anytime you would be able to take a (unspecified) free action?
Talking is a free action, and it can be done outside of your turn! Therefore, I can use swift actions during other characters' turns! QUICKENED SPELLS AT ALL TIMES!!! BWAHAHAHAH- *gets sucker punched by GM*
Fixed, and wouldn't work since Speaking supersedes the normal rule of taking Free Actions outside your turn; which you can't. Nice try though.
Of course, if it did work, it's yet another reason why Casters rule and Fighters drool.
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Wait... anytime you would be able to take a (unspecified) free action?
Talking is a free action, and it can be done outside of your turn! Therefore, I can use swift actions during other characters' turns! QUICKENED SPELLS AT ALL TIMES!!! BWAHAHAHAH- *gets sucker punched by GM*
Fixed, and wouldn't work since Speaking supersedes the normal rule of taking Free Actions outside your turn; which you can't. Nice try though.
Of course, if it did work, it's yet another reason why Casters rule and Fighters drool.
Speaking is normal! You're normally able to speak.
The trick wouldn't work underwater, or for creatures who can't speak for one reason or another (maybe they are mute, maybe they are under effect of Silence).
Still, it wouldn't work because the GM would throw books at you.
STOP HAVING FUN GUYS
FIGHTERS ARE BAD
LET US /EDUCATE/ YOU
Fighter is an NPC class? Yea, because if it ain't a wizard, it's not worth playin', amirite? Facepalm.Yup, you got it. Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, Inquisitors, Alchemists, Druids, Clerics, Magi, Oracles, etc. are all definitely Wizards. You 100% nailed the issue here. You definitely did not find the tree, while failing to find the forest.
(Above is sarcasm.)
Are you being sarcastic? I really can't tell. Please don't be so subtle—we're naught but humble gamers.
Fighter is an NPC class? Yea, because if it ain't a wizard, it's not worth playin', amirite? Facepalm.Yup, you got it. Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, Inquisitors, Alchemists, Druids, Clerics, Magi, Oracles, etc. are all definitely Wizards. You 100% nailed the issue here. You definitely did not find the tree, while failing to find the forest.
(Above is sarcasm.)
My point was that when folks get to ranking classes, wizard always comes out on top. By that metric, we should all be playing wizards. Wasn't intended to be taken seriously, though, especially by someone toutin' sarcasm :P
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