What the heck, a black dragon skeleton?!


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phantom1592 wrote:

Interesting interpretation... where do you get the idea that it doesn't?

For that matter where did the 'mostly intact' come from? I'll admit I haven't read much in ultimate magic or ever focused on necromancers... but just going off the Animate Dead spell...

You cut off too early. On the next page:

Quote:

Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is

made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.

Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a physical anatomy.

But yes, he shouldn't have had it in the first place.

-j


Jason Wu wrote:
phantom1592 wrote:

Interesting interpretation... where do you get the idea that it doesn't?

For that matter where did the 'mostly intact' come from? I'll admit I haven't read much in ultimate magic or ever focused on necromancers... but just going off the Animate Dead spell...

You cut off too early. On the next page:

Quote:

Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is

made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.

Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a physical anatomy.

But yes, he shouldn't have had it in the first place.

-j

Ahhhhhh Yeah, missed the second page :)

Still, I don't think I'd equate from 'intact' to mean 'assembled.' An intact skeleton should have most of its parts... Its not the kind of thing I would want the NPCs to have to deal with. I like the idea of the evil necromancer casting a spell and boney arms shooting from the ground as the dead start to rise. (Sadly the spell is still a 'touch' spell. :-/ )

I don't want them to be all prepared and wired and purified and polished... Takes most of the fun out of it.

Pile of bones standing up and walking?? YES PLEASE ^_^

Grand Lodge 5/5 ****

I also can't see that a pile of bones is an issue.

It certainly won't full attack in the first round as a pile of bones would have the prone condition - but from that it literally would just pick up itself.

phantom1592 wrote:


Pile of bones standing up and walking?? YES PLEASE ^_^

+1

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

phantom1592 wrote:
Still, I don't think I'd equate from 'intact' to mean 'assembled.' An intact skeleton should have most of its parts...

A disarticulated skeleton has all (or most of) it's parts, but it isn't 'intact'.

'Intact' is pretty much synonymous with 'assembled', in this case.

Similarly, an intact corpse would have all the limbs, etc., attached, not just gathered together into the same general vicinity.


Masterwork draconian anatomy tool?

The Exchange 5/5

John Francis wrote:
phantom1592 wrote:
Still, I don't think I'd equate from 'intact' to mean 'assembled.' An intact skeleton should have most of its parts...

A disarticulated skeleton has all (or most of) it's parts, but it isn't 'intact'.

'Intact' is pretty much synonymous with 'assembled', in this case.

Similarly, an intact corpse would have all the limbs, etc., attached, not just gathered together into the same general vicinity.

often an animated - but not active - skeleton in a scenario is described as "a pile of bones", and will be undetectable to the PCs until they (insert trigger action).

Using a retired scenario for example, First Steps Part II had this.

But I guess it's ok for NPCs, authors and judges to do this, just not for PCs...


John Francis wrote:
phantom1592 wrote:
Still, I don't think I'd equate from 'intact' to mean 'assembled.' An intact skeleton should have most of its parts...

A disarticulated skeleton has all (or most of) it's parts, but it isn't 'intact'.

'Intact' is pretty much synonymous with 'assembled', in this case.

Similarly, an intact corpse would have all the limbs, etc., attached, not just gathered together into the same general vicinity.

I think that's reading too much into intact. Intact also just means complete.

1/5

Can we just ban Animate Dead from society play already? That spell only serves to cause problems in a campaign where being evil isn't allowed. No matter how you try to slice it, animating the dead is evil.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

intact is a nitpick ...I challenge you go out ... dig up a skeleton ... tell me .. is it "intact" or are the bones separated from each other -

this is purly hate against the spell - and that hate infests these boards I don't like the Idea of banning it from society play but if it happens it happens but under the argument of evil .. should we ban infernal healing ? Negative energy channeling ? its all in the same basket

answer honestly - does allowing someone to animate dead ruin your play experience ? or does your incessant complaining about him using it ruin his and others play experience

then who is being a jerk ...

Personally if the player went above and beyond to catalog rare and unique bones he collected ... as well as made a believable attempt to store the bones (Portable hole or bag of holding type 5 ) whats the problem other than the spell is hated

Bones have no listed cost period ... does that mean you cant get it ? I guess if you go down that line than other spells that have material components without a listed cost you cant get regardless of spell component pouches ... "you want to cast fireball ? sorry but bat guano mixed with sulfur has no listed cost so you cant have it" its an absurd mentality

Grand Lodge 4/5

Wraith, the body to animate is not a material component. The material component of Animate Dead is the onyx you use.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

yes I realize that ... you cant cast the spell without the onyx ... or the corpse .... the component is consumed the target is animated ... they operate hand in hand ... its still the same mentality

as long as you have a corpse to target
corpses have no cost
neither do basic spell components

so by the argument that you cant have something with no cost follow the thought back

Dark Archive 3/5

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I have always seen animating the dead as neutral and green. Why litter and leave bones lying around while you can recycle them? It is a practicality. They are not using their corpses anymore, so why shouldn't you? As long as you don't do anything evil with the corpses then why should it be evil? If it is about the dead objecting to your using their corpses without their permission, kindly point out that they are like a child trying to hog all of the toys; even the ones not they are not playing with. Also, I can see an argument for good in that the corpses can be used for dangerous jobs without endangering innocents, thus protecting people. And you can even instruct you zombies to go around and hold doors for people and random small acts of kindness. This shall be a thing now.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Wraith235 wrote:

yes I realize that ... you cant cast the spell without the onyx ... or the corpse .... the component is consumed the target is animated ... they operate hand in hand ... its still the same mentality

as long as you have a corpse to target
corpses have no cost
neither do basic spell components

so by the argument that you cant have something with no cost follow the thought back

"Following the thought back" requires you to ignore the explicit rule allowing you to have no cost spell components, which doesn't exist for corpses.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:

yes I realize that ... you cant cast the spell without the onyx ... or the corpse .... the component is consumed the target is animated ... they operate hand in hand ... its still the same mentality

as long as you have a corpse to target
corpses have no cost
neither do basic spell components

so by the argument that you cant have something with no cost follow the thought back

"Following the thought back" requires you to ignore the explicit rule allowing you to have no cost spell components, which doesn't exist for corpses.

you have validated my point entirely ..

and now continue with your argument - where does it say that it doesn't exist for corpses ... because I know of nothing regarding that

they aren't considered "Loot" as mentioned in the PFSGOP as there is no value to them ... so again - whats the problem


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Indeed. Having to rig up a skeleton like a class room prop is a pretty draconian interpretation of "intact" for the purpose of that spell.

The Exchange 5/5

Side note on Animate Dead: I remember playing in a home game where there was a little mountain country (picture Tibet) where it was common practice to Animate Dead on your ancestors.

Enter a party of adventurers, on arriving in town in this little mountain country, found a Zombie chasing children is a fenced in yard. And did what adventurers do, only to be arrested for chopping up "Great Aunt Magrat". They had to pay to have her put back to gether and pay for the trama caused to the children who had been playing Zombie Tag with her. Real culture shock. Different cultures, different customs, different campaigns.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Wraith235 wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:

yes I realize that ... you cant cast the spell without the onyx ... or the corpse .... the component is consumed the target is animated ... they operate hand in hand ... its still the same mentality

as long as you have a corpse to target
corpses have no cost
neither do basic spell components

so by the argument that you cant have something with no cost follow the thought back

"Following the thought back" requires you to ignore the explicit rule allowing you to have no cost spell components, which doesn't exist for corpses.

you have validated my point entirely ..

and now continue with your argument - where does it say that it doesn't exist for corpses ... because I know of nothing regarding that

they aren't considered "Loot" as mentioned in the PFSGOP as there is no value to them ... so again - whats the problem

I haven't validated your point at all. The fact that there are explicit rules on what you can and cannot purchase means that unless they show up in a valid resource as a purchasable item, you cannot purchase them. "No listed cost" is not the same as "free."

The rules say you can have spell components with no listed cost because they're in your spell component pouch. The rules don't have any allowance for purchasing skeletons, so you're stuck with whatever you find in your current scenario/module.

4/5 *

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Wraith - spell component pouches contain spell components with no cost - so you can indeed have all of those items with no cost. But, a corpse is NOT a spell component, just like a person is not a component for Enlarge Person. It is the target of the spell, and is NOT included in the spell component pouch. You also can't buy corpses, because they have no associated cost in any published legal source.

The only way to obtain a corpse by the rules is to "make" it yourself.

As to the "intact" issue - skeletons cannot actually be intact without any tissue - bones don't connect to bones, no matter what the song says. The presence of most of the bones in close proximity should satisfy the "intact" requirement.

Grand Lodge 4/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Wraith - spell component pouches contain spell components with no cost - so you can indeed have all of those items with no cost. But, a corpse is NOT a spell component, just like a person is not a component for Enlarge Person. It is the target of the spell, and is NOT included in the spell component pouch. You also can't buy corpses, because they have no associated cost in any published legal source.

The only way to obtain a corpse by the rules is to "make" it yourself.

As to the "intact" issue - skeletons cannot actually be intact without any tissue - bones don't connect to bones, no matter what the song says. The presence of most of the bones in close proximity should satisfy the "intact" requirement.

Although if you wanted to get Flutter mad at you, you could purchase a legal animal from, say, Animal Archive and kill it at the start of the session.

4/5 *

That's one (ingenious) way to "make" a corpse... and get around all those pesky Handle Animal checks at the same time!

1/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
I haven't validated your point at all. The fact that there are explicit rules on what you can and cannot purchase means that unless they show up in a valid resource as a purchasable item, you cannot purchase them. "No listed cost" is not the same as "free."

Under your rationale, a character couldn't posses a bag of dirt, or a tree branch, or bunch of flowers. The problem in this case is that no one has contemplated this. I give the person who did this credit for creative thinking.

From a rules perspective, I'm not convinced a character can't hold on to a bag of bones after a scenario. Since the bones don't represent an increase in wealth, it doesn't violate the "it must be purchased" rules. The issue you have is fairness, and there is no way to prove the onyx material cost isn't a fair trade off for the ability use this spell repeatedly.

The only real issue I'd have is that the damage to the creature should be cumulative and unrepairable, even with negative energy. So any particular set of bones should have a finite damage that it can withstand before the skeleton/corpse is no longer "intact." Obviously this would problematic in PFS.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

N N 959 wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
I haven't validated your point at all. The fact that there are explicit rules on what you can and cannot purchase means that unless they show up in a valid resource as a purchasable item, you cannot purchase them. "No listed cost" is not the same as "free."

Under your rationale, a character couldn't posses a bag of dirt, or a tree branch, or bunch of flowers. The problem in this case is that no one has contemplated this. I give the person who did this credit for creative thinking.

From a rules perspective, I'm not convinced a character can't hold on to a bag of bones after a scenario. Since the bones don't represent an increase in wealth, it doesn't violate the "it must be purchased" rules. The issue you have is fairness, and there is no way to prove the onyx material cost isn't a fair trade off for the ability use this spell repeatedly.

The only real issue I'd have is that the damage to the creature should be cumulative and unrepairable, even with negative energy. So any particular set of bones should have a finite damage that it can withstand before the skeleton/corpse is no longer "intact." Obviously this would problematic in PFS.

PFS has that part covered ... animated dead do not carry over from scenario to scenario

Grand Lodge 4/5

N N 959 wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
I haven't validated your point at all. The fact that there are explicit rules on what you can and cannot purchase means that unless they show up in a valid resource as a purchasable item, you cannot purchase them. "No listed cost" is not the same as "free."
Under your rationale, a character couldn't posses a bag of dirt, or a tree branch, or bunch of flowers. The problem in this case is that no one has contemplated this. I give the person who did this credit for creative thinking.

Even ignoring the fact that as far as I can tell, by RAW this is correct, none of those things have as big a mechanical impact as a dead body.

Boy that was a weird sentence.

N N 959 wrote:


From a rules perspective, I'm not convinced a character can't hold on to a bag of bones after a scenario. Since the bones don't represent an increase in wealth, it doesn't violate the "it must be purchased" rules. The issue you have is fairness, and there is no way to prove the onyx material cost isn't a fair trade off for the ability use this spell repeatedly.

Increase in wealth or not, it's an increase in available power.

N N 959 wrote:


The only real issue I'd have is that the damage to the creature should be cumulative and unrepairable, even with negative energy. So any particular set of bones should have a finite damage that it can withstand before the skeleton/corpse is no longer "intact." Obviously this would problematic in PFS.

You can't animate previously animated bodies, and the spell doesn't carry over between scenarios, so that's not a problem.


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I remember way back when in the infancy of PFS, before the Weapon Cord had actual rules, it was specifically ruled that you could not tie weapons to your belt with string. One of the reasons given was that there was no string in the rules at that time, therefore it does not exist.

-j

Liberty's Edge 4/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Somewhat related is the Bones mystery revelation Raise Dead, which lets you summon a skeleton or zombie. No corpse is required. So you can have your black dragon skeleton that way, as long as you have at least as many oracle levels as its hit dice.

1/5

Jason Wu wrote:

I remember way back when in the infancy of PFS, before the Weapon Cord had actual rules, it was specifically ruled that you could not tie weapons to your belt with string. One of the reasons given was that there was no string in the rules at that time, therefore it does not exist.

-j

Funny.

Sovereign Court 2/5

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Robert A Matthews wrote:
Can we just ban Animate Dead from society play already? That spell only serves to cause problems in a campaign where being evil isn't allowed. No matter how you try to slice it, animating the dead is evil.

Because moral absolutism makes sense!

Please stop, this has been debated to death and this is not the place to bring this up.

Besides, the most constructive use of this spell is on creatures without class levels (as an animated dead loses all of its HD gained from class levels). As humanoid NPCs generally have class levels, therefore non-humanoids make the best undead. And 90% of the time, nobody pays much mind if you raise a purple worm or an evil dragon. Or something.

Banning something is not a constructive response to someone not reading the rules properly and misusing it.

1/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
Increase in wealth or not, it's an increase in available power.

So is the purchasing of a club...which has no cost. So increasing power for no cost does not preclude an action. Magic Stone requires you have three pebbles. Are you telling me that as a Druid I can't have three pebbles off the ground from scenario to scenario? That would be ludicrous. The skeleton is the same thing in principle.

Quote:
You can't animate previously animated bodies, and the spell doesn't carry over between scenarios, so that's not a problem.

That's not what the rules say....

Animate Dead excerpt wrote:
The undead can be made to follow you, or they can be made to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. A destroyed skeleton or zombie can't be animated again.

You can't animate a "destroyed" skeleton. It does not say you cannot reanimate a previously animated skeleton. What you are apparently connecting the dots on is the fact the creature remains until destroyed and reasoning that since the spell can't last past a scenario, the creature must be destroyed. That's not RAW. What is true is that if animate dead were dispelled then the bones could certainly be reanimated.

Grant it, if PFS were to rule on this, I'm betting they go with skeleton is destroyed. But I see nothing in the rules, PFS or PF that automatically precludes the possession of a corpse from one scenario to another.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/55/5

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ARGH! wrote:
I have always seen animating the dead as neutral and green.

Oh No. Those do NOT go in the recycling bin.

Sets pointy stick on fire

Shadow Lodge 5/5

N N 959 wrote:


You can't animate a "destroyed" skeleton. It does not say you cannot reanimate a previously animated skeleton. What you are apparently connecting the dots on is the fact the creature remains until destroyed and reasoning that since the spell can't last past a scenario, the creature must be destroyed. That's not RAW. What is true is that if animate dead were dispelled then the bones could certainly be reanimated.

Grant it, if PFS were to rule on this, I'm betting they go with skeleton is destroyed. But I see nothing in the rules, PFS or PF that automatically precludes the possession of a corpse from one scenario to another.

the only way to end a "Permenant spell" is to destroy it ... I am fully behind the Idea of dragging corpses around with you but Unfortunatly I would have to treat it as a consumable based on how PFS Ruled Permenant spell effects functioned at the end of a scenario


Wraith235 wrote:
Negative energy channeling ?

Nitpick time!

No. Negative energy channeling is not inherently evil. It is dangerous, but a Neutral worshiper of Gozreh could use it and not even be remotely compromised in his morality. It is not the same thing as Animate Dead or Infernal Healing (spells which are explicitly marked as evil).

Sovereign Court 2/5

N N 959 wrote:
What is true is that if animate dead were dispelled then the bones could certainly be reanimated.

You cannot use dispel magic to "unanimate" an animated undead creature.

prd wrote:

DISPEL MAGIC

School abjuration; Level bard 3, cleric 3, druid 4, paladin 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area one spellcaster, creature, or object
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You can use dispel magic to end one ongoing spell that has been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, or to counter another spellcaster's spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can't be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells. The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can't be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.
prd wrote:

ANIMATE DEAD

School necromancy [evil]; Level cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (an onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead)
Range touch
Targets one or more corpses touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Animate Dead, as an instantaneous spell, does not have a duration and is not ongoing
prd wrote:
Instantaneous: The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

As such, there is no way to dispel it, as you can only dispel an ongoing magical effect. There is no ongoing magic with animated dead. So no, you can't spell sunder it either (even though that would be absolutely hilarious).

Animate Dead does not have an expiration either, so really the only way to get an undead creature to stop being undead is to destroy it.


Acedio wrote:
Animate Dead does not have an expiration either, so really the only way to get an undead creature to stop being undead is to destroy it.

Well, that and they magically poof away in some manner when the scenario ends if I remember correctly.

Sovereign Court 2/5

MrSin wrote:
Acedio wrote:
Animate Dead does not have an expiration either, so really the only way to get an undead creature to stop being undead is to destroy it.
Well, that and they magically poof away in some manner when the scenario ends if I remember correctly.

Yes sir, but highly certain that part of that magical "poofing" involves destruction of the body that was animated. It doesn't make sense that you could kill a Dragon in one scenario, hoard it's bones, and then bring it to the next adventure when you consider what happens to everything else you pick up. It all goes to the society (don't ask me what they'd want with some bro's bones, though).


Acedio wrote:
don't ask me what they'd want with some bro's bones, though

Eh, not the first time they told me to give them a body. Oddly enough I once had a GM insist I couldn't bring them a live specimen and I had to kill a npc for its organ. Long story.

1/5

Acedio wrote:
It doesn't make sense that you could kill a Dragon in one scenario, hoard it's bones, and then bring it to the next adventure when you consider what happens to everything else you pick up. It all goes to the society (don't ask me what they'd want with some bro's bones, though).

Sure it does. I can pick up a wooden log and call it a club and I get to keep it from then on as a club. The next adventure I could cast Shillelagh on it. Some dead bones would be categorically no different other than the bones would be consumed.

1/5

Acedio wrote:
Animate Dead does not have an expiration either, so really the only way to get an undead creature to stop being undead is...

Technically, I believe True Resurrection would reverse being turned into an undead creature, as is the case with Animate Dead. But for practical purposes, you are correct.

Liberty's Edge

N N 959 wrote:
Acedio wrote:
Animate Dead does not have an expiration either, so really the only way to get an undead creature to stop being undead is...
Technically, I believe True Resurrection would reverse being turned into an undead creature, as is the case with Animate Dead. But for practical purposes, you are correct.
PRD wrote:
You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.

Dark Archive 3/5

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

One quick bit of help for Sumedocin, since my wife's necromancer has the same issue...

Sumedocin wrote:
I already know about the onyx cost, because I will have to buy different value onyx gems ahead of time and guess at a creature's HD when I want to raise it.

If you're a wizard, the arcane discovery Yuelral's Blessing will let you substitute random gems for arcane material components, so you won't have to guess what size onyx gems you need ahead of time.

5/5 ** RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

As a GM, I'm willing to consider a character's past experience when considering what items or knowledge he may possess in addition to items specifically purchased. As an example, a character who just faced down a nest of ghouls should have a significant advantage when attempting to check whether the undead he faces are more ghouls. One of my players had his character commission a copy of an Aspis Consortium badge he had "found", noting it on his chronicle sheet: This masterwork Bluff tool (along with his maxed-out Bluff skill and darned mask of stony visage) recently made a scenario that featured the Aspis go hilariously off track...

Despite this, GMs have to keep such advantages "in check". Something that gives a modest circumstance bonus is reasonable: Something that allows a game-breaking undead into play is not. Although the player's argument for his character's advantage is reasonable, it must be disallowed from a game balance perspective.

Grand Lodge

terraleon wrote:
Robert A Matthews wrote:
Can we just ban Animate Dead from society play already? That spell only serves to cause problems in a campaign where being evil isn't allowed. No matter how you try to slice it, animating the dead is evil.

What what?

Where do you get that from? Why is animating the dirt, or a statue, or a rope not evil, but animating meat and bone evil?

Scary, sure, but where is the evil in animating a pile of bones?

-Ben.

Regardless of Robert's opinions, I believe the someone from Paizo made the statement that in Pathfinder animating the dead is an evil act. It can be countered with good acts, and you don't have to be evil to animate the dead, but that the act itself is a blight upon the world.

Liberty's Edge

A type 1 bag of holding can hold up to 30 cu. ft. or 250 lb. (total contents) of non sharp objects (see core rulebook, pg.500). Given these parameters, a corpse plus the bag's other contents might be too heavy, or a clawed skeleton might rupture the bag. Note that, in such an instance, both the bag and all its contents are destroyed and lost forever. Moreover,the use of animate dead is an evil act which might move the character's alignment towards evil- thus forcing the character to be removed from Pathfinder Society play.

3/5

Casting evil spells in PFS does not constitute an evil act. This has been gone over a lot, and I refuse to dig it up again.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Nathan Hartshorn wrote:
Casting evil spells in PFS does not constitute an evil act. This has been gone over a lot, and I refuse to dig it up again.

Provided it doesn't violate any other codes or ethics. Do not use if nursing, pregnant, or may become pregnant (even by polymorph). If evil persists for more than four hours, contact a physician in the Aspis consortium.

1/5

Diego Rossi wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
Acedio wrote:
Animate Dead does not have an expiration either, so really the only way to get an undead creature to stop being undead is...
Technically, I believe True Resurrection would reverse being turned into an undead creature, as is the case with Animate Dead. But for practical purposes, you are correct.
PRD wrote:
You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.

That's right. At the end of the scenario, when it's destroyed, you collect its remains. A the start of the next scenario, resurrect it, kill it, and you'd have another pile of bones to use. Not practical, but possible.

Sovereign Court 2/5

Except there's nothing suggesting anywhere that you get to keep the remains across scenarios.

The Guide to Organized Play says that you must purchase any gear you collect in order for it to persist to the next scenario. There is no provision saying that you can keep anything across scenarios that you haven't purchased, with some very specific exceptions (such as some boons). People often allow you to keep things like skulls or animal heads so long as they are cosmetic and for flavor only, and do not provide a mechanical function. You get it because for the purposes of play, it provides no benefit, and does not change the flow of the game. A body that you intend to animate has a mechanical benefit. If the thing you're collecting starts providing a mechanical function, then it is no longer free.

If you wanted to raise the skeleton of a creature you had killed in a previous scenario, you would have to find a corpse for that creature on the market. Good luck doing that.

This is just one of the limits of animate dead - only effective on things you kill during the scenario.

1/5

Acedio wrote:

Except there's nothing suggesting anywhere that you get to keep the remains across scenarios.

The Guide to Organized Play says that you must purchase any gear you collect in order for it to persist to the next scenario.

There's a number of items, including weapons that don't have any listed cost...so give it a rest already.

Sovereign Court 2/5

N N 959 wrote:
Acedio wrote:

Except there's nothing suggesting anywhere that you get to keep the remains across scenarios.

The Guide to Organized Play says that you must purchase any gear you collect in order for it to persist to the next scenario.

There's a number of items, including weapons that don't have any listed cost...so give it a rest already.

So my whole problem with this conversation is that you are spreading false information in a topic discussing how the practice you are advocating has become a problem. My posts are relevant for the topic, and are routinely demonstrating that your thoughts on how this should work have no basis in the rules and are incorrect.

There's a difference between a documented item from the core rulebook having an unlisted cost, such as a club, and fabricating an item out of story fluff and saying you get to keep it. It doesn't have a cost, yes, because you made it up. Fine for a homebrew, not cool for PFS.

I would rather see you "give it a rest" until you can provide some evidence from the Guide to Organized Play that indicates that you can, in fact, carry the remains of a specific corpse from one scenario to the other. If you cannot do that, then this conversation needs to die so that people reading the topic don't start doing what the TC is complaining about, because it's a violation of the rules, and demonstrably a problem.

And how about you don't be so rude? Thanks.

1/5

Acedio wrote:

There's a difference between a documented item from the core rulebook having an unlisted cost, such as a club, and fabricating an item out of story fluff and saying you get to keep it. It doesn't have a cost, yes, because you made it up.

He didn't fabricate an item out of story fluff. He took an item listed in the scenario that has no associated cost and cleverly used it in another scenario.

Categorically, no different that my taking three pebbles off the ground, carrying them into a scenario with no pebbles, and using them for Magic Stone or casting light on it and tossing it down a cave. You keep falsely asserting that if an item has no cost, you can't keep it. Wrong.

His real problem was that he was too effective with it and people got offended by it. His real problem was that he killed everything with it so now you're trying to conjure up ways to stop it from happening again.

He did it once, the skeleton was consumed. So yeah, give it a rest.


N N 959 wrote:

He didn't fabricate an item out of story fluff. He took an item listed in the scenario that has no associated cost and cleverly used it in another scenario.

Categorically, no different that my taking three pebbles off the ground, carrying them into a scenario with no pebbles, and using them. You keep falsely asserting that if an item has no cost, you can't keep it. Wrong.

For what its worth, black dragon skeletons are at least slightly more rare than a few pebbles, and he was using it for a mechanical benefit. Allowing things from another scenario to go into another opens up a lot of options, some better than others, and as far as I know isn't something that happens in pathfinder society. It also isn't something that can easily be referenced in a book, like say, a mundane weapon from the CRB or that magical item you got out of ultimate equipment and brought the reference for.

Also, items with no cost in the weapons section are free last I checked. A club and quarterstaff are just really nice sticks if I remember right.

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