Hexcrafter or Kensai

[Taku Ooka Nin]

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

Ah, so it takes 2-3 rounds to get the -12... and it takes two level 3 spell slots.

Actually you could hit them with THREE (3) bestow curses in 1 round.

Spell-Storing Weapon (holding lvl 3 spell), on hit bestow curse.
Holding a spell cast the previous round or before combat.
Spell combat, attack first to discharge held spell and to discharge spell storing weapon, cast the spell at the end of the full attack and deliver it as a free action per touch spells.
Total of -12 to an attribute.

So, you were saying?

Spell storing armor and maybe the enemy attacks and hits him afterwards for -18 to an attribute.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Of course, you assume you have the surprise advantage. In which case a Kensai can have Shocking Grasp (10d6) in his weapon, stored in his weapon empowered (via the arcana), and then casted in combat for 35d6 straight up damage, not counting critical hits or actual weapon damage, all in one round!

Honestly though, I wasn't assuming you have the surprise round.

@Taku Ooka Nin, the -12 is to saves, not to a stat, you only got to -9 to a single save.

Using Evil Eye (which was mentioned) + Bestow Curse takes AT LEAST two rounds.

[ekibus]

Wow came home from work with a lot of reading :) First some clarifications: does hexes not work with spell combat? If so, ouch. Also the half elf gets the favored class bonus as the elf? Or do I have to take something special for it?

Sounds like a lot of people are sort of torn on the hexcrafter or Kensai, didn't expect a war :)

So really it comes down to the Kensai being more damage oriented and the hexcrafter being more of a debuffer? The Gm only allows one trait so I have to pick either the shocking grasp or the cold route. If I go the hexcrafter I'm thinking more the str route and if I go Kensai, I would probably go more dex (with combat reflexes to make the most out of it)

Thanks for all the feedback, I'm still learning the magus, he turned out to be a bit more complicated than I expected

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Yeah... Hexes don't work with spell combat. If they did, Hexcrafter would win hands down.

[Thaago]

Ummm - does bestow curse with the same effect stack? I've done a quick search and threads from a couple years ago say no.

Ah! Found it in the FAQ:

Quote:

Witch, Evil Eye Hex: Can I use this hex more than once on a target?

Yes. As long as you apply a different penalty with each use of the hex (AC, ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks), you can have multiple penalties on the same target. Applying the same hex penalty to a target just resets the duration to the most recent use of the hex.

Example: On round 1, you hex the target's AC. On round 2, you hex the target's attack rolls, so the target now has two evil eye hexes on it. On round 3, you hex the target's saving throws, so it now has three evil eye hexes on it. On round 4, you hex its AC again, resetting the duration of the AC-hex (which does not add an additional –2 penalty to its AC). The same thing would happen if two witches were using evil eye on the same target--as long as each evil eye hex applied a penalty to a different thing, they'd all apply.

This doesn't violate the general rule for stacking penalties--each evil eye effect is basically a different source, even though they stem from the evil eye hex (the evil eye hex is much like 5 separate weak hexes under a common umbrella). In the same way that multiple castings of bestow curse on the same target should stack as long as they do different things (penalize Strength, penalize Dex, penalize attack rolls, take no action, and so on), multiple uses of the evil eye hex stack as long as they're targeting different game statistics.

I mean you can still hit them with 3 different devastating curses. Just not all the same.

[StreamOfTheSky]

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

Yeah... Hexes don't work with spell combat. If they did, Hexcrafter would win hands down.

That's why you use the offensive hexes (basically just Slumber till high levels, really) to complement spell combat / spellstrike. Not synergize with them. You use them to get a nice ranged threat for when you can't get to melee or full attack in melee. For when stealth is an issue (hexes are usually Su, and most make no sound; plus...Slumber on the guards). For when you're grappled and have no hope of making the concentration check to cast. Flight and Prehensile Hair on the other hand, *do* synergize with and aid the Magus's normal shtick. The hair lets him deliver touch spells from outside enemies' reach and flight helps him to actually reach melee in the first place.

Of course, there is also the Hex Strike feat, if you're willing to invest in unarmed a bit (just a bit; make all but one of your attacks with your sword, use a single unarmed strike to try and land Slumber or whatever as a swift) and your DM is willing to go RAI instead of idiotic RAW ("The class feature's called 'Hex Magus' and not 'Hex', so you don't qualify for the feat herp derp!"). I don't think it's worth it, but it's an option.

[master_marshmallow]

This thread just makes me angry.

There are very few things the Kensai does that the Hexcrafter can't. AC is not one of them.

All arguments about investing in pearls of power or wands are invalid because the Hexcrafter can too guys, or did you forget that?

I think the main thing I can't stand the most about the archetype that it gives up Spell Recall, which is essential for the crit fishing builds, and it gives up armor in favor of a monk esk AC bonus which is just alright if your build maxes out DEX and INT, but it really makes all the builds end up looking even more the same than most magus builds are smashed for.

Taking advantage of 0 ACP 0% ASF armor is not something new, any class has been able to do that for as long as forever, it really isn't that impressive.

And after all that his AC is comparable, not better. God save him should he become flat footed.

The hexcrafter still gets spell recall, just not until later. The Curse spells allow you to make builds that aren't focused on damage and don't lose to enemies with energy immunity.

Kensai is one of the most overrated archetypes I have ever seen.

[Thaago]

So you are saying that because the Kensai has a role that it does very well, while not being all that good at another archetype's role, it sucks?

...

Look, no one here is saying the Hexcrafter is bad! We all know its a good archetype. They archetypes have different strengths, so choose the one that magnifies what you want to play!

We are claiming that the Kensai has its own strength and is also a good archetype, that we might choose if we wanted to play that way. AC came up because its easy to think that Kensai AC sucks, while in fact it is comparable to a little better. Personally, I would play a Hexcrafter at the moment because I feel like flying a lot and laying down debuffs. But I know I won't be as good at critting or early shutdowns.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Your angry that we are calling the Kensai Magus good?

Nothing I can do about that, but the facts are true. Kensai DO get better AC, I've proven that. Kensai has the potential to do more damage too. Spell recall is not essential at all, I've played 5 magi, 3 of which with archetypes and I didn't miss spell recall that much (Sure, more spells, at the cost of arcane pool). Yes, hexcrafters can get pearls of power too, we are using that as a "money can fix that" argument. Yes, they can also get a wand of mage armor... but it doesn't help them like it helps the magus, so that's a -very- valid argument.

Builds looking the same? Not really, they are as varied as as any other magus. Not sure if you've looked at my guide, but you have unique mechanics that allow the Kensai to do things that others simply don't have the resources for. Especially getting intelligence to number of AoO. Hence, Kensai do great with frostbite builds, typical shocking grasp builds, trip builds, crit fishing builds (even more so than any other magus), builds centered around tanking, and builds using bodyguard, just to name a few.

I can't believe so many people think that the kensai is bad. Where would you place the Kensai? Better than a rogue? Fighter? Ranger or barbarian? On par with the alchemist? I'd even reckon that the Kensai ranks up there with some of the teir 1 classes.

Here's the rundown of the Kensai:
Damaged based Gish class
1. The best initiative in the game (Beats the inquisiter, because the inquisiter doesn't get an auto 20. And a Kensai's int score should surpass 30, meaning that even the infamous divination wizard is left behind) Also acts in the surprise round, always.
2. The largest cap on AoO's in the game (besides mythic rules)
3. The best (if not, among the best) for crit fishing builds, on account of being able to increase the critical multiplier from a 2 to a 4 (who else can?), and having an extremely good chance of confirming criticals to automatically confirming criticals. Not to mention that they can place keen on their weapon as a class feature with little effort.
4. And finally, Fantastic touch AC, with poor to moderate Flat-footed AC. (Very poor being a wizard).

This is all in addition to the magus spell list, spell combat, and spell strike.

That's why people like the Kensai. They are the BEST at several game elements (I would like the correction if I'm wrong, so that I don't misinform readers of my guide).

I can't speak so much for the Hexcrafter, but what can they do better than any other class? All I can think of is debuff, due to using the frostbite build along with bestow curse and evil eye. Am I missing anything?

Don't get me wrong, I believe the hexcrafter archetype is good. They have some good strengths. They certainly have spell like effects right up their alley. I do believe the Kensai is better.

[Paulicus]

I made a bladebound hexcrafter for PFS. I liked the idea of making a magus more focused on attacking while buffing/debuffing (shield, grease, colorspray, etc.). I mainly added hexcrafter to get Bestow Curse, just because it's such a fun spell! Getting Brand is nice, and I expect to get some decent use out of Ill Omen once I get past level 5.

I grabbed the flight hex, since the offensive hexes can't be used with magus abilities. If I find myself at a loss for which arcana to take, I might pick up another hex instead. Versatility!

[master_marshmallow]

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

Your angry that we are calling the Kensai Magus good?

Nothing I can do about that, but the facts are true. Kensai DO get better AC, I've proven that. Kensai has the potential to do more damage too. Spell recall is not essential at all, I've played 5 magi, 3 of which with archetypes and I didn't miss spell recall that much (Sure, more spells, at the cost of arcane pool). Yes, hexcrafters can get pearls of power too, we are using that as a "money can fix that" argument. Yes, they can also get a wand of mage armor... but it doesn't help them like it helps the magus, so that's a -very- valid argument.

Builds looking the same? Not really, they are as varied as as any other magus. Not sure if you've looked at my guide, but you have unique mechanics that allow the Kensai to do things that others simply don't have the resources for. Especially getting intelligence to number of AoO. Hence, Kensai do great with frostbite builds, typical shocking grasp builds, trip builds, crit fishing builds (even more so than any other magus), builds centered around tanking, and builds using bodyguard, just to name a few.

I can't believe so many people think that the kensai is bad. Where would you place the Kensai? Better than a rogue? Fighter? Ranger or barbarian? On par with the alchemist? I'd even reckon that the Kensai ranks up there with some of the teir 1 classes.

Here's the rundown of the Kensai:
Damaged based Gish class
1. The best initiative in the game (Beats the inquisiter, because the inquisiter doesn't get an auto 20. And a Kensai's int score should surpass 30, meaning that even the infamous divination wizard is left behind) Also acts in the surprise round, always.
2. The largest cap on AoO's in the game (besides mythic rules)
3. The best (if not, among the best) for crit fishing builds, on account of being able to increase the critical multiplier from a 2 to a 4 (who else can?), and having an extremely good chance of confirming criticals to automatically confirming criticals. Not to mention that they can...

If you wanna make a case for the kensai being a decent archetype sure, I'm sold.

But he does not get better AC, it is comparable at best.

How many AOOs you actually get to utilize in a game is dependent on game style I guess, but possibly okay.

Initiative is something I can agree on to a point.

I just don't find it absolutely better than the hexcrafter, if anything they are equal in a completely different area.

Not that I like to make quotes from pop culture too often but as said by Harvey Specter in AMC's Suits:
"You're still in the majors, just playing a different sport."

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

master_marshmallow wrote:

But he does not get better AC, it is comparable at best.

I am completely convinced that the kensai -does- get better, or at least equivalent, AC at every level except for level 1.

I already posted the math behind it, but if you feel I messed up or left anything out at any point, let me know.

Strength Based Calculations:

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

These calculations are assuming everything is the same except for armor. Both magi's have access to shield wands/spells, polymorph abilities, armor rings and amulets, etc... The only differences is the Kensai's limited armor choice and addition of intelligence to his AC. Having a Dexterity Modifier of 0 is most favorable to the Hexcrafter, since he gets armor and the Kensai does not.

Level 1
Hexcrafter Chain Shirt = 4 AC
Kensai +1 intelligence = 1 AC

Level 7
Hexcrafter +5 chainmail = 11 AC
Kensai +7 from intelligence, +4 mage armor = 11 AC

They break even even with the hexcrafter spending alot more on the AC.

Level 13
Hexcrafter +5 Full Plate = 14 AC
Kensai +8 from intelligence, +6 from +5 silken ceremonial = 14 AC

Dexterity Based Calculations:

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

Same as above, but assuming dexterity modifier of +3 at level 1, +5 at level 7, and +6 at level 13.

Level 1
Hexcrafter Chain Shirt + 3 dex = 7 AC
Kensai +1 intelligence +3 dex = 4 AC

Level 7
Hexcrafter +5 Lamellar + 3 dex (hit max dex bonus) = 14 AC
Kensai +7 from intelligence, +4 mage armor + 5 dex = 16 AC

They break even even with the hexcrafter spending alot more on the AC.

Level 13
Hexcrafter +5 Full Plate + 1 dex (hit max dex) = 15 AC
Kensai +8 from intelligence, +6 from +5 silken ceremonial, + 6 dex = 20 AC

If further evidence is needed, it can be generated.

The only ground to say here is that the Kensai's AC is almost all touch AC, and is lost while flat footed. But as for sheer quantity, the Kensai almost always has the potential to have more AC.

EDIT: I apologize, but I'm on a bit of a crusade to try to prove to everyone that Kensai gets more AC than most other Magi archetypes.

[master_marshmallow]

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

master_marshmallow wrote:

But he does not get better AC, it is comparable at best.

I am completely convinced that the kensai -does- get better, or at least equivalent, AC at every level except for level 1.

I already posted the math behind it, but if you feel I messed up or left anything out at any point, let me know.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

If further evidence is needed, it can be generated.

The only ground to say here is that the Kensai's AC is almost all touch AC, and is lost while flat footed. But as for sheer quantity, the Kensai almost always has the potential to...

Except he doesn't, he gets the same AC, less he invest more in INt and DEC than any other magus.

Granted for DD builds sure, he can achieve this, but for anyone who doesn't dig the scimitar, then his AC lags.

[Kiinyan]

Yeesh can we get one thread asking for advice on what to build without somebody telling another person they're wrong?

My belief: Hexcrafter is very versatile in debuffing. Kensai has slightly more martial output. However, build/optimization isn't everything. maybe you want a theme? An unarmored warrior? Who knows.

AC: Congratulations, Maguses of all shapes and sizes get stupidly high ACs, complemented by the ability to full attack and put up Shield, Displacement, Mirror Image. Shall I tell you about the PC in my campaign that had all the AC tricks, plus crane style (thank goodness for the nerf).

Arguably, the Kensai could hypothetically with high Dex/Int investment get a higher AC than the Hexcrafter. BUT on the other hand with debuffing the Hexcrafter could have higher theoretical AC by nerfing the opponent's attack bonuses.

Also, I never thought of it before, but I love the Bodyguard build presented earlier. It sounds really cool, pretty dang strong, and give the Kensai more than just hitting things hard.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

master_marshmallow wrote:

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

master_marshmallow wrote:

But he does not get better AC, it is comparable at best.

I am completely convinced that the kensai -does- get better, or at least equivalent, AC at every level except for level 1.

I already posted the math behind it, but if you feel I messed up or left anything out at any point, let me know.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

If further evidence is needed, it can be generated.

The only ground to say here is that the Kensai's AC is almost all touch AC, and is lost while flat footed. But as for sheer quantity, the Kensai almost always has the potential to...

Except he doesn't, he gets the same AC, less he invest more in INt and DEC than any other magus.

Granted for DD builds sure, he can achieve this, but for anyone who doesn't dig the scimitar, then his AC lags.

Did I not just show that his AC is the same, if not better, in every case other than level 1? How does his AC "lag"? :P But also keep in mind that these were best case scenarios for the Hexcrafter. Who spends 25 000 on armor by level 7? What would the AC's look like at levels 6 and 12?

[master_marshmallow]

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

master_marshmallow wrote:

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

master_marshmallow wrote:

But he does not get better AC, it is comparable at best.

I am completely convinced that the kensai -does- get better, or at least equivalent, AC at every level except for level 1.

I already posted the math behind it, but if you feel I messed up or left anything out at any point, let me know.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

If further evidence is needed, it can be generated.

The only ground to say here is that the Kensai's AC is almost all touch AC, and is lost while flat footed. But as for sheer quantity, the Kensai almost always has the potential to...

Except he doesn't, he gets the same AC, less he invest more in INt and DEC than any other magus.

Granted for DD builds sure, he can achieve this, but for anyone who doesn't dig the scimitar, then his AC lags.

Did I not just show that his AC is the same, if not better, in every case other than level 1? How does his AC "lag"? :P But also keep in mind that these were best case scenarios for the Hexcrafter. Who spends 25 000 on armor by level 7? What would the AC's look like at levels 6 and 12?

IDK why I said AC, I meant damage.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Agile enchantment? There are other options.

[master_marshmallow]

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

Agile enchantment? There are other options.

But all of those options require you to go DEX based.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Not really, a strength based Kensai has lower AC, but is still comparable to a hexcrafter with armor. They lag behind at first, but catch up to a typical magus around level 8.