How does a GM beat bladebound / kensai?


Advice

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Wow...where to begin.
Houserules.
Optimized stat distribution.
Leadership >> Magus.

If your party just thinks burst damage is OP then a very obvious answer is pull any optimized burst damage dealer from the DPR Olympics thread.

Or use an admixture wizard. 11th level (src1/wiz10) comes to...oh around 13d6+26(quickened+intensified rod) plus 78+26(maximized) opener. Yes reflex for half and don't forget your 5 points of fire resist.

Or the ooze-form cave druid/brb with furious finish (310 hp strike I think it was). Starts ethereal so he can ambush the party.
Or the grenadier alchemist (127 DPR)
Come and get me barbarian (I AM Barbarian)
Or say a party of the above 4.

Or how does your magus handle being surprised and flat-footed? I'd have mobs of kobolds throwing flasks of acid during an ambush. For a challenge to an 11th level party...that's oh what how many 100's of kobolds? Starting from surprise (gm ad lib a nice camouflage-type spell from a caster patron) Let's say around 20 ranged touch attacks for 1d6 acid each character(more if you give them a level of alchemist or say point blank shot)

Or the GM has roleplay options with your black blade. If the secret purpose is cross to yours...trying beating the Will Save DC every day for Personality Conflict. Your magus loses...and is now an NPC.

Or heck how about a group of 4 witchfires? Especially nice if they are with a fire evoker (even the admixture build).

Even if everything was by the book, it is very very very easy to defeat a single character. Out action-economy and you're done.


To be somewhat fair, I never use power-attack and it the houserule is to help every other melee character. I get where it doesn't make sense though. I didn't think having 8 strength was so much of a powergaming dumpstat, especially when we're playing with a dwarf monk with 5 charisma -_-


Artanthos wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
A spell with 1min/level duration? I'm don't see how spending a limited resource for increased AC during 1, maybe 2 encounter is unbalanced. Especially considering that same resource could be used for more spiky damage that fuels so much of a Magus' offense.
Typically, a wand is used.
Then the Magus is spending gold and sacrificing action economy (and he can't use DD while holding that wand). Also, the spell is likely to last a single minute.

I should be more specific with you.

Typically a wand is used, before the fight begins, if the party suspects an impending conflict. Minimal scouting + good perception covers this.

At higher level, when pearls are cheap, an extended duration shield is used. In the OP's case, that would be a 22 minute duration. Unless the pc's are taking 20 to search each individual tile, 22 minutes will encompass multiple dungeon encounters.

At no time have I implied sources are not used. The right resources, used intelligently, can go a long way.

Well... Duh.

Having time to buff will make everyone considerably stronger, the Magus is not alone in that. Now the Bard has Heroism, the Cleric has Divine Power, the Ranger has Barkskin, the Druid has magic fang and the whole party likely has Haste.

Still... It's a 1min buff that costs money. I don't see how that is OP. And while I wouldn't grant Power Attack to characters with less than Str 13 (I do give it for free to all characters, but only to those who fulfill the feat's prerequisites), I don't think it makes the character OP.


Rocks fall, the Magus dies.

Conversely, just play the game, don't worry about 'beating' anybody.


Eptaceros wrote:
To be somewhat fair, I never use power-attack and it the houserule is to help every other melee character. I get where it doesn't make sense though. I didn't think having 8 strength was so much of a powergaming dumpstat, especially when we're playing with a dwarf monk with 5 charisma -_-

Well, he's a Monk, though... Those are usually exempt of accusations of power gaming. :P


I'm not worried about beating anyone at all, I actually wanted a bunch of ideas to beat my character so I can tell my DM he's not broken by a stretch. I realize I should just make characters around the same power-level as my buddies, but it it still hardly an OP concept at all.

Scarab Sages

Lemmy wrote:
Eptaceros wrote:
To be somewhat fair, I never use power-attack and it the houserule is to help every other melee character. I get where it doesn't make sense though. I didn't think having 8 strength was so much of a powergaming dumpstat, especially when we're playing with a dwarf monk with 5 charisma -_-
Well, he's a Monk, though... Those are usually exempt of accusations of power gaming. :P

Unless you had Crane Style :P

Or are playing one of the few good archetypes like Zen Archer, Tetori, or Sohei.

Scarab Sages

Imbicatus wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Eptaceros wrote:
To be somewhat fair, I never use power-attack and it the houserule is to help every other melee character. I get where it doesn't make sense though. I didn't think having 8 strength was so much of a powergaming dumpstat, especially when we're playing with a dwarf monk with 5 charisma -_-
Well, he's a Monk, though... Those are usually exempt of accusations of power gaming. :P

Unless you had Crane Style :P

Or are playing one of the few good archetypes like Zen Archer, Tetori, or Sohei.

Or could could consistently out damage the barbarian with your unarmed flurry.

Without using an archetype.

OP is as much the player as the character. A min/maxed commoner can be overpowered in the wrong players hands.


Imbicatus wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Eptaceros wrote:
To be somewhat fair, I never use power-attack and it the houserule is to help every other melee character. I get where it doesn't make sense though. I didn't think having 8 strength was so much of a powergaming dumpstat, especially when we're playing with a dwarf monk with 5 charisma -_-
Well, he's a Monk, though... Those are usually exempt of accusations of power gaming. :P

Unless you had Crane Style :P

Or are playing one of the few good archetypes like Zen Archer, Tetori, or Sohei.

Well, I did say "usually". Also, all of those are perfectly balanced (except CW, which was okay and is now as crappy as a feat can be, but that's a different discussion).

Scarab Sages

Lemmy wrote:
Still... It's a 1min buff that costs money. I don't see how that is OP. And while I wouldn't grant Power Attack to characters with less than Str 13 (I do give it for free to all characters, but only to those who fulfill the feat's prerequisites), I don't think it makes the character OP.

I'm not disagreeing. Everything has a cost. In actions, in gold, in opportunity.


Let's just say, with the stat and feat distribution, do most people consider that as powergaming? I've seen plenty of players in real sessions dump stats to 7 or worse (like 5 with penalties) all the time but I get flack for putting something to 8 -_-

At this point, I'm making a new character to avoid the 'powergaming' stigma, so I'm making a rogue so there's no way I'm overpowered lol


Re Stat Dumping: Your GM is indeed being silly to have a problem with this. Stat dumping is simply the way things work when you use point buy. If he didn't want you to do it, he should have rolled stats or put some kind of houserule into effect (i.e. only one stat below 10 allowed, etc).
It's also silly to be concerned about stat dumping because ability scores are meaningless in Pathfinder. Your GM has not realized this yet, and while that is annoying for you, it is also not really his fault. The system misleads people into believing ability scores actually serve as some kind of useful indicator of what a character is about, when in fact they do not, and should not.

The bottom line, though, is that I don't really blame anyone for the situation you are experiencing. I blame the stupid, stupid system. It causes fights. I'll say it again: the system causes fights. A lot of people on these boards blame the players rather than the system, and enjoy voicing platitudes like "The game should be about having fun with your friends; that's all that matters." These people are frustrating because we can only assume that they either do not have a very good understanding of system design, are not invested in the numeric/tactical side of the hobby, or have simply had the good luck to be near a group locally that is perfectly ideologically aligned with them. In any event, their experience-base is probably not helpful to those having these kinds of problems, and thus their earnest exhortations tend to just come off as smug. By the way, they are of course correct in a sense. But I personally believe that dismissing the system side of conflicts and focusing entirely on the social is not helpful.

OP, your situation is difficult and probably Favored is right that you will just have to find a new group. I do not like to assume that this option is readily available to you, however. If you want to keep your current group, there are some things I think you have to consider.

1. You will probably need to abandon your current character. Your GM hates it. If you keep it around, the mutual antagonism will only increase. The point of your thread seems to be enabling you to anticipate your GM's future tactics so that, presumably, you can counter those too. This will only further infuriate him, so what's the point? Alternately, you may be trying to find suggestions from people here that you can make to your GM about how to beat your character. This, too, is likely to bother him. Many GMs hate the idea of "counters"- that is, having to plan their encounters around specific characters. Also, suggesting these things implies that his problems with the character are his, rather than your, fault.

2. Even getting rid of the character and making a new one may cause tension. The GM may feel annoyed that he has to write the character out of the plot. He may feel guilty for having forced out the thing you want to play, and he may take his guilt out on you as anger. He may see the move as passive aggressive and/or condescending on your part. I would say the best way to avoid these problems is to seem really excited about a new character concept, but sadly this too can backfire. He may find you fickle, and be even more frustrated that you put him through so much grief over your Magus, when obviously it wasn't even that important to you since you abandoned it so readily. Avoiding all of these impressions is difficult.

3. If you do manage to successfully transition from your current character to a new one, be sure not to make the same mistake again. Make a character that you don't feel the need to stat dump on, or one that you can stat dump without offending your GM's sensibilities (the fact that people have less of a problem with stat dumped casters, for instance, is the ultimate irony behind all the stat-dumping nonsense). Don't use any classes that you know annoy your GM.

That said, I have to ask you another question. Do you RP your character much? If this is a simulation heavy, RP heavy group, then that could be your problem. Is that other player's cohort funny or interesting? It sounds like your group enjoys Leadership for the RP opportunities it brings, and like maybe they just plain don't think or care about the power balance of anything that makes them feel this way. It may be that you could get away with a lot more, system wise, if your character and RP style are aligned with theirs. In short, maybe you just need to RP more.


it just sounds like you have unfun friends.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

Rocks fall, the Magus dies.

Conversely, just play the game, don't worry about 'beating' anybody.

One could argue that if there's no "beating anybody," then what you are doing is not a "game." We could all hang out and do improvisational acting/storytelling exercises instead, and save a lot of time and money that we currently spend buying dice, maps, minis etc.


Artanthos wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Still... It's a 1min buff that costs money. I don't see how that is OP. And while I wouldn't grant Power Attack to characters with less than Str 13 (I do give it for free to all characters, but only to those who fulfill the feat's prerequisites), I don't think it makes the character OP.
I'm not disagreeing. Everything has a cost. In actions, in gold, in opportunity.

Unless you're the GM...

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! DANCE, PUPPETS, DANCE!!! BOW TO MY POWER OVER REALITY!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! *dramatic lightning effect*


I actually have great friends and we all RP quite a bunch; that's the best part of the game. I played a Bladebound magus cause I thought it was fun to have this cocky douchebag character with a brooklyn accent talking trash to his sword (that the GM played well) but other people think it's too strong and is 'bogarting' combat now.

Let's ignore that one of them has Leadership, playing two characters incorrectly (He both completely made the character and is playing them at all times) but him and the GM seem to think i'm trying to powergame so.. -.- I don't know how I can convince them Leadership is way...way..way better than a simple Magus


Erick Wilson wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

Rocks fall, the Magus dies.

Conversely, just play the game, don't worry about 'beating' anybody.

One could argue that if there's no "beating anybody," then what you are doing is not a "game." We could all hang out and do improvisational acting/storytelling exercises instead, and save a lot of time and money that we currently spend buying dice, maps, minis etc.

I didn't say there is no beating anybody. I suggested to not worry about it. The GM doesn't need to 'try to win' so to speak, he can just play his role and let the dice fall where they may.

That's just how I prefer to GM though, everyone has his own style.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Erick Wilson wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

Rocks fall, the Magus dies.

Conversely, just play the game, don't worry about 'beating' anybody.

One could argue that if there's no "beating anybody," then what you are doing is not a "game." We could all hang out and do improvisational acting/storytelling exercises instead, and save a lot of time and money that we currently spend buying dice, maps, minis etc.

I didn't say there is no beating anybody. I suggested to not worry about it. The GM doesn't need to 'try to win' so to speak, he can just play his role and let the dice fall where they may.

That's just how I prefer to GM though, everyone has his own style.

If beating people isn't important, then don't have it be part of the activity (i.e. just do improv storytelling or maybe play Cortex). If it is important, then you have to "worry about it."

EDIT: I guess my problem with what you're saying is that it only goes one way. People don't want the GM to worry about "beating" (i.e. challenging) them, but they sure as heck want to worry about beating the encounters. Also, you don't maintain your POV when the imbalance is in the other direction. In other words, if a ridiculously hard fight wrecks the party, you have no sympathy when the GM's explanation is "well, I guess that was more than you could handle, but I wasn't really thinking about it. I don't worry about whether challenges are appropriate to your party; I just let the dice fall where they may."


Let me put my statement another way.

When I play sports, I'm not playing to 'beat' my opponent. I'm playing the game. It's a general goal to win of course (and to be honest I'm a fairly competitive person by nature), but I'm there to have fun and whoever wins is whoever wins, no harm no foul.

That's the sort of perspective I'm taking here.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Eptaceros wrote:

...

Let's ignore that one of them has Leadership, playing two characters incorrectly (He both completely made the character and is playing them at all times) but him and the GM seem to think i'm trying to powergame so.. -.- I don't know how I can convince them Leadership is way...way..way better than a simple Magus

Really?

Character 1 with Leadership: Tier 1 class (Wizard or Cleric)
Character 2 from houseruled Leadership (full character benefits): Tier 1 Class (Wizard or Cleric)

Or heck any Tier 1 class with a second character via Leadership can be profoundly powerful. Give the second character a companion/familiar for even more action economy exploits. Now you have
Character 1.
Pet 1
Character 2.
Pet 2

4 actions a round for everyone else's single action. Maybe your GM doesn't consider this an issue compared to OMG 1d6+5+10d6 shocking grasp = average 43.5 points of damage.

And really this doesn't solve the fundamental issue. The post by Erick Wilson got the gist. It doesn't matter what you do if the GM is convinced of something no matter whether it is true or has any basis in fact.

You could try turnabout. Be the GM. Have the villains be carbon copies of the current party (Mirror Universe). While this could very well demonstrate the various power potentials...it could easily alienate everyone else.


The GM really had it for me the last encounter we played. Whether he cooked the numbers or not (he had Will saves of 30 at level 11 I failed against) I know if the players aren't on the level of me, I have to readjust and... almost not pay attention at all to making really strong characters.

I'm just naturally bad at that cause I'm an extremely competitive person. I'm not trying to 'win' the game, but I don't want to be, at least, not the useless chump lol

Scarab Sages

Eptaceros wrote:

The GM really had it for me the last encounter we played. Whether he cooked the numbers or not (he had Will saves of 30 at level 11 I failed against) I know if the players aren't on the level of me, I have to readjust and... almost not pay attention at all to making really strong characters.

I'm just naturally bad at that cause I'm an extremely competitive person. I'm not trying to 'win' the game, but I don't want to be, at least, not the useless chump lol

The last tier 1-5 PFS scenario I played had a player with a Rogue who used a heavy crossbow without precise shot or rapid reload. She contributed 3 points of damage for the entire scenario. Everyone appeared OP compared to her, and no one was really optimized heavily. If you have players that are not optimizing, then you have to adjust to them to try to give them an opportunity to be useful, as long as you aren't risking a TPK to do so.


Eptaceros wrote:

I actually have great friends and we all RP quite a bunch; that's the best part of the game...

Then relax, lol. You've got a good thing going. If there's no real hostility, then I would say just let them raz you periodically about being OP. As far as convincing your GM you're not OP, it's never going to happen. If his subjective experience is that you are making play less fun/challenging than the Leadership guy and his cohort, then that's valid and you just have to accept it.

For instance, I played in a Star Wars game. One player was playing a Jedi and another was playing a grappling-based wookie. The GM became very frustrated with the wookie player rather than the Jedi player, which in turn drove the wookie player crazy. Jedi are by far the crackest thing in the game, he correctly protested. But the GM didn't care about that. The point was that the game was fun when the Jedi used her powers, and it wasn't fun when the wookie did his grappling thing. Even though the Jedi could competently handle way more types of encounters than the wookie, the wookie totally wrecked any encounters involving melee based villains. So whenever the GM was looking for an awesome lightsaber duel, what he got in its place was a wookie squeezing the Sith to death effortlessly. The same is true of Magi and their nova-prone tendencies.


Eptaceros wrote:

Let's just say, with the stat and feat distribution, do most people consider that as powergaming? I've seen plenty of players in real sessions dump stats to 7 or worse (like 5 with penalties) all the time but I get flack for putting something to 8 -_-

At this point, I'm making a new character to avoid the 'powergaming' stigma, so I'm making a rogue so there's no way I'm overpowered lol

Admirable... one stat at 8 after racial, everything else at least 10 , most in the 14-16 range maybe one 18 post racial should be no cause for further accusation. If they whine at that, you shouldn't take it.


Wow... that GM is acting really childish...

Bladebound Kensai magus is weaksauce compared to the base magus with Wayang Spellhunter+Magical Knack (shocking grasp)+1 level dip into crossblooded sorcerer (Orc/Dragonic)+intensify spell+Spell Perfection (using it on Empower Spell)+Dervish Dance+Keen Scimitar.... i.e. just about every other magus ever....

Scarab Sages

Yeah... You're fine. If they're whining, they need to learn to play the game. System mastery is part of the overall experience, and if they DON'T like having someone super awesome with them... well, what kind of adventurer DOESN'T LIKE HAVING A SUPER AWESOME PLAYER WITH THEM???

I had a paladin in my last game crit-smite an evil outsider into the ground with a single hit, and nobody cried about it. They thought it was AWESOME. These guys need to understand that when you do something awesome, it's awesome, and you're not cheating, just being awesome. Nothing wrong with that.


People think it's broken cause Kensai can actually get good AC. The main equipment I have now is:

Silken Ceremonial +5 (6 Armor)
Bracers +3 (9 armor, including armor)
+6 Dex Belt (Makes it +7 dex mod)
Ioun stone (making INT 20/ +5 mod)
Ring of Protection +3 (3 Deflect)

AC 34
Touch 26
FF 22

Of course, that's without any mage armor, shield, or whatever other possible defensive buffs

Lantern Lodge

Ummm....

The bracers don't stack with regular armor.
Mage armor won't stack with regular armor either, just FYI

Scarab Sages

K177Y C47 wrote:

Wow... that GM is acting really childish...

Bladebound Kensai magus is weaksauce compared to the base magus with Wayang Spellhunter+Magical Knack (shocking grasp)+1 level dip into crossblooded sorcerer (Orc/Dragonic)+intensify spell+Spell Perfection (using it on Empower Spell)+Dervish Dance+Keen Scimitar.... i.e. just about every other magus ever....

What?

What do you mean its a demon??

We're in the Worldwound???


Thank you frodo, good to know. What about Shield (spell)?

Lantern Lodge

Shield stacks with anything that doesn't give a shield bonus.

Scarab Sages

Eptaceros wrote:

People think it's broken cause Kensai can actually get good AC. The main equipment I have now is:

Silken Ceremonial +5 (6 Armor)
Bracers +3 (9 armor, including armor)
+6 Dex Belt (Makes it +7 dex mod)
Ioun stone (making INT 20/ +5 mod)
Ring of Protection +3 (3 Deflect)

AC 34
Touch 26
FF 22

Of course, that's without any mage armor, shield, or whatever other possible defensive buffs

Silken Ceremonial and Bracers will not stack.

Mage Armor stacks with neither of the above.

I would have skipped the +6 dex belt and went with a +4 dex belt, +4 int headband, +2 amulet and a Jingasa.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Str 8? Shadows are what you run screaming from. Especially if they're advanced.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
Str 8? Shadows are what you run screaming from. Especially if they're advanced.

And that's when you wish you had Mage Armor and Shield's up. :)

Scarab Sages

LazarX wrote:
Str 8? Shadows are what you run screaming from. Especially if they're advanced.

Kensai has the best AC in the game vs shadows, if they are using Mage Armor or Bracers of Armor and Shield

The last scenario I played with my bladebound kensai, I had to explain to the GM why a 31 incorporeal touch attack from a greater shadow missed me.


I'd recommend not gaming with them, once they accuse you of something so subjective you're pretty much destined to be receiving these accusations over and over again for any reason.

Your build isn't even optimized, cleave is of no real use once you get to a certain level.


Artanthos wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Str 8? Shadows are what you run screaming from. Especially if they're advanced.

Kensai has the best AC in the game vs shadows, if they are using Mage Armor or Bracers of Armor and Shield

The last scenario I played with my bladebound kensai, I had to explain to the GM why a 31 incorporeal touch attack from a greater shadow missed me.

Better not be caught Flat-Footed then. Because Dex and Canny Defense goes away.

A situation which might come up more often than you think, given that Shadows can, you know, hang out in walls and such.


Davor wrote:

Yeah... You're fine. If they're whining, they need to learn to play the game. System mastery is part of the overall experience, and if they DON'T like having someone super awesome with them... well, what kind of adventurer DOESN'T LIKE HAVING A SUPER AWESOME PLAYER WITH THEM???

I had a paladin in my last game crit-smite an evil outsider into the ground with a single hit, and nobody cried about it. They thought it was AWESOME. These guys need to understand that when you do something awesome, it's awesome, and you're not cheating, just being awesome. Nothing wrong with that.

I for one find this sort of thing banal and exasperating, both as a GM and as a player.

One man's awesome is another man's tiresome.

EDIT: I mean, it depends. If he one shotted, like, one of four Incubi from the encounter, then fine I suppose. If he one shotted the BBEG, it's tiresome and annoying no matter which side of the GM screen I'm on.

Dark Archive

Eptaceros wrote:
Kensai build with errors

what does your GM need to do to beat that? That's an easy question, just send a rogue and a Warrior(NPC class) against you and watch you die. Any opponent who comes at you with Greater Feint will murder you. One decent bluff check and your AC drops to nothing with the warrior standing around with a readied action to hit you with a club (or any other embarrassing weapon) if you try to cast a spell.

With that low of a wis score and 3/4 bab he's going to get his bluff off every time so he'll be sneak attacking you constantly and the penalty to concentration checks from getting whacked with that club will pretty much keep you from ever casting a spell.

Kensai's are glass pea shooters that routinely have their lunch money taken from them by rogues of all people. Blargh.

*there's nothing about the Kensai that prevents it from having it's Dex & Int bonus taken away from it by a feint maneuver. Without that it's squishier then almost any other class in the game.


Artanthos wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:

Wow... that GM is acting really childish...

Bladebound Kensai magus is weaksauce compared to the base magus with Wayang Spellhunter+Magical Knack (shocking grasp)+1 level dip into crossblooded sorcerer (Orc/Dragonic)+intensify spell+Spell Perfection (using it on Empower Spell)+Dervish Dance+Keen Scimitar.... i.e. just about every other magus ever....

What?

What do you mean its a demon??

We're in the Worldwound???

Elemental Spell metamagic... its a thing you know...


Erick Wilson wrote:
Davor wrote:

Yeah... You're fine. If they're whining, they need to learn to play the game. System mastery is part of the overall experience, and if they DON'T like having someone super awesome with them... well, what kind of adventurer DOESN'T LIKE HAVING A SUPER AWESOME PLAYER WITH THEM???

I had a paladin in my last game crit-smite an evil outsider into the ground with a single hit, and nobody cried about it. They thought it was AWESOME. These guys need to understand that when you do something awesome, it's awesome, and you're not cheating, just being awesome. Nothing wrong with that.

I for one find this sort of thing banal and exasperating, both as a GM and as a player.

One man's awesome is another man's tiresome.

EDIT: I mean, it depends. If he one shotted, like, one of four Incubi from the encounter, then fine I suppose. If he one shotted the BBEG, it's tiresome and annoying no matter which side of the GM screen I'm on.

Well if the players literally suck, they can't get mad if someone is better than them. I mean really.

I hate it worse when it comes from the "roleplayers." They decided they wanted to play a some weird combination of Alchemist, Wizard, and fighter because "RP reasons" then get all pissed off when the guy who brought something that wasn't complete weaksauce does better than then (like the bard who puts lots of ranks into Bluff, Diplomacy, and intimidate with a 18 in Cha...)


The biggest issue I'm seeing here is that, once again, there is a competition between the GM and a player.

Look, I get it when one player character gets all the attention, does all the damage, kills all the creatures, etc. It takes the fun out of it for other players, and the number one rule of this game is to have fun. THAT should be the measuring stick for when you need to reconsider your character build, your tactics, your approach, etc. Conversely, you might be served just as well by offering to help the other players develop their characters better.

That aside, though, I'm blown away by the idea that a GM should be planning to defeat a specific PC. How is that the point of the game?

The GM's primary mission is to be a story designer and an arbiter as the story plays out. The intent of the game, first and foremost, is to entertain. Combat encounters are meant as the action portion of the entertainment. They are supposed to challenge, to be sure, but they are meant to entertain. The GM has an obligation to tailor encounters to serve that end.

If the PC is about to fight some BBEG who is (A) well aware of the hero's capabilities and (B) has had the requisite time and resources to prepare the battlefield against him, then by all means: have that epic encounter wherein the evil genius warlord/archmage/whatever pushes the PC to his absolute limits. I find it silly, however, for someone to take the same approach with any given encounter simply to teach a player a lesson. Is there context justifying this approach? Absent such context, doesn't it stretch the imagination for a colony of kobolds (to use an earlier example) to develop the infrastructure to make glass or ceramic bottles and acid? Doesn't it get just as stale when - lo and behold! - every opponent has somehow managed to either optimize themselves or the environment they're fighting in against the party?

The GM also bears responsibility for the build-up to those encounters, and the means by which he accepts, empowers, and enables the character builds the players introduce in his campaign (and, in this situation at least, he happens to oppose). For instance, since when is it a given that a character will find and/or be able to craft or commission the very treasure that he needs to maximize their build?

Scarab Sages

K177Y C47 wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:

Wow... that GM is acting really childish...

Bladebound Kensai magus is weaksauce compared to the base magus with Wayang Spellhunter+Magical Knack (shocking grasp)+1 level dip into crossblooded sorcerer (Orc/Dragonic)+intensify spell+Spell Perfection (using it on Empower Spell)+Dervish Dance+Keen Scimitar.... i.e. just about every other magus ever....

What?

What do you mean its a demon??

We're in the Worldwound???

Elemental Spell metamagic... its a thing you know...

You won't fit it in with all the other twists in that build.

By the time you have spell perfection and are casting Shocking Grasp for 15d6+30, the kensai is ending the fight before you get initiative.

Scarab Sages

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Eptaceros wrote:
Kensai build with errors

what does your GM need to do to beat that? That's an easy question, just send a rogue and a Warrior(NPC class) against you and watch you die. Any opponent who comes at you with Greater Feint will murder you. One decent bluff check and your AC drops to nothing with the warrior standing around with a readied action to hit you with a club (or any other embarrassing weapon) if you try to cast a spell.

With that low of a wis score and 3/4 bab he's going to get his bluff off every time so he'll be sneak attacking you constantly and the penalty to concentration checks from getting whacked with that club will pretty much keep you from ever casting a spell.

Kensai's are glass pea shooters that routinely have their lunch money taken from them by rogues of all people. Blargh.

*there's nothing about the Kensai that prevents it from having it's Dex & Int bonus taken away from it by a feint maneuver. Without that it's squishier then almost any other class in the game.

He's going to be sneak attacking me once.

He's either going to one shot me, or he's going to die when I nova on him.

All that magic I don't bother using for trivial encounters comes out when something starts to hurt me.

Dark Archive

Artanthos wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Eptaceros wrote:
Kensai build with errors

what does your GM need to do to beat that? That's an easy question, just send a rogue and a Warrior(NPC class) against you and watch you die. Any opponent who comes at you with Greater Feint will murder you. One decent bluff check and your AC drops to nothing with the warrior standing around with a readied action to hit you with a club (or any other embarrassing weapon) if you try to cast a spell.

With that low of a wis score and 3/4 bab he's going to get his bluff off every time so he'll be sneak attacking you constantly and the penalty to concentration checks from getting whacked with that club will pretty much keep you from ever casting a spell.

Kensai's are glass pea shooters that routinely have their lunch money taken from them by rogues of all people. Blargh.

*there's nothing about the Kensai that prevents it from having it's Dex & Int bonus taken away from it by a feint maneuver. Without that it's squishier then almost any other class in the game.

He's going to be sneak attacking me once.

He's either going to one shot me, or he's going to die when I nova on him.

All that magic I don't bother using for trivial encounters comes out when something starts to hurt me.

He's going to sneak attack you constantly and you'll probably never get a spell off. That's what the readied actions are for, every time you try to cast a spell you get popped in the head with the club (greatclub, greatsword, etc.) where every point of that damage is added to the DC of your concentration check to cast. DC 17 check for that shocking grasp is easy, DC 35-40 however is not.

No casting for you and like with most Magi, without your spells you're not really a threat.

Scarab Sages

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


He's going to sneak attack you constantly and you'll probably never get a spell off. That's what the readied actions are for, every time you try to cast a spell you get popped in the head with the club (greatclub, greatsword, etc.) where every point of that damage is added to the DC of your concentration check to cast. DC 17 check for that shocking grasp is easy, DC 35-40 however is not.
No casting for you and like with most Magi, without your spells you're not really a threat.

Did you bluff and sneak attack or did you ready an action? You can't do both.

Any magus, on the other hand, gets to activate several class abilities and full attack before deciding if he actually casts that spell. With the kensai, that full attack prior to casting has a good chance of dropping a rogue.

Does your readied action account for the magus 5' stepping after full attacking but before casting?

Lantern Lodge

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Eptaceros wrote:
Kensai build with errors

what does your GM need to do to beat that? That's an easy question, just send a rogue and a Warrior(NPC class) against you and watch you die. Any opponent who comes at you with Greater Feint will murder you. One decent bluff check and your AC drops to nothing with the warrior standing around with a readied action to hit you with a club (or any other embarrassing weapon) if you try to cast a spell.

With that low of a wis score and 3/4 bab he's going to get his bluff off every time so he'll be sneak attacking you constantly and the penalty to concentration checks from getting whacked with that club will pretty much keep you from ever casting a spell.

Kensai's are glass pea shooters that routinely have their lunch money taken from them by rogues of all people. Blargh.

*there's nothing about the Kensai that prevents it from having it's Dex & Int bonus taken away from it by a feint maneuver. Without that it's squishier then almost any other class in the game.

He's going to be sneak attacking me once.

He's either going to one shot me, or he's going to die when I nova on him.

All that magic I don't bother using for trivial encounters comes out when something starts to hurt me.

He's going to sneak attack you constantly and you'll probably never get a spell off. That's what the readied actions are for, every time you try to cast a spell you get popped in the head with the club (greatclub, greatsword, etc.) where every point of that damage is added to the DC of your concentration check to cast. DC 17 check for that shocking grasp is easy, DC 35-40 however is not.

No casting for you and like with most Magi, without your spells you're not really a threat.

Options available to magus:

Pull out wand of truestrike, take an AoO and bull rush the rogue 20 feet away, off a cliff, etc. Or disarm. Or whatever else you want to do because Rogue CMD's tend to suck.

Or: Because you probably have mirror image up, laugh at the rogue and cast anyways. He has a very low chance of hitting you.

Or: Activate quick runners shirt, take the AoO, move ten feet away and do your business.

Or: simply move away and cast mirror image and laugh at rogue.

Or: Since your probably flying after a certain point, 5 foot step UP and cast spell, no issue.

Or: Pull out your spell storing weapon and proceed to whack at the rogue without using any spells.

Or: Delay until after a teammates turn, who will distance the rogue for you, or kill, or maim.

Or: ... Get the picture?

Wayfinders

GM's should never beat their players. They should provide a challenging yet fun setting for players to become all they could possibly be. Incredibly powerful fantastical characters doing incredibly fantastic things.

If your not having fun your not doing it right.

Dark Archive

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Eptaceros wrote:
Kensai build with errors

what does your GM need to do to beat that? That's an easy question, just send a rogue and a Warrior(NPC class) against you and watch you die. Any opponent who comes at you with Greater Feint will murder you. One decent bluff check and your AC drops to nothing with the warrior standing around with a readied action to hit you with a club (or any other embarrassing weapon) if you try to cast a spell.

With that low of a wis score and 3/4 bab he's going to get his bluff off every time so he'll be sneak attacking you constantly and the penalty to concentration checks from getting whacked with that club will pretty much keep you from ever casting a spell.

Kensai's are glass pea shooters that routinely have their lunch money taken from them by rogues of all people. Blargh.

*there's nothing about the Kensai that prevents it from having it's Dex & Int bonus taken away from it by a feint maneuver. Without that it's squishier then almost any other class in the game.

He's going to be sneak attacking me once.

He's either going to one shot me, or he's going to die when I nova on him.

All that magic I don't bother using for trivial encounters comes out when something starts to hurt me.

He's going to sneak attack you constantly and you'll probably never get a spell off. That's what the readied actions are for, every time you try to cast a spell you get popped in the head with the club (greatclub, greatsword, etc.) where every point of that damage is added to the DC of your concentration check to cast. DC 17 check for that shocking grasp is easy, DC 35-40 however is not.

No casting for you and like with most Magi, without your spells you're not really a threat.

Options available to magus:

Pull out wand of truestrike, take an AoO and bull rush the rogue 20 feet away, off a cliff, etc. Or disarm. Or whatever else you want to do because Rogue...

I only respond because it's funny how you didn't actually read what was written and then spout off a series of illegal and/or self destructive actions that don't actually stop what's going on. The WARRIOR is the one with the readied action the rogue is free to respond however they want.

Now, you do know you can't 5' straight up right?
And pulling out that wand and trying to disarm makes you eat 2greatsword backed AoO's while moving away doesn't stop the rogue from following you and keeping you from casting as for rogue CMD's they are usually as good as if not better then the Magi's.
As for the rest of your choices every last one of them makes you eat an AoO and with the diminished AC they will usually hit and hurt (especially the SA's) and with the D8 HD and low con score of the normal Kensai really hasten the end of the fight.
About the only thing you posted that actually helps is waiting for someone to come save the Kensai.
It's really not that hard to shut down this archetype. Actually the easiest thing to do is just turn the lights out (Deeper Darkness) and the Kensai's AC and accuracy is pretty well neutralized.

Scarab Sages

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Actually the easiest thing to do is just turn the lights out (Deeper Darkness) and the Kensai's AC and accuracy is pretty well neutralized.

You don't take Blind Fighting????

I thought that was standard practice given how common deeper darkness is.

And yes, my choice, kill the rogue first, is a valid and legal option. With nothing the fighter and his held action can do to stop it.

A flaming, corrosive, keen scimitar with Black Blade Strike, weapon specialization and critical focus deals decent damage before I even start casting.

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