Critical hit on grapple damage


Rules Questions


Hey guys, I just have a quick question regarding grapples and critical hits.

Lets say a player is grappled and pinned by a monster. The monster makes a grapple check on his turn to do damage to the player. He rolls and 20 and confirms. Does the monster get to do 2x damage to the player since it "crit" on its grapple roll to do damage?

Anyway we can get an official ruling on this issue?

Thanks!


I wouldn't hold my breath on an 'official ruling'.

I don't believe you can critically hit on any combat maneuvers. A 20 means you automatically succeed, while a 1 is an automatic failure. As far as I know there is no special exception to this rule for grapple checks.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

You can't crit with maneuvers. I can dig up a link to a designer saying so if you'd really like.


Rule 22 of the forums

Never bet against Jiggy when links are involved


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Jiggy is correct. Critical hits only apply to attack rolls. A successful grapple check to deal damage is not an attack roll.

Grand Lodge

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Hendelbolaf wrote:
Jiggy is correct. Critical hits only apply to attack rolls. A successful grapple check to deal damage is not an attack roll.

Well, actually, all Combat Maneuver checks are attack rolls.

Anything that adds to attack rolls, also adds to Combat Maneuver checks.

Using a Combat Maneuver, is an attack.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, actually, all Combat Maneuver checks are attack rolls.

Anything that adds to attack rolls, also adds to Combat Maneuver checks.

Using a Combat Maneuver, is an attack.

Okay, I will retract that line, as you are correct, they are attack rolls.

PRD:

"Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll."

"Rolling a natural 20 while attempting a combat maneuver is always a success (except when attempting to escape from bonds), while rolling a natural 1 is always a failure."

It does not say they do extra damage on a critical hit. Maybe that is because not all combat maneuvers deal damage...

Grand Lodge

I would like to look over those links about critical hits with Combat Maneuvers.

Grapple is not the only way to deal damage with them.


AFAIK they are attack rolls but they don't crit. I will try to find proof later.

Grand Lodge

I just would hate for this to come up, and not have all the facts.


Combat maneuvers are attack rolls only in the sense that they get the same bonuses and penalties

EDIT:and that they auto succeed or fail on 20s and 1s

Attacks hit or miss...do damage on hits...nothing on miss

Combat maneuvers succeed or fail...do specified action depending on maneuver on success...have varying effects on failure depending on total roll and combat maneuver type

Grand Lodge

I am well aware of how they work.

Not everyone is, or is easily convinced it works in another fashion.

It is good to have the proper information, and proof, when dealing with such people.


If Combat Maneuvers could crit, it wouldn't bother giving the separate "automiss/autohit" rules for them.


Drakkiel wrote:
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls only in the sense that they get the same bonuses and penalties

...and in the sense that the rules text flat out says they ARE attack rolls?

Nothing in RAW states they don't Crit. Saying that they auto-hit on 20 and auto-fail on 1 does NOT mean they don't crit. Repeating qualities they share with other attack rolls does not mean it is not an attack roll or doesn't share other unmentioned qualities, it is just superfluous info, as the rules sometimes state superfluous info in other cases.

That said, SKR wrote on the boards that they don't crit. Obviously the rules don't say that, so that's not RAW, but that is what he (and by extension Paizo, since they never contradicted him) chose to write here on the boards. He chose to focus on arguing "CMBs don't have threat ranges" but an attack doesn't need a listed threat range to crit, because by the weapon-agnostic rules of the Combat chapter governing attack rolls (which CMB are stated to be): A 20 is always a critical threat by the rules for attack rolls. Threat ranges only come into play as an augmentation of that dynamic, the lack of threat range does not remove the Critical Hit rules from play (for Nat 20s).


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
If Combat Maneuvers could crit, it wouldn't bother giving the separate "automiss/autohit" rules for them.

The rules give superfluous information in PLENTY of other cases, usually info that the writers feel is MOST pertinent to emphasize to the reader. Superfluousness is not grounds to discount otherwise sounds rules text, I would only invoke it when the rules text is somehow not sufficient on it's own, which is not the case here: the text directly states that CMBs /ARE/ attack rolls.


I think SKR would know intent since he helped to write the rule though, even if it was not written perfectly. Now GM's can decide if they want to follow RAW or RAI?

Grand Lodge

Quandary wrote:
Drakkiel wrote:
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls only in the sense that they get the same bonuses and penalties

...and in the sense that the rules text flat out says they ARE attack rolls?

Nothing in RAW states they don't Crit. Saying that they auto-hit on 20 and auto-fail on 1 does NOT mean they don't crit. Repeating qualities they share with other attack rolls does not mean it is not an attack roll or doesn't share other unmentioned qualities, it is just superfluous info, as the rules sometimes state superfluous info in other cases.

That said, SKR wrote on the boards that they don't crit. Obviously the rules don't say that, so that's not RAW, but that is what he (and by extension Paizo, since they never contradicted him) chose to write here on the boards. He chose to focus on arguing "CMBs don't have threat ranges" but an attack doesn't need a listed threat range to crit, because by the weapon-agnostic rules of the Combat chapter governing attack rolls (which CMB are stated to be): A 20 is always a critical threat by the rules for attack rolls. Threat ranges only come into play as an augmentation of that dynamic, the lack of threat range does not remove the Critical Hit rules from play (for Nat 20s).

I think I missed something in what SKR wrote, since I don't see anything in there stating that they don't crit, just that they don't have the ability to crit spelled out.

So, along with a grapple to do damage, can a Sunder attack crit?

And, indeed, if you have the feat Disarming Strike, as an example, and you crit on your Trip attempt, does that mean you get to do a free disarm attempt?


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wraithstrike wrote:
I think SKR would know intent since he helped to write the rule though, even if it was not written perfectly. Now GM's can decide if they want to follow RAW or RAI?

Yeah, I linked that quote so people can know the situation. I don't believe SKR actually wrote the Core Rules (I think it was just J. Bulmahn w/ J. Jacobs editing, CMB rules NOT being 3.x legacy), but like I said, he was never contradicted either. His statement is interesting in that it doesn't just assert intent, but gives a rules argument for why the rule should be read in that manner (in SKR's view). I followed it up with why that justification is not a solid reading of the rules (Nat 20 crit rule doesn't invoke threat range in the first place), but SKR never further responded, so that's all we have. I believe I did ask him whether they would be putting that in an official FAQ or Errata, to no avail, but plenty of such dev comments are never added to the official FAQ either.

kinevon wrote:
I think I missed something in what SKR wrote, since I don't see anything in there stating that they don't crit, just that they don't have the ability to crit spelled out.

Perhaps you didn't scroll back to read all his comments, he specifically wrote:

"Combat maneuvers don't have threat ranges and can't critically hit."

Quote:

So, along with a grapple to do damage, can a Sunder attack crit?

And, indeed, if you have the feat Disarming Strike, as an example, and you crit on your Trip attempt, does that mean you get to do a free disarm attempt?

Indeed, those are cases that would actually be more interesting than a simple x2 grapple damage... Although in case of Sunder the armor/weapon itself would be immune to Crits, if you have Greater Sunder any overflow damage goes against the wearer, so Crit damage should work (if it can Crit and regular damage can bring item to 0 hp). Things like Disarming Strike or Tripping Strike seem great, especially since many people seem to find it counterintuitive how Tripping and Grappling don't automatically kick in with each other, or even work together very well at all in terms of action economy.

Grand Lodge

@Quandary: Yep. Then again, how would being able to crit on a trip interact with the feat Butterfly's Sting? It is not like there is anything to necessarily forego to pass the crit on...

Grand Lodge

So, now my inquiry about needing proof, still not needed?

Grand Lodge

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A combat maneuver check is an attack roll. The result of success in this particular attack roll is that you maintain the grapple. You can't maintain a grapple twice as well. It makes no sense to confirm any critical hit that might result, because a critical hit does nothing different to an ordinary success. Because it makes no difference if you succeed or fail on such a confirmation roll, it's an unnecessary check for a non-challenging task and can't give you any other game benefits (bag of rats rule).

If you maintain the grapple, you can do various things to your opponent, one of which is to deal damage. The damage is automatic without an attack roll, so it can't score a critical hit, for the same reason that you can't crit with a magic missile.

Grand Lodge

Good enough for me.

Anything else I could use?

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