First of all, wasn't sure where to put this so if there is a better forum, please feel free to flag and move it!
Now, I noticed that a lot of 3rd party publishers seem to offer a discount if you buy both the print and PDF editions at the same time. Now, I understand that with Paizo's subscription model you might not want to do as near of a big discount as some 3rd party publishers do, but what about... just as an example using Inner Sea Gods...
$39.99 HC
$27.99 PDF
Maybe say $49.99-54.99 for the bundle?
Now, part of why I say this is, I'll be completely honest here. Looking at the price of the Inner Sea Gods PDF then looking at the price of the Print book here... then looking at the price of the Print book from other popular sources, I really financially find it hard to buy the HC directly from Paizo AND buy the PDF (but I very much do want both.) But, if you did like 25-50% off the price of the PDF when purchased at the same time as the HC, it would make it much more appealing... but then the question becomes, would it help your sales from other than just me? I really don't know, which is kind of why I figured I'd give this example and find out.
We have to be very very careful when we think about doing anything that increases the value proposition of our products at paizo.com in ways that the retailers who carry our products cannot match. It makes them angry at us.
Don't your subscriptions do that?
Actually for many of us, it brings it in line worth what the retailers can do. I'd probably be able to get the physical books cheaper here in Aus,after factoring in shipping, the PDFs and instant access ate what sells me on the subscriptions.
We have to be very very careful when we think about doing anything that increases the value proposition of our products at paizo.com in ways that the retailers who carry our products cannot match. It makes them angry at us.
Hmm, that's somewhat understandable, but while the subscription is worth it, for books I am not subscribed (which I do plan to subscribe again soon as the next adventure path starts, don't want to restart in the middle of one plus I need to catch up on my cellphone bill next month) to it's very difficult to buy them from you when I can get them elsewhere for 30% off then use that money to buy the PDF here.
I want to buy them direct from you, I really really do... but... when I look at the Print+PDF cost... my debit card runs away from me in terror for the popular online site that starts with an A.
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The *lack* of a bundle is meant to entice people to subscribe, and we have always said that it's important to shop where your budget makes the most sense. It's just as important for customers to buy directly from us as from other channels—game stores, book stores, sites like Amazon, etc.
since you are talking about a current product you could subscribe to the books, purchase the one, then cancel. As far as I know that's an option.
I do agree that it would be nice to see better options for pdf versions of books you own. One reason I really love my subscriptions is because I get the free PDFs along with them. Never thought I would use PDFs as much as I do prior to these subscriptions.
These days i was looking into buying ultimate combat+ultimate magic+ultimate equipment and the price difference from paizo's and a third party's (starts with A) was roughly 40% including the shipment.
The ultimate magic alone had a 60% difference. Paizo's shipment are overall higher, but i understand that.
I noticed that the price of old books pretty much never go down once launched.
Alright, well thanks a bunch for the insight Vic and Liz, as I said, I understand better now your reasonings I think, and will for sure subscribe again for awhile when the next adventure path starts (or maybe sooner... might not be able to wait hehe)
Chief Technical Officer
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We have to be very very careful when we think about doing anything that increases the value proposition of our products at paizo.com in ways that the retailers who carry our products cannot match. It makes them angry at us.Don't your subscriptions do that?
Honestly, yes, and there are some retailers that *hate* us for offering subscriptions. But subscriptions are *fundamental* to our business operations, so we draw the line there.
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CEO
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I noticed that the price of old books pretty much never go down once launched.
That is on purpose. We don't want to sell a book to subscribers and early buyers and then a short time later, offer it at a lower price. That would just be a slap in the face to those folks. After four or five years, we have lowered our prices on occasion, like the lowering of the prices on our 3.5 era modules, but those tend to be the exception rather than the rule.
-Lisa
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By and large, I've found Paizo's business model to be quite customer friendly overall. Of course I would love to buy huge numbers of things for infinitesimal prices, but given reality, the way Paizo does it seems to walk the line pretty well.
Myself, I've tried to purchase most of the RPG line from a FLGS. This is partly because shipping of the RPG line is huge, partly to support the FLGS. Then again, the FLGS isn't so L, so I wouldn't buy everything there; plus, I tend to want both PDFs and physical copies, so subscriptions make a lot of sense to me. That the RPG line has relatively low-priced PDFs make it one where I'm more likely to want to patronize the FLGS.
(Still not sure if where I'm moving this summer will have a FLGS; I fear I'm still going to be living in a place where the FLGS is an hour's drive away.)
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Thanks to the Paizo staff for sharing insight on some of your business practices, very informative and transparent. :)
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I agree with Giorgo: never dealt with a company as friendly as Paizo. Both staff on the boards and customer service via email are awesome. I wanted to start my subscription with Inner Sea Gods and Vic Wertz just made that happened and told me to contact customer service. He could have just ignored the question I put on the boards but he took a minute of his time and committed an answer. He probably did other things like coordinate with management and/or customer service, or maybe he didn't have to because Paizo empowers their employees. Who knows what happened behind the scenes but from my perspective, Paizo made it happen and the process was effortless on my end. Kudos Paizo!
What i dont like is being a late comer to pathfinder aps and other products go out of print..im trying to collect all the books but it makes it hard..i loved that rise of the runelords was collected in hardcover and i understand that you dont want to do alot of hard covers, that you would rather people buy the books monthly..i get all that but i do wish you would consider hardcover collections when books go out of print
thank you
That is on purpose. We don't want to sell a book to subscribers and early buyers and then a short time later, offer it at a lower price. That would just be a slap in the face to those folks. After four or five years, we have lowered our prices on occasion, like the lowering of the prices on our 3.5 era modules, but those tend to be the exception rather than the rule.
-Lisa
I understand your reasons, and i have all praises to paizo's work on the books, they are really well done.
I am a new subscriber and im planning on getting my hands on a lot of old books (modules, AP's, campaign setting). Its just that many of them are a better business for me acquiring from another sites, even with the 15% discount from AP's.I wanted to start my subscription with Inner Sea Gods
Damn, same here, but i wasnt so clever. I will have to buy it separatedly another time.
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+1!
Having been this person myself, yes. A thousand times yes.
Boss's boss: "Couldn't you just..."
Me: *Cringe and whimper* "Have mercy."
I am a new subscriber and im planning on getting my hands on a lot of old books (modules, AP's, campaign setting). Its just that many of them are a better business for me acquiring from another sites, even with the 15% discount from AP's.
Sites such as Noble Knight Games might come in handy there or you will have to hunt ebay for PFRPG lots.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I agree with Giorgo: never dealt with a company as friendly as Paizo. Both staff on the boards and customer service via email are awesome. I wanted to start my subscription with Inner Sea Gods and Vic Wertz just made that happened and told me to contact customer service. He could have just ignored the question I put on the boards but he took a minute of his time and committed an answer. He probably did other things like coordinate with management and/or customer service, or maybe he didn't have to because Paizo empowers their employees. Who knows what happened behind the scenes but from my perspective, Paizo made it happen and the process was effortless on my end. Kudos Paizo!
Honestly, the process was effortless for me as well—I knew CS could and would take care of you.
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Chief Technical Officer
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What i dont like is being a late comer to pathfinder aps and other products go out of print..im trying to collect all the books but it makes it hard..i loved that rise of the runelords was collected in hardcover and i understand that you dont want to do alot of hard covers, that you would rather people buy the books monthly..i get all that but i do wish you would consider hardcover collections when books go out of print
thank you
You (and some of the other people who have commented in this thread) will probably find this post very informative (as well as later posts in the thread). Things have changed a little bit in the 5 years since that was written—most notably, pretty much every hardcover in the RPG line is considered "evergreen" at this point—but it's still true for most things.
In regards to the AP and that they are monthly, I look at them more like magazines then books. Basically, with Paizo losing the Dragon and Dungeon, the AP's replaced that loss...from what I understand. So, though they are NOT magazines, I view them more similar to magazines (even in how they are put together with different sections) than a book release per se.
So, in the collection of APs, I'd also view getting back issues similarly to how you would with a set of magazines (or comics). Unfortunately, just like back issues of those items, with APs, some will be higher priced (more valued by some) than others, and/or harder to get.
print on demand?.....
In regards to the AP and that they are monthly, I look at them more like magazines then books. Basically, with Paizo losing the Dragon and Dungeon, the AP's replaced that loss...from what I understand. So, though they are NOT magazines, I view them more similar to magazines (even in how they are put together with different sections) than a book release per se.
So, in the collection of APs, I'd also view getting back issues similarly to how you would with a set of magazines (or comics). Unfortunately, just like back issues of those items, with APs, some will be higher priced (more valued by some) than others, and/or harder to get.
much of what you say is true..unfortunatly that also encourages pirateing..which is wrong but out there in massive numbers..i dont mean to offend anyone here and if im late to this discussion as vic has shown..i just dident know about the other threads...suppose i'll go read some more numenera
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print on demand?.....
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One thing to bear in mind with the APs: although it gets hard to find print copies of the older ones, the fact that they're available in PDF means that you can legally purchase them indefinitely. (At least, as long as Paizo is in business, and maintains its current policies. We all remember when Hasbro/WotC suddenly decided it didn't want to legally sell PDFs any more.)
I was very lucky at a local FLGS: I found a copy of Stolen Land (as well as the Kingmaker Map Folio) on their used shelf. I am running Kingmaker with a FtF group. I'd managed to get the rest of the books in hardcopy, but for Stolen Land I was relying entirely on the PDF. (I had printed out out and bound it, using a small home spiral binding machine that I picked up a number of years ago explicitly for printing and binding RPG PDFs. However, when I do that, I tend to print most of the book in B&W, as I have a duplexing B&W printer and it's a lot cheaper to print that way. The spiral binding also takes up more space on the shelf than an actual book.)
Not just ebay, but if you have a FLGS or two, keep an eagle eye on their used shelf. You can find a lot of good old stuff on there, but sometimes gemes come through there as well. (At my FLGS, there's usually not much Pathfinder stuff for sale used. It's one data point, so doesn't mean much, but it could be that Pathfinder fans don't sell their stuff, or that it gets snapped up fast when it shows up.)
I always just saw it as the subscription is the bundle. But then again I subscribe to the AP's, modules, campaign setting, companions and tales so I am rarely picking up a single product.