New Alchemy Manual book question

[neferphras]

so first.... trip arrows rock... loving that

but Page 20 address other ammunition and its says flat out that Alchemical ingredients can not be be imbued to fire arms ammunition. Which, i always thought made sense, you are after all lighting the ammo on FIRE before using it, it would burn off anything you put on it.

SO... the question is, does this new book invalidate the somewhat popular Grenadier Alchemist + gunslinger build. I think... it does. Which will hurt a fair amount of players out there.

I am not trying to be mean or anything, I just think this will come up soon and I wanted to put the question out there to get a ruling as to what to do with such characters. Let them switch the levels to something else (zen archer, alchemist grenadier is NOT BAD!!), i know of at least 3 PFS characters out there that this will break.

[anthonydido]

I'm assuming this is in relation to Pathfinder Society right? If so, you already couldn't add alchemical stuff (namely blanches) to gun ammunition so nothing changed.

Here is a link to Mike Brock saying such.

If that's not the issue then what is it this combination of classes does that gets negated? I'm not familiar with this combo.

[neferphras]

yeah this is not about blanches
the Grenadier Archetype lets you apply alchemic weapons to ammuntion

At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question.

[anthonydido]

Ah, yes. What is the exact wording from the Alchemy Manual?

[neferphras]

Alchemical ingredients can not be be imbued to fire arms ammunition.

it uses the word Imbued, where as Grendier uses infuse... Imbue... infuse same difference really.

[SlimGauge]

Isn't this a case of the specific (the Archetype's special ability) overriding the general (the Alchemy Manual's rule) ?

Grenadier Archetype wrote:

Alchemical Weapon (Su)

At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action.

Alchemy Manual wrote:

Other Types of Ammunition: While Kyonin archers prefer alchemical arrows to other missile weapons, characters can infuse other ammunition and thrown weapons that deal piercing damage (such as crossbow bolts, darts, and shuriken) with alchemical effects.

Aside from differing base statistics, these alternative types of alchemical ammunition have effects identical to the alchemical arrows listed here. However, firearm ammunition can’t be imbued with alchemical ingredients, nor can ammunition types that don’t deal piercing damage.

[anthonydido]

I would think so too SlimGauge.

[thebluecanary]

SlimGauge wrote:

Isn't this a case of the specific (the Archetype's special ability) overriding the general (the Alchemy Manual's rule) ?

You are correct. A specific rule always over writes a general rule. This means that the Grenadier can do it, but no one else can.

[reyyvin]

SlimGauge wrote:

Isn't this a case of the specific (the Archetype's special ability) overriding the general (the Alchemy Manual's rule) ?

Grenadier Archetype wrote:

Alchemical Weapon (Su)

At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action.

Alchemy Manual wrote:

Other Types of Ammunition: While Kyonin archers prefer alchemical arrows to other missile weapons, characters can infuse other ammunition and thrown weapons that deal piercing damage (such as crossbow bolts, darts, and shuriken) with alchemical effects.

Aside from differing base statistics, these alternative types of alchemical ammunition have effects identical to the alchemical arrows listed here. However, firearm ammunition can’t be imbued with alchemical ingredients, nor can ammunition types that don’t deal piercing damage.

emphasis mine

This is correct, but for the wrong reason. The entry in the Alchemy Manual applies specifically to alchemical ammunition; these are items attached to an arrow/bolt/blowgun dart/other piercing ammunition. Slim is correct that it does not apply to Grenadiers, as they use "alchemical liquid or powder" which do not deal piercing damage. Firearm bullets are mentioned because they deal piercing damage, and they obviously don't want to include them. Sling bullets/bolas/throwing axes, etc, are not mentioned because they don't deal piercing damage (and obviously also aren't allowed to use these rules)

hmm... grenades inflict piercing damage... they're throwing weapons... Durable Grenades! RAW it works, but...