Traveltime from Settlement to nearest Settlement, what do you think?


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

Looking at the map, I noticed that any Settlement Hex is no further away from another Settlement then 2-4 hexes (not counting the Settlement hex itself).

We also know the size of a single hex in meters. I also recall there was a post about how many meters a player would cover by simply running (not sure of this was on roads or not).

I am trying to figure out how long it would take to run between two settlements, not using roads. This in relation to this post I made about transport times.

Quote:

I think here lies Goblinworks biggest challenge: in order for the Game of Settlements and accompanying Economy(based on resources) to work, it needs to take time and risk to transport goods across the world.

I can see how a haul of goods can be fun for a merchant, if it succeeds and pays off big time: a bit like winning the lottery every time. Any guards that the merchant has managed to convince to come along seem to have a conflicting interest in the journey though: they probably will want some action, unless the pay-off for the guards is also of lottery-proportions. Anything less and it will feel like doing a menial task for chump change.

Now the variables of Pay-out per journey and Danger I can see get balanced by the mechanic of Supply and Demand. Extreme danger creates large Demand over time causing substantial Pay-off.

So in the end I think it will come down mostly on a single variable: how long will an average journey take? I think all of this can be made fun by making sure the average traveltime of a "hop" is not too long.

I expect traveltime to be tweaked big time during EE.

When the average haul between settlements is only like 10-15 minutes, I can see this mechanic of transporting goods work: it will be short enough to create a lot of traffic, and will appeal to the "one-armed bandit factor": lots of chances, quick results. Because of the short duration, I think even solo-people will try their hand at doing a few runs, even it they can not take much with them. The longer a haul takes, the fewer journeys will be made and the bigger the chance is that Bandits will set up some trap(up to a 100% chance). So many short-duration hauls >> fewer long duration hauls, for balance and fun-factor.

Short-duration hauls also benefit the concept of making friends/alliances with other settlements: this way you can "hop" your goods in 15-minute increments across Friendly Settlements.

Settlements that isolate themselves will have a harder time, since they may have to do much longer duration hauls. They can be fun too, since you are almost 100% sure of a fight. :)

So, traveltime! :) I am pulling the 10-15 minutes out of my hat, but once the resource economy takes off, I expect a lot of feedback from the players about this.

There are a few unknowns here: I take it that caravans (once implemented) will only be allowed to take roads, so traveltimes for them will be longer. Also Fast-travel will use roads (4x speed as I recall), so the 2-4 hex rule does not apply there.

So I am mostly interested what time a player running overland would take to reach a settlement 2-4 hexes away.

Goblin Squad Member

Time is the Fire in which We Burn discussed the physics of 4x time with respect to traveling across hexes. However, that was when hexes were expected to be about 1.5 km across, before they were subdivided. Stephen Cheney recently verified the actual hex sizes:

We checked with Mike this morning and they're essentially 2km for every three hexes in a line (flat side to flat side). That means it's around 680m flat to flat and 780m point to point.

Since it took 15 minutes to travel 1.5 km, I think it's a safe assumption to think it will take 20 minutes to travel 2.0 km. Once that's modified by the 4x time rate, it should take about 5 minutes to cross three hexes. I think that's obviously not using Fast Travel, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's also not using any Sprint or other movement-enhancing effects.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks, Nihimon, that was the number I was looking for. 5 minutes for 3 hexes, assuming a straight line, sounds right. Such a short time-span means that a solo player could most likely get a few simple tradegoods across to a neighbouring settlement that is friendly to him, without getting ambushed by bandits every time.

I am not saying this is a viable method to supply another settlement with resources, but I think it is good to know that travel between 2 neighbouring and friendly settlements does not always have to be a drawn out and risky undertaking. I was a bit afraid that all inter-settlement travel needed to be a group-effort.

PS: I use the name "bandits" freely to indicate *any* player that means harm to you, be it for a SAD, due to War, Faction or Feud and so forth.

Goblin Squad Member

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On the flip side maybe merchants will be less cautious because "it's just a small trip to the next town over". I'm more worried about if your neighbor is a chaotic evil, demon worshiping, power hungry, warmongering state of lunatics (And you're not one yourself). I imagine it would feel like waging war on your next door neighbor.

Of cause I could be wrong and you could get along swimmingly with just that distance. ^^

Please don't hurt me.

Goblin Squad Member

Yes, having an enemy settlement nearby certainly will make such a short trip more risky. This is one of the things I am lookging forward too: how the "colors" of the map will look like after a while. I am sure at one point I will get a bout of "wanderlust" and will want to cross the map from North to South, solo. I am most curious how the route will look like that I will have to plan across several settlements. :)

Goblin Squad Member

It's funny you should mention it because I plan to find a nice inn to settle down in and then never move. Of cause it is rather unlikely I'd actually be allowed to do that. Sooner or later I'd run out of money so I'd have to venture outside, and risk death, or worse... Maybe I can get a job as a barmaid? ^^'

Goblin Squad Member

Vaienna wrote:
It's funny you should mention it because I plan to find a nice inn to settle down in and then never move. Of cause it is rather unlikely I'd actually be allowed to do that. Sooner or later I'd run out of money so I'd have to venture outside, and risk death, or worse... Maybe I can get a job as a barmaid? ^^'

The Empyrean Order has a nice kickstarter tavern that should come about eventually. We're pretty sure that those chaotic evil demon-worshipers are not really the type to come hang out with us, so it should be relatively safe. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Inns are one of my favorite subjects. In fact I made a whole list of questions about them in the "Video Blog Ask your questions" thread.

Curious about Inns

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

Time is the Fire in which We Burn discussed the physics of 4x time with respect to traveling across hexes. However, that was when hexes were expected to be about 1.5 km across, before they were subdivided. Stephen Cheney recently verified the actual hex sizes:

We checked with Mike this morning and they're essentially 2km for every three hexes in a line (flat side to flat side). That means it's around 680m flat to flat and 780m point to point.
Since it took 15 minutes to travel 1.5 km, I think it's a safe assumption to think it will take 20 minutes to travel 2.0 km. Once that's modified by the 4x time rate, it should take about 5 minutes to cross three hexes. I think that's obviously not using Fast Travel, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's also not using any Sprint or other movement-enhancing effects.

I would like to hear more about this rationale from the devs.

I assume an actual settlement will try to beat off any other settlement too near, until such as time as they sponsor a CC to claim the area and or settlement hex for them?

Goblinworks Game Designer

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I just tested it. At 100% speed (i.e., not encumbered and not sprinting), it takes about two and a half minutes to cross flat to flat on a hex (or center to center across the flat side rather than a corner). That's going straight, so anything you have to go around like monsters or mountains will obviously impact that travel time. If I did the math right, I think that makes our 100% speed functionally about 4.44 m/s, 14.6 ft/s, or 10 mph.

Those speeds may change somewhat, but probably not very much. Additionally, once we get tech in to make roads faster and other forms of fast travel, it will likely decrease. But if you're heavily laden and/or using a caravan, it will probably increase.

CEO, Goblinworks

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I would throw out the old assumptions about time & speed. We are going to balance the distance you travel based on some theory of fun, not physics.

Goblin Squad Member

Nice info. That seems quite small travel time to me: Is that to ensure "the overcrowded rats start fighting each other" or players are able to achieve "meaningful" tasts without too much boring travel overhead making the game onerous?

CEO, Goblinworks

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In EVE, it takes a minute or two to travel from one star system to another. That's about the pace I like for Pathfinder Online. And like in EVE, the place you want to go is likely a lot more than one segment away from where you are. If it takes 10-15 minutes of travel on a regular basis, I think that sets a good pace and gives distance meaning without asking people to forgo an afternoon to get somewhere interesting.

Goblin Squad Member

Sounds great, those numbers was what I was hoping for. There was some concern that stuff like "Guard-duty" for a merchant with a caravan would not be a viable option because it would either be boring (nothing happens) or a sure fight because of the length of the journey (merchant not happy).

With these traveltimes it will probably be a lot easier to get a few people to tag along (a 2-15 minute journey) to the next friendly Settlement for some coin.

Off course if you want to haul something 80 hexes away, you have to plan a little better but you could easily plan this across 2 or 3 evenings.

Goblin Squad Member

@Tyncale, I expect there will be at least 3 types of caravans: settlement-sponsored groups (including guards) that are shifting their production to a market where they hope to get better coin; settlement-sponsored groups that have gone to another settlement or trade hub (NPC town?) to get some needed resources; and independent merchants trying to get a jump on the other two. The first two may use some mix of hired and volunteer guards, for instance; boring will be an accepted civic requirement for some.

Goblin Squad Member

I suppose that density might help players patrol/control their territory in the suitable numbers too as a MVPopulation size for a settlement.

Goblin Squad Member

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@Urman. Yes, sounds right. Apart from the caravans that are most likely hauling bulk goods, I am wondering if there is a place for solo-couriers. I realize they can not carry much, but they could fetch you a few quick ingredients or a part that a crafter needs, becuase he has run out, and the city has none available in its auctionhouse.

I can see the /shouts in a settlement already: "Armorsmith needs a runner for 3 Skymetal and 2 Quicksilver, collect in Brighthaven, 7 hex run!"

That would be awesome. With these short traveltimes, things like that become viable.

This is just one example of a "resource-flow". We have not heard everything yet about PoI's like Farms and Mines and such, but I am guessing there will be many kinds of resourceflows, from huge, protected Bulk shipments across a long distance from one settlement to another that is really craving the resource, to short and dangerous hauls from PoI's to its Settlement, to the above courier example to the lone harvester that hit a rich vein (and happened to have a good kit with him) that tries to make it home safe with his pockets bulging with gems.

Goblin Squad Member

And half of the guards protecting those bulk shipments are carrying a little something 'their cousin' assures them has a market at the destination.

Goblin Squad Member

This is exactly what the larger settlements and/or kingdoms are going to have to watch when deciding where to place the settlements within their "sphere of influence". If they are trading inside that sphere and can patrol most of it internally while conducting internal trade, that's awesome and will increase their settlements for a time with minimal risk.

However, after several months or a year or so, this will be very limiting and the larger groups will be more sprawling. At that point staying inside the safety of your settlement or kingdom sphere of influence will be less possible, as trade will have to happen on a larger scale, covering greater distances, including more and more settlements outside your small family of hexes.

And this is when things will become very interesting.

Goblin Squad Member

Hardin Steele wrote:

This is exactly what the larger settlements and/or kingdoms are going to have to watch when deciding where to place the settlements within their "sphere of influence". If they are trading inside that sphere and can patrol most of it internally while conducting internal trade, that's awesome and will increase their settlements for a time with minimal risk.

However, after several months or a year or so, this will be very limiting and the larger groups will be more sprawling. At that point staying inside the safety of your settlement or kingdom sphere of influence will be less possible, as trade will have to happen on a larger scale, covering greater distances, including more and more settlements outside your small family of hexes.

And this is when things will become very interesting.

Yeah, but that is when rough tough soldiers will shine. Are you ready for the spotlight? :)

Goblin Squad Member

Tyncale wrote:

@Urman. Yes, sounds right. Apart from the caravans that are most likely hauling bulk goods, I am wondering if there is a place for solo-couriers. I realize they can not carry much, but they could fetch you a few quick ingredients or a part that a crafter needs, becuase he has run out, and the city has none available in its auctionhouse.

I can see the /shouts in a settlement already: "Armorsmith needs a runner for 3 Skymetal and 2 Quicksilver, collect in Brighthaven, 7 hex run!"

--

I had a similar idea but with some extension. It would be nice if the various travel systems would enable wide-spread courier services to exist. The service would have agents in various settlements to ensure fast delivery across long distances and undoubtedly hostile lands for an agreeable price :)

"Need that Tier 3 armour set delivered across 15 hexes of warring factions? In 30 minutes? Silver Horn courier company is your friend."

This would of course require some limitations on the fast travels to make these services interesting.

Goblin Squad Member

I like that idea, plopmania, I think it all depends on how busy and lucrative trade will be, how large the resource-flows will be and also player-density (which again depends on success of the game).

I think trade and resourceflows will see a lot of "spikes", and it may be hard to maintain a courier-service on a spiky regional economy. Or it may make it more viable.....

Those agents would not have to stand around waiting untill something comes their way off course: they could just be doing other things, untill they are called upon. So I guess it would take a lot of "reserves" and a firm coordination to make such a service to a success. When I look at the things some players have achieved in certain MMO's, I think this could easily happen. :)

I like the idea a lot.

Goblin Squad Member

I would like to point out, that the Devs explained in game time to real time, and proceeded to say it would take 15 mins.

They didn't specify which time they were using.

Since 3 Hexs are 2km, and it takes 15 mins to pass 3/4 of Mile, then each hex is essentially 40% of a mile, since they made Hexes smaller. If were talking in game time, then in real time it should take roughly 2 mins to travel a Hex, 30 seconds when running, and 20 seconds when fast traveling. This is of course on foot.

So, Land Rush Map is 1.5 Hours corner to corner, and the full map would be 4 hours corner to corner.

No game would ever have you traveling for "16 hours" like it suggest corner to corner in the blog. That is 15 seconds for 1 min, so I think he was suggesting in game times.

Goblinworks Game Designer

The times I listed above are in Earth time, as determined by the stopwatch app on my real world phone while I ran across the hex :) .

Yes, if an in-game day is six times as fast as a real day, you're actually going 1/6 the speeds I listed... but I wouldn't advise thinking about it too hard. The faster in-game day is much more about fun than world simulation.

Goblin Squad Member

Ahh, ok, sorry I totally missed your post, I was going by the blog, lol.

Goblin Squad Member

This seems to me to be one of the most important topics discussed recently. Looking forward to seeing/hearing more.

The dev responses seem good. I'm 100% sure they'll get good feed-back when the players are mobilized.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
In EVE, it takes a minute or two to travel from one star system to another. That's about the pace I like for Pathfinder Online. And like in EVE, the place you want to go is likely a lot more than one segment away from where you are. If it takes 10-15 minutes of travel on a regular basis, I think that sets a good pace and gives distance meaning without asking people to forgo an afternoon to get somewhere interesting.

I'm hoping it takes about 5 minutes to cross a hex by foot, perhaps a bit faster by improved road.

I'm thinking in terms of the world feeling larger than it might actually be. If anyone else can remember what SWG was like, before mounts and speeders. Those planets truly felt huge, and most were as dangerous as hell to cross on foot.

Even EvE online, before jump-to-zero gating, 35 jumps easily took an hour-and-a-half.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
If anyone else can remember what SWG was like, before mounts and speeders. Those planets truly felt huge, and most were as dangerous as hell to cross on foot.

I do recall SWG (and still miss it), but having that huge of a world (or in SWG's case, multiple worlds) also spread the players population so thin that for a community networker like myself, it was awfully hard to find people, especially once their player-made cities were established over half a dozen worlds.

Like most things, travel time and distance needs to find a happy medium. We don't want to be like lab rats crammed into a tiny cage and at each other's throats for a little space, but we don't want to take a whole afternoon in transit just to go visit someone else's cage either.

Goblin Squad Member

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One of the things I am curious about is how the level of activity and player density will start varying when the game matures and more areas and settlementhexes are added.

I feel that certain areas may become less populated for some reason(sleepy towns in low-activity areas emptying out because the Frontier is luring them, leaving vacant settlement hexes), which would then balance out because people from high activity/high danger areas might seek these out again.

Could even be that there are people who constantly seek out these "cool spots" so they can go more about their harvesting/PvE business. Since there are no Wars/Feuds going on in the area, and less trade, there may also be less players/groups/bandits roaming for a fight/loot.

At some point these players may claim a vacant settlementhex again, settlement-activity returns to the area and the cycle begins anew.

It will most likely take a few years before we see these "cool spots" though.

Lots of unknowns but nice to think about. Another reason for a vacant settlementhex in an older area may be, because it has been razed, original inhabitants relocated elsewhere (frontier?) and the victor loses interest in the conquered hex and leaves it for the tumbleweed.

Or at some point, there may be an overall abundance of food in a large region, and settlement hexes in food-producing areas may empty out to seek out geography with a better economic outlook (minerals).

I guess an exodus of active players for some reason could easily create lots of these cool spots too, but I do not want to think about that.

I realize that the devs can tweak stuff as to influence all this, but I hope they will allow some natural flow in this.

Goblin Squad Member

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Whatever the speed, I hope that Dearh-Porting is prohibitive enough that it does not become a means of fast travel.

In Age of Conan, there was no reason not to throw yourself from a cliff, to fast travel and turn in your quests.

Even in EvE, allowing the pod killing of yourself ( provided no implants and cheap reclone) it makes sense rather than going through 40 or more jumps.

Goblin Squad Member

I think by-settlement bank location makes the most sense to limit death-porting. The durability damage to threaded items can also help. If you can't throw your stuff into a bank in Fort Inevitable and then access it in your hometown in the far Northeast portion of the map, then it means your death porting cost will be most of your goods.

Goblin Squad Member

I agree with Lifedragn, universal banking systems sort of destroy immersion, and if we have settlement based ones, makes more sense, and also limits abuses.

Also, something that might be interesting to see is teleportation (expensive) for individuals at NPC Settlements back to home Settlements, and (very expensive) teleportation of bulk good/carts/wagons back to a Settlement. Could be an easy way to remove coin from the market, and a bit easier on travels times back to home settlements.

Goblin Squad Member

Bigmancheatle wrote:

I agree with Lifedragn, universal banking systems sort of destroy immersion, and if we have settlement based ones, makes more sense, and also limits abuses.

Also, something that might be interesting to see is teleportation (expensive) for individuals at NPC Settlements back to home Settlements, and (very expensive) teleportation of bulk good/carts/wagons back to a Settlement. Could be an easy way to remove coin from the market, and a bit easier on travels times back to home settlements.

Too much fast trave via teleportation, costly or not, eliminates potential for human interaction.

Goblin Squad Member

I can see your point, but just thinking about what is within the realm of possibility within Golorian. Can't wait to see how they tackle certain aspects of it.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:


Too much fast trave via teleportation, costly or not, eliminates potential for human interaction.

Like everything else, it's a balancing act. At the end of the day it's a game and should be fun - not a chore. If I'm on one side of the world and my friend is on the other, and it takes 2 hours for me to go join him, I'm not going to like this game. But if you can hit "M", bring up your map, click on it anywhere and teleport there, that's overkill in the other direction and takes away the feeling that you're actually in a world.

Personally, I lean in the direction of preferring convenience over tedium. Most "meaningful interaction" should happen at points of importance, not in between them anyway.

Goblin Squad Member

Broken, that was my thinking a bit, easier to get home, but only from NPC cities.

Goblin Squad Member

Broken_Sextant wrote:
Personally, I lean in the direction of preferring convenience over tedium. Most "meaningful interaction" should happen at points of importance, not in between them anyway.

Points of Importance is objective at times. Bludd's points of importance may very well be a road that leads you to your point of importance. Who is to say his meaningful interaction is any less relevant than yours?

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Areks wrote:
Broken_Sextant wrote:
Personally, I lean in the direction of preferring convenience over tedium. Most "meaningful interaction" should happen at points of importance, not in between them anyway.
Points of Importance is objective at times. Bludd's points of importance may very well be a road that leads you to your point of importance. Who is to say his meaningful interaction is any less relevant than yours?

First of all I said most, not all. Second "points of importance" shouldn't be that controversial of a term. Resource nodes, outposts, terrain bottlenecks, settlements, places that people have reasons to go to or through. Nitpicking that term is missing the point.

Goblin Squad Member

Broken_Sextant wrote:
Pax Areks wrote:
Broken_Sextant wrote:
Personally, I lean in the direction of preferring convenience over tedium. Most "meaningful interaction" should happen at points of importance, not in between them anyway.
Points of Importance is objective at times. Bludd's points of importance may very well be a road that leads you to your point of importance. Who is to say his meaningful interaction is any less relevant than yours?
First of all I said most, not all. Second "points of importance" shouldn't be that controversial of a term. Resource nodes, outposts, terrain bottlenecks, settlements, places that people have reasons to go to or through. Nitpicking that term is missing the point.

But if you look at the map, there are points of interest no more than 4 hexes away from each other. So if you can have some kind of quick travel that takes you 20 hexes at a time, now you have missed / avoided several points of interest.

Sometimes you may be an hour away from your friends, proably the result if some sport of a meaningful choice ( exploration, diplomacy, etc). It is a small map to begin with, roughly 30 x 28, I'm guessing about an hour to cross the entire map.

Goblin Squad Member

Broken_Sextant wrote:
Pax Areks wrote:
Broken_Sextant wrote:
Personally, I lean in the direction of preferring convenience over tedium. Most "meaningful interaction" should happen at points of importance, not in between them anyway.
Points of Importance is objective at times. Bludd's points of importance may very well be a road that leads you to your point of importance. Who is to say his meaningful interaction is any less relevant than yours?
First of all I said most, not all. Second "points of importance" shouldn't be that controversial of a term. Resource nodes, outposts, terrain bottlenecks, settlements, places that people have reasons to go to or through. Nitpicking that term is missing the point.

Sorry if I am coming off as nitpicking. That is not my intent. NPC hexes, Monster Hexes, Home Hexes, and Badland hexes are all non-claimable. Something of importance should be going on in those. Ever other hex is claimable, either by a settlement or a company, thus possibly a point of contention. To me, that is meaningful interaction. Whether it be struggling with one another to dominate the area or struggling against other forces, escalation or PC, together to protect it.

Allowing someone to bypass that because they wanna play with their friends is denying people who claimed that area the ability to interact with you whether you want to or not. Maybe they want you to buy goods from them, maybe you can offer them some services they need, maybe they need help or you have a common enemy that neither of you knew about.

I think teleportation is an option, but it should be limited. It should be expensive and used on occasion. This game is about interacting with people not just your friends. Don't get me wrong, I wanna play with my friends too.

I'm just against bypassing you or anyone else for my own convenience because that is depriving you and everyone else I bypass of using me as content.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Areks wrote:
Broken_Sextant wrote:
Pax Areks wrote:
Broken_Sextant wrote:
Personally, I lean in the direction of preferring convenience over tedium. Most "meaningful interaction" should happen at points of importance, not in between them anyway.
Points of Importance is objective at times. Bludd's points of importance may very well be a road that leads you to your point of importance. Who is to say his meaningful interaction is any less relevant than yours?
First of all I said most, not all. Second "points of importance" shouldn't be that controversial of a term. Resource nodes, outposts, terrain bottlenecks, settlements, places that people have reasons to go to or through. Nitpicking that term is missing the point.

Sorry if I am coming off as nitpicking. That is not my intent. NPC hexes, Monster Hexes, Home Hexes, and Badland hexes are all non-claimable. Something of importance should be going on in those. Ever other hex is claimable, either by a settlement or a company, thus possibly a point of contention. To me, that is meaningful interaction. Whether it be struggling with one another to dominate the area or struggling against other forces, escalation or PC, together to protect it.

Allowing someone to bypass that because they wanna play with their friends is denying people who claimed that area the ability to interact with you whether you want to or not. Maybe they want you to buy goods from them, maybe you can offer them some services they need, maybe they need help or you have a common enemy that neither of you knew about.

I think teleportation is an option, but it should be limited. It should be expensive and used on occasion. This game is about interacting with people not just your friends. Don't get me wrong, I wanna play with my friends too.

I'm just against bypassing you or anyone else for my own convenience because that is depriving you and everyone else I bypass of using me as content.

Yeah, I don't really disagree with any of this, it's all valid points. But for me, like I said, the bottom line is it's a game and people want to have fun doing what they want to do. This doesn't mean unlimited freedom obviously, which is why I said it's always a balancing act. One where I prefer the scales to tip a little more in the "convenience" direction, is all. I think the gain far outweighs whatever you lose as the map gets bigger.

There's certainly non-teleportation methods of making travel more convenient, too.
One thing I think WoW does that I like is to increase your speed while on roads. If you run at speed 10 on regular terrain, you can run at 20 on a road. If a horse travels at speed 50 on regular terrain, it goes at 100 on a road. This of course makes roads more convenient but probably more dangerous since bandits will be all over them. Or LOTRO for example has stables where you buy a horse ride to another nearby stable. It doesn't (usually) teleport you, but it just makes the ride to your destination automatic, and a little faster than riding on your personal mount. So I couldn't bypass your settlement, I'd probably have to ride to it and pick up another ride there if I wanted (making your settlement money, possibly). This too would probably make finding targets for bandits a little too easy if you could stop travelers on these taxi-horses.
My point is just there's different ways to approach it depending on what drawbacks you want to mitigate.

Goblin Squad Member

I could agree with increased road speed. Maybe requiring A stabling fee to recharge a mounts stamina to return to full speed.

Goblin Squad Member

It was mentioned increased speed on the road. With Mounts we might see 20-30 seconds for Roads, but Caravans would be a different matter. Caravans move much slower than regular movements, and I am not sure they could move at increased speed....so it might be a long trek to the market.

Goblin Squad Member

Yes, don't forget fast Travel. I think that is supposed to be 4-5 times faster? To be determined off course. Fast Travel will only be on roads, I think, and will be like the fixed horse-rides you have in Lotro and DaoC. Which I always loved for some reason, probably because you could be lazy while still seeing the beautifull landscape glide by.

Off course you can be pulled out of fast travel by blinds so that will make it much less fast. It seems that oftentimes simply hoofing it may be the better option, since you can travers a hex on a path that you determine yourself. Off course there are the chokepoints between elevation areas(X-es) but most hexes themselves seem seamlessly connected to eachother.

I think Roads and fast travel need to be considerable faster for advantage, since they are fixed routes and are much more likely to be monitored(disadvantage).

So much TBD but that is what EE is for. :)

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Tyncale wrote:
One of the things I am curious about is how the level of activity and player density will start varying when the game matures and more areas and settlementhexes are added.

I have wondered about this too. Particularly in reference to the Golarion map. If the game is going to be restricted to the 'River Kingdoms' for the foreseeable future then that would make it unlikely that the map will expand much north or west... Fort Riverwatch may remain in the northwestern corner of the map indefinitely while large swaths of terrain open up to the east and south. Conversely, a settlement in the SE corner of the initial map might eventually come to be at the center of the known game world.

Of course, they could also declare that the game exists in some sort of 'virtual River Kingdoms' which is expandable in all directions, but that would seem inconsistent with the efforts made to line up with the Golarion map thus far. If they do expand further north and keep to Golarion we'd run into Castle Urion, the nearest major settlement, in short order. After that I think the closest is Daggermark, which would likely take years for the game to expand out to.

Goblin Squad Member

I think they will stay true to Golarion if they ever expand North and West of the Crusader area. I remember something about the River Kingdoms being an area that had not been used too much in tabletop campaigns and such, so that this would give a bit more freedom to GW when they develop PFO. But I do not think they want GW to think up entire regions that are not on the Golarion map.

It indeed seems that the bulk of the River Kingdoms lies to the East and South of the crusader area. But there is also the Worldwound to the North West and if the game becomes so succesfull that they want to spread out in all directions, that sure would be a nice way to go. I am not a Pathfinder buff at all though, so I am not sure if that area is bound to all sorts of restrictions that would not mesh well with what PFO is doing.

But maybe it was on purpose that they start the game in a corner of the region. When the game grows bigger, they may want the original NPC-starting towns to slowly become more off-center to the expanding playing-area, rather then always have it at the center. Then again, they may decide to implement new NPC-starter towns to the East and South when the game grows, so this is all conjecture.

Goblin Squad Member

The lore of the River Kingdoms is very much that of small nations constantly rising an falling. It is always in flux and thus makes the most sense for a game involving the frequent rise and fall of nations.

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:

I just tested it. At 100% speed (i.e., not encumbered and not sprinting), it takes about two and a half minutes to cross flat to flat on a hex (or center to center across the flat side rather than a corner). That's going straight, so anything you have to go around like monsters or mountains will obviously impact that travel time. If I did the math right, I think that makes our 100% speed functionally about 4.44 m/s, 14.6 ft/s, or 10 mph.

Those speeds may change somewhat, but probably not very much. Additionally, once we get tech in to make roads faster and other forms of fast travel, it will likely decrease. But if you're heavily laden and/or using a caravan, it will probably increase.

So based on the larger sized map that Lee posted (which admittedly contains areas we may not see until OE) the longest possible straight north-south distance is 61 hexes (~41.5 km or ~26 miles), which at 680 m for a hex side to side and 4.44 m/s gives 156 minutes or 2 hours 36 minutes to cross. Longest east-west distance (if we assume the river is uncrossable and the hexes west of the river don't count) is ~34 km (~21.3 miles), so the longest possible distance is from the NW corner to the SE corner and is roughly 53.65 km (33.5 miles). Covering that distance would take ~201 minutes, or 3 hours 21 minutes.

Those are "as the bird flies" so realistically longer if you were to have to deal with obstacles, but less if fast travel is allowed or follow speed improving roads.

Handy reference for dealing with hexagons: hex ref

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

Using the above hex reference and seeing that the nearest settlements in the landgrap map are 3 hexes apart (eg. Q-R or K-J) then that's 340m+680m+680m+340m ~ 2km between nearest settlements if we assume settlements sit in the middle of their hexes. Using Stephen's 4.44 m/s that's ~7.66 minutes between nearest settlements, again assuming simply walking in a straight line with no obstacles. Perhaps a tad less if we assume that settlements aren't just dots, but rather have some size to them. So somewhere from 7-7.5 minutes between 'city limits' depending on how big the settlements are.

Goblin Squad Member

I have been thinking about trying to calculate how the play-area would have to expand, based on increasing subscriber numbers and based on what we currently know about settlement hex-density.

I would take a rather arbitrary number of 300 members per settlement average, which may be too few. I guess some of this depends on how ftp characters will be handled. There may be hundreds of thousands Ftp characters at one point that are member of a settlement, but hardly ever log in(alts).

But if we would take subscribernumbers i.e. amount of characters actually accumulating xp that would probably work well to calculate playerdensity.

I am mostly curious how much of the actual River Kingdoms the game could cover when we reach Eve-like subscriber numbers, which is around 500.000 I believe. I am also curious if the World Wound could be reached with such subscriber number, if GW is allowed to expand beyond the River Kingdoms. All conjecture, but fun to think about. It could be that settlements need a much higher membercount for the "game of settlements" to reach critical mass, so lots of unknowns, but still.

The above is off course nothing less then a brandnew "Summon Nightdrifter" spell, I hope it works. :)

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