"Free" Actions During an Attack of Opportunity


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 274 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Sczarni

129 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 14 people marked this as a favorite.

In a recent thread the question came up as to whether or not a creature with the Grab Universal Monster ability could initiate a grapple during a successful Attack of Opportunity outside of its own turn. The Grab ability states that "If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action".

This becomes problematic if you consider the general understanding that free actions may only be taken during your turn (See: Action Types).

Other similar "free" actions normally associated with a successful attack would also fall into this category, such as Trip, Pull, and Push.
Additionally, a Giant's Rock Catching ability is also activated as a free action (which would essentially make it a useless ability if it could not be taken outside of the Giant's turn).

QUESTION: Can creatures with Grab or Trip (or similar abilities that are triggered as a "free action" during an attack) use those abilities during a successful Attack of Opportunity?

A quick search of this forum and others will show that questions concerning Grab and Trip during an Attack of Opportunity are quite frequent, and date back as far as 2010:

[2014] grab + AOO + greater grapple?
[2013] Free action during an AoO : does it work?
[2012] Grab monster ability, free actions, an AoOs: Possibly intended?
[2011] Grab of Opportunity
[2010] AoO and Grab

I believe this qualifies as a "frequently asked question".

Any thoughts?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yes - I didn't know there was any kind of controversy over this one. "Free action" in this context means "without requiring any actions on the part of the attacker" rather than a defined action (standard, move, free, swift, etc.)

Scarab Sages

Other examples of free actions taken outside your own turn;

falling over when tripped or KO'ed

falling when pushed off a ledge

dropping held objects when panicked or paralysed

Sczarni

I don't think "falling" is considered a "free action".

Dropping held objects when panicked happens on your turn, I believe.


Snorter wrote:

Other examples of free actions taken outside your own turn;

falling over when tripped or KO'ed

falling when pushed off a ledge

dropping held objects when panicked or paralysed

None of those are free actions in the mechanical sense.

Edit: I was wrong; panicked does require you to drop the objects; it doesn't just drop them as a matter of course. So that would be a free action the panicked creature must take as soon as possible.


Nefreet wrote:
Dropping held objects when panicked happens on your turn, I believe.

I don't think this is accurate. I'm pretty sure you drop items at the time of the effect. If you fail a save vs Fear and end up Panicked, you'd run on your turn, but you drop your stuff the moment the Panic takes effect.

Shadow Lodge

Doomed Hero wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Dropping held objects when panicked happens on your turn, I believe.
I don't think this is accurate. I'm pretty sure you drop items at the time of the effect. If you fail a save vs Fear and end up Panicked, you'd run on your turn, but you drop your stuff the moment the Panic takes effect.

I don't think it really matters either way when you drop the weapon since you already have a predetermined action to run during your turn and can't take any other actions (including AoOs as that would be the only reason to want to keep the weapon til your turn).


It would matter if someone removed the panicked condition before the affected character's turn came up.

This is a bit of a digression from the topic at hand.

Shadow Lodge

blahpers wrote:

It would matter if someone removed the panicked condition before the affected character's turn came up.

This is a bit of a digression from the topic at hand.

It is off-topic...but good point.


Does anyone actually rule that you can't use grab on an AoO? I've never seen it. Is there actual disagreement on this or is this a perceived problem?


IIRC I've seen some time ago a post from the developer or similar where they states that the intent of the term "free action" in those cases is "something you can't do at sort of time expense", or somewhat... basically what Tormsskull said. I can't retrieve the post, atm, however, so don't take my words for gold, it's totally possible I'm wrong.


Robert A Matthews wrote:
Does anyone actually rule that you can't use grab on an AoO? I've never seen it. Is there actual disagreement on this or is this a perceived problem?

Same here. Apparently there are people who think that actions triggered off successful attacks can't be used off of AoOs.

I'd never even considered that interpretation before yesterday.


I got bit-plus-tripped by a foo dog as an attack of opportunity during my first PFS session, for what it's worth. It never would have occurred to me to object, and I still wouldn't.


Yes this totally is happening in a game I'm playing. I posted one of the other threads asking about this. Our GM doesn't know the rules as well as most of the players and doesn't like getting bogged down in rules minutiae. I thought that you can grab on an AoO and another player thought you can't take free actions when it isn't your turn. It came up in the last fight of the game session, he brought it up once the fight was over in a respectful way. We are both smart people with good system mastery. I can see the other side hence the rules confusion. There are some poorly worded bits of rules text and a nice FAQ answer would help.

Sczarni

Well, not quite the # or rate of FAQ clicks that last week's thread received, but we're getting there.

(maybe I should have put "FAQ" in the title after all)


No need for FAQ, just run it how you want.


My inclination would be that you can't just do a free action out of the blue on someone else's turn (unless otherwise noted, like speaking), but if the free action has a specific triggering condition (like something that happens on a successful attack, etc), then you can do it when those conditions are triggered.

However, from a RAW perspective, I can see what the rules lawyers are getting at. An attack of opportunity isn't officially one of the listed action types, so you're not officially taking an action when you do that, and you can't do a free action "while taking another action normally". I don't particularly like that interpretation though, and would appreciated it if some FAQ did clarify otherwise.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Robert A Matthews wrote:
No need for FAQ, just run it how you want.

Well, except for the fact that this question comes up quite a bit.

I can run thru some of the other threads and copy the primary arguments against, if you want, since nobody here yet seems to be in opposition.


I've run into free action on aoo plenty before, especially on the boards. People don't like it and I have pointed out two things.

Snap shot, improved snap shot, and combat reflexes. An faq says that it's expected that as long as you have a free action to operate your attacks with your ranged weapon, then you goto town.

So, it's okay for a guy with a musket to grab specific ammunition, load the weapon, ready their firearm, aim and pull the trigger to fire, because it's on an aoo, and you built your character to get to load as a free action.

People have an issue with a guy who last used their longsword one handed that they can't use their free hand on an aoo to just two hand it for the attack.

Immediate actions take more time than free actions, right? Strange how people limit free actions, compared to it, granted you only get one immediate.


It is possible to quick draw a longsword and attack if someone wields a dagger when a monster provokes an aoo?

Or if someone wields a tourch or nothing?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Robert A Matthews wrote:
Does anyone actually rule that you can't use grab on an AoO? I've never seen it. Is there actual disagreement on this or is this a perceived problem?

I would not allow it since it is not given a specific rules exception.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I've always thought free actions (besides speaking) could only be done on their turn. I've always ruled Monster special abilities that are free actions couldn't be done on an aoo. This is a good question, I'd like to see the answer.

Grand Lodge

I don't know if anyone has posted this, but this is all i could find.

Here

It doesn't specifically deal with the grab action on an attack though.

Lantern Lodge

FAQ tagged

Hope they come up with a clear and substantial reply.

Offhand, I expect the results to be something like...
- Free actions to be done during turn only.

- Grab, Trip, Pull, and Push to be restricted to free actions.

- Rock Catching to become "as a free or immediate action". (Hence solving the biggest issue this ability has.)

Or (Very unlikely outcome)

- Total system overhaul! Maybe the reclassification of certain free actions to "instant" actions? (Instant being free actions that can be done any time?)

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rapanuii wrote:

I've run into free action on aoo plenty before, especially on the boards. People don't like it and I have pointed out two things.

Snap shot, improved snap shot, and combat reflexes. An faq says that it's expected that as long as you have a free action to operate your attacks with your ranged weapon, then you go to town.

So, it's okay for a guy with a musket to grab specific ammunition, load the weapon, ready their firearm, aim and pull the trigger to fire, because it's on an aoo, and you built your character to get to load as a free action.

That is incorrect. An AOO interrupts the current combat. The AOO is immediately resolved and then combat resumes. Technically, you can't even take a free action during an AOO because the AOO takes precedence over everything (unless there is an ability or feat that specifically states otherwise).

PRD wrote:
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

Sczarni

FavoredEnemy wrote:

I don't know if anyone has posted this, but this is all i could find.

Here

It doesn't specifically deal with the grab action on an attack though.

From the thread...

Jason Bulmahn, Lead Designer wrote:

Hmm.. currently, Combat Maneuvers should not be used as part of an AoO (despite any combat maneuver language issues). I made this change for two reasons...

The first was to streamline the turn sequence. AoO's are disruptive enough as they currently stand, but adding in a Combat Maneuver can easily bog things down.

The second was that I wanted to curtail the use of Combat Maneuvers as an "Action Denial" strategy. Now, I can understand why players like this strategy (its quite effective if done right), but when turned on the players, the game can quickly become no fun for anyone. Through the use of trip, disarm, and grapple, you can usually completely nullify an opponents planned action, or at least hamper it to the point of being insignificant. I am not 100% sure this is good for the game as a whole....

Of course, these are only my current thoughts on the issue.. I am, as always, open to debate and suggestion. Can anyone give me some actual playtest feedback on how this has affected play?

Mind you, this quote is from 2008, before Pathfinder was released.

His thoughts could have very well changed since then, but it's a good quote to have none-the-less.

Good find, FavoredEnemy.

Grand Lodge

DEXRAY wrote:

It is possible to quick draw a longsword and attack if someone wields a dagger when a monster provokes an aoo?

Or if someone wields a tourch or nothing?

I'd require you to attack with the weapon with which you threaten the target. If you have more than one weapon that threatens, of course you can pick which AoO you take.

Sczarni

DEXRAY's example is one of the reasons why half the playerbase does not allow Grab or Trip during an AoO. Free actions, such as Quickdraw, or gripping your one-handed weapon with two hands, are generally understood to only function on your turn. So when a Wolf gets a "free action" to trip during a Bite attack, it's understandable why some don't allow it during an AoO.

But then our real-life-brains start grinding away and you think to yourself...

Wolf bites, wolf trips... snake bites, snake grabs... frog licks, frog pulls... what does it matter if it's its turn or not?

Complications of an abstract, turn-based, action-defined, combat system.

Scarab Sages

It would help, if there were some way to re-designate these rider effects as 'non-actions', part of the overall 'damage' triggered by the successful attack, so they can be distinguished from free actions that take some decision-making from the attacker (quick-drawing, changing combat stances, double-handing a weapon), or combat maneuvers, or the decision to alter one's attack via Cleave, Awesome Blow, Vital Strike.

I can't see how anyone could argue that a creature with a venomous bite didn't inject that venom as part of its bite, so why would a gluey ooze not stick to its target, as a result of its slam?

So; no to unarmed warrior declaring Grapple as AoO, but yes to giant frog hitting you with its tongue, and accidentally globbing you back into its mouth.

Scarab Sages

Secane wrote:

- Rock Catching to become "as a free or immediate action". (Hence solving the biggest issue this ability has.)

Or (Very unlikely outcome)

- Total system overhaul! Maybe the reclassification of certain free actions to "instant" actions? (Instant being free actions that can be done any time?)

I successfully petitioned for Summoners' Life Link to be reclassified as a 'non-action', for the same reasons brought up in support of Rock Catching, namely that it is supposed to work in opponent's turns, and could never work otherwise.

It's still only an FAQ reply, AFAIK, and hasn't made it into errata, but that's a good precedent for Rock Catching to be reclassified.

Sczarni

Just noticed that a Stirge doesn't use an action to attach. If it hits, it grapples.

Then again, attach doesn't give the victim the grappled condition, so it still aligns with Jason Bulmahn's comment quoted earlier.

Grand Lodge

Nefreet wrote:

Just noticed that a Stirge doesn't use an action to attach. If it hits, it grapples.

Then again, attach doesn't give the victim the grappled condition, so it still aligns with Jason Bulmahn's comment quoted earlier.

Then again, a normal stirge won't get an AoO, since it is tiny with a reach of 0'.

Sczarni

Oh, of course. They still threaten within their square, though.

Grand Lodge

Nefreet wrote:
Oh, of course. They still threaten within their square, though.

Is that a rule, with a citation? All I can find is the generic "Creatures with a reach of 0' do not threaten."


RedDogMT wrote:
Rapanuii wrote:

I've run into free action on aoo plenty before, especially on the boards. People don't like it and I have pointed out two things.

Snap shot, improved snap shot, and combat reflexes. An faq says that it's expected that as long as you have a free action to operate your attacks with your ranged weapon, then you go to town.

So, it's okay for a guy with a musket to grab specific ammunition, load the weapon, ready their firearm, aim and pull the trigger to fire, because it's on an aoo, and you built your character to get to load as a free action.

That is incorrect. An AOO interrupts the current combat. The AOO is immediately resolved and then combat resumes. Technically, you can't even take a free action during an AOO because the AOO takes precedence over everything (unless there is an ability or feat that specifically states otherwise).

PRD wrote:
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

what exactly is incorrect? An faq specifically says that snap shot works. This is a thing. Please take note that my wording about describing the attack with the musket was just taking the aoo, and wasn't about taking a readied action, incase of any confusion.


I honestly forget, but can't you substitute a Trip attempt for an AoO since you can substitute a Trip attempt for an attack? Maybe that's an old 3.5 rule. I don't think anybody I play with has tried that in recent years, at least not enough for me to remember. Grab on AoOs for monsters comes up constantly though. I kind of agree with Jason's sentiment that allowing combat maneuvers as AoOs can lead to situations where players (or monsters) effectively get denied the ability to act. It seems like this often happens pretty quickly with grapple anyhow though. Is action denial via grapple a bug or a feature? Perhaps even pinned enemies should be able to take actions, just with a hefty penalty.

@Secane - Changing Rock Catching to an immediate action could make a lot of sense, especially since it already has a "once per round" stipulation. I wonder if making Grab an immediate action might not be an improvement too. This would solve some of the full attack and Grab questions folks have had in other threads.

@DEXRAY - I think drawing a longsword as part of an AoO would be significantly different than executing a Trip or Grab with a natural weapon during an AoO.


Snorter wrote:

It would help, if there were some way to re-designate these rider effects as 'non-actions', part of the overall 'damage' triggered by the successful attack, so they can be distinguished from free actions that take some decision-making from the attacker (quick-drawing, changing combat stances, double-handing a weapon), or combat maneuvers, or the decision to alter one's attack via Cleave, Awesome Blow, Vital Strike.

I can't see how anyone could argue that a creature with a venomous bite didn't inject that venom as part of its bite, so why would a gluey ooze not stick to its target, as a result of its slam?

So; no to unarmed warrior declaring Grapple as AoO, but yes to giant frog hitting you with its tongue, and accidentally globbing you back into its mouth.

Rider affects don't use an action type. If the snake venom required a free action you would have a point. Grab requires an action. Now the RAI may not be matching RAW, but in that case the wording needs to be changed.

PS: I have also noticed that I have allowed wolves to trip if they bite during an AoO, but I also did not know it was a free action. Now I have to take away the trip or allow the grab to be consistent. Decisions decisions..<sighs>


1 person marked this as a favorite.
kinevon wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Oh, of course. They still threaten within their square, though.
Is that a rule, with a citation? All I can find is the generic "Creatures with a reach of 0' do not threaten."
prd wrote:


Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn.

There you go. We already know an animal can attack into its own square.


dot

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rapanuii wrote:
RedDogMT wrote:
Rapanuii wrote:

I've run into free action on aoo plenty before, especially on the boards. People don't like it and I have pointed out two things.

Snap shot, improved snap shot, and combat reflexes. An faq says that it's expected that as long as you have a free action to operate your attacks with your ranged weapon, then you go to town.

So, it's okay for a guy with a musket to grab specific ammunition, load the weapon, ready their firearm, aim and pull the trigger to fire, because it's on an aoo, and you built your character to get to load as a free action.

That is incorrect. An AOO interrupts the current combat. The AOO is immediately resolved and then combat resumes. Technically, you can't even take a free action during an AOO because the AOO takes precedence over everything (unless there is an ability or feat that specifically states otherwise).

PRD wrote:
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
what exactly is incorrect? An faq specifically says that snap shot works. This is a thing. Please take note that my wording about describing the attack with the musket was just taking the aoo, and wasn't about taking a readied action, incase of any confusion.

That FAQ specifically states that if you have Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes AND you can use a free action to reload, then you may do multiple AOO during a turn. It does not stand as proof that you may perform free actions outside your turn.

Again, note how the FAQ states as long as you can reload your weapon with a free action...

Each AOO is a separate event. If it occurs during your turn, then you may have an opportunity to reload as a free action when a AOO is NOT happening. Outside your turn, you cannot use a free action (to reload), so Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes will not help much.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:

DEXRAY's example is one of the reasons why half the playerbase does not allow Grab or Trip during an AoO. Free actions, such as Quickdraw, or gripping your one-handed weapon with two hands, are generally understood to only function on your turn. So when a Wolf gets a "free action" to trip during a Bite attack, it's understandable why some don't allow it during an AoO.

But then our real-life-brains start grinding away and you think to yourself...

Wolf bites, wolf trips... snake bites, snake grabs... frog licks, frog pulls... what does it matter if it's its turn or not?

Complications of an abstract, turn-based, action-defined, combat system.

But what does the fox say?


RedDogMT wrote:
Rapanuii wrote:
RedDogMT wrote:
Rapanuii wrote:

I've run into free action on aoo plenty before, especially on the boards. People don't like it and I have pointed out two things.

Snap shot, improved snap shot, and combat reflexes. An faq says that it's expected that as long as you have a free action to operate your attacks with your ranged weapon, then you go to town.

So, it's okay for a guy with a musket to grab specific ammunition, load the weapon, ready their firearm, aim and pull the trigger to fire, because it's on an aoo, and you built your character to get to load as a free action.

That is incorrect. An AOO interrupts the current combat. The AOO is immediately resolved and then combat resumes. Technically, you can't even take a free action during an AOO because the AOO takes precedence over everything (unless there is an ability or feat that specifically states otherwise).

PRD wrote:
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
what exactly is incorrect? An faq specifically says that snap shot works. This is a thing. Please take note that my wording about describing the attack with the musket was just taking the aoo, and wasn't about taking a readied action, incase of any confusion.

That FAQ specifically states that if you have Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes AND you can use a free action to reload, then you may do multiple AOO during a turn. It does not stand as proof that you may perform free actions outside your turn.

Again, note how the FAQ states as long as you can reload your weapon with a free action...

Each AOO is a separate event. If it occurs during your turn, then you may have an opportunity to reload as a free action when a AOO is NOT happening....

I'm sorry if this upsets you, but I am honestly trying to grasp what you are writing to me, and it's confusing to me.

I originally was writing that on an AoO snap shot and combat reflexes will allow you to load your weapon as a free action during the AoO, and every AOO beyond that which comes from Combat Reflexes will also work out where you may free action reload when the AOO happens. You writing to me "outside of your turn" is what I don't understand, in regards to what I had written.

Here is the FAQ I took from here, just so people can have that.

FAQ wrote:

Snap Shot: Can a character with Snap Shot (page 119) and Combat Reflexes make multiple attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon, assuming that loading the ranged weapon is a free action?

Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.


I do not agree with what RedDog is saying, but I see his point.

Most of us are reading Snap Shot as:

If loading your weapon is a free action, such as loading a bow, you can load and shoot your bow during any time you can make an AoO.

We are adding the idea that you may take the free action whenever an AoO is triggered.

I believe he is reading Snap Shot as:

If loading your weapon is a free action, AND you can take free actions, such as loading a bow when it is your turn, you can load a shoot your bow as part of an AoO.

He is using the free action as the limiter of the feat.

That is the problem with the English language. I don't agree with his interpretation, but it is not as far out there as it first appears.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:


QUESTION: Can creatures with Grab or Trip (or similar abilities that are triggered as a "free action" during an attack) use those abilities during a successful Attack of Opportunity?

I'll do you one better.

From the PRD on free actions: "Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."

From that quote, nowhere does it state that a free action CAN ONLY be done on your turn. It might be assumed that's the case because on your turn is when you normally take another action. But that's not at all what it says. It says while taking another action. Is an Attack of Opportunity another action? Sure.

The only problem is the word "normally" in the sentence. Why is that word even there? Are there non-normal actions you can take, and thus not permitted to use a free action? So, is an Attack of Opportunity a normal action, or a non-normal action?

If it's normal, then you can do a free action. If it's not, then you cannot do the free action, and it solves all the questions.


Which goes back to why can't you change/release your grip (a free action) during an AoO?

Each individual rule is simple. Combined they are so complicated.

Grand Lodge

Moondragon Starshadow wrote:
The only problem is the word "normally" in the sentence. Why is that word even there? Are there non-normal actions you can take, and thus not permitted to use a free action? So, is an Attack of Opportunity a normal action, or a non-normal action?

Neither. An attack of opportunity is not an action.


I haven't been able to find something that says that. Can you share?

Grand Lodge

Komoda wrote:
I haven't been able to find something that says that. Can you share?

An attack of opportunity is not one of the listed options on Table 8-2: Actions in Combat (unless it's the Attack standard action. Does anyone really want to argue that?) so anyone proposing it to be an action would have to establish what type of action it is and how the character can take that action outside their turn.

The rules allow you to make an attack, so you can. It's not necessary or supported by any rule for it to be an action, so it isn't. I'd also accept that it might be an unlisted miscellaneous action.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Would taking an aoo while disabled/0 hp cause you to lose hit points?

Grand Lodge

Rapanuii wrote:
Would taking an aoo while disabled/0 hp cause you to lose hit points?

It's not a standard action, but a GM might well consider it an "other strenuous action" (using "action" here in the ordinary language sense).

1 to 50 of 274 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / "Free" Actions During an Attack of Opportunity All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.