PFS - Need help with Halfling Rogue!


Advice

Sovereign Court

Hey all,

I'm trying to come up with a build for a rogue (or ninja) using the Halfling race. I'm not very familiar with Rogues and I'm assuming that I want to keep Trap Finding as it seems to be the main point of a Rogue...(you can try to convince me to pick Ninja instead, I'm just assuming Trap Finding is OP.)

I'm wanting to make use of the following things:

Rogue Concepts in Mind for my Character:

1) high Dex

2) Feinting, as it allows me to SA when my team in PFS isn't letting me get the flank.

3) Underhanded + Deft Palm? (I'm assuming there's ways to make use of this beyond the Surprise Round. If not then I probably need to focus on going first and laying the smack down on someone before their turn has arrived?)

4) Acrobatics, I'm sure I'm going to be rolling around all over the place and some options of manuevering in and out of combat would probably be a good idea.

5) Stealth, I assume Halfling should make me a pretty good stealther due to Small bonus and maybe a racial trait?

6) I think I'll probably focus on 1 weapon so I'm not worrying about TWF penalties or dumping a TON of gold into 2 weapons. Thoughts?

7) This is just a question, but is Stealthy Sniper + Swift as Shadows worth building a rogue around? How exactly does it work? I attack with a ranged weapon and if my stealth roll beats their perception roll then I'm still stealthed and can throw something else for more SA dmg? I'm assuming this is what it does?

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This is for a PFS legal build and I'm looking for ways to build a stealthy character that can move in to get into position, or feint, and do sneak attack dmg and then move out (or acrobatics out) to safety. I'm looking to steer clear of TWF unless I can use it without it being feat cost intensive as I'd like to keep most of my feats open to increasing survivability and mobility.

I'm pretty lost with Rogues (I've played Monks, Wizards, and Clerics but not Rogues) so your help with creating this character would be much appreciated!

Sample Stats, not set in stone but just something to give a general idea:

Str: 13 -2 racial = 11
Dex: 15 +2 racial = 17
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 10
Cha: 12 +2 racial = 14

Feel free to give suggestions as I just threw these stats together with the requirement in mind for Improved Feint.

Sovereign Court

Looking to hear some advice from fellow Rogue players. There are people that still play rogues right? :P

Sczarni

What weapon did you have in mind? And what do you mean by you assume trap finding is OP? On Point?

Sovereign Court

OP - Over Powered.

I'm not particularly bent on a certain weapon but maybe ones that have a + to sleight of hand? I'm new to Rogues and I'm guessing the bonus to Sleight of Hand would help with the Deft Palm & Underhanded combo?

I'd like to steer away from whips or saps though. I don't want to dump the feats into the non-lethal or whip feat chains as they won't be that effective in the mid/high PFS levels.

I'm looking for ways to maximize my stealth, acrobatics, some mobility, survivability, the Underhanded feat looks good to get max Sneak Attack dmg though. Also, using Imp and Greater Feint to get SA dmg without relying on my team to set me up for it seems reasonable. Then rest of feats used to keep me alive or give me some versatility?

Sczarni

Oh. I personally wouldn't call trap finding over powered, and if you're thinking Ninja you lies it anyhow.

How about a Dagger with Knifemaster archetype and the River Rat trait? The dagger has sleight of hand boni (I believe), and the River Rat trait gives you +1damage. The D8 sneak attack is nice, and of course the dagger can be thrown!

Take the racial trait that grants 30' movement and your Acrobatics/mobility won't suffer.

Sovereign Court

I give up the +2 acrobatics for the extra 10 move speed but I take it that's probably worth it more? High Acrobatics will help me avoid getting hit when tumbling in/out which is why I bring it up.

I'm aware of Knife Master archetype but I hear it's not as great as what most people talk it up to be. Thoughts?

How useful is Swift of Shadows? I take it's mainly for Ranged archer Rogues so it's not that useful for a small Rogue that's trying to move around undetected? I'd like to probably be able to re-stealth in combat at later levels or have some kind of option like that. I'm thinking more of a Frodo character instead of a Rogue that tries to stand toe to toe with enemies. I want to spring in, deal dmg, and get out of dodge before I get destroyed. I'll let the melee fighters/barbarians/paladins do the tanking instead :P


Trapfinding is not considered overpowered by most people. As long as you can spot the trap there are ways of making it go off without too much damage inflicted on your party, but it is certainly helpful to not have to come up with those ways on the fly.

Also, another thing to consider in this build is that feinting requires a move action still with improved feint, so no full round attacks.

So with that in mind, I suggest going with a ninja as vanishing trick/ invisible blade is awesome for being stealthy. Also, you may want to look at the moonlight stalker deat tree as it eventually offers the ability to feint as a swift action. Another option is to take a look at the oracle as a class dip as tehre is one that offers the ability to see through and cast obscuring mist.

The deft palm + underhanded abilities are pretty nice joined together, especially with the knifemaster archetype. Which I'm feeling too lazy to find out how to correctly quote underhanded, but the problem could be the part "that her opponent didn't know about." At the least it is a very powerful one time per battle hit.

Last thoughts are that you can still take rogue talents with your ninja tricks. You would simply lose out on evasion (pretty big loss) and the ability to find magical traps.

Sovereign Court

Thank Toirin. I don't want to pickup a level in Oracle, it'll drop my BAB down 1 more and just doesn't fit my concept for this character.

Feint as a swift action sounds very much up my alley. I'm not opposed to Ninja and it seems like Ninjas have some good stuff going for them, while Halfling also gives that +2 cha bonus that Ninjas make good use of.

EDIT: Any good ways to gain concealment without the Oracle cheese? Just read Moonlight Stalker Feint and it sounds good if there's a practical way to gain concealment verse foes often.

EDIT2: Would Spring Attack and Wind Stance be a good option along with Moonlight Stalker Feint? This seems like possibly a better option than going the Scout + Charging route as that's a full-round action that leaves me right in front of big scarey monster.

EDIT3: Looks like Passing Tricks allows me to do the same thing as Moonlight Stalker Feint but less required feats.


I think something like Trapper Ranger 1/ Ninja X could fit. You get trapfinding from Ranger as well as wild empathy and a Favored Enemy. Then as a Ninja you can do all the normal ninja things.

Sovereign Court

Ok, so with some of the advice so far I've found that I'm looking for something like the following. I think it's setup a bit sloppy though but it's the best I could think of for now.

Lore Warden 2 / Ninja 9:

Str: 13 -2 racial = 11
Dex: 17 +2 racial = 19
Con: 14
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 13 +2 racial = 15

1) Lore Warden 1: Bab +1, Dodge (lvl 1), Mobility (fighter)
2) Lore Warden 2: Bab +2, Spring Attack (fighter), Combat Expertise (lore warden)
3) Ninja 1: Bab +2, Improved Feint (lvl 3)
4) Ninja 2: Bab +3, Vanishing Trick (ninja), +1 Dex
5) Ninja 3: Bab +4, Spring Attack (lvl 5)
6) Ninja 4: Bab +5, Rogue Talent: Finesse Rogue (ninja)
7) Ninja 5: Bab +5, Passing Trick (lvl 7)
8) Ninja 6: Bab +6/+1, Combat Trick: Underfoot (ninja), +1 Cha
9) Ninja 7: Bab +7/+2, Extra Rogue Talent: Deft Palm (lvl 9)
10) Ninja 8: Bab +8/+3, Rogue Talent: Underhanded (ninja)
11) Ninja 9: Bab +8/+3, Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense (lvl 11)

I would be trying to use Spring Attack + Passing Trick to acrobatics in, swift feint, sneak attack, and move away since I'm using Spring Attack. If the enemy pursues me then I can acrobatics out easily with high AC bonus from Mobility + Underfoot. Deft Palm + Underhand will let me conceal a dagger and deal max damage during a surprise round.

Maybe I'm trying to put too much into this build? I want to keep some mobility movement available. Maybe there's some other options for dealing good damage? It seems like my damage is going to be a bit low and my BAB is a bit behind.


Might as well grab the scout archetype while you're at it (ninja's qualify). This will allow you to always get sneak during a charge, and at level 8 you can always sneak when you move 10 feet. That should help ensure you get at least 1 sneak attack in per turn.

I'd drop improved feint. If you're mobile you're not using it, and while it could help on rounds when it's not available, since your mobile you should be getting flank when possible.

To hit, you'll need to be constantly charging and/or flanking to have even an ok(ish) to/hit.

Overall, you're build will help keep you alive by moving around, but you're damage will be on the lower end. To be honest, I'm not sure there's much of a way to make it competitive with other characters, although if you're having fun that's all that matters.

Grab a headband of ninjutsu asap.

Sovereign Court

Any suggestions or major flaws with my build? Did I leave anything important out? I know Scout lets me charge and SA but it's a full-round action. I'm assuming that Spring Attack + Passing Trick lets me tumble in, deal damage (hopefully flanking or using swift action feint), then walk away (thank you Spring Attack). I don't see anywhere where it says you can't tumble as part of a Full-Round action of moving, attacking, then moving of Spring Attack. (Tumble is a form of moving as well)

Maybe the Deft Palm + Underhanded combo is a little too much feat crowding for this build. Any suggestions of feats or Rogue Tricks that are really important that I should swap something out for?

I have very little experience with Rogues and Ninjas but just glancing it seems like Lore Warden is about the best option as it nets me 2 BAB, 2 fighter feats, free Combat Expertise.

Really could use some help/suggestions as I hear Rogues/Ninjas are a bit underpowered in general and really struggle to stay viable in PFS compared to other classes.


Kysune wrote:
Any suggestions or major flaws with my build? Did I leave anything important out? I know Scout lets me charge and SA but it's a full-round action. I'm assuming that Spring Attack + Passing Trick lets me tumble in, deal damage (hopefully flanking or using swift action feint), then walk away (thank you Spring Attack). I don't see anywhere where it says you can't tumble as part of a Full-Round action of moving, attacking, then moving of Spring Attack. (Tumble is a form of moving as well)

The skirmish ability is really what you're looking for. It helps make what you're doing viable.

the passing trick is ok, but it's a ton of investment for very little payoff.

Kysune wrote:
Really could use some help/suggestions as I hear Rogues/Ninjas are a bit underpowered in general and really struggle to stay viable in PFS compared to other classes.

They really do struggle in comparison to other classes. Honestly, if you weren't set on a rogue, I'd suggest alchemist/bard/ranger over using a rogue. They're are a few niche builds that do work though (some of them rather cheesy).

The main problem is you're basing all of your damage off a single attack, but the damage from that attack will be pretty paltry compared to others.

The 2 levels of lore warden are both a boon and a detriment. You do pick up 3 feats, but you're losing 1d6 damage, which is your only real source of damage.

the problem with the rogue is that their main source of damage is sneak attack, which only comes online if you can get it off multiple times. This wouldn't be a problem except that you're a 3/4 BAB class with no way to up the to-hit. So you're left with the option of not getting off multiple hits or doing so while taking negatives (twf, rapid shot, etc.).

That said, you didn't ask for a lecture on why rogues are underpowered. So, my advice would be to look into using a bludgeoning weapon and picking up sap adept/master. These dramatically up you're single hit damage, but it's non-lethal. Other then that, I think you've got everything you need, just don't expect it to compete with other classes.


I think if your aiming at damage I'd look at 3 options.

1) ninja acout as states already
2)ninja or rogue revolving around going first/surprise. Bandit archetype high initiative + snap shot.

3)some combination of the above with boar style and monk. Sohei allows always acting even in a surprise round.

So high dex monk/sohei. By lvl 5 can flurry for 3 attacks in surprise round. You get sa and if two attacks hit 2d6 bleed.

Sovereign Court

Well I do see myself picking up Mobility, Dodge, and Underfoot already as they allow me to get into position safely without eating a bunch of AoO's. Combined those three will give me a +7 to AC (along with a +4 to acrobatics for tumbling in/out of melee from Underfoot). The extra investment would be the two feats Combat Expertise and Improved Feint.

My thought for helping to-hit was to go 2handed with 1 weapon as it frees up my gold to increase its enchantment value more than the cost of 2 weapons. It also helps because I'm not burning feats for the TWF feat chain which is a good 3 feats. Should I be going TWF despite it "burning" up some of my available feat spots and making me dump more money on weapons that will net a lower +# enchantment value (thus equaling a lower to-hit bonus)?

I know the Sap Adept/Master line (I've already doc'ed out a advancement path for a Ninja/Scout using Bludgeoner, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Enforcer, and Bleeding Attack which nets 12d6 non-lethal SA dmg + 12 bleed dmg per round.) My issue though with that build is fighting something that's immune to Bleed Dmg, Non-Lethal Dmg, or SA in general. I'm a bit lost as to how I should improve this build.

Side Question: Is Stealthy Sniper + Swift as Shadows super effective to allow a ninja to throw multiple Shurikens via 'Flurry of Stars' for multiple sneak attacks? Wondering if this line has any potential...

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@Mojorat -

I don't know of any Monk archetypes that provide SA. I could FoB for 3 attacks at lvl 5 but I could do that lvl 2 with Flurry of Stars with all attacks at highest BAB -2.

The Boar Style idea isn't bad. A 2 level dip in Master of Many Styles Monk would get me Boar Style + Boar Shred (skipping Boar Ferocity and the requirements).

One issue I have is that going Monk will probably make my character MAD as heck with needing points in EVERY stat category. I do like the Boar Style + Boar Shred idea though as it gives a good boost of dmg if they aren't immune to bleed effects.

Sohei has some issues, as there's controversy regarding certain things the archetype allows and doesn't allow. I will look into the Bandit archetype as that may be a good idea.


Sohei means you can always act in the surprise round. Snap shot means your init is 20 with shuriken. Bandit lets you do full round action during surprise.

If you do boar style and flurry hiting teice with fists it throws in bleed.

You get surprised all the time in pfs. With this ser up or a variant it makes a Target rich enviroment. V

Basicaly you want
1) to always be able to act in The surprise round
2)be abke to full attack in surprisenround.

Rogue letss you do everything but actUallu act when surprised. Ninja 2/ sohei 1 flurries for 3 attacks with ki.


Kysune wrote:


Side Question: Is Stealthy Sniper + Swift as Shadows super effective to allow a ninja to throw multiple Shurikens via 'Flurry of Stars' for multiple sneak attacks? Wondering if this line has any potential...

if you read sniping you only get a single attack when you snipe. So you are only able to throw 1 star that gets sneak attack (sucks I know).

Moving away from that, the problem with mobility has nothing to do with your survivability. In fact, your survivability will be quite ok. The problem is that you're not contributing as much damage as others, and it could potentially be by a noticeable amount. You might have some luck if you check, the "Lets make the Rogue Work" thread. It was really good and had a bunch of good advice (albeit mixed with alot of rogue hate, and silly rogues rules posts).

I wish I had more advice, the problem is I just don't see the rogue being up to snuff compared to other classes in terms of combat/skills/out of combat utility.

Sovereign Court

I will check out that "Lets make the Rogue Work" thread.

I'm trying to think of a better "alternative" to a rogue or ninja but the lack of SA seems to make other options less attractive. Such as the ArchAeologist looks like it has a lot going for him but the damage output is lower than a Rogue/Ninja.

So, the only benefit of Stealthy Sniper + Swift as Shadows would be to make a ranged attack and not LOSE stealth? Which I assume higher PFS adventures they'll have other ways of finding me other than sight.

@Mojorat - so you're suggesting something like a 1-2 level dip of Sohei and 9-10 levels of Ninja/Bandit? This would help with the Underhanded + Deft Palm combo.

I'm not sure that the cost of 2 Rogue Talents just to get max damage on a SA during a Surprise round is the best option though. Thoughts?


I should clarify I may be suggesting too much in one fo. So ill seperate it.

First the key to making sneak attack work is to meet its conditions as much as possible without doing any funky tricks.

Second I noticed in pfs you get ambushed a lot.

So if you can do it full attack + sa means 2 rounds of un interupted sneak attack. It will just work no funky gimmicks.

The above is all theory craft I've never sat down to play it yet. But the theory is sound.

What I have seen in actual play was a rogue 4 sohei 1 using boar style. It did a lot of damage when it could sa and even when he couldn't boar style bleed was nice.

The onky downside was the occasional single attack no sa round.

Sovereign Court

Well, I came up with two builds but I'm not sure which one is better.

Sohei Monk 2, Ninja/Bandit 9:

Halfling
Str: 11
Dex: 19*
Con: 14
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 15*

1) Ninja/Bandit 1: Bab +0, Improved Initiative (lvl 1), SA 1d6
2) Ninja/Bandit 2: Bab +1, Rogue Talent: Finesse Rogue (ninja)
3) Sohei Monk 1: Bab +1, Dervish Dance (lvl 3), Dodge (monk), FoB, Devoted Guardian, IUS, Sneak Attack 1d6
4) Sohei Monk 2: Bab +2, Mobility (monk), Evasion, +1 Dex
5) Ninja/ Bandit 3: Bab +3, Spring Attack (lvl 5), SA 2d6
6) Ninja/ Bandit 4: Bab +4, Vanishing Trick (ninja)
7) Ninja/ Bandit 5: Bab +5, Iron Will (lvl 7), SA 3d6
8) Ninja/ Bandit 6: Bab +6/+1, Shadow Clone (ninja), +1 Cha
9) Ninja/ Bandit 7: Bab +6/+1, Pirahna Strike (lvl 9), SA 4d6
10) Ninja/ Bandit 8: Bab +7/+2, Bleeding Attack (ninja)
11) Ninja/ Bandit 9: Bab +8/+3, Weapon Training: Scimitar (lvl 11), SA 5d6

Build is focused around using a Scimitar with Dervish Dance. Mobility to move in, attack, move out. Vanishing Tricks to restealth and Sneak Attack. Shadow Clone to avoid damage. Bleeding Attack for +4-5 bleed damage per round at later levels.

Sohei Monk 2, Lore Warden 2, Ninja/Bandit 7:

Halfling
Str: 11
Dex: 19*
Con: 14
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 15*

1) Sohei Monk 1: Bab +0, Weapon Finesse (lvl 1), Dodge (monk), FoB, Devoted Guardian, IUS
2) Lore Warden 1: Bab +2, Mobility (fighter)
3) Lore Warden 2: Bab +3, Piranha Strike (lvl 3), Improved Feint (fighter), Combat Expertise (lore warden)
4) Sohei Monk 2: Bab +1, Deflect Arrows (monk), Evasion, +1 Dex
5) Ninja/ Bandit 1: Bab +3, Spring Attack (lvl 5)
6) Ninja/ Bandit 2: Bab +4, Rogue Talent: Underhanded (ninja)
7) Ninja/ Bandit 3: Bab +5, Passing Trick (lvl 7)
8) Ninja/ Bandit 4: Bab +6/+1, Weapon Training: Dagger (ninja), +1 Cha
9) Ninja/ Bandit 5: Bab +6/+1, Underfoot (lvl 9)
10) Ninja/ Bandit 6: Bab +7/+2, Shadow Clone (ninja)
11) Ninja/ Bandit 7: Bab +8/+3, Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense (lvl 11)

Build focuses on using a Dagger and swift feinting with Passing Trick to Sneak attack on a tumble in, using Spring Attack so after the tumble SA I walk away from the enemy without provoking an AoO. I have a +6AC and a high Acrobatics skill to avoid getting AoO'ed.

Underhanded allows me to get max SA dmg during a surprise round via spring loaded wrist sheaths that contain daggers. Towards the end I pickup Shadow Clone and Offensive Defense to further increase my defense. I should be able to SA all day as long as I succeed my Bluff checks on Improved Feint.

1) Anything I have wrong in the two above builds?
2) Am I missing anything or leaving myself really vulnerable to something in particular?
3)Are these builds pretty low dmg output? Which one seems better?

Any help would be great! Thanks.


Try instead a Slayer and use traits to grab the skills you want. Use your first Slayer talent to get trapfinding. Trust me when I say you'll have a better time for it.

Shadow Lodge

Bandit doesn't actually let you full attack in a surprise round, it lets you take a standard and move action. Just to be clear about it.

Also remember the +4 BAB prerequisite on Spring Attack.

Sovereign Court

Am I better off going Ninja/Scout than Ninja/Bandit? If so what should I spend the extra feats on?

From what I can tell already, both of my builds have pretty pathetic damage output. I could TWF the Dagger build using 2 daggers but I'd have to do something like a Scimitar + unarmed strike TWF for the other build. I've toyed around with Boar Style and Boar Shred feats. Maybe neither dagger or scimitar focus is best?

Any suggestions on other melee weapons that would possibly be better? Like Half-Elf with ECB proficiency racial trait? or just a straight up Improved Unarmed Strike build with Boar Style?
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What I'm looking forward to doing is getting in, doing some decent damage, and getting safely out. Maybe some bleed effects, or maybe some status effects with certain feats? (no poison since it's too expensive, I'm playing PFS.)

I want to hit the enemy, cripple them to some extent, and vanish/retreat to setup for my next attack. Not really looking for an intimidation build or shaken type status effects though.


Be a slayer and dual wield. They do it better.

Also if the intent is to get in and out, polearms do that well.

Sovereign Court

I'm focusing on a Dex based build and polearms aren't finesse'able. Not sure I like the idea of a polearm rogue either. When you say slayer do you mean Skulking Slayer? I'd looking to play a halfling (or half-elf if ECB turns out to be too good to pass up).

Shadow Lodge

Slayer will make a decent version of this character, but in PFS, a Ninja is perfectly viable. If you wanted to dual-wield then I would suggest getting a copy of ACG Playtest and use Slayer. But slayer does not completely cover up the Ninja, and actually, Ninja is quite nice on its own, being both more flavorful and having some better options[vanishing trick is much better than a lot of the talents IMO, and extra Ki attacks are golden].


I mean the Slayer from the advanced Class Guide. The Playtest document is legal.

Full BAB Rogue+

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