Any chance of nerfing tower shield specialist to get rid of 40+ Acs?


Homebrew and House Rules

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The Exchange

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ok, I made my save for almost 18 hours... but now it looks like I missed it - please excuse the rant...

This topinc is not new. (not to detract from the OP, as I am sure they are upset about it, I just think they are directing thier upset at the wrong target.)

Character Types don't kill players fun....Players kill (other) players fun (and sometimes their own).

If we have someone who is a jerk and give him an Iconic/Generic PC, he is still a jerk. He can still ruin everyones day. (and yes, sometimes we can all be a "jerk"). If everyone at the table were to pass thier PCs one player to the left... we would still get jerk players being a jerk. He'd just be doing it with someone elses PC. And most likely complaining about it. And the food/weather/noise/etc.

Let's all try to NOT be that jerk player. Does this mean we should quit building (yeah, I'm using a hot button term) Min/Maxed (Optimized) PC's? nope. Give a Min/Max PC to a great player that is fun to play with an you know what? everyone at the table has a fun time. Give a Sub-Par PC to a Jerk, and he'll find a way to reduce the fun at the table... that's part of being a jerk. (and I repeat, we all have a little of that jerk in us, really we do...).

SO, let's all play nice together. Have fun. Be someone everyone at your table enjoys playing a game with.

Please.

And you know what? in the end we'll all have fun - and that's what it's all about right?
(end of rant)

Liberty's Edge

Normally I would agree with Nosig.

But the thing he's missing is, the nicest guy in the world who's a ton of fun, but roflstomps everything or seems to have that build that makes everyone else's character insignificant in most situations is still not going to be fun to play with.

I built a trip master and my friend a locksmith. But somehow another friend who is fun to play with, is both a better tripper and locksmith.

Not a fun character to play with.


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Andrew Christian wrote:
But the thing he's missing is, the nicest guy in the world who's a ton of fun, but roflstomps everything or seems to have that build that makes everyone else's character insignificant in most situations is still not going to be fun to play with.

Playing a turtle is about the opposite of roflstomping anything. Ridiculously high AC combined with terrible offence is a recipe for being ignored.

The Exchange

andreww wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
But the thing he's missing is, the nicest guy in the world who's a ton of fun, but roflstomps everything or seems to have that build that makes everyone else's character insignificant in most situations is still not going to be fun to play with.
Playing a turtle is about the opposite of roflstomping anything. Ridiculously high AC combined with terrible offence is a recipe for being ignored.

This subject has been covered in many threads before... here's a link to some of my comments in one....

Linky thing.


Lormyr wrote:

Human Oracle [Nature] 9

Str 14, Dex 7, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 24
Relevant traits: fate's favored
Relevant feats: heavy armor proficiency
Relevant stuff: headband of cha +4, dusty rose ioun stone, jingasa, cloak of resistance +3, full plate, heavy steel shield, rod of lesser extend metamagic x3
barkskin, shield of faith, magic vestment on shield and armor
AC 42, touch 23, flat-footed 32

I might read this wrong, but an Oracle of Lore's Sidestep Secret is still hampered by the "maximum dexterity" stat of armor, so I don't think he'll be able to get that high an AC in the way here portrayed.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Andrew Christian wrote:

I built a trip master and my friend a locksmith. But somehow another friend who is fun to play with, is both a better tripper and locksmith.

Not a fun character to play with.

Yeah, I have one character who fights in melee and also has a little bit of skills and some support casting. But melee-focused PCs always seem to do more damage, tanking-focused PCs always seem to have higher AC, face guys always seem to be able to get higher Diplomacy, INT-based casters always seem to out-Knowledge him, and other casters always seem to have higher save DCs.

Which explains why I never have fun playing Thomas the Tiefling Hero.

Liberty's Edge

andreww wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
But the thing he's missing is, the nicest guy in the world who's a ton of fun, but roflstomps everything or seems to have that build that makes everyone else's character insignificant in most situations is still not going to be fun to play with.
Playing a turtle is about the opposite of roflstomping anything. Ridiculously high AC combined with terrible offence is a recipe for being ignored.

But when the GM ignores the turtle after the first round with intelligent bad guys, isn't that adversely affecting others too?

The Exchange

Jiggy wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

I built a trip master and my friend a locksmith. But somehow another friend who is fun to play with, is both a better tripper and locksmith.

Not a fun character to play with.

Yeah, I have one character who fights in melee and also has a little bit of skills and some support casting. But melee-focused PCs always seem to do more damage, tanking-focused PCs always seem to have higher AC, face guys always seem to be able to get higher Diplomacy, INT-based casters always seem to out-Knowledge him, and other casters always seem to have higher save DCs.

Which explains why I never have fun playing Thomas the Tiefling Hero.

I'm sorry Jiggy... I think I missed something here. Was this sarcasm?


Derwalt wrote:
Lormyr wrote:

Human Oracle [Nature] 9

Str 14, Dex 7, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 24
Relevant traits: fate's favored
Relevant feats: heavy armor proficiency
Relevant stuff: headband of cha +4, dusty rose ioun stone, jingasa, cloak of resistance +3, full plate, heavy steel shield, rod of lesser extend metamagic x3
barkskin, shield of faith, magic vestment on shield and armor
AC 42, touch 23, flat-footed 32
I might read this wrong, but an Oracle of Lore's Sidestep Secret is still hampered by the "maximum dexterity" stat of armor, so I don't think he'll be able to get that high an AC in the way here portrayed.

You are not wrong, this build does not do what it claims to do.

Sovereign Court

Please note that mind buttressing is not PFS legal, thankfully.

And just like in the Crane Wing debate, please don't forget that if you can't hit the dude, go punch someone else. This is not a hard concept.

It really frustrates me when people come out and talk about how x build need to be eliminated because its hard to deal with or conceptually weird. Expand your boundaries and learn how to deal with it as a GM.

Also, consider trying Sunder. It's a nice way to neutralize a armor based AC tank (not so good for monks).

And if you run into this situation:

Quote:
Not sure exactly what feat the one person was using but could actually give +10 ac to someone adjacent

It's time for an audit to see exactly how the character works.

Lantern Lodge

Derwalt wrote:
I might read this wrong, but an Oracle of Lore's Sidestep Secret is still hampered by the "maximum dexterity" stat of armor, so I don't think he'll be able to get that high an AC in the way here portrayed.

You haven't read it wrong bud. The Nature's Whisper issue is both debatable and a loophole that needs closed with a little addition of comment on armor and max dex in a FAQ. As it stands, by RAW, there are folks who read it as not limited by Dexterity.

Argument:

FAQ said wrote:

Oracle: Does an oracle of lore with the sidestep secret (page 50) revelation use her Charisma to calculate her CMD instead of her Dexterity? If she is flat-footed, does she lose her Charisma bonus to AC?

An oracle of lore with the sidestep secret revelation uses her Dexterity to calculate her CMD since no provision is made in the text to use her Charisma for that statistic. She does, however, lose her Charisma bonus to AC whenever she is flat-footed, since her Charisma modifier is being used in place of her Dexterity modifier.

Bolded mine.

Since that FAQ gives us pretty solid precedent to employ only what is specifically written when using that ability, there are some like myself who believe that approach should apply to the other similar revelations. You will find that the Cha instead of Dex to AC revelations from both Lore and Lunar mysteries specifically mention armor restriction, while the Nature version does not.

Now that said, I would definitely like to see that changed to state an armor restriction as well. But as it stands, it says what it says.

You would do well to expect table variation on that one though. Most of the people in my area of Ohio run a pretty unbiased RAW, even when we think the issue is broken, just to maintain fairness across the board. On the boards alone we've seen enough examples of other GMs using RAW when it is an issue that hampers the player, but applying extended common sense or logic when it would otherwise help the player.

Example in line with the above before it made it to FAQ:

If you have the sidestep secret replacing Dex for your AC calculations, it would stand to reason by logic/common sense that your Cha stat should also replace CMD, right? Even before that was FAQ'd in, there was plenty of GMs who would say something along the lines of "sorry, that's not what it says".

That same GM might also say Nature's Whispers is capped by your armors max dex, even though it does not say it, because it does seem logical that it should be capped.

Rogue Eidolon and I had a good back and forth about it in the shaman ACG thread if you care to dig it up to see more thoughts on the subject.


Acedio wrote:

It really frustrates me when people come out and talk about how x build need to ish) toe eliminated because its hard to deal with or conceptually weird. Expand your boundaries and learn how to deal with it as a GM.

Also, consider trying Sunder. It's a nice way to neutralize a armor based AC tank (not so good for monks).

To be fair, it's very difficult to deal with certain builds in pfs, because we have no resources to do so.

gunslinger fighting giants, he's going to hit every hit as hard as a fighter.

pouncing eidilon, highly unlikely an enemy will have banish, much less planar binding.

Shadowdancer, we'll if he sends that shadow ahead there's a good chance it's going to wipe out half of encounters.

Min max witch with sleep hex meets the boss, whose alone...well bbeg is done.

Now I don't believe this particular build equates to any of those, and all these things are easy(ish) to deal with in a home game, they are likely nearly impossible to deal with in pfs.

Sovereign Court

Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
Stuff.

And the concise response to all of those things is "just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should." Entirely behavioral, and can be handled on a case by case basis if they're going overboard. No need to go on a nerfing crusade.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

nosig wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

I built a trip master and my friend a locksmith. But somehow another friend who is fun to play with, is both a better tripper and locksmith.

Not a fun character to play with.

Yeah, I have one character who fights in melee and also has a little bit of skills and some support casting. But melee-focused PCs always seem to do more damage, tanking-focused PCs always seem to have higher AC, face guys always seem to be able to get higher Diplomacy, INT-based casters always seem to out-Knowledge him, and other casters always seem to have higher save DCs.

Which explains why I never have fun playing Thomas the Tiefling Hero.

I'm sorry Jiggy... I think I missed something here. Was this sarcasm?

Yes. Thomas the Tiefling Hero is my absolute favorite character, despite always being outshone by anyone remotely specialized in any of the things he does.


Acedio wrote:
Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
Stuff.
And the concise response to all of those things is "just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should." Entirely behavioral, and can be handled on a case by case basis if they're going overboard. No need to go on a nerfing crusade.

And who's to tell you your ac is too high?

Its not like there aren't a lot of other ways to kill someone. Most times I've been put at risk of death at high level wasn't from something swinging at me, it was from a spell.

Sovereign Court

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Acedio wrote:
Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
Stuff.
And the concise response to all of those things is "just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should." Entirely behavioral, and can be handled on a case by case basis if they're going overboard. No need to go on a nerfing crusade.

And who's to tell you your ac is too high?

Its not like there aren't a lot of other ways to kill someone. Most times I've been put at risk of death at high level wasn't from something swinging at me, it was from a spell.

We don't disagree. If you can't hit somebody, go punch someone else. Sunder their armor. Toss a spell with a will save at them. Create pit. Black tentacles. The list goes on. There are lots of ways to deal with high AC builds.

The post you quoted was for builds that don't really have a response.

Scarab Sages

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So just for clarification this character is doing about 1d8+1 damage if they can even hit. Why is this even a concern? I have a level 3 tower shield specialist who is going a little less aggressively with the defense feats so he can at least power attack. Why would a villain even bother to single out a non-damaging opponent that they can't hit?


Lormyr: Either I'm confused, or you might not have read the errataed APG (or something like that?). I quote: "Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity.", Advanced Players Guide, page 50.

Greg: If he has the agile enchant and Piranha Strike, he can actually be doing more like 1d8+13 dmg - still not that big a deal though.


Gah - it's me who is confused! You're talking about Nature's Whisper! I'm a stupid man's idiot :)

Hmm... That one has the line; "Any condition that would cause you to lose your Dexterity modifier to your Armor Class instead causes you to lose your Charisma modifier to your Armor Class." although I can see that that one is open for interpretation...

Lantern Lodge

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Don't sweat it Derwalt - there's a lot to keep track of around here. But yes, nature's whisper is the ability I am speaking of, not sidestep secret or prophetic armor. I can't say if the absence of the max dex/armor line was intentionally or not, but my best guess is that is was simply an oversight.

But then again, Paizo constantly surprises me with what they consider balanced or working as intended or not (my latest areas of bafflement are the Crane Wing nerf and spell-like abilities allowing spellcasting qualification), so who knows?


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Acedio wrote:
Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
Stuff.
And the concise response to all of those things is "just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should." Entirely behavioral, and can be handled on a case by case basis if they're going overboard. No need to go on a nerfing crusade.

This is true. I am already finding at 4th level that I will probably need to tone down my new heal focused oracle paladin. It's getting to the point where if I set my mind to it, nobody dies or even gets severely hurt when that character is present. And I have to say that is far more game disruptive than a guy who's chief talent is imitating a rock.

-j


Lormyr wrote:


Halfling Monk [Qinggong] 9
Str 5, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 18, Cha 9
Relevant traits: defensive strategist, fate's favored
Relevant feats: cautious fighter, combat expertise, crane style, dodge
Relevant stuff: agile amulet of mighty fists, belt of dex +4, headband of wis +2, dusty rose ioun stone, jingasa, ring of protection +2, cloak of resistance +2, wand of mage armor
barkskin from qinggong
AC 47, touch 41, flat-footed 30...and that's not even taking into considering ki dodge and/or shield wand from UMD and/or cracked vibrant purple ioun stone

Give this guy some mist mail for an extra 20% miss chance!


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Andrew Christian wrote:
andreww wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
But the thing he's missing is, the nicest guy in the world who's a ton of fun, but roflstomps everything or seems to have that build that makes everyone else's character insignificant in most situations is still not going to be fun to play with.
Playing a turtle is about the opposite of roflstomping anything. Ridiculously high AC combined with terrible offence is a recipe for being ignored.
But when the GM ignores the turtle after the first round with intelligent bad guys, isn't that adversely affecting others too?

So yeah, you want to move this thing from "outshines" to "adversely affects?" You sure that's where you want it? I don't want to move it again.

Grand Lodge

Nefreet wrote:
Thomas Graham wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out how to afford Mithril Plate..that ain't cheap.

I saved up enough cash for two of my characters to grab Adamantine Plate (even more expensive) by GMing a few 7-11 scenarios for each of them. That's ~4k/pop if you're 7-8, ~6k if you're level 9, and ~8k if you're 10-11.

They skip a level and return with a nice chunk of DR.

I understand people want to actually play their characters, but if you're a GM you're going to have to run those scenarios sometime. If you space them out amongst your characters you get ample play time and phat lewts.

AND enchant it to +2 or +4 (depending on the version of the story) AS WELL as a similar tower shield, HIGH Dex Belt AND an Agile Weapon?

Shadow Lodge

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I started toning down my Stonelord almost immediately after hitting 4th lvl. There's always a chance that I'll be only melee character in a group and ac 32, dr 3 and LoH (on level 6) is a great way to get the rest of the party killed. I guess it's always a gamble, playing a tank that is.
You need to be a mountain of metal and meat but still stay a juicy target so that the foes won't just bypass you. I'll be keeping the armor class at 20+lvl or so. Good, but not insurmountable.

Liberty's Edge

Jiggy wrote:
nosig wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

I built a trip master and my friend a locksmith. But somehow another friend who is fun to play with, is both a better tripper and locksmith.

Not a fun character to play with.

Yeah, I have one character who fights in melee and also has a little bit of skills and some support casting. But melee-focused PCs always seem to do more damage, tanking-focused PCs always seem to have higher AC, face guys always seem to be able to get higher Diplomacy, INT-based casters always seem to out-Knowledge him, and other casters always seem to have higher save DCs.

Which explains why I never have fun playing Thomas the Tiefling Hero.

I'm sorry Jiggy... I think I missed something here. Was this sarcasm?
Yes. Thomas the Tiefling Hero is my absolute favorite character, despite always being outshone by anyone remotely specialized in any of the things he does.

You missed my point entirely.


Muser wrote:

I started toning down my Stonelord almost immediately after hitting 4th lvl. There's always a chance that I'll be only melee character in a group and ac 32, dr 3 and LoH (on level 6) is a great way to get the rest of the party killed. I guess it's always a gamble, playing a tank that is.

You need to be a mountain of metal and meat but still stay a juicy target so that the foes won't just bypass you. I'll be keeping the armor class at 20+lvl or so. Good, but not insurmountable.

This. As there's no "taunt"* mechanic in Pathfinder, you need to otherwise present an actual threat to keep the attention of the enemy.

-j

* - There's a Taunt feat, but it doesn't really do that.

Liberty's Edge

Goal Post Mover wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
andreww wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
But the thing he's missing is, the nicest guy in the world who's a ton of fun, but roflstomps everything or seems to have that build that makes everyone else's character insignificant in most situations is still not going to be fun to play with.
Playing a turtle is about the opposite of roflstomping anything. Ridiculously high AC combined with terrible offence is a recipe for being ignored.
But when the GM ignores the turtle after the first round with intelligent bad guys, isn't that adversely affecting others too?
So yeah, you want to move this thing from "outshines" to "adversely affects?" You sure that's where you want it? I don't want to move it again.

Is there a reason for busting my chops here. I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion and I really haven't said anything particularly controversial or inflammatory.


the problem isn't his aC----it is him giving the AC boost to the entire rest of the party. THe party always moves as one big turtle. In regular pathfinder, I could throw mobs with my own abilities and spells and make them pay for bunching up. In PFS, I am stuck with what the scenario gives me.

I GM a home game also that has a AC tank----but he has learned that mobs quickly ignore him and I can add mobs that damage a party if they bunch up or target will saves or cast acid pit or hungry pit under a group of characters. I don't get to change what PFS scenarios give me.

Anyone who has GMed PFS scenarios knows what I am talking about----BBEG sorcerer or wizard in 20 by 10 room that the barbarians and monks charge, grapple and kill in the first round.

Scarab Sages

Let us break down the information given:

Quote:

12 str

24 dex (10 pt build=16 +2 human, +2 4th and 8th levels)+4 from belt
14 con
10 int
14 wis
8 cha exact spending not important--but 24 dex easily achievable

+4 mithril plate armor
+4 tower shield
+2 ring of protection
wayfinder with clear spindle ioun stone---or use mind buffering armor

Taking the Max DEX of the Armor/Shield, you are still looking at a cap of +2. Even though you are getting a substantial bonus to the Max DEX for the Armor, as Pirate Rob stated earlier, RAW makes it only apply to the Armor, not the shield.

Quote:

feats

shield focus
shield proficiency
greater shield focus
shield specialization
combat reflexes
weapon finesse
agile maneuvers

Out of all these Feats, only Shield Focus and Greater Shield Focus increases the Armor Class. So this results in +2 AC.

Now, taking all of this into consideration, this is what the person actually have.

10 - Base
13 - +4 Mithral Full Plate
10 - +4 Tower Shield
2 - DEX (Max DEX 2)
2 - Ring of Protection +2

37 - Total AC

Now Touch AC (Make note that the Tower Shield Defense ability only applies to the Shield Bonus of the Tower Shield, not the Enhancement Bonus of the Shield, so it only applies +4):

10 - Base
4 - Tower Shield
2 - DEX (Max DEX 2)
2 - Ring of Protection +2

Touch AC - 18

Now let us see the actual total of the gold that has been used:

26,500g - +4 Mithral Full Plate
16,180g - +4 Tower Shield
8,000g - Ring of Protection +2
4,250g - Wayfinder + Clear Spindle Ioun Stone
12,200g - Mantle of the Protector

67,130 - Total

Now looking into this, the character just spent 2/3 of the total income of the cahracter for armor.

Quote:
gives him a 41 ac at 8th level. and 28 for touch ac. They are untouchable. then with the shawl they can give a party member the + 10 ac for 9 minutes and give ac bonuses to everyone around them.

Now with that given, how is the character supplying Armor Class to otehr characters?

Overall, there are a few things that would do this:

Blundering Defense - Gives 1/2 the Fighting Defensively/Total Defense bonus as AC (Luck). This is a Halfing Feat, so since the character in question is a Human, this does not work.

Bodyguard - Uses Aid Another via Combat Reflexes to proved the Aid Another AC bonus. Since the person does not have Combat Reflexes, this does not apply.

Greater Guarding Shield Enchantment - Negates the Enhancement bonus to the Shield to give all adjacent allies the negated bonus. This is a +2 Enchantment, so that would be another 20,000g to the shield.

Saving Shield - As an Immediate Action, give an Adjacent Ally +2 AC (Shield). Does not stack with other shield bonuses.

The Mantle of the Protector is 1/day for the bonus of the Armor and Shield. The 9 minutes is ok, but since it takes the Shoulder Slot, there are some people who might be iffy on dropping their Cloak of Resistance +4 for a limited item. If used in combat, the Attuned character (The Tower Shield Specialist) will have no Armor or Shield Armor Class, dropping the AC to 14.

Make note that if you think something might be up, feel free to audit the character in question. Make sure that all items in the Additional Resources is legal. Moreover, make sure the person has the source material.

Quote:

all they should get is the minus to ac penalty and cover from burst on relex checks

all that metal should make them almost a +10 to hit with shocking grasp

This is what you want to happen, but will not happen since this is PFS. You can not deliberately increase something because it "feels right". That is basically amount to straight cheating. That is like saying a Lighting Bolt will automatically hit someone because they have Potions with some kind of conductive liquid in them. In PFS, this is straight Rules-as-Worded, not Rules-as-Intended. This may be a drawback t what you want, as well as what other people want, but it is how it goes. This makes the Tower Shield Specialist Max Dexterity Bonus only a +2, rather than your intended +7.

I understand that you might be frustrated on how this character is like. I assure you, the main intention of the character is survival, nothing more. Offensive capabilities are at a minimal, and efficiency is heavily reliant on if the enemy is focusing on them.

I have a character much similar to the character in question. At the end of level 12, it was a Halfing Tower Shield Specialist 9/Master of Many Styles 3. The character's name was Vicroy Laughshield Strifetamer, which mainly used supportive bonuses to increase my Allies' AC. I had a base AC of 40/25/37. Fighting Defensively, it was 46/31/37. Total Defense was 49/34/37. CMD was 37, F.Def 46, T.Def 50. Saves 21/14/11.

I understand the frustration of creatures attempting to hit him, as well as creatures simply ignoring him. But due to my ability to give AC bonuses to allies, he is somewhat efficient in battle. The drawback is that I have minimal offensive capabilities. Also, if aimed correctly, you can kill it,

Spoiler:
just like when he died from a Shadowdancer's Shadow

Though if you can explain what the breakdown of the bonuses that the character is giving to other allies, that would further clarify this discussion.

Grand Lodge

Hakken wrote:

the problem isn't his aC----it is him giving the AC boost to the entire rest of the party. THe party always moves as one big turtle. In regular pathfinder, I could throw mobs with my own abilities and spells and make them pay for bunching up. In PFS, I am stuck with what the scenario gives me.

I GM a home game also that has a AC tank----but he has learned that mobs quickly ignore him and I can add mobs that damage a party if they bunch up or target will saves or cast acid pit or hungry pit under a group of characters. I don't get to change what PFS scenarios give me.

Anyone who has GMed PFS scenarios knows what I am talking about----BBEG sorcerer or wizard in 20 by 10 room that the barbarians and monks charge, grapple and kill in the first round.

And that last paragraph has anything to do with an AC tank?

And, at higher tier, which is where 8th level PCs should be playing, even with the best saves in the workd, without a Ring of Evasion or the Evasion ability, fireball formation is called that for a reason...

And, with them being 8th level, they should be seeing potentially 11th level opponents, several spellcasters, and newer scenarios would include some of the save-or-suck stuff, like the Pit spells...

Grand Lodge

Hakken wrote:

the problem isn't his aC----it is him giving the AC boost to the entire rest of the party. THe party always moves as one big turtle. In regular pathfinder, I could throw mobs with my own abilities and spells and make them pay for bunching up. In PFS, I am stuck with what the scenario gives me.

I GM a home game also that has a AC tank----but he has learned that mobs quickly ignore him and I can add mobs that damage a party if they bunch up or target will saves or cast acid pit or hungry pit under a group of characters. I don't get to change what PFS scenarios give me.

Anyone who has GMed PFS scenarios knows what I am talking about----BBEG sorcerer or wizard in 20 by 10 room that the barbarians and monks charge, grapple and kill in the first round.

I admit I am curious as to how he shares SO much of his AC. saving shield and most of the other 'Aid Ac' feats are very limited it scope and if he is using an item(s) it sounds like you need to back check it.

And in high tier stuff bunching up can really screw you. That is how Colossal critters curb stomp parties and Blasphemy comes out to play among other things.


kinevon wrote:
Arkhios wrote:
Indeed, I've already included tower shield training into that -6 ACP. IF I read it correctly, it only reduces Armor Penalty by -3. Could be I'm interpreting it wrong, in which case my Tower Shield Specialist5/Inquisitor2+ would joy :3
Wouldn't the tower shield being made out of darkwood lower the ACP as well?

That's included there too. Alright, let's see if I had the math right:

Tower Shield ACP: -10, reduced by 2 by being darkwood and by 1 being masterwork, leaving ACP at -7
Full plate: ACP -6, Reduced by 2 by being mithral and by 1 being masterwork, leaving ACP at -3.

Tower Shield Training:
At 3rd level, a tower shield specialist gains armor training as normal, but while he employs a tower shield, the armor penalty is reduced by 3 and the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor increases by 2. The benefit increases every four levels thereafter as per standard armor training; if the tower shield specialist is not employing a tower shield, the benefits to armor training revert to the normal bonuses.

Taking note of my emphasises, here's what I get for Total ACP:
Tower Shield ACP -7
Full Plate ACP -3
Subtotal -10
Now, tower shield training reduces the penalty by 3 at 3rd level, but includes only the Armor penalty, and at 7 level improves as standard armor training, hence reducing tower shield's ACP by 1, leaving final ACP at -6.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: also, there's this feat:
Covering Defense (Combat)

You are skilled at protecting yourself and your allies with your shield.

Prerequisites: Shield Focus,base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When you use the total defense action while using a light, heavy, or tower shield, you can provide a cover bonus to AC against all attacks to an adjacent ally your size or smaller. This cover bonus is equal to your shield’s shield bonus and lasts until the beginning of your next turn. your shield does not provide a cover bonus to reflex saves.

So, yes, if the said character had a tower shield with +5 enhancement bonus at level 8 (highly unlikely!) He could be giving that whopping +10 cover bonus to an adjacent ally (note, singular form!), by spending his turn using total defense. But only one ally.

Silver Crusade

Andrew Christian wrote:
andreww wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
But the thing he's missing is, the nicest guy in the world who's a ton of fun, but roflstomps everything or seems to have that build that makes everyone else's character insignificant in most situations is still not going to be fun to play with.
Playing a turtle is about the opposite of roflstomping anything. Ridiculously high AC combined with terrible offence is a recipe for being ignored.
But when the GM ignores the turtle after the first round with intelligent bad guys, isn't that adversely affecting others too?

No. That's the GM playing NPCs well.

Scarab Sages

Arkhios, make note that Covering Defense only applies the Shield's Shield bonus, not the Enhancement bonus to the Shield bonus, so only a +6 due to Shield FFocus/Greater Shield Focus.


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Cao Phen wrote:
Arkhios, make note that Covering Defense only applies the Shield's Shield bonus, not the Enhancement bonus to the Shield bonus, so only a +6 due to Shield FFocus/Greater Shield Focus.

An enhancement bonus to the shield bonus increases the shield bonus. The way you're trying to interpret it enhancement bonuses to armor and shield wouldn't stack on a single player.

Sovereign Court

I'm only curious how he got that much wealth and if he has the fame to purchase said items. Considering that this is a PFS Character......................

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

He played up or ran multiple scenarios, and just bought all his gear for AC. It happens.

==Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

kinevon wrote:
Hakken wrote:

the problem isn't his aC----it is him giving the AC boost to the entire rest of the party. THe party always moves as one big turtle. In regular pathfinder, I could throw mobs with my own abilities and spells and make them pay for bunching up. In PFS, I am stuck with what the scenario gives me.

I GM a home game also that has a AC tank----but he has learned that mobs quickly ignore him and I can add mobs that damage a party if they bunch up or target will saves or cast acid pit or hungry pit under a group of characters. I don't get to change what PFS scenarios give me.

Anyone who has GMed PFS scenarios knows what I am talking about----BBEG sorcerer or wizard in 20 by 10 room that the barbarians and monks charge, grapple and kill in the first round.

And that last paragraph has anything to do with an AC tank?

And, at higher tier, which is where 8th level PCs should be playing, even with the best saves in the workd, without a Ring of Evasion or the Evasion ability, fireball formation is called that for a reason...

And, with them being 8th level, they should be seeing potentially 11th level opponents, several spellcasters, and newer scenarios would include some of the save-or-suck stuff, like the Pit spells...

+1 to suggestion to Fireball the party.

+1 to suggestion to 'Pit' the fighter.

Side note: Acid Pit would be particularly nasty in this case, since it continues to damage, and his armor and shield would need to make saves every rounds to avoid taking damage as well.

Scarab Sages

Artoo wrote:
Cao Phen wrote:
Arkhios, make note that Covering Defense only applies the Shield's Shield bonus, not the Enhancement bonus to the Shield bonus, so only a +6 due to Shield FFocus/Greater Shield Focus.
An enhancement bonus to the shield bonus increases the shield bonus. The way you're trying to interpret it enhancement bonuses to armor and shield wouldn't stack on a single player.

It is an enhancement bonus to the Armor Class bonus type. The armor and shield can stack separately, but the +4 Tower Shield has a +4 shield bonus, as well as a +4 Enhancement bonus to the Shield. The +4 Full plate is a +9 armor bonus, with +4 Enhancment bonus to the Armor.

Covering Defense only states the Shield's Shield bonus, not Shield bonus with enhancement bonus.

Grand Lodge

Cao Phen wrote:
Artoo wrote:
Cao Phen wrote:
Arkhios, make note that Covering Defense only applies the Shield's Shield bonus, not the Enhancement bonus to the Shield bonus, so only a +6 due to Shield FFocus/Greater Shield Focus.
An enhancement bonus to the shield bonus increases the shield bonus. The way you're trying to interpret it enhancement bonuses to armor and shield wouldn't stack on a single player.

It is an enhancement bonus to the Armor Class bonus type. The armor and shield can stack separately, but the +4 Tower Shield has a +4 shield bonus, as well as a +4 Enhancement bonus to the Shield. The +4 Full plate is a +9 armor bonus, with +4 Enhancment bonus to the Armor.

Covering Defense only states the Shield's Shield bonus, not Shield bonus with enhancement bonus.

To quote The PRD, "Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides."

That can be expounded upon to say that the enhancement bonus on a shield increases the shield bonus being provided.

So, Artoo is correct.

Sovereign Court

Cao Phen wrote:
Artoo wrote:
Cao Phen wrote:
Arkhios, make note that Covering Defense only applies the Shield's Shield bonus, not the Enhancement bonus to the Shield bonus, so only a +6 due to Shield FFocus/Greater Shield Focus.
An enhancement bonus to the shield bonus increases the shield bonus. The way you're trying to interpret it enhancement bonuses to armor and shield wouldn't stack on a single player.

It is an enhancement bonus to the Armor Class bonus type. The armor and shield can stack separately, but the +4 Tower Shield has a +4 shield bonus, as well as a +4 Enhancement bonus to the Shield. The +4 Full plate is a +9 armor bonus, with +4 Enhancment bonus to the Armor.

Covering Defense only states the Shield's Shield bonus, not Shield bonus with enhancement bonus.

No - a +4 tower shield gives a total of +8 shield bonus to AC (+10 with the two feats). The enhancement bonus is in no way seperate.

+4 Full plate is a +13 armor bonus to AC.

Grand Lodge

heh. You are worried about him giving the group +10?

Just be glad he is not a helpful halfling wearing beneficent armor, gloves of arcane striking, beneficent shield, riding a mount with the bodyguard archtype.... (The post is somewhere around the forum somewhere. Basically, he wanders around the battlefield giving everyone in his party +20 AC.... )

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

*Casts grease on the ground beneath the tower shield specialist's feet, and also on the tower shield for good measure.*


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I don't understand why DMs just let players "build" the characters however they see fit? All +4 items? The gear that "so happens" to give the maximum AC benefits?

I don't see it as "rule X is broken", I see these issues as issues of mini maxing to the nth degree. Personally, I feel it cheapens the thrill of finding magic items during the course of the story or as reward for services, quests and so forth.

A 24 Dex? There's no story there. It's metagaming calculations. People play for different reasons, no doubt. What's cool around my gaming table may not be cool around your gaming table. I get that. But I don't think we need rule changes to classes or the other elements because people have found ways to completely exploit the rules.

I even hate the idea of a "dump" stat, that you intentionally make something as low as possible just to boost another stat to astronomical levels for another "+" just doesn't make sense. When the rules for improving attribute points came out in 3e, I remember my players and I thinking it was extraordinary that somebody could conceivably have a 20 in an attribute. When you read through the boards, people routinely post builds with 20s, 22s, 24s. The idea that a score of a 12 gave you a +1 bonus use to really mean something, since in 1e and 2e, a score of a 12 or 13 really didn't give you anything to celebrate. Now it seems "just a +1" is laughable.

I think solution is to place limits on starting characters. Make them adventure for the good stuff! Make the magical items meaningful.


Gwaithador wrote:
The idea that a score of a 12 gave you a +1 bonus use to really mean something, since in 1e and 2e, a score of a 12 or 13 really didn't give you anything to celebrate.

I think it was roughly a 16-17 before you got a +1 modifier for many stats in 1 & 2e. I definitely like the modern version better.

Since you brought up AD&D, I'd like to point out that Mr. Gygax planned for every possible aspect of player cheese he could think of - it is scattered throughout the rules of both editions and he was a harsh master. I think taking efforts to remove exploitable rules is a good thing.

Overall, I do agree with the tone and intent of your post, however.

My opinion.


You're right. It took very high numbers to get any sort of advantage. I should have clarified. I meant those of us coming over from 1st and 2nd edition thought it was remarkable that a 12 gave you a "+1" and that was a big deal for a lot of players making the switch from the older editions.


Jason Wu wrote:

So what if this guy has uber AC?

What is he going to do as his party is killed around him since the NPCs can't hit him and decide to attack his teammates instead?

Threaten them with harsh language from behind his wall of metal?

-j

Now I want to make a build like this with an outrageous French accent who just taunts people.


Yes, high AC/low damage martial characters are the most boring characters to play, for the player, for the group, and for the GM.

Why would you ever build a high Dex tower shield fighter? This guy should have strength pumped to the max not dex. And as has been mentioned who has +4 mithral armor at 8th level? I took a fighter to 20th level and his armor was never that good until about 18th level.

The wizard equivalent of this character is a wiz that turns into a tree or rock every encounter. "No one can hurt me!" Great, what fun!

I think sometimes in the quest for various kinds of uber optimization we forget that the purpose of this game is to have fun and some builds just don't do that no matter how awesomely optimized.


Gwaithador wrote:

You're right. It took very high numbers to get any sort of advantage. I should have clarified. I meant those of us coming over from 1st and 2nd edition thought it was remarkable that a 12 gave you a "+1" and that was a big deal for a lot of players making the switch from the older editions.

I remember when we first switched. A lot of us were like, holy cap, I get +3/+3 with a 16!

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