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Sure Fighters are awesome. They just happen to be less mechanically awesome then every other class in the game. Except the Rogue. `So yes, awesome, just the worst of the awesome. Great runners, sure, but the the last place ones. Now if only we could get the people who hate the fighter and chain it to real world reality to stop hating the fighter it would be fantastic. So let's really stick to those fighters haters and get some Charles Atlas Superpowers up in this class.
I agree in any world with wizards high level fighters should be good at combat beyond all reason. Obscenely residually good. Like anime hero jump off of buildings cut bullets in half headbutt through mountains good. Realism is holding fighters back.
Sure Fighters are awesome. They just happen to be less mechanically awesome then every other class in the game. Except the Rogue. `So yes, awesome, just the worst of the awesome. Great runners, sure, but the the last place ones. Now if only we could get the people who hate the fighter and chain it to real world reality to stop hating the fighter it would be fantastic. So let's really stick to those fighters haters and get some Charles Atlas Superpowers up in this class.I agree in any world with wizards high level fighters should be good at combat beyond all reason. Obscenely residually good. Like anime hero jump off of buildings cut bullets in half headbutt through mountains good. Realism is holding fighters back.
I could not disagree more. (Except the buildings thing; you can already basically do that. 20d6 is chump change to a high-level fighter.)
Fighters can have all the Charisma they need, and Intelligence too. No Multi-Ability Dependence here, my friend.
They lack ability synergy. If I wanted my stats to have less of an effect on how my character actually plays, I'd play a Ranger rather than a Fighter.
Really Fighters could be cool if the system itself didn't have such a problem with them actually being cool.
CMD is funked.
The Full-Attack paradigm is funked.
Will saves are too important.
Feats being not as interesting or versatile as most class features.
Casters being able to be good enough Fighters long enough to make Fighters rather pointless.
This is just my "Fighter can have skills too, but it costs a lot more resources than it should." build
Dr. Fighty McCharming
Male Half-Elf Fighter 10
LN Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision; Perception +17
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 14, flat-footed 23 (+11 armor, +3 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 79 (10d10+20)
Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +10 (+3 vs. fear); +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities bravery +3; Immune sleep
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 silversheen earth breaker +17/+12 (2d6+10/×3) and
. . +1 silversheen longsword +19/+14 (1d8+9/19-20) and
. . +2 silversheen falchion +21/+16 (2d4+13/15-20)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite longbow +16/+11 (1d8+8/19-20/×3)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (heavy blades +2, bows +1)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +16 (+18 sunder); CMD 30 (32 vs. sunder)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Cornugon Smash, Improved Critical (falchion), Improved Sunder, Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will, Point-Blank Shot, Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Weapon Focus (falchion)
Traits ease of faith, suspicious
Skills Diplomacy +18, Intimidate +17, Perception +17, Sense Motive +16; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven
SQ armor training 2, elf blood
Other Gear +2 full plate, +1 heavy steel shield, +1 adaptive composite longbow, +1 silversheen earth breaker, +1 silversheen longsword, +2 silversheen falchion, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of physical might (str & dex +2), bracers of falcon's aim, cloak of resistance +3, headband of inspired wisdom +2, ioun stone (clear spindle), ring of protection +1, wayfinder, 1,400 gp
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Special Abilities
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Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Cornugon Smash When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Improved Sunder You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Sure Fighters are awesome. They just happen to be less mechanically awesome then every other class in the game. Except the Rogue. `So yes, awesome, just the worst of the awesome. Great runners, sure, but the the last place ones. Now if only we could get the people who hate the fighter and chain it to real world reality to stop hating the fighter it would be fantastic. So let's really stick to those fighters haters and get some Charles Atlas Superpowers up in this class.I agree in any world with wizards high level fighters should be good at combat beyond all reason. Obscenely residually good. Like anime hero jump off of buildings cut bullets in half headbutt through mountains good. Realism is holding fighters back.
I think people have a different idea of realism maybe for the fighter who can cut down a dragon. I think they should totally be doing heroic leaps and smashing through things and should definitely have the chance to pick up cunning tricks and tactical abilities, and probably wouldn't hurt to be better at surviving the horrors of the world(will saves...) or a dragons fire(reflex...).
Not uhh... quiet the realism that pathfinder reflects I guess. And anime heroics can vary pretty greatly. Goku doesn't do the same thing as the Battosai or Ranma.
I could not disagree more. (Except the buildings thing; you can already basically do that. 20d6 is chump change to a high-level fighter.)Sure Fighters are awesome. They just happen to be less mechanically awesome then every other class in the game. Except the Rogue. `So yes, awesome, just the worst of the awesome. Great runners, sure, but the the last place ones. Now if only we could get the people who hate the fighter and chain it to real world reality to stop hating the fighter it would be fantastic. So let's really stick to those fighters haters and get some Charles Atlas Superpowers up in this class.I agree in any world with wizards high level fighters should be good at combat beyond all reason. Obscenely residually good. Like anime hero jump off of buildings cut bullets in half headbutt through mountains good. Realism is holding fighters back.
In not saying that fighters are that good inM saying that to balance caters they should be. But that's a discussion for one of the many fighter fix threads.
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Fighters can go all day long. High hit points high armor and no x\day abilities. Spellcasters get up shoot of their spells then need to take a nap. Even paladins and barbarians will run out of abilities given enough time. Unless your GM always allows the PCs to control when and where the battles are fighters are the way to go!That's true... But when those resources are over, the Fighter is forced to rest as well, since going alone will kill him. That kinda undermines the whole "I can go forever" thing (also, HP are not unlimited, and Fighters can't heal them by themselves).
You guys are being decidedly un-awesome and will be black-balled from the fighters guild.
That is not even a punishment. Fighter guilds are all lame-o. Now the barbarian guild, those guys Those guys know how to party. Pure heavy metal.
And barbarians are just better than fighters. At everything.
I love that guy! He's awesome. Totally cool fighter. Would have a beer with him +1This is just my "Fighter can have skills too, but it costs a lot more resources than it should." build
** spoiler omitted **...
You should have seen him back in Fighter University! He won the annual Wet Chainmail Contest!
Nowadays, I think'd I'd change a few things about him, but nothing major. Maybe sell that shield, I dunno...
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Fighters are good at fighting. Other classes are as good or better at fighting than a fighter, have better saves, and can do lots of other things well too.BOOOO! Other classes "participate in combat", and may do so effectively, but none are as good at FIGHTING as a fighter.
This kind of post and threads are a sad thing indeed. Refusing to acknowledge fighters problem is the reason the devs still print bad option for them.
I'd say Fighters are good at standing still and full-attacking, but not all that good at fighting. If PF were all about repeatedly punching a sandbag, Fighters would be OP as hell.My fighter can push the bad guy into a corner and treat him like a sandbag.
Like the ranger and the barbarian...and they have better saves and skills.
Fighters can go all day long. High hit points high armor and no x\day abilities. Spellcasters get up shoot of their spells then need to take a nap. Even paladins and barbarians will run out of abilities given enoughtime. Unless your GM always allows the PCs to control when and where the battles are fighters are the way to go!
Fighters have little problem in combat. The bad thing is that they trade all their out of combat to still not be better than he others in combat.
Like the ranger and the barbarian...and they have better saves and skills.I'd say Fighters are good at standing still and full-attacking, but not all that good at fighting. If PF were all about repeatedly punching a sandbag, Fighters would be OP as hell.My fighter can push the bad guy into a corner and treat him like a sandbag.
Goalposts moved.
I beat Ninja Gaiden on NES.Ah, yes... That thing still gives me nightmares... That and Battle Toads.
Video or it did not happen. Also, Gradius.
In that case, sign him up for Fighter college!
Pfft. Fighter College... I'm Barbarian University all the way. Everybody knows barbarians are two times smarter than fighters. 4 skill points a level beiatchs. Can't touch this.
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Video or it did not happen. Also, Gradius.I beat Ninja Gaiden on NES.Ah, yes... That thing still gives me nightmares... That and Battle Toads.
I don't think YouTube was around when I was 10~15. I was never a big fan of Gradius. I had the game and occasionally played it, but never cared enough to spend hours trying to beat it.
And holy s*%#, I'm not insane enough to try and beat those games again... I don't have nearly as much free time and they already caused enough pain, misery and frustration to me (enough to last a thousand generations, I believe). Go watch Game Grumps or something. I'm sure there are many Let's Players willing to put themselves through those 8-bit horrors!
This tpost and threads are a sad thing. Refusing to acknowledge fighters problem is the reason the devs still print bad option for them.
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I was still living at my parents house when I beat Ninja Gaiden, and I'm pretty sure I was still in High School. It had to have been 91 or 92 and while I did hit BBSs then, I didn't tape game sessions on my dad's betamax and even if I did, there was no way to post them. :P
And I'm sure 38 year old me doesn't have the twitch games skills that 15 year old me had.
The idea that Fighter's can't use skills or be faces is ridiculous. In 3.5, you're absolutely right because you have to spend two skill points to get one cross-class skill rank. Pathfinder did away with that and allowed anyone to train in any skill. One point=one rank in all skills. The class skill just means you get a +3 to the skill once you put one rank into it. Skill focus(anything) does that too and most fighters have feats to spare. Plus intimidate is a class skill. Add in the feat that let's you add your str bonus and a fighter can out-intimidate anyone except maybe a very specific barbarian build. Best of all, intimidate, unlike diplomacy, has in-combat and out-of-combat applications. Though in my GMed worlds, intimidate is naturally based on STR and you have to spend a feat to make CHA affect it. While a person can be intimidating through making threats well or force of personality (think Tywin Lannistar who can intimidate and control the Mountain That Rides), I think that is a trained skill represented by using a feat. Intimidating someone by flexing your huge biceps seems pretty natural to me and should require special training.
I am not blind to the faults of fighters, however. The claim of SAD is overly general. My TWF fighter relies on STR for damage and to-hit and DEX for feat qualifications. You could use weapon finesse and agile weapons but that limits you to lesser weapons. I want to duel wield a battleaxe and a warhammer. Most of the time though you're right about SAD.
Still could use a good Will/Ref save. Really there's little reason why a frontline class should have two weak saves. This even goes for the rogue which should be ref/will. Rogues are thieves and liars by-and-large and therefore should have slippery minds used to wiggle out of things. They should be able to extrapolate this to slip out of charms and dominates by subconsciously looking for loopholes. Fighters should have REF as a strong save. How are your reflexes not trained by deflecting sword blows. Defending against a weapon with a shield or another weapon requires reflex. So yeah, fighters need Fort and Reflex to be their strong saves. It just makes more sense. (Plus then they only have to use feats to buff one of their saves.)
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Can Fighter have skills and be face characters? Sure they can, but it takes much more effort and costs a lot more resources for them to do it, and even then, they still aren't as good as other classes.
It's not that it can't be done, it's just that it takes an disproportionately high effort to achieve lesser results.
This kind of post and threads are a sad thing indeed. Refusing to acknowledge fighters problem is the reason the devs still print bad option for them.Fighters are good at fighting. Other classes are as good or better at fighting than a fighter, have better saves, and can do lots of other things well too.BOOOO! Other classes "participate in combat", and may do so effectively, but none are as good at FIGHTING as a fighter.
<stop_liking_what_I_dont_like.jpg>
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It would help if Fighter Bonus feats didn't have to meet prerequisites. Rangers don't have to do so and have Favored Enemies, Spellcasting and an Animal Companion.
And more skills. With skill bonuses. And 2 good saves.
And I've noticed that when NPC adventurers turn up, the fact that the enemy wizard is a bigger threat just means that the PCs go out of their way to kill him first. Too bad the NPC fighters are in their way.
I'd be amused to hear about how those NPC fighters think they're going to stop me.
And I've noticed that when NPC adventurers turn up, the fact that the enemy wizard is a bigger threat just means that the PCs go out of their way to kill him first. Too bad the NPC fighters are in their way.I'd be amused to hear about how those NPC fighters think they're going to stop me.
I imagine they're going to try to hit you with their sticks before the allied Barbarian shows them what a real Martial is.
By shooting you with their freakin' laser eye-beams, smart guy....the fact that the enemy wizard is a bigger threat just means that the PCs go out of their way to kill him first. Too bad the NPC fighters are in their way.I'd be amused to hear about how those NPC fighters think they're going to stop me.
Pathfinder doesn't have an aggro mechanic, especially not for PCs. So what, precisely, are you thinking fighters are going to do when I:
- Fly around them (spellcasters, boots, winged race)
- Use Acrobatics
- Turn ethereal (spellcasters, items)
- Teleport (spellcasters, monk(!), items)
- Summon monsters into melee with the wizard
- Just run through and eat the AoO because screw it, hit point system
Etc, so forth.
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By shooting you with their freakin' laser eye-beams, smart guy....the fact that the enemy wizard is a bigger threat just means that the PCs go out of their way to kill him first. Too bad the NPC fighters are in their way.I'd be amused to hear about how those NPC fighters think they're going to stop me.
Favored weapon group, LAZERS!* Hard to compete with that since it has energy swords and high powered siege weapons like the Death Star in it.
*Caps is necessary, yes.
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By shooting you with their freakin' laser eye-beams, smart guy....the fact that the enemy wizard is a bigger threat just means that the PCs go out of their way to kill him first. Too bad the NPC fighters are in their way.I'd be amused to hear about how those NPC fighters think they're going to stop me.Favored weapon group, LAZERS!* Hard to compete with that since it has energy swords and high powered siege weapons like the Death Star in it.
*Caps is necessary, yes.
Still gets beat by Favored Weapon Group, Small elite taskforce.
I love fighters. Look at the name. But even I don't run around defending the core fighter. I think the fighters best class feature is actually the archetypes. Just because they let you do fun stuff that other classes generally don't get. I understand most people don't like tower shields but the phalanx fighter and tower shield specialist are some neat classes. You don't even need to use a tower shield to make use of their ability to use a reach weapon in one hand so you can shield bash with your other hand. Two weapon warrior doesn't get to dump dex like a ranger but he doesn't need greater two weapon fighting to make two attacks on AoOs and standard attacks. Dragoon gets up to +8 on damage and can attack at five feet with a reach weapon (incidentally better than the polearm fighter). Brawler makes a wonderful monk. It's little things like that. I like to build around weapons and combat styles so obviously the fighter ARCHETYPES appeal greatly to me. The lore warden isn't even a fighter...
Still gets beat by Favored Weapon Group, Small elite taskforce.
The question now is where am going to find a bunch of gnomes willing to form into a giant sword... Oh I know!
Best way to get any number of random guys to come help you do something!
Just because they let you do fun stuff that other classes generally don't get.
What if I told you.... if they weren't a part of your archetypes, they could be feats anyone could take?
Still gets beat by Favored Weapon Group, Small elite taskforce.The question now is where am going to find a bunch of gnomes willing to form into a giant sword... Oh I know!
Best way to get any number of random guys to come help you do something!
Just because they let you do fun stuff that other classes generally don't get.What if I told you.... if they weren't a part of your archetypes, they could be feats anyone could take?
Then I would say look at all these awesome things the fighter can use his bonus feats on. I think we can both agree that if feats were better than the fighters bonus feats would amount to more.
That's true... and I suppose it reveals one of the "secret advantages" of fighters - every time a new book of feats comes out, the potential of having lots of feats goes up.
Hah!
If they intended to give Fighters value for their bonus feats they would have done it by now.
/cynicism
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I need time to read through this entire thread, but I too love the fighter. I am, THE HUMAN FIGHTER!
Fighter is awful, and it's the best worst class in the game in my opinion. Why do I love the fighter? Because screw spells and all that gooble gobble! I want to be some dude in some crazy world just effin' things up like a madman.
You can instantly change everyones perception on reality to fit exactly what you make of it? Cool! I'm going to smash you in the face with my two handed reach weapon anyways. I don't care if you can one hit me, because when I die a thousand deaths to you, I know who the real winner is... and that's you, but me as well, because I played the fighter, and that makes me the BEST!
This class gets the screw job all the time, and gets it everywhere, and I still love him. It's like being the fan of the worst sports team ever, and people just don't understand why the hell you do it. Well, I guess I was just born this way.
I joined PFS, and I currently am running 3 human fighters. I started with 3E when I started to seriously play these games, and it's been nothing but Human Fighter. Who wants to do all that fancy book reading anyways?
Me "Conan, what is best in life?"
Conan "HUMAN, FIGHTER!"
Me "YES! YEEEEES!"
EDIT=Like my introduction to the game was first choosing the fighter, and of course I heard "they're a great class to begin with" and now I want to just punch people in the face for that. Anyways, I saw Monk and Rogue, and thought one day I'd try those out... NOPE! I say Monk and Rogue are better than the fighter when you look at the bigger picture of course, but what the hell happened with them too!? Monk is a dude dedicated to super mastery and focus to put his mind and body together as one, to make himself a living weapoMedium BAB.... Huh? That's weird? Fighter gets full BAB, so FIGHTER!
Rogue is just... no. FIGHTER!
I love the fighter, and if my fighter gets dominated, then I don't even care. My fighter gets to show off to the rest of the PC's how awesome he is by slaughtering them all with his full attack of erasing people from reality, MWHAHAHAHA!
fighter
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This class gets the screw job all the time, and gets it everywhere, and I still love him. It's like being the fan of the worst sports team ever, and people just don't understand why the hell you do it. Well, I guess I was just born this way.
Favoriting and going to requote in every Fighter thread from here forth.
People have no idea how I am obsessed with the fighter. If you meet me, and you say you like the fighter, then there is no escape for you, because I will use standstill on you, and you can never leave until I am done talking.
When people write about their views on the fighter getting so many feats, I rage. I am a feat fiend, and I need all the feats I can get, because I am the human fighter.
Why human fighter? Do you have to ask? MORE FEATS!