Is Sneak Attack ever worth it?


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Scavion wrote:
You will never be able to use Underhanded.

What are you talking about? Underhanded is an amazing Rogue Talent! ;)


Lemmy wrote:
Scavion wrote:
You will never be able to use Underhanded.
What are you talking about? Underhanded is an amazing Rogue Talent! ;)

=) Indeed it has quite the concept fulfilling effect for the Revised and Fixed Rogue.


Bladelock wrote:
With Deft Palm you don't have to draw your weapons to have them concealed. They can be in your hands.

Good luck getting that by.

And by the by, Deft Palm does nothing you can't already.

Sleight of Hand wrote:
When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer's Perception check. The observer's success doesn't prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed.


Scavion wrote:
Bladelock wrote:
With Deft Palm you don't have to draw your weapons to have them concealed. They can be in your hands.

Good luck getting that by.

And by the by, Deft Palm does nothing you can't already.

Sleight of Hand wrote:
When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer's Perception check. The observer's success doesn't prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed.

its the way we always played that talent. Even without that, a regular sneak round will yield on average 60 SA damage alone at lvl 10. I'm just not seeing how a lvl 10 bard is going to compete with that extra damage when rogues are using similar weapons with similar stat distribution.


Bladelock wrote:


I just don't understand complaining about talents. Have you looked at the full list?
Crippling Strike: a debuffing dream! a stacking, no save, -2str, with every hit, plus regular damage. Two rounds to make hitters puppies and casters paralyzed.

Good.

Quote:


Deadly Sneak: 1's and 2's rolled become 3's. It may only push the average damage above 4, but it makes for some really big SA's more often than not.

Isn't there a -2 hit...

Quote:


Bleed: It equals your SA dice, and keeps going...

True, but this only helps in attrition fights.

For Dirty Tricks? Try Maneuver Master Monk/Rogue so you can blind them sneak attack in same round. True, issue is CMBs are hard top beat CMDs for rogueish dudes.


Scavion wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Survivability-wise, a Bard is completely identical to a Rogue except gets shield proficiency and defensive spells. So hes just flat out better than a Rogue survivability-wise.
You forgot a second good save, the most important one, the will save.
Woops. Yeah. Probably one of the most important aspects.

We may have played in different types of campaigns, but evasion and uncanny dodge are pretty big when it comes to survivability.


Bladelock wrote:
Its the way we always played that talent. Even without that, a regular sneak round will yield on average 60 SA damage alone at lvl 10.

Assuming you land every attack. Which you won't.


Bladelock wrote:


its the way we always played that talent. Even without that, a regular sneak round will yield on average 60 SA damage alone at lvl 10. I'm just not seeing how a lvl 10 bard is going to compete with that extra damage when rogues are using similar weapons with similar stat distribution.

It's certainly not RAW, but houserules often fix the Rogue I find.

Your math seems funky too. 60 damage? This assumes all 4 sneak attacks land out of your 4 lowest To-hit attack rolls in the game for anyone whose actually trying to hit something.

A Bard competes because she always gets her damage 24/7. She doesn't depend upon her allies to get her a flank or rely on other dodgy mechanics. Her Attack rolls are going to be much much better. Your bluff check won't be fantastic, I'm looking at a +15 with a +2 Charisma bonus included I gather. The checkpoint for successful feints at that level is 28+Wisdom Mod. So you should fail more than half the time. Non-humanoid? 32.

Aeisha, Bardic Explorer:

Level 10 Dervish Dancer 9/Pathfinder Delver 1 (20 Point buy)
Traits: Armor Expert, Reincarnated
FCB goes in Skill Points
Str:10
Dex:24(16 Base +2 Human, +2 Ability Increases)
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:16

Feats:
1: Weapon Finesse
Human Bonus: Anything you want
3: Dervish Dance
Everything else is up in the air.

Gear:
+2 Scimitar(Gets treated as Keen)
Belt of Dexterity +4
Headband of Alluring Charisma +2
+1 Shadow Mithril chainshirt
+2 Buckler
Cloak of Resistance +3
Ring of Prot +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Trapspringer's Gloves
Eyes of the Eagle

Skills(72pts):
Acrobatics +20
Disable Device +25 (26 vs Traps, can take 10 to auto disable)
Escape Artist +20
Perception +18(+19 vs Traps)
Stealth +25 (10 Ranks, Class Skill +3, Competence Bonus from Shadow +5, +7 Dex
Kn.History +9
Perform(Dance) +8
(15 skill points remaining for social skills)

DEFENSES
HP: 68
AC: 27(29 during Battle Dance)
Touch: 18(20 during Battle Dance)
CMD: 25(27 during Battle Dance)
Fort:+8(+10 Heroism) Ref:+17(+21 Rain of Blows, Heroism) Will:+9(+11 Heroism)
+2 vs Death effects and Fear effects

OFFENSES:
Buffs: Inspire Courage +2, Rain of Blows +2, Heroism
Attack Bonus: +21/+21/+16
Damage: 1d6+11 x2 Crit on a 15-20

And still has up to 3rd level spells.


Blade, I spent 10 minutes in another thread building a bard with basic archer stats and gear. He performed about 84 dpr at level 10.

Oh and btw dpr is as follows:

Total round hit chance * (Precision damage + (Crit Multipliable damage * (1 + crit chance * (Crit Multiplier - 1))))

Not just your average damage. The rogue may have very solid precision damage but it sits very firmly outside of any benefit of crit multipliers or chance and he has generally a very low to hit. You can, if you work very hard, get it up to average levels for a martial.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just wanted to pop in and say I'm really enjoying the discussion going on. I don't have the time to do a detailed post, but just some quick comments I wanna throw in.

(EDITED IN) I wanna start off and ask people to try their best and not be personal in arguments. Even if you don't agree with someone, don't do a personal attack. It's tough to avoid once it starts going around, but do try. I can't stop you, obviously, but it would benefit everyone imho.

So, Sneak Attack isn't inherently weak? In fact, it's a nice thing to have on your character (Vivi alchemist, for example) to make use of when you can. The problem is that a rogue

a) relies on it solely to do things in combat and has no major secondary source of combat bonuses (Rogue Talents only offer so much and 3/4 BAB is a large weakness when situational abilities are shutdown).

and b) out-of-combat, it really doesn't do anything above-and-beyond what classes that can outperform a Rogue in combat. In fact, it's often weaker outside of combat because sheer number of skill points doesn't make up for having no real skill bonuses or special abilities. The rogues apparent strength outside of combat is the 2 more skillpoints it gets over something like Ranger, Bard, or Inquisitor, but that is outweighed by both skill bonuses (which don't mean much anyway from what I'm understanding) the Rogue doesn't get AND spellcasting.

I know I said I didn't want to talk too much about the Rogue and more focus on Sneak Attack, but I just wanted to put this out there.


Out of curiosity, I decided to calculate Aeisha's DPR.

According to my DPR calculator Excel spreadsheet, Aeishas average DPR against AC 24 is 56.84... Not bad, but not amazing either. Good enough to be a credible threat on her own, but won't be stealing the spotlight of a devoted martial character.

Now, we could also add to her effective DPR whatever extra damage potential she gives to her allies. I'm pretty sure casting Haste and/or using Bardic Performance to buff your whole party increases the overall party DPR much more a Rogue getting SA.

Xethik wrote:
So, Sneak Attack isn't inherently weak? In fact, it's a nice thing to have on your character (Vivi alchemist, for example) to make use of when you can.

Pretty much, yeah. It's not an awful class feature, it's just not good enough to carry a class.


Scavion wrote:
Bladelock wrote:


its the way we always played that talent. Even without that, a regular sneak round will yield on average 60 SA damage alone at lvl 10. I'm just not seeing how a lvl 10 bard is going to compete with that extra damage when rogues are using similar weapons with similar stat distribution.

It's certainly not RAW, but houserules often fix the Rogue I find.

Your math seems funky too. 60 damage? This assumes all 4 sneak attacks land out of your 4 lowest To-hit attack rolls in the game for anyone whose actually trying to hit something.

A Bard competes because she always gets her damage 24/7. She doesn't depend upon her allies to get her a flank or rely on other dodgy mechanics. Her Attack rolls are going to be much much better. Your bluff check won't be fantastic, I'm looking at a +15 with a +2 Charisma bonus included I gather. The checkpoint for successful feints at that level is 28+Wisdom Mod. So you should fail more than half the time. Non-humanoid? 32.

** spoiler omitted **...

The damage for those SA numbers are based on d8 SA from the Knife Master archetype, and deadly sneak which changes 1's and 2's to 3's. It pushes sneak damage to an avg of 4 per d8. That means 20 damage per hit, assuming 3 out of 4 hits. The first item my rogues generally get is +buff, so feint rarely fails when I don't have flanking.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:

Blade, I spent 10 minutes in another thread building a bard with basic archer stats and gear. He performed about 84 dpr at level 10.

Oh and btw dpr is as follows:

Total round hit chance * (Precision damage + (Crit Multipliable damage * (1 + crit chance * (Crit Multiplier - 1))))

Not just your average damage. The rogue may have very solid precision damage but it sits very firmly outside of any benefit of crit multipliers or chance and he has generally a very low to hit. You can, if you work very hard, get it up to average levels for a martial.

Bards have the same hit chance and weapon selection, which is why I didn't add those numbers. However even with those numbers added in, your bard would be keeping pace with a rogue.

I'm not sure how a basic bard, with basic gear is pumping out 84 damage a round, every round at lvl 10, but it sounds really good. What is the build, and what's it using?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Bladelock wrote:
Bards have the same hit chance

Not quite.

Grand Lodge

Step outside of Core, and Bards definitely come out ahead.


Bladelock wrote:

I know everyone here says that they play rogues, but I really have to question the builds that are being put together.

If you don't have a:
- a full feint line
- a flanking familiar
- multiple wands
- a supportive bloodline
- a supportive group that wants to work together to kill bad guys efficiently
or
- a racial, talent, or multiclass way to cast a few low lvl concealment type spells

then you should not be on here complaining about how hard it is to get off sneak attacks that hit. In fact, if your build can't string together at least two of these, then you should be playing another class.

My main problem with sneaks is that you're very lucky to get one precisely BECAUSE groups are decently coordinated. Rogue moves and sneaks. Party kills the guy you're standing next to. party member moves up to attack other guy. You move into position to flank, and backstab 0 or 1 times. Party kills that guy you need to move again.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Bladelock wrote:
Bards have the same hit chance
Not quite.

The rogue is going to have a higher dex, and will be removing the target's dex bonus to AC. Even with 2 wpn fighting, the bard doesn't have a better hit chance in most situations.

I haven't really jumped into a lot of stuff that isn't core because what I have seen so far just isn't as well balanced as it should be.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Bladelock wrote:

I know everyone here says that they play rogues, but I really have to question the builds that are being put together.

If you don't have a:
- a full feint line
- a flanking familiar
- multiple wands
- a supportive bloodline
- a supportive group that wants to work together to kill bad guys efficiently
or
- a racial, talent, or multiclass way to cast a few low lvl concealment type spells

then you should not be on here complaining about how hard it is to get off sneak attacks that hit. In fact, if your build can't string together at least two of these, then you should be playing another class.

My main problem with sneaks is that you're very lucky to get one precisely BECAUSE groups are decently coordinated. Rogue moves and sneaks. Party kills the guy you're standing next to. party member moves up to attack other guy. You move into position to flank, and backstab 0 or 1 times. Party kills that guy you need to move again.

I don't think I have ever played with a GM that lets a party systematically remove NPC's like that, unless they have animal int. However it's cool that your group works with you so when you do need that SA boost, your rogue is there to step up.


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If you are playing a rogue, you should NEVER engage in a fair fight if you can avoid it.

If any enemy mage has a component pouch, steal it.

If a barbarian roars in your face, kick him in the junk and run (Improved dirty tricks, kids)

If an enemy is busy with the party fighter, flank 'em then stab him in the back (the enemy not the fighter).

Don't be afraid to fight defensively until you have your shot.

Don't let enemies box you in. Keep moving, dodging and tumbling out of the way. (mobility is a great feat).

You are a hit and run specialist not a tank. Withdraw, change opponents, or catch others off guard. If you can't get a flank, "aid another" is a good option.

Feinting in combat is your friend because it opens up a chance for sneak attack.

If you can cast spells or reliably use a magic wand, then touch spells are great! A sneak attack with shocking grasp does brutal damage.


Bladelock wrote:
I don't think I have ever played with a GM that lets a party systematically remove NPC's like that, unless they have animal int. However it's cool that your group works with you so when you do need that SA boost, your rogue is there to step up.

I don't see how its a matter of let. The fighter type has one move and whack (probably with a 2 handed weapon) , the archer guns something down, and the cleric can finish it off.


Lemmy wrote:

Out of curiosity, I decided to calculate Aeisha's DPR.

According to my DPR calculator Excel spreadsheet, Aeishas average DPR against AC 24 is 56.84... Not bad, but not amazing either. Good enough to be a credible threat on her own, but won't be stealing the spotlight of a devoted martial character.

Now, we could also add to her effective DPR whatever extra damage potential she gives to her allies. I'm pretty sure casting Haste and/or using Bardic Performance to buff your whole party increases the overall party DPR much more a Rogue getting SA.

Tack on Arcane Strike to that, a free +2 damage is pretty nice. I feel silly for not plugging it into the Human bonus feat slot. Unfortunately Dervish Dancer gives up Inspire Courage for allies, but thems the breaks for free haste and keen for herself. Good Hope and Haste for everyone is still pretty nice and Aeisha makes a capable enough Archer.


Bladelock wrote:
The rogue is going to have a higher dex,

Why? Do Rogues get extra attribute points? No? Then they don't have any real attribute advantage over Bards.

Bladelock wrote:
and will be removing the target's dex bonus to AC.

Maybe, maybe not. And Bard can do it just as well. Also, for most opponents, flat-footed AC will be 2, maybe 3 points lower than normal AC. More often than not, it'll barely compensate for the TWF penalty, and without TW-Feint, feintinf in combat is too heavy a burden on action economy to make Rogues effective.

Bladelock wrote:
Even with 2 wpn fighting, the bard doesn't have a better hit chance in most situations.

Yes, he will. Bardic Performance can be used whenever the Bard wants and spells such as Haste and Heroism further widen the gap. And what's even better, the whole party will have higher accuracy, damage and saves as well. Bards can consistently buff everyone. Meanwhile, all Rogues bring to the table are a few d6 every now and then... Maybe. Also, Bards can feint too.

Moving on to the next post...

Type2Demon wrote:

If you are playing a rogue, you should NEVER engage in a fair fight if you can avoid it.

If any enemy mage has a component pouch, steal it.

If a barbarian roars in your face, kick him in the junk and run (Improved dirty tricks, kids)

None of these are exclusive to Rogues, and Rogues aren't particularly good at any of those.

Type2Demon wrote:
If an enemy is busy with the party fighter, flank 'em then stab him in the back (the enemy not the fighter).

Or, you could play a decent class and either buff your allies (Fighter included), debuff the enemy or deal significant damage without having to depend on your allies' positioning all the time. (Time and time again I've seen Rogue players beg their friends to help them flank, even though their friends had a different plan in mind, so their allies have to sacrifice their own tactics so the Rogue is little more than a complete waste of character during combat).

Besides, flanking isn't exclusive to Rogues, and again, Sneak Attack does not compensate for their abysmal accuracy and pathetic defenses.

Type2Demon wrote:
Don't be afraid to fight defensively until you have your shot.

i.e.: Go from "almost useless" to "completely useless". At least it's more honest to your teammates.

Type2Demon wrote:
Don't let enemies box you in. Keep moving, dodging and tumbling out of the way. (mobility is a great feat).

Rogues aren't particularly good at moving around either (and Mobility is an awful feat).

Type2Demon wrote:
You are a hit and run specialist not a tank. Withdraw, change opponents, or catch others off guard. If you can't get a flank, "aid another" is a good option.

Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V it is:

"Or, you could play a decent class and either buff your allies (Fighter included), debuff the enemy or deal significant damage without having to depend on your allies all the time."

Type2Demon wrote:
Feinting in combat is your friend because it opens up a chance for sneak attack.

Even when feinting works, it will usually reduce their AC by -2 or -3. -4 if you're really freaking lucky (keep in mind that most enemies rely more on armor, natural armor and deflection bonus than Dex to increase their AC). It barely compensates for the TWF penalty and surely doesn't compensate for a Rogue's awful defenses. While you're sacrificing an attack for what amounts to an extra +1 or +2 to a single enemy, the Bard just cast Haste and activated his Bardic Performance, giving himself and everyone else an extra attack and a +4 to hit.

Type2Demon wrote:
If you can cast spells or reliably use a magic wand, then touch spells are great! A sneak attack with shocking grasp does brutal damage.

A single Sneak Attack is not particularly impressive, and you're unlikely to do more than one if you're casting spells.

BTW, Minor Magic and Major Magic are horrible talents (the only thing that makes them worthy of consideration is the FAQ that says they allow you to qualify for Arcane Strike, although even that isn't enough to make Rogues a credible threat) and wands usually cost money. Keep buying them and the cost adds up pretty quickly.


Bladelock wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:

Blade, I spent 10 minutes in another thread building a bard with basic archer stats and gear. He performed about 84 dpr at level 10.

Oh and btw dpr is as follows:

Total round hit chance * (Precision damage + (Crit Multipliable damage * (1 + crit chance * (Crit Multiplier - 1))))

Not just your average damage. The rogue may have very solid precision damage but it sits very firmly outside of any benefit of crit multipliers or chance and he has generally a very low to hit. You can, if you work very hard, get it up to average levels for a martial.

Bards have the same hit chance and weapon selection, which is why I didn't add those numbers. However even with those numbers added in, your bard would be keeping pace with a rogue.

I'm not sure how a basic bard, with basic gear is pumping out 84 damage a round, every round at lvl 10, but it sounds really good. What is the build, and what's it using?

Human Dervish of Dawn 20 Point Buy:

Favored Class: +1 Spell Known

STR 16
DEX 22
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 14

HP 53
AC 22 (23)

Feats:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Arcane Strike
Deadly Aim
Many Shot

Belt of Dex +4
Adaptive Shortbow + 3
Boots of Speed
Mithral Chainshirt +1
Cloak of Resistance +3

Remember he can do all these buffs himself, and the ones here are just longlasting, haste, and performance.

+21/21/21/16
1d6 + 17 (2d6 + 34)

Vs 26 AC
(.75*41 + 20.5*2)*1.1= 78.925

Honestly off the top of my head, and i kinda need to get to bed.

Edit: Oh We're using 24 AC? Then

(.85*41 + 20.5*2.3)*1.1= 90.2


Lemmy wrote:
Bladelock wrote:
The rogue is going to have a higher dex,

Why? Do Rogues get extra attribute points? No? Then they don't have any real attribute advantage over Bards.

Bladelock wrote:
and will be removing the target's dex bonus to AC.

Maybe, maybe not. And Bard can do it just as well. Also, for most opponents, flat-footed AC will be 2, maybe 3 points lower than normal AC. More often than not, it'll barely compensate for the TWF penalty, and without TW-Feint, feintinf in combat is too heavy a burden on action economy to make Rogues effective.

Bladelock wrote:
Even with 2 wpn fighting, the bard doesn't have a better hit chance in most situations.

Yes, he will. Bardic Performance can be used whenever the Bard wants and spells such as Haste and Heroism further widen the gap. And what's even better, the whole party will have higher accuracy, damage and saves as well. Bards can consistently buff everyone. Meanwhile, all Rogues bring to the table are a few d6 every now and then... Maybe. Also, Bards can feint too.

Moving on to the next post...

Well Bards usually require more focus on Cha, so unless there is a high buy in, a rogue will often have a higher Dex. Just as rogues will increase Cha, but Bards will usually have a higher Cha.

You do realize that rogues can cast with wands? While the bard is self buffing, the rogue should be doing the same.

Also Bards do not have limitless bardic performances It is not some limitless well. SA never runs out. Rogues just aren't as bad as you guys are saying here.


Bladelock wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Bladelock wrote:
The rogue is going to have a higher dex,

Why? Do Rogues get extra attribute points? No? Then they don't have any real attribute advantage over Bards.

Bladelock wrote:
and will be removing the target's dex bonus to AC.

Maybe, maybe not. And Bard can do it just as well. Also, for most opponents, flat-footed AC will be 2, maybe 3 points lower than normal AC. More often than not, it'll barely compensate for the TWF penalty, and without TW-Feint, feintinf in combat is too heavy a burden on action economy to make Rogues effective.

Bladelock wrote:
Even with 2 wpn fighting, the bard doesn't have a better hit chance in most situations.

Yes, he will. Bardic Performance can be used whenever the Bard wants and spells such as Haste and Heroism further widen the gap. And what's even better, the whole party will have higher accuracy, damage and saves as well. Bards can consistently buff everyone. Meanwhile, all Rogues bring to the table are a few d6 every now and then... Maybe. Also, Bards can feint too.

Moving on to the next post...

Well Bards usually require more focus on Cha, so unless there is a high buy in, a rogue will often have a higher Dex. Just as rogues will increase Cha, but Bards will usually have a higher Cha.

You do realize that rogues can cast with wands? While the bard is self buffing, the rogue should be doing the same.

Also Bards do not have limitless bardic performances It is not some limitless well. SA never runs out. Rogues just aren't as bad as you guys are saying here.

Bardic Performance runs out about as often as rage does. Which in 4 years of pfs,and even more of APs and homebrews, is never.

The rogue has a chance of failing with the wands. The rogue has to spend extra cash to have those wands.


Bladelock wrote:

Well Bards usually require more focus on Cha, so unless there is a high buy in, a rogue will often have a higher Dex. Just as rogues will increase Cha, but Bards will usually have a higher Cha.

You do realize that rogues can cast with wands? While the bard is self buffing, the rogue should be doing the same.

Also Bards do not have limitless bardic performances It is not some limitless well. SA never runs out. Rogues just aren't as bad as you guys are saying here.

Well you spent about the same pointbuy on a 13 Int and atleast 12 Charisma.

Wands cost wealth mate which lets the Bard get more gold on you in other places. Wands are also notoriously expensive.

Bardic Performance has 23 rounds worth by 9th level. 4 rounds per combat for 4 combats a day leaves you plenty to spare.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Bladelock wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:

Blade, I spent 10 minutes in another thread building a bard with basic archer stats and gear. He performed about 84 dpr at level 10.

Oh and btw dpr is as follows:

Total round hit chance * (Precision damage + (Crit Multipliable damage * (1 + crit chance * (Crit Multiplier - 1))))

Not just your average damage. The rogue may have very solid precision damage but it sits very firmly outside of any benefit of crit multipliers or chance and he has generally a very low to hit. You can, if you work very hard, get it up to average levels for a martial.

Bards have the same hit chance and weapon selection, which is why I didn't add those numbers. However even with those numbers added in, your bard would be keeping pace with a rogue.

I'm not sure how a basic bard, with basic gear is pumping out 84 damage a round, every round at lvl 10, but it sounds really good. What is the build, and what's it using?

** spoiler omitted ** Honestly off the top of my head, and i kinda need to get to bed.

Edit: Oh We're using 24 AC? Then

(.85*41 + 20.5*2.3)*1.1= 90.2

I thought you meant non magic gear. I just gave SA numbers, not including a weapon, let alone magic weapons. A fully equipped rogue also does more damage than what you are proposing.


Bladelock wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Bladelock wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:

Blade, I spent 10 minutes in another thread building a bard with basic archer stats and gear. He performed about 84 dpr at level 10.

Oh and btw dpr is as follows:

Total round hit chance * (Precision damage + (Crit Multipliable damage * (1 + crit chance * (Crit Multiplier - 1))))

Not just your average damage. The rogue may have very solid precision damage but it sits very firmly outside of any benefit of crit multipliers or chance and he has generally a very low to hit. You can, if you work very hard, get it up to average levels for a martial.

Bards have the same hit chance and weapon selection, which is why I didn't add those numbers. However even with those numbers added in, your bard would be keeping pace with a rogue.

I'm not sure how a basic bard, with basic gear is pumping out 84 damage a round, every round at lvl 10, but it sounds really good. What is the build, and what's it using?

** spoiler omitted ** Honestly off the top of my head, and i kinda need to get to bed.

Edit: Oh We're using 24 AC? Then

(.85*41 + 20.5*2.3)*1.1= 90.2

I thought you meant non magic gear. I just gave SA numbers, not including a weapon, let alone magic weapons. A fully equipped rogue also does more damage than what you are proposing.

Give it a try. 62k gold, VS AC 24, 26 as well if you wish, level 10, 20 pb. You'll find that no he wont. Not even close


Bladelock wrote:
Well Bards usually require more focus on Cha, so unless there is a high buy in, a rogue will often have a higher Dex. Just as rogues will increase Cha, but Bards will usually have a higher Cha.

Not if Dex is their main attribute. Besides, a Bard can make do with Cha 14 and still never have a problem. A finesse Bard will likely have just as much Dex as a finesse Rogue. (Oh! And Bards can afford to lower their Wis a bit, since they have a good Will save).

Bladelock wrote:
You do realize that rogues can cast with wands? While the bard is self buffing, the rogue should be doing the same.

You mean, that stuff that costs money, have static CL, must be held in your hand, stopping you from using said hand to attack without sacrificing action economy and still isn't sure to succeed because UMD requires a skill check?

Yeah... I'm sure that's just as good as casting your own spells. (and completely exclusive to Rogues too!)

Bladelock wrote:
Also Bards do not have limitless bardic performances It is not some limitless well. SA never runs out. Rogues just aren't as bad as you guys are saying here.

I can honestly say I have never seen a Bard (or Barbarian) run out of Performance (or Rage) rounds after 6th level or so. I have seen many situations where Rogues couldn't use Sneak Attack because A)they weren't flanking because the Fighter had a different plan for the encounter B) Enemy had concealment and/or was immune to precision damage or, more commonly C) The Rogue simply couldn't hit the enemy more than once because their accuracy sucks.


Scavion wrote:
Bladelock wrote:

Well Bards usually require more focus on Cha, so unless there is a high buy in, a rogue will often have a higher Dex. Just as rogues will increase Cha, but Bards will usually have a higher Cha.

You do realize that rogues can cast with wands? While the bard is self buffing, the rogue should be doing the same.

Also Bards do not have limitless bardic performances It is not some limitless well. SA never runs out. Rogues just aren't as bad as you guys are saying here.

Well you spent about the same pointbuy on a 13 Int and atleast 12 Charisma.

Wands cost wealth mate which lets the Bard get more gold on you in other places. Wands are also notoriously expensive.

Bardic Performance has 23 rounds worth by 9th level. 4 rounds per combat for 4 combats a day leaves you plenty to spare.

Maybe that is PFS or something, because I have never been in campaigns that are so cookie cutter. Resources get stretched much much thinner. Could be all my GM's have been sadist. :)

As for wealth, a 750gp wand with 50c lasts about 50 combats. That is a good long time. Longer if you have a bloodline or talent that lets you do some of your own casting. Also with bards having no evasion, and no uncanny defense, they are much softer targets.

I get it. I'm in the minority. I just have had an easier time with rogues than you guys are describing.


Bladelock wrote:
Also with bards having no evasion, and no uncanny defense, they are much softer targets.

Evasion is okay, but not even close to being as good as having a second good save. Uncanny Dodge is meh, it mostly protects you against... Rogues.

A Good Will Save + defensive spells makes Bards far more resilient than Rogues.

Liberty's Edge

Lemmy wrote:
Bladelock wrote:
Also with bards having no evasion, and no uncanny defense, they are much softer targets.

Evasion is okay, but not even close to being as good as having a second good save. Uncanny Dodge is meh, it mostly protects you against... Rogues.

A Good Will Save + defensive spells makes Bards far more resilient than Rogues.

Indeed. I'd take Good Will Save and Mirror Image over Evasion and Uncanny Dodge any day.

Also, Archaeolgists have all four of those things...along with spellcasting and, with one Feat (Lingering Performance), enough rounds of luck to almost never run out (and thus keep up with the standard Bard, damage-wise).

So there's that.


Bladelock wrote:


As for wealth, a 750gp wand with 50c lasts about 50 combats. That is a good long time. Longer if you have a bloodline or talent that lets you do some of your own casting. Also with bards having no evasion, and no uncanny defense, they are much softer targets.

I get it. I'm in the minority. I just have had an easier time with rogues than you guys are describing.

What spell is that wand? Is it Heroism because those cost atleast 6,000 gold. Also keep in mind that a Wand takes up one of your hands.

Uncanny Dodge is only for surprise rounds which make up less than a fifth of encounters. Evasion lets you bypass the least lethal of effects, that being HP damage.

Mirror Image and Displacement tends to mitigate more damage than either of those generally would.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
Bladelock wrote:
Also with bards having no evasion, and no uncanny defense, they are much softer targets.

Evasion is okay, but not even close to being as good as having a second good save. Uncanny Dodge is meh, it mostly protects you against... Rogues.

A Good Will Save + defensive spells makes Bards far more resilient than Rogues.

Indeed. I'd take Good Will Save and Mirror Image over Evasion and Uncanny Dodge any day.

Also, Archaeolgists have all four of those things...along with spellcasting and, with one Feat (Lingering Performance), enough rounds of luck to almost never run out (and thus keep up with the standard Bard, damage-wise).

So there's that.

...and no SA. I know you guys hate it, but it works when I use it.


Bladelock wrote:
...and no SA. I know you guys hate it, but it works when I use it.

Hate it? No. We just think it's not good enough to carry a class. (Well, at very least, that's what I think, but it seems Scavion and DMW have similar opinions)

But let's think about 2 hypothetical situations (which comprise every situation ever, actually)...

1- The character is alone:
That means she can't flank, which means no Sneak Attack in any reliable way (TW-Feint could possibly work, but I already listed the limitations of that particular strategy). Bardic Performance and spells still work perfectly fine, though (and some spells last a really long time).

2- The character is with her party:
The Sneak Attack is possible (but not guaranteed), but it still can't compete with Bardic Performance and spells such as Haste on the "Who Boosts the Party's Combat Effectiveness The Most?" competition.

Sneak Attack is an okay mechanic on Vivisectionist Alchemists, since they have means to buff themselves (raising their accuracy and even getting a few extra attacks) and don't depend on it to be useful in combat. However, it's pretty underwhelming for Rogues, who have no other real offensive tool (and awful defenses as well).

EDIT: We have been comparing Rogues to Bards because they have very similar roles, but any Ranger, Alchemist, Inquisitor or full-caster (and even some Barbarian builds) who puts half a mind into it could obsolete Rogues just as easily.

Liberty's Edge

Bladelock wrote:
...and no SA. I know you guys hate it, but it works when I use it.

Spells + Luck/Performance are just flat-out better on average damage, as people have been saying for a while now.


Easiest question:

What is the CR of the standard encounters you run in for campaigns?

APL +2?
APL +3?

Honestly for most campaigns i play in, we don't even see anything lower than +2 and boss battles sit somewhere around APL +5. If your rogue is fighting in APL +0 of course he'll do well, because honestly the game is meant to be very easy at that level.


Bladelock, why not just post a build? You make bold claims about effectiveness but everytime youre asked for evidence you just seem to shift the topic.


Scavion wrote:
Bladelock wrote:


As for wealth, a 750gp wand with 50c lasts about 50 combats. That is a good long time. Longer if you have a bloodline or talent that lets you do some of your own casting. Also with bards having no evasion, and no uncanny defense, they are much softer targets.

I get it. I'm in the minority. I just have had an easier time with rogues than you guys are describing.

What spell is that wand? Is it Heroism because those cost atleast 6,000 gold. Also keep in mind that a Wand takes up one of your hands.

Uncanny Dodge is only for surprise rounds which make up less than a fifth of encounters. Evasion lets you bypass the least lethal of effects, that being HP damage.

Mirror Image and Displacement tends to mitigate more damage than either of those generally would.

I'm playing a Magus at the moment. However, I use to play a guy with three wands: Bless Weapon, Divine Favor, and Vanish. He was a Knife Master that used two Bloodletting Kukri.


750gp is a 1st level wand with CL 1. Can't see many of those being useful in combat beyond, I dunno... 3rd level? Especially, considering the character must be holding the wand and then use a standard action to activate it.

Here, this is my quick attempt at creating a half-decent Dex-based TWF Rogue.

Ragdy:
Ragdy
Male Half-Elf Rogue (Scout) 10
CN Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +6; Senses low-light vision; Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 25, touch 17, flat-footed 19 (+7 armor, +6 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 88 (10d8+40)
Fort +11, Ref +17 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +10; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion, trap sense +3; Immune sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 silversheen cestus +15/+10 (1d4+3/19-20) and
. . +2 silversheen cestus +15/+10 (1d4+2/19-20)
Ranged +1 composite shortbow +15/+10 (1d6+2/×3)
Special Attacks scout's charge, skirmisher, sneak attack +5d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +10; CMD 25
Feats Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Feint, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Feint, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (cestus)
Traits indomitable faith, resilient
Skills Acrobatics +19, Bluff +13, Diplomacy +13, Disable Device +24, Escape Artist +19, Perception +15 (+20 to locate traps), Sense Motive +13, Stealth +19, Use Magic Device +13; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Sylvan
SQ elf blood, rogue talents (combat trick, finesse rogue, offensive defense, opportunist, weapon training), trapfinding +5
Other Gear +3 mithral chain shirt, +1 shortbow, +2 silversheen cestus, +2 silversheen cestus, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of physical might (dex & con +2), cloak of resistance +3, ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, attack), ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), ring of protection +1, 1,060 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (7 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Improved Feint You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Offensive Defense (Ex) Sneak attack grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each die rolled vs. that foe.
Opportunist (1/round) (Ex) A foe who takes a melee hit from another provokes an AoO from you.
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Skirmisher (Ex) After move 10 ft, first attack deals sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Two-Weapon Feint Forgo first melee attack to feint

DPR Against AC 24:

Without Sneak attack: 12.54 (Why even botter drawing your weapons?)
Sneak Attack On The 1st Strike: 23.04 (Still not worth a party slot)
Sneak Attack On All Strikes: 45.79 (Pretty good. If only you weren't about to be turned into minced meat by the enemy...)
Flanking: 55.43 (Hopefully you will start every encounter with enemies already surrounded by you and your allies)

Assuming it successfully uses TW-Feint against an opponent with Dex 16: 42.18 (Basically sacrificing an attack for a +3 to hit)

Basically, at his best case scenario, Ragdy here has the same DPR of a 10th level unbuffed Warrior (You know, the NPC class), but worse saves, CMD, CMB and AC.

Liberty's Edge

Lemmy wrote:

750gp is a 1st level wand with CL 1. Can't see many of those being useful in combat beyond, I dunno... 3rd level? Especially, considering the character must be holding the wand and then use a standard action to activate it.

Here, this is my quick attempt at creating a half-decent TWF Rogue who keep up with .

** spoiler omitted **...

I'd make the cesti +1 Agile weapons and see what that does to DPR (and make Str 10 and Cha 12), but other than that, that looks like a solid build to beat.

Which someone will shortly, I suspect.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'd make the cesti +1 Agile weapons and see what that does to DPR (and make Str 10 and Cha 12), but other than that, that looks like a solid build to beat.

Which someone will shortly, I suspect.

Probably, yeah. I built Ragdy in under 5min and I tried to keep him close to what most players expect from the class.

I thought about making them Agile instead of getting a +2, but every little bit of accuracy helps with Rogues. I'd save that for next level. (Actually, I'd just play a different class, but you know what I mean)

Besides, the Agile enhancement might not be available. (Also, as I said before, I don't like depending on an specific enhancement)

Well... At least his saves aren't as awful as I expected (And I just had to invest a alternate racial feature and a trait to get his Will save to... 10. -.-')


Any reason for half-elf? Elf or gnome would get SLAs opening up for arcanestrike, human would get an extra general feat which could replace a rogue talent for minor magic (and again arcanestrike). +2 to hit/damage is good.


Ilja wrote:
Any reason for half-elf? Elf or gnome would get SLAs opening up for arcanestrike, human would get an extra general feat which could replace a rogue talent for minor magic (and again arcane strike). +2 to hit/damage is good.

I just like low-light vision, the +2 to will saves (+4 vs enchantment), immunity to sleep, Perception bonus and versatile racial attribute bonus. Arcane strike would take yet another feat and requires Minor Magic. I refuse to spend a "feat" on the ability to cast a single cantrip 3 times a day. ¬¬'

Half-Orc would be a superior choice, but it'd be too tempting to make it Str-based. :P


Ah isee. Elf still gets most of that but i see what you mean.

and i can fully understand your view of minor magic. I just think 2 feats for +2/+2 isnt so shabby, especially compared to say weapon focus.


Well, Arcane Strike only affects damage, and my priority was accuracy. Getting a +3 to all attacks is pretty nice, but TWFing Rogues have enough difficulty hitting stuff as it is. An additional +2 to damage rolls is probably not as useful as a an extra +1 to attack rolls.

Elves don't get the Dual Minded alternate racial trait and suffer that all-too-painful penalty to Con (and I don't like them, although, oddly enough, I'm okay with half-elves).

Liberty's Edge

Ilja wrote:
and i can fully understand your view of minor magic. I just think 2 feats for +2/+2 isnt so shabby, especially compared to say weapon focus.

Uh...Arcane Strike doesn't add to to-hit, just damage. Though it does add +3 at 10th level.

EDIT: Ninja'd!


Deadmanwalking wrote:
EDIT: Ninja'd!

If it was "Rogue'd" you wouldn't even have noticed. LOL.


Oh. I misremembered arcane strike completely. Yeah then its not a good option at all.

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