Echolocation should get around both of those, and hiring an army should kill him if he loses his invisibility (get a sleep poison, hire 840 archers, have them all poison the arrows and shoot; should be enough to prompt a nat 20/ nat 1 to knock him out.) I suppose something like a well built Druid 20 or Wizard 20 could get rid of his spells, but the whole exercise seems silly.
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Well andreww be more clear on the rules and contengencies around everything.
Either play it as RAW or lay down your other house ruled against cheese prior to the challenge.
So we have 2 winning strats according to RAW but neither of them will work when the DM dicks the player with the un-written rules he expects to be in place.
All in all the encounter was beaten by Prototype00. Go think of your next monstrosity. Next time don't forget tremor-sense.
Congrats Prototype00 you win admiration till this is buried under other threads.
Yeah, again, I've never gotten to level 20, and I would totally be Wishing away all his advantages, reducing the combat to GM fiat anyway.
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Level 10 Bard with something like +40 Diplomacy or better, he spends a few months travelling around all the cities and countries that are threatened convincing every single decent hero in them to attack Incendius all at once. Hundreds of high level heroes from several nations should manage the job, whilst the Bard is sat back in a tavern somewhere enjoying a cold brew.
Be aware of summon Incendius from another plane. You could accidentally summon something worse, like Aashaq The Annihilator. She (yeah, she) has 665,220 gp of treasure, and in the page below she isn't spending a single coin. This is what the book she comes from says (Dragon Unleashed).
http://tarsis.org/maptool/base/38f4d5cc4aef0ce7434e16daa453321254757fabcfaf 806ea907d818.html
Wizard 18 / Arcane Archer 2
Prebuff / Relevant Gear-
Overland Flight
Ring of Freedom of Movement
Necklace of Adaptation
+5 seeking shortbow
Wish spell - Simulate Extended Energy Immunity (Fire) [wordcasting] -- This I do at the edge of the volcano crater, right before I jump in.
Mundane Disguise to make me look like Lava, DC - (Ha! I'm level 20, The Erinyes and Vavakia Demons can't hit it with their assumed take 10 for "guarding")
Method of Attack -
(Round 1)
Jump in lava and swim down to where the walls of force are.
(Round 3)
Succeed on DC 20~40 perception check to locate one of the squares the dragon is in through smoke. (move action)
Cast true strike. (Standard Action)
(Round 4)
Quicken (rod) a Mage's Disjunction to blow the walls of force (at least the top one), the prismatic sphere, all linked spell effects from the planetar, and temporarily suppress of of the dragons items. (swift action)
Drop rod (free action)
Be sad because rod get burned up and it wasn't cheap :( (free action)
Quick draw short bow (free action)
Cast widened (spell perfection) Anti-magic shell and imbue arrow. (standard action) With buffs down dragon AC is 41. Seeking arrow negates miss chance from cover (smoke). Bab +10, +5 bow, Dex +5, Truestrike +20 = hit on a 2.
Watch lava flood chamber after my actions are complete (mmmm abstracted action economy :D)
(Round 5)
Laugh and watch as the dragon burns to death (irony) because the antimagic shell is suppressing his fire immunity (su) and his flight (su)
(Round 6) Swim to surface and fight other demons who still have fire immunity
(Round 10ish) Win, because I'm 20th level caster and they are CR 8 and 18.
Wizard 18 / Arcane Archer 2
Prebuff / Relevant Gear-
Overland Flight
Ring of Freedom of Movement
Necklace of Adaptation
+5 seeking shortbow
Wish spell - Simulate Extended Energy Immunity (Fire) [wordcasting] -- This I do at the edge of the volcano crater, right before I jump in.Mundane Disguise to make me look like Lava, DC - (Ha! I'm level 20, The Erinyes and Vavakia Demons can't hit it with their assumed take 10 for "guarding")
Method of Attack -
(Round 1)
Jump in lava and swim down to where the walls of force are.(Round 3)
Succeed on DC 20~40 perception check to locate one of the squares the dragon is in through smoke. (move action)Cast true strike. (Standard Action)
(Round 4)
Quicken (rod) a Mage's Disjunction to blow the walls of force (at least the top one), the prismatic sphere, all linked spell effects from the planetar, and temporarily suppress of of the dragons items. (swift action)Drop rod (free action)
Be sad because rod get burned up and it wasn't cheap :( (free action)
Quick draw short bow (free action)
Cast widened (spell perfection) Anti-magic shell and imbue arrow. (standard action) With buffs down dragon AC is 41. Seeking arrow negates miss chance from cover (smoke). Bab +10, +5 bow, Dex +5, Truestrike +20 = hit on a 2.
Watch lava flood chamber after my actions are complete (mmmm abstracted action economy :D)
(Round 5)
Laugh and watch as the dragon burns to death (irony) because the antimagic shell is suppressing his fire immunity (su) and his flight (su)(Round 6) Swim to surface and fight other demons who still have fire immunity
(Round 10ish) Win, because I'm 20th level caster and they are CR 8 and 18.
Supposing you were right before round 4...
Nope. Arrow stops being magic when antimagic field comes, so it doesn't follow Incendious, since it burns. Incendious round (your 4-5 round), takes 20d6 fire, moves away the 20x20 feet aura with a swim check. Magic has returned now. He answers you with a mage's disjunction. Then he touches the planetar and quicken teleport out of trouble. You can't know where he's, he's buffed and the volcano is preventing divination.Ouch! You're in the lava, taking 70 damage every round on average. Casting is now difficult (45 + spell level (average)) and you are uncovered from everything. You are also without a tactic.
The following rounds aren't easier. I don't think it will need an explanation.
Wizard 18 / Arcane Archer 2
Prebuff / Relevant Gear-
Overland Flight
Ring of Freedom of Movement
Necklace of Adaptation
+5 seeking shortbow
Wish spell - Simulate Extended Energy Immunity (Fire) [wordcasting] -- This I do at the edge of the volcano crater, right before I jump in.Mundane Disguise to make me look like Lava, DC - (Ha! I'm level 20, The Erinyes and Vavakia Demons can't hit it with their assumed take 10 for "guarding")
Method of Attack -
(Round 1)
Jump in lava and swim down to where the walls of force are.(Round 3)
Succeed on DC 20~40 perception check to locate one of the squares the dragon is in through smoke. (move action)Cast true strike. (Standard Action)
(Round 4)
Quicken (rod) a Mage's Disjunction to blow the walls of force (at least the top one), the prismatic sphere, all linked spell effects from the planetar, and temporarily suppress of of the dragons items. (swift action)Drop rod (free action)
Be sad because rod get burned up and it wasn't cheap :( (free action)
Quick draw short bow (free action)
Cast widened (spell perfection) Anti-magic shell and imbue arrow. (standard action) With buffs down dragon AC is 41. Seeking arrow negates miss chance from cover (smoke). Bab +10, +5 bow, Dex +5, Truestrike +20 = hit on a 2.
Watch lava flood chamber after my actions are complete (mmmm abstracted action economy :D)
(Round 5)
Laugh and watch as the dragon burns to death (irony) because the antimagic shell is suppressing his fire immunity (su) and his flight (su)(Round 6) Swim to surface and fight other demons who still have fire immunity
(Round 10ish) Win, because I'm 20th level caster and they are CR 8 and 18.
Supposing you were right before round 4...
Nope. Arrow stops being magic when antimagic field comes, so it doesn't follow Incendious, since it burns. Incendious round (your 4-5 round), takes 20d6 fire, moves away the 20x20 feet aura with a swim check. Magic has returned now. He answers you with...
The AMF doesn't start until the arrow hits, that's how imbue arrow works.
As for the immunity being (ex), I was wrong about that. I'm not seeing how the wall of force is blocking a burst effect which is destroyed by that burst though.
At the very least he is trapped in the lava with no means of escape for 190 minutes and when the prismatic sphere goes down his planetar buddy gets burned up. 190 minutes is a long time to be under lava, not breathing.
Edit: can't find flight as (su) either ;p. but without his freedom of movement ability he will have to swim out of the lava before he suffocates. At that point he is in the open and can be easily defeated by a squad of regular archers waiting for him on the crater rim.
Just wondering, by casting some Earthquakes, like two or three casts, 50 feet below the dragon (in a good point, without hazards), would it collapse? Our buddy would be at least perplexed, and he also need to build (or find, or conquer) another liar.
Edit:
I meant that the arrow hits, applies the effect, then the arrow stops being magic reverting to simple wood and burns, with the antimagic field still up. The field can't move now. The dragon moves 20 feet and is out of the antimagic field.
He has to come into the open or suffocate. He can't use his breath weapon or chain lightening for 190 minutes. Gust of wind removes the cover issue from the smoke.
Edit: fixed stupid auto-correct issues.
Or even better I cast my own wall of force blocking his exit and he suffocates. No archers required :)
Just wondering, by casting some Earthquakes, like two or three casts, 50 feet below the dragon (in a good point, without hazards), would it collapse? Our buddy would be at least perplexed, and he also need to build (or find, or conquer) another liar.An earth gliding druid could hammer the area with multiple earthquakes in relative safety which might well drive him from his lair. He could go hunting for the druid though, Limited Wish will let him copy Elemental Body for earth elemental form but if it got dispelled he could be in trouble. He also wouldn't have tremorsense so would be hunting blind.
He could hunt with monstrous physique IV (level 6 on sorc/wiz list), tremorsense and burrow speed 60 feet.
A 20th wizard of earth ignore barriers made of stone and earth. Surprise dispel!
Do we have as long as we want to prep for the fight, or are we working on a time limit?
Also, any reason we don't just wait for him to attack the city and deal with him outside of his lair? (Provided we can do some silly things to prepare for him attacking.)
Also...
I have ignored the environment in the CR calculation as nothing about it should create much in the way of difficulty for any high level character.
As noted at the start his lair is warded to prevent teleportation or divination. Naturally it doesn't affect him, although I appreciate that is pure fiat.
I'm not sure how I should feel about this.
Do we have as long as we want to prep for the fight, or are we working on a time limit?
Also, any reason we don't just wait for him to attack the city and deal with him outside of his lair? (Provided we can do some silly things to prepare for him attacking.)
Also...
I have ignored the environment in the CR calculation as nothing about it should create much in the way of difficulty for any high level character.As noted at the start his lair is warded to prevent teleportation or divination. Naturally it doesn't affect him, although I appreciate that is pure fiat.I'm not sure how I should feel about this.
The environmental conditions (ie in a single-entry chamber filled with lava and hiding in a force wall box completely surrounded by that lava) definitely add to the CR, the teleporting and scrying wards do as well. But it doesn't matter in the end because we aren't getting XP for beating the encounter. It is just a "see if you can" puzzle.
Do we have as long as we want to prep for the fight, or are we working on a time limit?Does it make a difference and if so what is your answer/solution for both?
You can do an awful lot of things with enough time as a higher level character. I don't have anything specific mathed out yet, I just wanted to know what was acceptable or not from andreww.
He could cause an awful tremendous amount of damage in very short order to any town/city/village considering Incendis is a great wyrm.
I'm of the opinion that in pathfinder, death is cheap and preventable, and that is assuming a worst case scenario where we don't respond as soon as he shows up. Again, all depends on what time constraints there are.
And for the comments on CR, I was more of pointing out how selective anti-magic house rules are seen as 'not difficult for a high level character'. Maybe it isn't hard and I'm just horrible at charop (highly likely), but just getting around the environment seems to be more than half the challenge.
I think I'm near to the solution, but I've a some questions:
1) Does lava counts as rock/earth? Technically they are the same thing but one is hotter.
2) If I'm able to watch inside the force walls, can I see where everybody is placed? If unaware of combat, do they move (consider two minutes of time)?
3) The force room is 40 feet high. If I hit an upper wall of force with a mage's disjunction (40 feet radius), does the lower collapse?
4) Is possible, given the time, to build something below that room? I mean, something enormous, like as big as the Empire State Building.
5) The dragon has to die? Or be defeated is enough? Like having his soul trapped, or being confined in a demiplane, or sent in a plane where he can't make any trouble.
Also, any reason we don't just wait for him to attack the city and deal with him outside of his lair? (Provided we can do some silly things to prepare for him attacking.)
Mostly because you do not know which city he will strike next and due to mind blank cannot use divinations to determine which it is ahead of time.
...Now his attentions have turned to your homeland...
.....Are you telling me my character doesn't know where he's from?
Yeah, I know this is getting a little pedantic, but come on sir. This challenge is getting out of hand. Lets recap:
1)Selective magic trait that prohibits anybody other than the dragon from using teleportation of any kind.
2)Using wish to create an effect other than what the spell was intended (I'm looking at the wall of force used horizontally)
3)Destroying a force wall, even when silenced, alerts him. Even while asleep.
4)He's a member of a noble family (scion of war)*
5)I'll give you this one, it might be obvious, but when Prismatic Sphere states "When you're inside it, however, the sphere blocks any attempt to project something through the sphere (including spells)", wouldn't that remove the shield other effect as soon as he leaves the buff bubble?
6)When you say "He arguably has 4 limbs capable of carrying things" after discussing that both claws are holding rods... Are you suggesting that he casts spells with his wings, his toes, or that he's carrying coconuts under his dorsal guiding feathers?
7)Somehow, challengers forget where they come from.
Also, I'm going to call you out. You say you've got a character that has completed this challenge. Show/share your work please?
*yeah, I get it, he's optimized. But seriously? I'm gonna give you a hard time for that one sir.
This is Snicker, he's a goblin. For the most part the build relies on stealth to get to the dragon and minions. Attacking, then hiding in plain sight with hellcat stealth. So far he is only stated to level 10 using a 10 point buy and no items.
Male Goblin Rogue 3/Summoner (Synthesist)
N Small Humanoid (Goblinoid)
Hero Points 1
Init +2; Senses Perception +10; darkvision 60ft
Defense
AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10 (+0 armor, +2 Dex, +1 size); trap sense +1
hp 48 (3d8 + 7d8 +)
Fort +3 Ref +7 Will +6; trap sense +1
Offense
Speed 30 ft (6 squares)
Melee
Ranged
SA Sneak attack +2d6,
Statistics
Str 8 Dex 14 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 13
Base Atk +7 CMB +5 CMD 17
Feats Dark-Stalker (D&D 3.5 [Lords of Madness]), Skill Focus (Stealth), Stealthy, Hellcat Stealth, Hellcat Pounce
Traits Highlander (+1 stealth; +2 in rocky or hilly areas), ???
Skills Perception +10, Stealth +29 (+30 in rocky or hilly areas); ride +4 racial, stealth +4 racial
Languages Goblin
SQ Fast Movement, skilled, fused link, shielded meld, maker’s jump, trapfinding, evasion
Combat Gear
Stats in Synthesist Form
Base Form Quadruped, Small
Init +2; Senses Perception +10; darkvision 60ft
Defense
AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10 (+2 shield, +3 Dex, +1 size, + 8 natural armor); shielded meld, 20% concealment in anything but bright light, trap sense +1
hp 48 plus 27 temp hp (3d8 + 7d8), fused link
Fort +4 Ref +9 Will +8; shielded meld, trap sense +1
Immunities Fire, acid
Offense
Speed 40 ft (8 squares); maker’s jump 1/day
Melee bite +15 (1d4 + 1) and 2 claws +15 (1d3 +1)
Ranged
SA Sneak attack +2d6, summon monster IV 6/day
Summoner Spells
3rd 1/day - 2
2nd 3/day - 4
1st 4/day - 5
0 at will - 6
Statistics
Str 12 Dex 18 Con 11 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 13
Base Atk +8 CMB +9 CMD 22
Skills Perception +18, Stealth +41 (+42 in rocky or hilly areas); perception +8 racial, ride +4 racial, stealth +12 racial
SQ Fast Movement, skilled, fused link, shielded meld, maker’s jump, evasion, trapfinding, improved evasion
Evolutions bite, limbs (legs) (2), immunity (fire), pounce, claws, limbs (arms), shadow blend, skilled (stealth, skilled (perception)
p.s. I am aware that there might be some errors in the stat block.
This is Snicker, he's a goblin. For the most part the build relies on stealth to get to the dragon and minions. Attacking, then hiding in plain sight with hellcat stealth. So far he is only stated to level 10 using a 10 point buy and no items.
** spoiler omitted **...
I don't see how he could win the fight, even with hellcat stealth. Could you explain more?
Snicker isn't going to be attacking in a conventional manner. Bypassing the environment and the guardians used is easy with the high stealth checks and walking right by them or attacking them without breaking stealth.
Using dark-stalker with hellcat stealth is one of the only ways to bypass certain (su) and (ex) senses to get real close to the dragon, and I mean real close, like climbing inside the dragon. It's a long shot yes.
Now finding the dragon's sanctum under the lava would be challenging for Snicker, but the dragon has to eat sometime and probably doesn't want to spend the remainder of its days inside of that cage either. That is when he will try to get inside the dragon because the gods know he will not be grappling a dragon or trying any other combat maneuvers.
At level 10 though and no items, there is room for adjustments. If the interior venture does work out, Snicker would attempt to release multiple pellets formed from the wondrous item "dust of dryness", releasing 100 gallons of either alkaline or salt water per pellet, neither a pleasant experience. He would also be a willing participant for the teleport contingency to make sure his attempt was successful.
Of course not but high level characters have concerns that go beyond a single town or city.
Assuming intent is not something I'm a fan of. Its entirely possible a character could hail from a tiny island village that has no ties to any other nation.
As has been already mentioned earthquake, demand and gate are all means by which he can be forced from his lair. It is also entirely possibly to remove his defences. The divination block is simply a large scale Private Sanctum and the teleportation block a variant on Forbiddance. Disjunction is a thing after all.
Oh don't get me wrong sir, I'm not saying your challenge is impossible. People have already posted some great ideas. My main concern, which I outlined in my previous post (which you have yet to really reply to, I guess I should be grateful you read the first line of that post? I don't know your schedule, I'm sure you'll get to it eventually), was thus: if you want to pose a RAW tactical charop challenge, you need to 1) play by the same rules your players do, and 2) explicitly state all of the rules/tactics/conditions before the challenge begins. Vague "He may do something in so many days", or "well I houserule breaking force wall works like this" is hard to work with.
Either way, I'm going to give you a B for effort. It looks like you put a lot of thought into the encounter, but there are still a few places you could improve on.
This is salvageable though. Still looking to see what other builds come.
You. I like you. We could be friends. We should be friends.
It is a variant on forbiddance, hardly unusual for a high level caster to achieve.
My point was that its not achievable RAW, which is generally what these kinds of contests are about. You clearly stated it in your original post though, so not as big a deal.
You think that wish cant reshape a wall of force? You must have a very limited imagination.
Again, my point was that this is not possible via RAW without dm fiat. If we were running an actual game, I'd be down with it. But in a charop contest?
He wont hear the sound of the wall being broken, he *may* notice the change in the internal conditions of his sanctum even while asleep. Being asleep imposes a -10 penalty on his +52 perception.
Let me try and math this as best I can.
Wall of force is invisible and stationary, so +40 to the dc to notice.
Lets assume the goal is to get him while he sleeps, so the dc increases by 10.
I cannot find any modifiers for adding silence to this, so that would be up to you.
The closest base perception check listed is "notice a creature burrowing beneath you", which is set at 25.
So he has a 52 perception vs 40(invisible)+10(asleep)+25(burrowed)+silence. I guess it is in your realm how much silence is worth. And I'm really not sure about the burrowed modifier either. It might be better for you to set the DC so we can build accordingly, unless you plan on running it for contenders (that could be fun!)?
Seriously though, that seems really high. Can somebody check my math?
The noble family bit is entirely fluff text attached to the feat. It is not actually a requirement and is therefore irrelevant.
I was more of giving you a playful ribbing. From the bottom of my post: *yeah, I get it, he's optimized. But seriously? I'm gonna give you a hard time for that one sir. Sorry if that didn't come off as a laugher, I guess I'm not so good at humor.
Spells only require line of effect at the point at which they are cast.
I'm guessing that is at the initial casting only and not for the entire duration? Might be something to ask on the rules forum, don't wanna clog things up here.
I am suggesting that dragons have talons on their front and rear legs both of which are capable of carrying things but the glove of storing idea works much better.
So does he stand on one leg, hold the rod he wants to use in the other, and use the free hand for somatic requirements? Maybe he keeps one held in his tail like a teifling with the Prehensile Tail trait? Help me understand this here. If he still has wealth left over for the gloves, keep in mind that means he can only really have one rod active. To use the other from the glove, he's still going to have to drop the first item to complete somatic components.
Again, my main concerns are that you use a lot of gray areas, house rules, and dm fiat, which (in my own friendly personal opinion) aren't entirely appropriate for a charop challenge.
Edit: I'm still curious about the build you mentioned that succeeded. What approach did you take?
@Kayerloth
I noticed that the OP has used a spell from D&D 3.5 Mage's Private Sanctum, I think it is in the spell compendium and DM fiat.
Though I am curious about using called and summoned creatures, if that disqualifies the contestants on the clause of "doing it alone".
p.s. @OP
How do magic and psionics interact in your challenge?
It very much depends on the DC you are getting on Ball Lightning. I would go with Arcane bloodline for the extra +2 for School Power and make sure to use Persistent Dazing Ball Lightning. I would apply one with a Rod or Staff of the Master Necromancer to allow you to Heighten it a bit as well to squeeze some more DC's. I might be inclined to use Time Stop after the Quickened Disjunction in order to drop multiple dazing Balls on him.
Instead of Form of the Dragon I would use Shapechange. FoTD duration is really really short, Shapechange is 10 minutes/level. Your key issue is winning initiative. I am not sure if the Duelling Cestus works as you may have to be wielding it in the same way as the defending property got the shaft. You have an excellent chance of winning initiative between +15 or so from Noble Scion, 2 from Reactionary and 4 from a familiar.
Overall not a bad way of doing it. His reflex defence is clearly his weak spot and Dazing Spell exploits it quite effectively. Dazing him does however trigger his Contingency so you really need to get rid of it. You might have to risk blowing the walls then hitting the dragon with a disjunction/dazing ball lightning in round 1. The odds of success are good though assuming a ball lightning DC somewhere around 36. Add in a limited wish to reduce his first save by 7 as well.
You can't use attack spells in a time stop.
Scrapping my goblin, I found a guy in my old files for D&D 3.5 who is full of more cheese than the dragon.
I present a monk... who, I think I figured did 512d8 + 60 damage per unarmed strike. Lots of cheese for the monk from 3.0 and 3.5.
Well... I'll post the class levels at least.