Kirin Strike and its damage


Rules Questions


So a little background on my character. I rolled fun point buy. 16, 16, 15, 15, 14, 13. I think that is 42 pounts. Anyways I decided to not make the standard sad class with this and made a super mad monk MoMS2/ magus Kensai Blade bound. And for MoMS I took kirin style and kirin strike. I am enjoying the build (ac from dex, int, and wis) but I am having problems with kirin style.
Problem 1, when I use kirin style to look at something as a swift action what knowledge am I using? Am I using the same knowledge that I would to identify something? Or am I just using my highest ranks? If I dont have dungeonering I can't use this style on oozes?

Problem 2, do I apply kirin strikes damage to a critical? It is untyped so I do not know what to do about it.

Also while I am here can I apply the strike on ray attacks? What about frostbite? If I touch attack frostbite non lethal is kirin strike lethal damage or non lethal?


1: the knowledge check is whatever the proper one for the creature you are targeting, and you couldn't use it if you don't have the proper skill.

2: it lets you add damage as a separate swift action after a successful attack, so as far as I can tell, it shouldn't multiply at all.

3: It can apply anytime after round 3 when you make a successful melee or ranged attack roll... so yeah. My monk witch uses it on ray of frost, disrupt undead, acid splash, his crossbow and prehensile hair (which makes it 3xInt total... pretty sick). It should be whatever type of damage the original attack does so far as damage/energy type IMO, but it's not really clear on that.


LzardE wrote:
Problem 1, when I use kirin style to look at something as a swift action what knowledge am I using? Am I using the same knowledge that I would to identify something?....If I dont have dungeonering I can't use this style on oozes?

Yes and Yes. The idea I suppose is that the high itteligence score will make it easier one and two they wouldn't want you getting decent damage against all creatures without some cost!

LzardE wrote:
Problem 2, do I apply kirin strikes damage to a critical? It is untyped so I do not know what to do about it.

For convenience: While using Kirin Style against a creature you have identified using that feat, as a swift action after you have hit a creature with a melee or ranged attack, you can add twice your Intelligence modifier in damage (minimum 2).

I would say yes. Nothing says it is precision and it isn't a dice. The only real doubt I would have is because it says after you have hit swift action add intel *2 but honestly I think it is just weird wording. I think the add damage is adding the damage to your original attack rather than a separate attack that deals damage but I could be wrong.

LzardE wrote:
Also while I am here can I apply the strike on ray attacks? What about frostbite?

I would say yes. I am certain about the rays. :P I have no clue on damage type. IMO would be a decent FAQ.


The 2x Int is always lethal because the text doesn't say it's nonlethal. Anything that is a melee or ranged attack (has an attack roll) works.

If you cast a touch spell you get a free action to deliver your touch spell with a touch attack; this translates to Spellstrike for a Magus. If you didn't roll to attack anything you can't add the damage from a swift action this round on your attack during a subsequent round.

But, Kirin Strike is a trap! You really don't want to use Kirin Strike on your Magus because applying damage to a single attack burns away your 1/round swift action. That swift action is extremely important for magi. The Arcane Accuracy arcana needs a swift action. The Critical Strike arcana needs a swift action. The Lingering Pain arcana needs a swift action. An Arcane Strike feat (adds to Gloves of Arcane Striking) needs a swift action.

And, worst of all, you cast quickened spells as swift actions... so, really not worth it in upper levels. If it applied to multiple attacks it'd be worth it, but you're stuck to 1 with a single swift.

Scarab Sages

Katydid wrote:


But, Kirin Strike is a trap! You really don't want to use Kirin Strike on your Magus because applying damage per attack burns away your 1/round swift action. That swift action is extremely important for magi. The Arcane Accuracy arcana needs a swift action. The Critical Strike arcana needs a swift action. The Lingering Pain arcana needs a swift action. An Arcane Strike feat (adds to Gloves of Arcane Striking) needs a swift action.

But, worst of all, you cast quickened spells as swift actions... so, really not worth it in upper levels.

This. Kirin Strike is actually worse than this, because it not just takes your swift action to use it, it take THREE ROUNDS of swift actions to use. First round: swift action to enter the style. Second Round: Swift action to identify the creature. Third Round: Swift action to finally do 2x int damage. Assuming you have an int of 24 at 10th level, this is +14 damage for one attack. Even if you were just using Arcane Strike each round, that would give you +9 damage over the course of three rounds of single attacking. if you are making full attacks, that becomes +18 damage, not accounting for AoOs. And there are generally better uses of swift actions than Arcane Strike.

There are so many better uses of swift actions than kirin style, especially for a magus.

Lantern Lodge

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It can be worth it for a Kensai, though. Since it does wait for you to hit the creature, you'll know if it's a critical threat or not. Confirming critical threats are a joke for a Kensai, and with their ability to increase the critical multiplier that 2x int damage just became 6x int damage.

Want to really spice it up? Get your opponents flat footed vid shatter defenses. Then, at level 15, you'll be adding your intelligence to every attack versus that target. 3x int whenever you use Kirin Strike, and 9x int whenever you burn 2 arcane points on a critical strike. If you go into epics, level 22 you'll be dealing 12x your int in damage, thanks to the Kensai capstone ability. But even 6x your intelligence is more damage than the average intensified shocking grasp at level 11. It's a decent tradeoff in my opinion, but I don't think it's worth a two level dip for it.


FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

It can be worth it for a Kensai, though. Since it does wait for you to hit the creature, you'll know if it's a critical threat or not. Confirming critical threats are a joke for a Kensai, and with their ability to increase the critical multiplier that 2x int damage just became 6x int damage.

Want to really spice it up? Get your opponents flat footed vid shatter defenses. Then, at level 15, you'll be adding your intelligence to every attack versus that target. 3x int whenever you use Kirin Strike, and 9x int whenever you burn 2 arcane points on a critical strike. If you go into epics, level 22 you'll be dealing 12x your int in damage, thanks to the Kensai capstone ability. But even 6x your intelligence is more damage than the average intensified shocking grasp at level 11. It's a decent tradeoff in my opinion, but I don't think it's worth a two level dip for it.

I also get some really fun things to play with, stunning fist, wis to cmd and ac, evasion is sweet, and unarmed is a prerequisite to deflect arrows, my lvl 7 feat, maybe. Also +3 to all my saves.


2 levels in monk has always been my favorite dip for martials


I think it's not that great for a kensai/magus generally because of all the swift actions you take anyway.

A cognatogen/Explosive Missile/Targeted bomb admixture/Alchemical Strike (with acid/fire mix)/Conductive weapon using grenadier alchemist on the other hand is getting another INTx2 on top of his already ridiculous x6. He usually doesn't have any swift actions to take up at low levels either.

Imagine a crit with that.

Lantern Lodge

Kensai do, and don't, have a lot of swift actions. It really depends on how you build the character.

For instance, if you don't pickup arcane accuracy, what are you going to be spending swift actions on? Quickened spells don't come until mid or late game, and often are not worth spending the spell slot for it (I'd rather have an AOE spell prepared, like cone of cold or fire snake).

Another way to spend arcane pool, available to only the Kensai, is to increase the critical threat multiplier on your weapon. It can burn through points fast, but it's quite lethal for a Kensai leaning more towards physical damage output.

Scarab Sages

If if you have absolutely nothing to use swift actions on, Kirin is a trap.

If you have the ability to full attack, Arcane Strike is more damage than Kirin Strike, is one feat instead of three or a monk dip, and can be used from the first round of the fighting instead of waiting until the third round when things are usually just mop-up, or even worse, the the target you identified in round two was killed.

If you spell combat using a spellstrike cantrip (Brand, Arcane Mark, or close range Acid Splash/Ray of Frost) then you have at least three attacks per round to apply Arcane Strike damage. You have more if you are using a natural attack build and are in Gargoyle form.

Lantern Lodge

Imbicatus wrote:

If if you have absolutely nothing to use swift actions on, Kirin is a trap.

If you have the ability to full attack, Arcane Strike is more damage than Kirin Strike, is one feat instead of three or a monk dip, and can be used from the first round of the fighting instead of waiting until the third round when things are usually just mop-up, or even worse, the the target you identified in round two was killed.

If you spell combat using a spellstrike cantrip (Brand, Arcane Mark, or close range Acid Splash/Ray of Frost) then you have at least three attacks per round to apply Arcane Strike damage. You have more if you are using a natural attack build and are in Gargoyle form.

Kirin Strike does have some blatant weaknesses, such as waiting till round 3 to get the extra damage up and running, but the damage is not inferior if you use it correctly.

Arcane Strike will deal 6 to 12 damage per round at level 10 (haste and spell combat add more attacks). Assuming int modifier of +8, Kirin Strike can add any of the following:
(chance to get at least one crit with 15-20 weapon 2, 3, 4 attacks: .51, 65.7, 75.99)
(chance to get at least one crit with 17-20 weapon 2, 3, 4 attacks: .36, 48.8, 59.04)
Using Arcane Pool to increase weapon damage multiplier:
Kirin Strike deals anywhere between 24.48 and 36.4752 with a 15-20x2 weapon and anywhere between 17.28 and 28.3392
Without using the Arcane pool:
16.32 - 24.3168
11.52 - 18.8928

The beauty of doing this is that you don't always use your swift action, you only do that on a critical strike. Instead, you can also suck out an arcane point from a wyroot weapon when you don't get that critical that your fishing for.

Or you could also get the 19-20x3 weapon, allowing you to hit even harder with this burstiness.

Even though the damage is better, your right about having to wait 2 rounds for it to work, and that is the main reason it's not optimal. But, it is feasible, making it worth it for flavor reasons.

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