Why worship an evil deity?


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I was wondering, who would worship an evil deity. Possibly, why would a "sane" person do it. Anyone with any kind of logical capabilities. What gain would you get?
Being evil sends the characters into Hell or Abyss, and there he will suffer.

At the moment, I've come up with some rationalizations, but if you can help me with more, you are welcome.

  • You are mad.
  • Out of fear. You somehow fear your god. But why him/her in particular? There are plenty of evil deities, archdevils and archdemons. And you might just as well fear good deities now...It doesn't convince me fully as is.
  • Maybe...you hope you will ascend the ranks of Hell and Abyss and become a devil or demon yourself?
  • You genuinely believe your deity is right. Well ok, why would any sane character worship a god of massacre?


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    Because you want to destroy/conquer/remake the _____ in your image because it's fun/you want power/you're a narcissist.

    Liberty's Edge

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    Power. Evil deities grant power, and (and here's the important part) they don't much care what you do with it, at least in terms of morality, which is an awfully nice carrot to put in front of someone who's already Evil. The same can be said of many Neutral deities, but access to them isn't always unrestricted, nor is their unconcern to quite the same degree, usually.

    Ignorance. The vast majority of people are not really aware of what the afterlife is like, making the reasons not to worship such a God less than common knowledge.

    Tradition/upbringing. There are people in the real world who continue believing in and following religions that see them as lesser than other people for being female, or that condemn them to hell for, oh for example, being gay. Some people absolutely leave these religions over these issues, and others choose to interpret the faith differently...and others just live with the constant fear of hell, or content in their subordinate place. Religion is a choice in the sense that you can change religions...but it's not as easy a choice as where you're going for dinner. Choosing to believe that something you've always thought was true is false is no easy feat.

    Obligation/being trapped. If you once pray to an Evil God and they come through...you're hooked. You feel you can't tell anyone, and you know how such terrible creatures look on traitors, so you're theirs now. A good example of this is praying to Lamashtu for your baby to be born healthy. She'll grant that request...and you know that the deformity is your fault, and that you owe the Mother of Monsters. This overlaps somewhat with cult recruiting practices in both Golarion and the real world; one thing many cults do is force their initiates to do something unforgivable (child murder, rape, killing one's parents, cannibalism, etc.) and make it clear to them, psychologically, that no one but us will ever accept you after this. It's a very effective tactic of securing loyalty.

    Justification/validation. People like being told that what they want to do already is the right thing to do. If you're a sadistic monster, Zon-Kuthon provides that validation, that "You're right to do this." pat on the back. That feeling can be highly addictive, and few people willingly give it up even knowing it's bad for them in the long run.

    Immortality. Urgathoas a big one for this. Becoming immortal somehow neatly dodges the problems with worshiping an Evil god, leaving all the benefits with no obvious price.

    The whole "I'll be the exception." thing about becoming a high ranking demon or devil that you mention. This is very common among criminals such as thieves in real life. Most thieves never get any richer than they would in a legitimate job (often significantly less so)...but sometimes they do, and they all think they'll be that one guy who manages to beat the odds.

    All the reasons listed above can combine pretty easily with each other, making for a lot of people who do worship for more than one of these reasons.

    Sczarni

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    rebelling, my momma worship iomede so I'm going to worship asmodeus... that'll show that self righteous woman!...

    or you could just go aethiest despite being able to see or talkwith gods and their avatars...


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    Because the various religions tend to shun different things.

    For example, someone who practices body modification, especially some of the more extreme forms, and is into things like S&M would probably be shunned by all the good or neutral deities to some degree. Generally because those things are considered "distasteful" in most societies. On the other hand, that's pretty much the entire schtick of Zon-Kuthon. He's basically the god of sadomasochists.

    Jaded by "normal" desires? Solve the puzzle box and let Zon-Kuthon show you what true pleasure, that which you could never have known to exist, is.

    Liberty's Edge

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    Unruly wrote:

    Because the various religions tend to shun different things.

    For example, someone who practices body modification, especially some of the more extreme forms, and is into things like S&M would probably be shunned by all the good or neutral deities to some degree. Generally because those things are considered "distasteful" in most societies. On the other hand, that's pretty much the entire schtick of Zon-Kuthon. He's basically the god of sadomasochists.

    Jaded by "normal" desires? Solve the puzzle box and let Zon-Kuthon show you what true pleasure, that which you could never have known to exist, is.

    While the point in general is well taken, the specific example is wrong. Shelyn is a fan of love in all it's many forms...including this one (assuming it is love and not just sex). And Calistria's definitely down with that. Cayden Cailean's probably cool with whatever makes you happy, too, as long as there's consent. Ditto Desna. And that's just ones where there's some explicit support for that attitude.

    Some societies might frown on such things but there's little evidence that the Gods themselves are down on BDSM.


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    I've always wondered about the "Being evil sends the characters into Hell or Abyss, and there he will suffer." The Christian beliefs about hell, you are sent there as punishment by God is where most people get their views of Hell. But if you are worshiping an evil deity and actively and successfully pursue that God's cause, why wouldn't that god reward you? The reward wouldn't be the same as that of the god of Peace and Love, but being made into some sort of powerful demon just might be what the worshiper wants.


    Vod Canockers wrote:
    I've always wondered about the "Being evil sends the characters into Hell or Abyss, and there he will suffer." The Christian beliefs about hell, you are sent there as punishment by God is where most people get their views of Hell. But if you are worshiping an evil deity and actively and successfully pursue that God's cause, why wouldn't that god reward you? The reward wouldn't be the same as that of the god of Peace and Love, but being made into some sort of powerful demon just might be what the worshiper wants.

    I think there's a difference between the people who worship an evil deity like Asmodeus devoutly and the people who are just evil jerks that deserve to be punished.

    I imagine that former situation as more along the lines of going to Hell/Abaddon/The Abyss to become a devil/daemon/demon and aid your god/revel in the carnage. A Truly CE person would probably love being a demon, or even just an evil soul killing and devouring other souls in the Abyss in order to become a demon, however the GM wants to fluff it.


    Unless you have, at least, some ranks in knowledge religion and/or knowledge planes then you will not know the things you mention about afterlife.

    Liberty's Edge

    Vod Canockers wrote:
    I've always wondered about the "Being evil sends the characters into Hell or Abyss, and there he will suffer." The Christian beliefs about hell, you are sent there as punishment by God is where most people get their views of Hell. But if you are worshiping an evil deity and actively and successfully pursue that God's cause, why wouldn't that god reward you? The reward wouldn't be the same as that of the god of Peace and Love, but being made into some sort of powerful demon just might be what the worshiper wants.

    The thing about Evil deities is they might well not give much of a damn (pun intended). They certainly promise their favored individuals good treatment in the afterlife (or at least strongly imply it), and they even follow through...sometimes. If they happen to care about that soul in particular. There are a few exceptions to this (the Horsemen come to mind, they just eat your soul), but that's the general rule.

    Now, if you're a great crusader in the God's name and know nothing but success, yeah, you'll likely get a nice position. If you fail, or just aren't notable? Not so much. Evil Gods don't feel the need to reward devotion, just success.

    That's where the 'beating the odds' thing I mentioned becomes relevant. Most worshipers don't get a very good position...but some do, and everyone thinks they can be one of them.

    This is actually fairly explicitly laid out in the books dealing with the afterlife.


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    Burma "The Tusk" wrote:
    Vod Canockers wrote:
    I've always wondered about the "Being evil sends the characters into Hell or Abyss, and there he will suffer." The Christian beliefs about hell, you are sent there as punishment by God is where most people get their views of Hell. But if you are worshiping an evil deity and actively and successfully pursue that God's cause, why wouldn't that god reward you? The reward wouldn't be the same as that of the god of Peace and Love, but being made into some sort of powerful demon just might be what the worshiper wants.

    I think there's a difference between the people who worship an evil deity like Asmodeus devoutly and the people who are just evil jerks that deserve to be punished.

    I imagine that former situation as more along the lines of going to Hell/Abaddon/The Abyss to become a devil/daemon/demon and aid your god/revel in the carnage. A Truly CE person would probably love being a demon, or even just an evil soul killing and devouring other souls in the Abyss in order to become a demon, however the GM wants to fluff it.

    Actually...I give you the petitioner, which shines an interesting light onto the events after death.

    So, certain handpicked individuals of evil deities might avoid centuries of torture and agony to become an powerful evil outsider and continue serving their god. The rest will suffer. Of course, the evil people always think they're going to be the best and avoid the fate that dooms their peers.


    Because you are evil and you are going to a very bad place when you die depending on Law vs. Chaos so you might as well make the best of it while you can!


    Jesuncolo wrote:
    I was wondering, who would worship an evil deity. Possibly, why would a "sane" person do it. Anyone with any kind of logical capabilities. What gain would you get?

    Unlike the real world (not looking for a debate on region here) there is ZERO doubt that gods exist. They are real, you can sometimes see them, and they grant real power. Given this fact some people will take the power and use it for their own selfish reasons.

    Groups of these like minded individuals will create communities and then before you know it whole generations are indoctrinated to the cause. Are all Drow evil? Likely no, but I wouldn't turn my back on one or assume they'll do the right thing. Not a chance.

    Imagine if you were poor, barely surviving, and someone said "I can help you. I can give you real power and wealth." What would you do? These things happen in the real world and that's why we have gangs willing to kill to survive.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    And again more importantly. NPC's don't generally have Paizo subscriptions to the books that would get them inside information. :)

    Liberty's Edge

    LazarX wrote:
    And again more importantly. NPC's don't generally have Paizo subscriptions to the books that would get them inside information. :)

    True of random commoners, but it's only a DC 16 Knowledge (Planes) check at most to know how Petitioners work (probably more like DC 11). It's not a deep secret or anthing, just something random folks don't know.

    So it's necessary to speculate why a Cleric or wizard would follow such a God since they almost certainly have this information.


    First I would ask do we know that the lore of Golarion that worshiping an evil god sends u to the AByss? Makes sense but I never read that. Anyway....

    I could c a sane person who would worship a deity not for the deity himself but for what he represents or who he favors. For example, a judge who spent most of his life bringing order to chaos and enforcing contracts/laws of men might worship Asmodeous. This could be because he respects the order that he brought to Hell or anything else that makes sense to him. Perhaps he worships out of a sense of duty to the patron of his occupation much as a soldier would pray to the god of war.

    Now if u ask why would someone become a clergyman, cultist, or active participant of the evil deity that is far harder. I believe that for someone to go down this route it boils down to 1) need, 2) power, 3) or genuine belief. Genuine belief could be as easy "I was raised in the church" and someone simply never knew anything else. Power is self explanatory though the reasons are not as simple. Need I define as a person was unable to do something that they felt was urgent and called upon the deity in some way. Because of the deity, presumably, aiding them he turns to worshiping the deity as compensation or gratitude.

    Finally, why would someone worship a good deity? Think about it for a moment. SOME of the tenets of good deities encourage u to risk ur life. The classic Good Samaritan case to beggars, slay any wrongdoer, always tell the truth, etc. it is the genuine belief in something that these believers would endure these risks. The same happens in modern day real times.

    Hope that helps a bit.


    Jesuncolo wrote:

    I was wondering, who would worship an evil deity. Possibly, why would a "sane" person do it. Anyone with any kind of logical capabilities. What gain would you get?

    Being evil sends the characters into Hell or Abyss, and there he will suffer.

    Another huge problem with traditional cosmology.


    If you look at the faiths of corruption books they do a good job of showing how evil gods attract followers from a wider perspective.

    First when your primary worshipers are human this means you need to offer something to them to both reel them in then keep them interested.

    For asmodius this is law and order for urgathoa this is vice and for norgorber it is secrecy and informarion.

    Some of the gods also have deeper backstory stuff. Zon kuthon and nocticula both have stuff to draw in non evil people.


    Folks that are convinced that they deserve this fate, or that it's worth it to achieve their goals.

    Contradictory sources. Sure, that knowledge check means some reliable sources claim that horrific fate will happen, but you're being told differently by the evil god recruiter. People get scammed and conned all the time, even when the facts which could save them are readily available.


    Maybe worshipping the evil diety gives them a "safe" spot in the afterlife.


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    Taking a look at Nidal provides an interesting view on this. The common people worship Zon Kuthon basically because it's the norm in Nidal. Most people aren't evil, but they go to church once in a while for some routine devotion, they get tortured a bit, because that's what everyone else they know does for their faith, and then they go back to their lives as basically-normal people.

    ...In short: "Everyone else was doing it, I just wanted to be popular."

    Liberty's Edge

    Gluttony wrote:

    Taking a look at Nidal provides an interesting view on this. The common people worship Zon Kuthon basically because it's the norm in Nidal. Most people aren't evil, but they go to church once in a while for some routine devotion, they get tortured a bit, because that's what everyone else they know does for their faith, and then they go back to their lives as basically-normal people.

    ...In short: "Everyone else was doing it, I just wanted to be popular."

    This...is not how things are in Nidal. Read Nightglass if you want to know how things are in Nidal. Hint: They are messed up.

    The people don't do this sort of thing because everyone else does, they do this sort of thing because terrible things come in the night for those who don't. It's the poster child nation for worshiping out of fear.

    There's certainly also an element of tradition in it, and also of the obligation thing I mentioned above (their ancestors made a deal with Zon-Kuthon...they still feel bound by it)...but those take a distant second to the terrible things that happen to you if you don't worship the Midnight Lord, in terms of reasons to worship.


    Great power, no responsibility.

    Promises of stuff, in this life and the next
    Vengeance upon your neighbours , so you can covet their ox, etc
    it is the only way, only hope you see

    Dark Archive

    Disorder is to be shunned. Only order matters. Only Lord Asmodeus can bring order to the world.


    Zhayne wrote:
    Jesuncolo wrote:

    I was wondering, who would worship an evil deity. Possibly, why would a "sane" person do it. Anyone with any kind of logical capabilities. What gain would you get?

    Being evil sends the characters into Hell or Abyss, and there he will suffer.
    Another huge problem with traditional cosmology.

    Not seeing a problem.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Deadmanwalking wrote:
    Gluttony wrote:

    Taking a look at Nidal provides an interesting view on this. The common people worship Zon Kuthon basically because it's the norm in Nidal. Most people aren't evil, but they go to church once in a while for some routine devotion, they get tortured a bit, because that's what everyone else they know does for their faith, and then they go back to their lives as basically-normal people.

    ...In short: "Everyone else was doing it, I just wanted to be popular."

    This...is not how things are in Nidal. Read Nightglass if you want to know how things are in Nidal. Hint: They are messed up.

    The people don't do this sort of thing because everyone else does, they do this sort of thing because terrible things come in the night for those who don't. It's the poster child nation for worshiping out of fear.

    Which makes it pretty much a par for the colonial society presented in Nathaniel Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter". It hadn't been that long that the wrong choice of religion (Catholic vs. the local flavor of Protestant) in the wrong area could lead you to some real problems keeping your head on straight.... or on, for that matter.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

    There was a Writer Seminar that touched on this once at GenCon. My memory fails me on all the reasons given but some could be a matter of protection, make a sacrifice to a god of disease to spare yourself or someone you care about from a deadly plague. Pray to a dark god as you plot revenge against someone. Power and Immortality are common reasons too. Perhaps you believe that by serving an evil god you will somehow be rewarded in the afterlife. Or just to burn the whole world down.

    Courses people are sometimes coerced into following an evil god. Either raised that way. Or tricked into it believing that you were following some benevolent force initially and got in too deep to back out.


    Well in real life there are Satanists. From what I hear, they worship Satan for power and like the idea of burning forever when they die. Cause a bit of them are pyros. Also, they are encouraged to sin as much as they can, and as we know certain vices are pleasurable.


    Deadmanwalking wrote:
    Gluttony wrote:

    Taking a look at Nidal provides an interesting view on this. The common people worship Zon Kuthon basically because it's the norm in Nidal. Most people aren't evil, but they go to church once in a while for some routine devotion, they get tortured a bit, because that's what everyone else they know does for their faith, and then they go back to their lives as basically-normal people.

    ...In short: "Everyone else was doing it, I just wanted to be popular."

    This...is not how things are in Nidal. Read Nightglass if you want to know how things are in Nidal. Hint: They are messed up.

    The people don't do this sort of thing because everyone else does, they do this sort of thing because terrible things come in the night for those who don't. It's the poster child nation for worshiping out of fear.

    There's certainly also an element of tradition in it, and also of the obligation thing I mentioned above (their ancestors made a deal with Zon-Kuthon...they still feel bound by it)...but those take a distant second to the terrible things that happen to you if you don't worship the Midnight Lord, in terms of reasons to worship.

    There's a difference between small-town Nidal and metropolitan Nidal there. Nightglass deals with Pangolais, the capital, which would be an obvious center of worship for Zon-Kuthon. It's understandable that Pangolais would be messed up. It's presumably a nasty LE settlement. That's not a sample of average people though.

    The Midnight Mirror module on the other hand looks at Karpad, which is a much smaller settlement in Nidal, and gives an example of a non-evil settlement where the central god is evil. The people of Karpad are basically as I described, normal, with a bit of Kuthite worship. (The gazetteer of the town outright says that they worship quietly and traditionally by default, and aren't fanatics.)

    ...So yeah, Pangolais and the center of Zon-Kuthon's worship is going to be very bad, but Pangolais is out of the realm of 'normal' people. That's where the fanatics come into play. Average people tend to not be evil, and if we're talking about non-evil worshippers of evil gods, Karpad provides a more focused example of such non-evil people than Pangolais does, because Karpad is a non-evil settlement.


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    Mechagamera wrote:
    Zhayne wrote:
    Jesuncolo wrote:

    I was wondering, who would worship an evil deity. Possibly, why would a "sane" person do it. Anyone with any kind of logical capabilities. What gain would you get?

    Being evil sends the characters into Hell or Abyss, and there he will suffer.
    Another huge problem with traditional cosmology.
    Not seeing a problem.

    You aren't looking very closely.

    Since, in typical PF settings, the afterlife is confirmed to exist, and your alignment (and thus your destination) can be empirically determined, and you know what's going to happen to you when you die ... nobody with an ounce of brains would follow an evil god.

    Another reason I liked Eberron ... the afterlife sucked for EVERYBODY.


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    Consider the way that people defend monstrous things by claiming tha,t in their ideal forms, they are not evil. Many people claim that communism works if it is practiced 'right', never mind the tens of millions dead or living in misery under it. There are some who claim that gangs are not inherently malevolent, that only a few rogue members cast an undeserved shadow on the group as a whole. The recent KKK leader who shot three people at Kansas City Jewish centers was publicly renounced by other Klan groups who purport that they themselves are non-violent.

    Terrorist groups in the real world have not trouble recruiting people who believe in their causes. Mafioso often dispense their largesse to gain the affection and loyalty of non-criminals who live in their areas. Many people are duped by simple acts of generosity.

    Any of these approaches and many others could be practiced by followers of evil religions to gain followers.

    Finally, the reason people worship evil deities is : The PCs need people to kill.


    Zhayne wrote:
    Mechagamera wrote:
    Zhayne wrote:
    Jesuncolo wrote:

    I was wondering, who would worship an evil deity. Possibly, why would a "sane" person do it. Anyone with any kind of logical capabilities. What gain would you get?

    Being evil sends the characters into Hell or Abyss, and there he will suffer.
    Another huge problem with traditional cosmology.
    Not seeing a problem.

    You aren't looking very closely.

    Since, in typical PF settings, the afterlife is confirmed to exist, and your alignment (and thus your destination) can be empirically determined, and you know what's going to happen to you when you die ... nobody with an ounce of brains would follow an evil god.

    Another reason I liked Eberron ... the afterlife sucked for EVERYBODY.

    You are ignoring the fact that people in Golarion are absolutely an alignment and it is easy to determine what your alignment is if for some reason you don't already know. Evil souls go to evil places. There is no reason for them not to worship an evil god.

    and when their souls get to those evil places they are treated evilly, not as punishment but because that is what evil does. That is what they would do if they were in charge.

    Now if you are neutral then there is a questions. Why do it? Perhaps ignorance, or perhaps it is lip service, or perhaps you are taking a gamble that if you stay neutral despite working with evil that you will not go to Hell or the Abyss, etc.


    Then nobody would be evil, at all, unless they were total morons.

    Still a problem. With cosmology, with alignment, with extant gods.


    The path of evil is quick and rewarding. Besides, you can pay with your soul LATER. For now, live it up and enjoy the perks of power and wealth.

    Asmodeus seduces his followers with wealth and power. Those who follow his path are rewarded with position, vices and money. All the while, he is digging in his claws into their souls to claim upon their death.

    Urgathoa offers power, both personal and military. Those who serve well enough may find a kind of immortality in undeath.

    Think of Zon-Kuthon as being like Pinhead from the Hellraiser movies.

    "I thought I'd gone to the limits. I hadn't. The Cenobites gave me an experience beyond limits... pain and pleasure, indivisible"
    His follower are sadists or masochists or both. Pain is a gift to be given and received. It brings truth and knowledge.

    Lamashtu represents the dark bestial side of your inner nature. That can be a dangerous temptation to both Barbarians and Druids.


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    It's already been touched on, but being evil, and worshiping an evil god is NOT a bad thing for the practitioner as long as they further their gods will WELL.

    A powerful Wizard may find Azmodeus' message inspiring and true. If they commit appropriate acts in his name would gladly take the form of a greater devil in death.

    Obviously the Evil gods must have some manner of rewarding model followers for their services.

    Liberty's Edge

    Gluttony wrote:
    There's a difference between small-town Nidal and metropolitan Nidal there. Nightglass deals with Pangolais, the capital, which would be an obvious center of worship for Zon-Kuthon. It's understandable that Pangolais would be messed up. It's presumably a nasty LE settlement. That's not a sample of average people though.

    That's actually not entirely true. The first bit of the book actually occurs in a small village, not unlike the one you describe...and the faith is still largely fear based.

    Gluttony wrote:
    The Midnight Mirror module on the other hand looks at Karpad, which is a much smaller settlement in Nidal, and gives an example of a non-evil settlement where the central god is evil. The people of Karpad are basically as I described, normal, with a bit of Kuthite worship. (The gazetteer of the town outright says that they worship quietly and traditionally by default, and aren't fanatics.)

    Again, the book goes into that. And you're right, the villages aren't Evil, and are relatively quiet in their worship, and all pay homage to Zon-Kuthon...but the reason for said worship is at least partially that people and things check on them to make certain of their faith. It's at least as much that as tradition that keeps them following the faith.

    Gluttony wrote:
    ...So yeah, Pangolais and the center of Zon-Kuthon's worship is going to be very bad, but Pangolais is out of the realm of 'normal' people. That's where the fanatics come into play. Average people tend to not be evil, and if we're talking about non-evil worshippers of evil gods, Karpad provides a more focused example of such non-evil people than Pangolais does, because Karpad is a non-evil settlement.

    So's the village of Crosspine where the protagonist of Nightglass is born. They seem like pretty nice people, actually. Also, they're terrified. All the time.


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    Zhayne wrote:

    Then nobody would be evil, at all, unless they were total morons.

    Still a problem. With cosmology, with alignment, with extant gods.

    Nobody would smoke at all, unless they were complete morons. No one would use hard drugs, unless they were complete morons ... Et al.


    Unruly wrote:
    Jaded by "normal" desires? Solve the puzzle box and let Zon-Kuthon show you what true pleasure, that which you could never have known to exist, is.

    Zon-Kuthon and puzzle boxes? I see what you did there.


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    Domestichauscat wrote:
    Well in real life there are Satanists. From what I hear, they worship Satan for power and like the idea of burning forever when they die. Cause a bit of them are pyros. Also, they are encouraged to sin as much as they can, and as we know certain vices are pleasurable.

    That's not entirely true. There are various forms of Satanism, just like there are various forms of Christianity. They encompass both the belief in Satan as an actual deity and the belief in him as a symbol. While self-empowerment is typically a theme, the idea of Hell or a focus on fire usually isn't.

    LaVeyan Satanism is a common, if not the most common, modern Satanist religion, and is the one practiced by the organized Church of Satan. They don't actually believe in Satan as a deity. They see Satan as a figurative representation of power, individualism, and instinctual urges. To a LaVeyan Satanist, there is no heaven or hell and all gods are externalized constructs of the human mind that were created by others to place limits on an individual's potential by forcing conformity to a common standard. Instead, LaVeyan Satanism believes that since the gods are creations of humanity and of ourselves, by worshiping a god you are worshiping yourself by proxy. So they cut out the middle man and worship themselves as their own gods, believing in individual freedom, personal power, and self-indulgence. They also don't tolerate ignorance or stupidity, and through this believe that one of a person's duties is to better themselves through education.

    In fact, individuality, knowledge, and self-indulgence tend to be common tenets between the various Satanistic belief systems. Though how they go about it are often different. For instance, unlike LaVeyan Satanism, Luciferianism believes in Satan as an actual deity, but he isn't exactly the Satan portrayed in the Bible. Instead, he is the Morning Star and the Lightbringer, an angel who sought to bring knowledge and enlightenment to the world and was punished for it. They see his temptation of Eve to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge as his attempt to bring knowledge to the world and to awaken the human potential which God had chosen to limit. For doing this, he was cast out of Heaven. In this way he is seen in the same light as Prometheus, the Greek Titan who defied the gods and gave the knowledge of fire and civilization to humanity, and was punished for it by being chained to a rock where his liver would be eaten and regrown for all eternity. And since history is written by the victor, who's to say that the Bible wasn't written with a massive bias and slant to make God look better than Lucifer?

    Though I will say that in terms of Golarion, that sort of argument is a lot harder to make since the gods aren't nebulous beings of questionable existence. They're unquestionably real, and they seem more than willing to tell you what they actually stand for. But everyone has different desires. If Asmodeus can promise power to the person who wants it, and he actually delivers, then it would be very, very easy to follow him regardless of what may happen in death. Politicians, kings, nobles, lawyers. They're all people who could be seduced or even willingly throw themselves at Asmodeus's feet. Someone like Rovagug is a bit harder to figure out who would worship him, but maybe they're just doomsayers who want to bring about the end of the world?


    I think fear is the most interesting reason. There doesn't need to be a particular reason for the God you choose; it's the experience you're creating. But now you're a cleric of a CE god because he's charmed you and threatened your entire family. You begin to worship out of fear and seek his ends for solely that reason. I like this concept so much I may need to find a way to accommodate it into my usual game which is often composed of some lawful good characters. But I think there's always ways to compromise, sorry for the tangent. But fear, you've become a disciple, once you're in you're in for life.


    "Some people just want to watch the world burn."


    Zhayne wrote:

    Then nobody would be evil, at all, unless they were total morons.

    Still a problem. With cosmology, with alignment, with extant gods.

    I am not sure why you are ignoring it. Alignment is not a choice. People and creatures in Pathfinder are born an alignment and some are born evil, bad, horrible. They are not born a blank slate and become an alignment based on their actions.

    They are born EVIL with capital letters, they like to kick puppies and kill for fun.

    It does not matter who they worship they go to hell or the abyss, etc.

    In pathfinder souls go to an outer plane (read afterlife) based on their alignment not who they worship. If you are LE but worship a good god you will still go to hell when you die if you are LE when you die.

    In this circumstance it makes every sense to worship an evil god. It is not a matter of being smart or stupid it is more like the parable of the frog and the scorpion.

    If you don't know it, the the scorpion asks the frog for a ride across a river. Half way he stings the frog and they both drown. Why would he do that? Because it is in his nature.


    Mike Franke wrote:
    Zhayne wrote:

    Then nobody would be evil, at all, unless they were total morons.

    Still a problem. With cosmology, with alignment, with extant gods.

    I am not sure why you are ignoring it. Alignment is not a choice. People and creatures in Pathfinder are born an alignment and some are born evil, bad, horrible. They are not born a blank slate and become an alignment based on their actions.

    They are born EVIL with capital letters, they like to kick puppies and kill for fun.

    It does not matter who they worship they go to hell or the abyss, etc.

    In pathfinder souls go to an outer plain (read afterlife) based on their alignment not who they worship. If you are LE but worship a good god you will still go to hell when you die if you are LE when you die.

    In this circumstance it makes every sense to worship an evil god. It is not a matter of being smart or stupid it is more like the parable of the frog and the scorpion.

    If you don't know it, the the scorpion asks the frog for a ride across a river. Half way he stings the frog and they both drown. Why would he do that? Because it is in his nature.

    Reality would suggest social context and upbringing are far more important in determining a person's character. I don't understand why, nor see any evidence of, Pathfinder being any different. Nor is there great value to think that characters were are trying to embody are simply who they are because they were born that way. I can think of nothing more boring. If that's the character someone wants to play, it sure is fine, but the universe doesn't restrict it and my characters are the way they are because of the life they've led, the culture they grew up in, and the lessons they've learned.


    Mike Franke wrote:


    I am not sure why you are ignoring it. Alignment is not a choice. People and creatures in Pathfinder are born an alignment and some are born evil, bad, horrible. They are not born a blank slate and become an alignment based on their actions.

    They are born EVIL with capital letters, they like to kick puppies and kill for fun.

    That's actually a very, very simplistic view that doesn't hold with what Pathfinder actually says at all.

    Alignments can, and do, change. Otherwise there wouldn't be rules about non-neutral druids losing powers, non-lawful monks losing powers, lawful barbarians losing powers, etc. because no once could ever change alignments. Those rules would be wasted space and without meaning because hey, you pick an alignment and it's set for life, right? Since being non-lawful is a requirement to even pick barbarian as a class, there's no way that you could ever become lawful, so there's no need for rules that say lawful barbarians lose their ability to rage.

    Characters and NPCs aren't born into alignments, they're born true neutral and then their alignment changes as they perform various acts and deeds. Yea, that kid who kicks puppies all the time growing up is probably going to turn out evil, but if he grows out of it as an adult and goes on to open an orphanage and takes excellent care of the orphans who live there? Well, then he's probably going to swing over to the "good" side again. If he keeps up the puppy kicking while being otherwise extremely charitable? He's probably gonna sit right around neutral when he dies.

    Liberty's Edge

    2 people marked this as a favorite.
    Mike Franke wrote:
    I am not sure why you are ignoring it. Alignment is not a choice. People and creatures in Pathfinder are born an alignment and some are born evil, bad, horrible. They are not born a blank slate and become an alignment based on their actions.

    Actually, you're incorrect. Alignments are descriptive, not prescriptive. You get one based on your actions, and it changes based on your actions. So...babies are in fact Neutral until they start doing things.

    Aligned Outsiders at first glance appear to be an exception...until you remember that they were, in fact, once mortals who wound up that alignment.

    Mike Franke wrote:
    They are born EVIL with capital letters, they like to kick puppies and kill for fun.

    Again, wrong. Some people are that Evil, but nobody's born that way.

    Mike Franke wrote:

    It does not matter who they worship they go to hell or the abyss, etc.

    In pathfinder souls go to an outer plane (read afterlife) based on their alignment not who they worship. If you are LE but worship a good god you will still go to hell when you die if you are LE when you die.

    And wrong again, at least in Golarion. Devout followers of a God who succeed at living up to that God's ideals go to that God's realm when they die. those who fail tend to get sent bad places as punishment, those who don't worship anything particularly devoutly go to their Aligned plane. So...a CE Cleric of Gorum goes to the God's feast hall, not the Abyss. Now...going to Lamashtu's realm is really only a reward if she's particularly pleased with you but this is still a thing. And a LE follower of a Good god has failed to live up to his own ideals and definitely goes to Hell.

    Mike Franke wrote:
    In this circumstance it makes every sense to worship an evil god.

    Here you're actually right. If you know you're evil and aren't going to change, following a God at least gives you a chance at an afterlife you'll have some say over. Maybe not a good chance, but a chance.

    Mike Franke wrote:

    It is not a matter of being smart or stupid it is more like the parable of the frog and the scorpion.

    If you don't know it, the the scorpion asks the frog for a ride across a river. Half way he stings the frog and they both drown. Why would he do that? Because it is in his nature.

    And again, because that's not the way Alignment works, you are wrong.


    Create Mr. Pitt wrote:


    Reality would suggest social context and upbringing are far more important in determining a person's character. I don't understand why, nor see any evidence of, Pathfinder being any different. Nor is there great value to think that characters were are trying to embody are simply who they are because they were born that way. I can think of nothing more boring. If that's the character someone wants to play, it sure is fine, but the universe doesn't restrict it and my characters are the way they are because of the life they've led, the culture they grew up in, and the lessons they've learned.

    1. IF Pathfider were reality then you would be correct. Pathfinder is not reality.

    2. There is tons of evidence to the contrary including racial alignments, aligned outer planes, spells that identify alignment absolutely, etc.

    3. I am, and I believe the thread is too, discussing the population of Golarion in general, not characters. Characters are our special flowers that we control. Thus the internal alignment struggle can be an excellent part of our roleplay experience but PC's are not normal people.

    4. Although the possibility of redemption and alignment change do exist in Golarion, that sort of thing is in my opinion for special NPC's and PC's for the purpose of driving adventure and story telling. Your average evil BBG is evil because he is evil and he will always be evil and that is if he is not absolutely evil because he is a race or creature that is inherently evil. Assuming of course that he is evil.


    Mike Franke wrote:

    3. I am, and I believe the thread is too, discussing the population of Golarion in general, not characters. Characters are our special flowers that we control. Thus the internal alignment struggle can be an excellent part of our roleplay experience but PC's are not normal people.

    4. Although the possibility of redemption and alignment change do exist in Golarion, that sort of thing is in my opinion for special NPC's and PC's for the purpose of driving adventure and story telling. Your average evil BBG is evil because he is evil and he will always be evil and that is if he is not absolutely evil because he is a race or creature that is inherently evil. Assuming of course that he is evil.

    The fact that NPCs can change alignment at all is evidence to the contrary of your "Alignments are hard-wired. Period." stance. The fact that there are rules, spells, and items, that deal specifically with alignment change, whether to force it or prevent it, makes the argument of alignment change being possible a moot one, since it's spelled out that yes, it is, and it isn't just limited to PCs.

    Liberty's Edge

    Mike Franke wrote:
    1. IF Pathfider were reality then you would be correct. Pathfinder is not reality.

    No it isn't. But it has gravity, and morality is still primarily learned not inborn. Pathfinder is similar to the real world in many ways this is just one more.

    Mike Franke wrote:
    2. There is tons of evidence to the contrary including racial alignments, aligned outer planes, spells that identify alignment absolutely, etc.

    Racial alignments are the most common ones for that race, usually due to culture. There are lots of exceptions to pretty much all of them.

    And aligned planes are where people of that alignment tend to go after they die. How does that invalidate alignment being a choice? Ditto spells to identify it. Alignment is objectively true...but it doesn't actually follow that it's inherent in a being. It's an objective measure of that creature's morality...but the morality still comes from the same sourcs it does in real life.

    Mike Franke wrote:
    3. I am, and I believe the thread is too, discussing the population of Golarion in general, not characters. Characters are our special flowers that we control. Thus the internal alignment struggle can be an excellent part of our roleplay experience but PC's are not normal people.

    We are indeed. The normal people still get to make choices and change alignments.

    Mike Franke wrote:
    4. Although the possibility of redemption and alignment change do exist in Golarion, that sort of thing is in my opinion for special NPC's and PC's for the purpose of driving adventure and story telling.

    One of the things that people like about Pathfinder over 4E is that NPCs and PCs all use the same rules. This applies to redemption and alignment just as it does everything else.

    Mike Franke wrote:
    Your average evil BBG is evil because he is evil and he will always be evil and that is if he is not absolutely evil because he is a race or creature that is inherently evil. Assuming of course that he is evil.

    Really? Then why do almost all of them have extensive backgrounds explaining why they are how they are? Nualia from RotRL comes immediately to mind...


    Deadmanwalking wrote:


    Mike Franke wrote:
    Your average evil BBG is evil because he is evil and he will always be evil and that is if he is not absolutely evil because he is a race or creature that is inherently evil. Assuming of course that he is evil.
    Really? Then why do almost all of them have extensive backgrounds explaining why they are how they are? Nualia from RotRL comes immediately to mind...

    So does Staunton Vhane, who was originally a paladin. And isn't there a demon lord in Wrath of the Righteous who was originally a devil as well?


    Deadmanwalking wrote:

    Actually, you're incorrect. Alignments are descriptive, not prescriptive. You get one based on your actions, and it changes based on your actions. So...babies are in fact Neutral until they start doing things.

    Mike Franke wrote:

    It does not matter who they worship they go to hell or the abyss, etc.

    In pathfinder souls go to an outer plane (read afterlife) based on their alignment not who they worship. If you are LE but worship a good god you will still go to hell when you die if you are LE when you die.

    And wrong again, at least in Golarion. Devout followers of a God who succeed at living up to that God's ideals go to that God's realm when they die. those who fail tend to get sent bad places as punishment, those who don't worship anything particularly devoutly go to their Aligned plane. So...a CE Cleric of Gorum goes to the God's feast hall, not the Abyss. Now...going to Lamashtu's realm is really only a reward if she's particularly pleased with you but this is still a thing. And a LE follower of a Good god has failed to live up to his own ideals and definitely goes to Hell.

    I cut out some just to save space on the quote. In my frustration I made an absolute case and with alignment there are few absolutes, however ...

    1. Some people might be born neutral and then fluctuate one way or another but others are born good or evil. For example a particular boy does not become evil because one day he decides to experiment on neighborhood pets and if he does it enough he is suddenly evil. He decides to do it because he is evil and that is his nature. His neutral pal might be tempted to participate against his better judgment and move closer to evil but his good pal is going to say hell no and go tell his parents.

    1a. Technically you are correct, creatures are not forced to act a certain way because of their alignment. However, they usually do act that way because it is their alignment. It is not a "I must kick that dog because I am evil" situation. It is an "I want to kick that dog" situation because he is evil.

    2. I am currently reading Pathfinder Tales "The Redemption Engine" (pretty darn good so far) set in Golarion and written by a member of the Paizo team. It is basically all about alignment and worship of the gods. It directly talks about how souls go to planes based on their alignment not worship.

    3. Perhaps devout followers (which I read to be clerics and Paladins not the vast majority of regular worshipers) are a rare exception but this is really only an issue with neutral gods for the purpose of this discussion. Maybe a CE follower of Gorum could go to his hall but a LE follower of Sarenrae or Desna is not suddenly going to a good aligned afterlife because he/she could not be a priest of those gods. If you are not casting divine spells given to you by a god, your soul is going to a plane based on your alignment.

    4. Evil aligned people and creatures don't see a problem with being evil as has been discussed in many threads and thus rarely look for redemption. Once you are evil you like it that way.

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