QuietBrowser |
I rather enjoyed the many inventive class archetypes and expansions added in the Advanced Race Guide, but as I flick through it, I cannot help but feel that many of them, whilst certainly most iconic for their particular race, aren't necessarily exclusive to that race.
I mean, the Fiend Flayer and Kinslayer are certainly very hard to work for non-Tieflings and non-Dhampirs, at best, I would be very hard-pressed to envision a non-Kobold sorcerer with the Kobold bloodline, and the Elemental Knight is openly tied into the Suli's racial power.
But for most of the rest of them? Why couldn't there be an Orc Redeemer Paladin, or a human Bushwhacker Gunslinger, or an elven Shigenjo Oracle, or whatever?
So, I was curious: has anyone else ever allowed races other than their associated races to take advantage of archetypes from the ARG?
Alaryth |
A few of the race restrictions really seem OK, but not many. As an example, one of my last characters has been a CG human treesinger Druid. She breaks two rules just on that little description, but the DM has no problem with that (my party has rotative GM, so we don't have DM versus players problems). Personally, every day I feel less constrained by race and alignment restrictions, specially for Druid and Monk.
Adjule |
I see no reason for many of the racial archetypes to be unavailable to the other races. Unless the mechanics have a specific race ingrained in them, I would treat them like just another archetype.
Redeemer paladin? Other than the bonus to Diplomacy vs monsters, nothing in that archetype really screams "half-orc". Same with treesinger druid. Scarred witch doctor, I don't see why it should be restricted to orcs, when it fits pretty well with many of the monstrous races (I can see coming across a scarred witch doctor that was an ogre, as an example). I can see it working for someone from the Realm of the Mammoth Lords (or similar in a non-Golarion world).
Davor |
There are some balance reasons that certain archetypes are tied to specific races, though. You'll notice that elves in particular get some pretty awesome archetypes for combat classes, but elves are also typically a weaker choice for those classes, so it balances out a bit.
Elves also get one of the best Oracle archetypes EVER, but they are usually a rather poor choice for Oracle.
Really, despite this, it's kind of a case-by-case basis. Sometimes a racial archetype should just be open to the public, and sometimes you have to consider the balance inherent in the race and archetype combination. Really, it just requires a bit of discretion.
LazarX |
I don't generally mix and match racial archetypes, because that's one of the few remaining areas where a race can retain flavor. I miss the days when you had to be an elf to be an arcane archer or a dwarf to be a ... dwarven defender.
So yes, on the most part, I keep a heavy, although not absolute lock on racial archetypes.
Mikaze |
I largely ignore the race restrictions because there isn't much built-in flavor tying many of them to a specific race with a few exceptions. To be honest, many of those archetypes would be appropriate for many other races. In some cases they would be more appropriate for other races.
That and those archetypes are mentioned as being "typically" of those races rather than exclusively. If it doesn't actually tie into a race's abilities or have a very strong tie to racial flavor*, it's hard to say they can only be found amongst their assigned races.
So if someone wanted to play a Ghoran Treesinger, they'd be good to go. :)
*Inner Sea Conbat's Ouat archetype is a good example of the rare archetype I'd keep exclusive.
MMCJawa |
Some of the archetypes are broad enough I wouldn't mind expanding them, but some do seem keyed in on a certain race or group of races. I haven't had anyone ask to do mix-and-match yet, so how much I would allow would depend on the request. Then again I also regularly change the flavor for a race since I am not too fond of the Paizo version of some races (dwarves, kobolds, etc)
QuietBrowser |
I want to thank folks for their opinions here; I'm of the personal opinion that only a very few archetypes from the guide are truly "unique to" their given race, and I was worried that I was thinking it through wrongly as a result.
Just to share, these are the archetypes from the book that I would personally either restrict exclusively to their race, or be hesitant about sharing.
Hesitant:
Underfoot Adept - Technically this would work for any Small race, at the least, but I could also easily see Dwarf or Human ones who trained in this art to be capable of fighting Large or bigger opponents, such as Giants.
Order of the Paw - For non Smalls, I'd personally require them to take the Beast Rider archetype, which should open up the ability to take Dire Wolves, Winter Wolves, and other suitably sized canines.
Cruoromancer - The fluff of it ties it a bit closely to Dhampires, but I wouldn't personally object to reskinning it to be more about general "the power of blood augmenting necromantic magic" and using it with other races.
Dusk Stalker - It'd be tricky to justify this Shadow Plane-specialist Ranger with anyone who isn't a Fetchling or a Wayang, but if the story was good enough, I could allow it.
Deep Bomber - It's best suited to races that are known to spend much of their time underground, but nothing particularly ties this to the Svirfneblins.
Restricted:
Ancient Lorekeeper - The theme and fluff are just too tied into Elves history to work anywhere else, though I suppose a Half-Elf or perhaps even a Drow with this class could work.
Kinslayer - The fluff of this Inquisitor archetype simply ties it too closely to the Dhampir, and the existence of the Vampire Hunter archetype means I'm happy to leave this variant to Dhampires.
Cavern Sniper - It fuels itself from the Drow's spell-like abilities, so it'd be useless for anyone who doesn't have Darkness *and* Faerie Fire spell-like abilities.
Kobold Bloodline - Perhaps the only case of a Bloodline so far where I cannot see it existing across members of different races.
Fiend Flayer - Based on the idea of using self-mutilation to use one's fiend-ichor tainted blood as magical fuel, I can't see this working for anyone other than a tiefling. Or maybe a multiclassed Sorcerer with the Abyssal or Infernal bloodlines.
Gray Disciple - Like the Cavern Sniper, it's based on utilizing the Duergar's racial powers and expanding upon them. Useless for any other race.
Wave Warden - Though I'd allow this to any aquatic/amphibious race (so Undines, Gillfolk and Grippli as well as Merfolk), it just doesn't work for any other race.
Airborne Ambusher - Requires the ability to fly in order to function.
Elemental Knight - Same deal as the Cavern Sniper and Gray Disciple.
Umbriere Moonwhisper |
Dwarven Scarred Witch Doctor Sounds Awesome, comes from a group of Dwarves that were captured by Ogres and kept as slaves for generations. the Dwarves learned the Ogre Traditions of magic through ritual scarification and become scarred witch doctors themselves. crafting masks from the hides of their fallen ogre captors.
Major_Blackhart |
I generally stick Racial Archtypes with their preferred races, along with their half-kind if they have it. For instance, I wouldn't allow a human to take a saboteur alchemist archtype, even with the racial heritage feat. I'd also keep Hateful Rager with half-orcs, though I'd allow dirty fighter to be used by both orcs and half-orcs.