charging lanes


Rules Questions


I want to charge straight, but during the charge move over into another lane as so.

p= player x= spaces t= target the player wishes to attack A= an ally D= destination

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As above, it's technically a straight line, but it's also not.

If that's possible, then I would like to know if this is legal.

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The example is just quickly made, but it's the same method that during the charge you would take a minor change into a different lane, but it would matter to avoid the allies blocking your way kinda

Grand Lodge

P-D is not a legal charge against T, since A in the first diagram or the equivalent square in the second can be reached without a diagonal movement and is therefore closer.

If T was one square to the west, so that D was the correct charge destination, you'd get some variation between GMs on the first diagram. The second is definitely not allowed since the northernmost A directly blocks the charge line.


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There has been a debate regarding this for a long time. There are two possible interpretations.

A) A legal charge is where you draw a line from your square to the target creature's square and must proceed along that line.

B) A legal charge is where you draw a line from your square to any square from which you can attack the target.

"A" makes it so that Ride-by Attack is impossible because you cannot change direction in a charge and you cannot move through the target's square.

SKR has previously stated (when he was a Developer) that B is the correct answer but that is not part of a FAQ or Errata.

Of course, that brings up the definition of "closest space" and, for those that advocate "B", that means that you cannot charge past a creature and attack them from behind. You must attack them from the closest space along the path.

In short, yes, it is legal but I suggest checking with your GM and if he goes with "A" ask how Ride-by Attack works. That usually illustrates the flaw in "A".

Sovereign Court

Charging requires you to go in a straight line to the nearest square from which you can attack.

"Nearest" isn't strictly defined. There are two interpretations floating around; one is Starglim, that you use the geometrically shortest line. Measuring from the center of your starting square to the center of any destinations from which you can attack, you must pick the destination with the shortest line. This makes your first example illegal, because the strict vertical line is the geometrically shortest line, but that square is already occupied.

The other interpretation is that you must go in a traight line to the destination with the lowest movement cost. Under this interpretation, more than one square can be tied for lowest movement cost, so you get a choice. This interpretation would make your first example a legal move.

If you consult the templates for line spells, you'll see that a straight line doesn't have to be precisely vertical or horizontal, but that any diagonal line changes lines neatly; halfway through if changing one lane, at 1/3rd and 2/3rd if changing 2 lanes, and at 1/4th, 2/4th and 3/4th if changing 3 lanes. That means your second example is legal under the shortest-distance interpretation of "nearest".


We generally play it in line with SKR's statement. A destination's distance is measured in feet / 5. So a single diagonal step doesn't change the distance.

Now, if you were trying to arrive in a square on T's left side so A can flank, you wouldn't be able to since that would require two diagonals.

Unfortunately, as pointed out, strictest interpretation says you cannot do this.

Liberty's Edge

PRD wrote:

Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.

Not the "shortest route" or "the closest space", but "the closest space from which you can attack the opponent."

So the requirement are, in order:
1) a square from which you can attack an opponent, so a square in which you can enter, as you can't attack from a square occupied by someone;
2) the closest square from your starting point that satisfy 1).

In the first example you made A is not a valid square as you can't attack from it, so D is the closest square from which you can attack and that satisfy both conditions.

Then there is the straight line question.
The squares are a construct we use to regulate movement. Our character aren't chess pieces.
If the square grid was rotated slightly your move would be a straight line of squares and it would end in the closest square from which you can attack?
If the reply is yes, you can charge.
I think that that is both RAI and RAW as I have seen a few post by developers stating that the grid is there to help regulate the movement, not to limit your movement.


I would love to see a greater clarification on how exactly to adjudicate which squares are legal and aren't legal for charges.

This has always been less than ideally clear, and I feel that I sometimes do not run it consistently. Not on purpose, but simply because the rules aren't as clear as I would like them to be.


Yeah, things like: closest movement wise or closest in straight line geometric measurement. Because closet movement may not be closest straight line because of difficult terrain. Can I jump over obstacles while charging? Etc. It can't all be answered in the rules, since the variations are vast in number, but something a bit more detailed may not be a bad idea.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Rapanuii wrote:

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Neither are legal because you your lines would likely pass through A.

The diagonal is legal if A didn't exist.

This is also legal.

Quote:

XXP

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DXA
XTX


Gauss wrote:

A) A legal charge is where you draw a line from your square to the target creature's square and must proceed along that line.

B) A legal charge is where you draw a line from your square to any square from which you can attack the target.

SKR has previously stated (when he was a Developer) that B is the correct answer but that is not part of a FAQ or Errata.

I always run it as b. I've played with a lot of GMs in pfs and have seen it ruled both ways.

outside of pfs I use a hex grid because it's just better for most problems a square grid causes.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
outside of pfs I use a hex grid because it's just better for most problems a square grid causes.

How do you deal with flanking on a Hex grid?


B is how I have always run it.

Personally I prefer 4th edition's rules for charge; each square moved must be closer to the target. It still results in fairly straight lines, but eliminates nitpicking arguments like this.


I read for pf that it's the closest square which you can attack, and how it doesn't talk about straight lines, but direct path. I had a brief disagreement during a pfs game, but I said I'll move on from it until we can both review it and discuss it for the future.

I'm not understanding James' post on why it would be affected by a when you'd change lanes before you got into the space of a.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Rapanuii wrote:
I'm not understanding James' post on why it would be affected by a when you'd change lanes before you got into the space of a.
Core wrote:
If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.

Pick any corner, say your bottom right. Drag a line to your ending square's bottom right. In this case that line will clip the edge of the square A is in. You can't charge.


Honestly, I didn't read every reply because I was excited about the question.

What I've started doing in my game is using the "spell template" on page 215 of the CRB for 30 foot lines(I adjust it for distance - to what makes sense but reproducing the pattern).

I feel like it is a good template for straight lines and I let my players use that to charge.


James Risner wrote:
Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
outside of pfs I use a hex grid because it's just better for most problems a square grid causes.

How do you deal with flanking on a Hex grid?

It's actually slightly easier because there are only 6 hexes as opposed to 8 surrounding squares. It also helps with silly things like reach weapons only attacking 4 squares, and from what I've seen makes adjacent based feats (cleave in particular) move up from pretty bad to pretty good.

The only down fall of hexes is you get funky stuff happening in rooms sometimes. I find everything else is better though, and I'd rather deal with odd corners than reach weapons being dumb to use.

Liberty's Edge

James' observation about clipping the ally's square is correct. The 3.5 PHB had a diagram showing it clearly. The language is slightly different, but not in a material way. That said, it is commonly ignored or people are unaware of it, particularly when the corner is clipped by a small amount.

Changing lanes doesn't figure into it.


I don't understand how this negates the clear line of sight or hampers movement like an obstacle. If this isn't relevant, then please inform me, but right now this does...
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E=Enemy X=Spaces P=Player D=Destination

XXX
XPE
XED

Like, normal movement can move in between squares of enemies and not count as going into their spaces. One can't imagine that during the charge they moved over before getting to the enemy or ally that was in the square, or even the object in the way, right? The action doesn't seem to enforce that you are on such a perfectly straight course that this should be an issue, but rather you make the shortest route you can that is going forward to the target.

what I think you're considering wrote:
If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge.

I'm having a bad day and perhaps someone could assist me in finding normal tactical(?) movement rules on where it states that you can't move through specific squares during combat or otherwise, and then perhaps it can be seen side by side with these rules?

EDIT: added "---" things so my diagram doesn't get spaced out oddly due to avatars. My avatar is effin' sweet. Skull mask and stuff. AWESOME!

Shadow Lodge

here

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