Sell me... why is your build the BEST at Slaying Great Wyrm Red Dragons?


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Wondering what class/archetype/ feats/spells/ abilities work best to efficiently kill a smart Great Wyrm Red. Paladin oath against wyrms? Admixture blaster converting fire spells to cold? Ranger with favored enemy? What is THE BEST dragonslayer...p.s. race matters, looking to go elf.


dot

Liberty's Edge

Gunslinger. Because your attacks all hit. Period. And all add Dex (which you have maxed out to a crazy degree) to damage.

Pistolero does more damage, but Musket Master doesn't have to get as close and might thus be better. Hard decision. But Gunslinger is the way to go.

Just take the standard ranged combat stuff, plus Signature Deed if going Pistolero, something to let you fly (winged boots come to mind) maybe Gun Twirling and TWF feats if you have the Feats to spare. Maybe grab a Trait for Stealth as class and max it to get close enough.

Wizard's a close second (as it always is), along with Alchemist (actually alchemist might technically be better at short ranges, though they are a bit nova-y).


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Wizard who makes dragon simulacra ... or twenty.


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Daenar wrote:
Wondering what class/archetype/ feats/spells/ abilities work best to efficiently kill a smart Great Wyrm Red. Paladin oath against wyrms? Admixture blaster converting fire spells to cold? Ranger with favored enemy? What is THE BEST dragonslayer...p.s. race matters, looking to go elf.

Anyone with a holy axiomatic dragon bane bow !

Liberty's Edge

insaneogeddon wrote:
Anyone with a holy axiomatic dragon bane bow !

Holy Axiomatic Dragonbane gun is better. For a Gunslinger anyway. :)


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Well it's certainly not reliable, but a witch getting forced reincarnation to stick would be HILARIOUS. Reincarnate turns it from a great wyrm back into a young adult.

Assuming the draconic reincarnate table looks something like

d10:

1-black
2-blue
3-green
4-red
5-white
6-brass
7-bronze
8-copper
9-gold
X-silver

Going from a cr22 to a cr 9-14 depending on the roll and only a 10% chance to stay the same color.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Don't rely on energy damage unless you plan to dispel the Wyrm's protection/resist spells.


Diviner (Foresight) Wizard with all DC-enhancing and Caster Level options towards Necromancy.

Go first, cast the Suffocation spell (Mass if you can) and then wait while it dies.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Because the dragon is smart, a 20th level character would need the following:

1) Good damage with a touch attack that doesn't have spell resistance, or the ability to hit a minimum AC of 43. It would actually be higher due to a +5 ring of protection or potion of shield of faith, amulet of natural armor or potion of barkskin +5 and haste, so assume AC 49-54.

2) True seeing (the dragon has displacement and greater invisibility up, and the spell seeming to mess with you).

3) Protection from fire

4) Ability to see though smoke/blind sight

5) A lot of hit points

6) A good Will save or immunity to fear (or you will run away).

7) Immunity to stunning would really help (due to weird, stunning critical, greater shout).

8) Ability to beat the dragon in melee when it is in an anti-magic field.

If it were not for #8, I would say that an alchemist would be your best bet. That gives you the fire protection, an attack that can hit the dragon, blind sight (via echolocation extract), true seeing (via extract), immunity to critical hits (via elemental body), extra hit points (via greater false life and heal), spell resistance, and all kinds of protection from melee attacks.

If the dragon were in an anti-magic field, then a gunslinger would be a good bet (provided gunpowder is not supernatural), but the gunslinger lacks some of the other points.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Gunslinger. Because your attacks all hit. Period. And all add Dex (which you have maxed out to a crazy degree) to damage.

Pistolero does more damage, but Musket Master doesn't have to get as close and might thus be better. Hard decision. But Gunslinger is the way to go.

Just take the standard ranged combat stuff, plus Signature Deed if going Pistolero, something to let you fly (winged boots come to mind) maybe Gun Twirling and TWF feats if you have the Feats to spare. Maybe grab a Trait for Stealth as class and max it to get close enough.

Wizard's a close second (as it always is), along with Alchemist (actually alchemist might technically be better at short ranges, though they are a bit nova-y).

Yeah, Gunslinger, especially Pistolero, would be the dragon-slayer.

I think an archer ranger, perhaps with just a dip of Paladin (preferably Divine Hunter for free Precise Shot) for Smite 1/day to get +cha to attack or the exact opposite -- a Paladin archer (**not Divine Hunter**) with just a dip of Ranger for some Favored Enemy (and to avoid the Paladin's level 20 crapstone) using Smite, or aura of justice if in a party, combined with Saddle Surge and Litany of Righteousness spells. Either way, riding a flying mount via animal companion. I guess a Roc specifically in the Ranger's case, Paladin has more options.

Liberty's Edge

@moon glum:

A Gunslinger can get most of that, and might not need some of it with a Stealth score in the 40s by 20th. And doing something like 1d8+11d6+31 seven times (ie: enough to kill it) before the dragon can do anything...

It gets much worse as a Gunslinger 14/Paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 4, since that lets you Smite for even more damage and actually does just about everything on the aforementioned list.

That's all without dual-barreled weapons, for the record.

Grand Lodge

Depends.... prolly a wizard with a hieghtened+Maximized Touch of Gracelessness. If it sticks his Dex Becomes 1. He is basically paralyzed and you can have your warrior cut off his head without a fight.


Dex 1 is not paralyzed, and touch of gracelessness can't reduce it below 1.

The dragon's AC will be slightly easier to hit and his reflex will be a bit lower, and that's about it for how much touch of gracelessness will impact the dragon.

A caster abusing the hell out of Dazing Spell, Spell Perfection, and Persistent Spell to daze-lock the dragon from far far away with nigh impossible save DCs would be pretty lethal, though.

Grand Lodge

Quote:
The dragon's AC will be slightly easier to hit and his reflex will be a bit lower, and that's about it for how much touch of gracelessness will impact the dragon.

Don't forget: if the subject moves more than half its speed, it falls prone. If the subject flies, its maneuverability is reduced by one step (perfect maneuverability becomes good, good becomes average, and so on).

Poor flight (if in a cave that out) and a stumbling prone mess....

Not going to much a fight for a fighter who has resist Energy rolling and a Wizard that is only down 2 spells off his list...I don't even call that a fight to be honest.


Some sort of Horizon Walker build that takes Extra Rogue Talent: Terrain Mastery over and over again to get favored terrain bonuses of over +20 in all relevant terrains, then uses Terrain Dominance to use it as a favored enemy bonus.


Might as well use a Persistent/Heightened Bestow Curse (Greater). Greater chance of success for the same result.

And doesn't require a melee touch attack.

Or go for the "50% chance to not act" effect, which is super good.

Or if you're gonna get in close anyway, a Maximized Calcific Touch can get it in 2 rounds, guaranteed death (can take Dex to 0, save only negates Slow effect not ability damage).

As long as you can survive one round in melee (or use a Reach rod or something, or Quicken a second one, etc.) he's toast.

Actually a single Maximized/Empowered Calcific Touch might be a guaranteed one round.

Touch of Gracelessness is an all around poor option if you're gonna do Dex damage.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

@moon glum:

A Gunslinger can get most of that, and might not need some of it with a Stealth score in the 40s by 20th. And doing something like 1d8+11d6+31 seven times (ie: enough to kill it) before the dragon can do anything...

How can a gunslinger do that amount of damage? Just curious, I'm not really much into gunslinger, so I don't know his potential. Could you tell me how you get those 11d6+31? Seems really high. And 7 times in a single round? How?


Blackstorm wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

@moon glum:

A Gunslinger can get most of that, and might not need some of it with a Stealth score in the 40s by 20th. And doing something like 1d8+11d6+31 seven times (ie: enough to kill it) before the dragon can do anything...

How can a gunslinger do that amount of damage? Just curious, I'm not really much into gunslinger, so I don't know his potential. Could you tell me how you get those 11d6+31? Seems really high. And 7 times in a single round? How?

The 11d6 baffles me as well. 5d6 I get (Signature Deed: Up Close and Deadly on a Pistolero), but where's the other 6d6 from?

The +31 is easy enough though. Dex at high levels will be maxed. Probably at least 28 (+9), Gun Training at 17th level (+3), a +5 gun (+5), Deadly Aim (-5/+10 at 16th), so that's +28 there. Point Blank Shot adds another, so +29.

The extra +2 can be come across in any number of ways.

Actually...there's some of the extra 6d6. Something like Holy + Dragon Bane is an Extra 4d6+2. So 1d8+9d6+31.

Attacks is simple too. 4 from BaB, 1 from Rapid Shot, two from TWFing/Improved = 7 attacks.

There's a few other ways I think but that's the most likely.

Grand Lodge

That's another good touch spell Rankin.

Next one is spell perfection and magical lineage e nervation.

Maximized empowered enervate + quickened maximized empowered enervate + wand of enervate from familiar. Takes off 12-16 levels. Won't kill him but that is a major game changer. 2nd round form of the dragon 3 on your familiar and take bets on the dragon fight.


"Rankin"

=/

5=/


Hmm, let me do some calculations...

14d8 with greater vital strike is 56d8, maximized is 448 damage, the great wyrm has 449 HP, so a +2 to damage (something has gone very wrong if we don't have at least a +2 to damage) will take it to less than zero.

So yeah... Conqueror Ooze one hit TKOs the Great Wyrm Red dragon. 20th level build of course (or 19th at least to pick up greater vital strike).

For reference:

Slam attack of Carnivorous crystal - 7d8
Increased damage from Strong Jaw (roughly 2x) - 14d8
Greater Vital Strike - 56d8
Furious Finish (maximized vital strike damage) - 56x8 = 448 damage
5 levels of Martial Artist - No fatigue from Rage Cycling

prototype00

P.s. As a per Beast Shape IV, I also have resist fire 20, if that helps any, and evasion.

So the question really becomes, how many Great Wyrm Red Dragons are there?

Shadow Lodge

Gunslinger does massive touch AC damage.

Paladin ignores DR, gets 2 stats to attack, and gets double level to damage..

Pistolero gets damage stacked onto the guns

Paladin/Pistolero manages massive amounts of attacks with massive damage v. an AC of about 5ish. Stack on TWF and Double-Barreled Pistols[and Gloves of Storing], and you are looking at 1/2 rounding it.


Elf: Knife Master 10/Master Spy 10
With a +58 on stealth (20 skills, 10 from feats, 13 from dexterity (18+2 (racial) +5 (level) +5 (from tome) +6 (from belt)), 15 from greater shadow armor) and a bunch of many other bonuses negate the perception of the dragon. The master spy negates any divination spell the dragon could cast. Use a vorpal, brilliant energy dagger. Wear a pair of truesight goggles. A ring of fire protection 30 will do the trick. The dragon needs to physiologically sleep and can't cast restoration. Just walk near his head when he sleeps and coup the grace him. You don't need to fight if you can just win. Buy a scroll of ethereal jaunt if you care about alarm.


Rynjin wrote:

Or if you're gonna get in close anyway, a Maximized Calcific Touch can get it in 2 rounds, guaranteed death (can take Dex to 0, save only negates Slow effect not ability damage).

As long as you can survive one round in melee (or use a Reach rod or something, or Quicken a second one, etc.) he's toast.

Actually a single Maximized/Empowered Calcific Touch might be a guaranteed one round.

Touch of Gracelessness is an all around poor option if you're gonna do Dex damage.

Hmm, I had thought about Calcific Touch but wrote it off because of its 1/round hard limit, which is unfortunate. But I suppose powered up enough it can tear through horrible dragon Dex in a single strike.

On that note, Magus can add Wizard spells to their list at high level (or earlier via arcana) and could turn that touch into a 15-20 crit chance by delivering it through a scimitar. Might be the best way to go for Calcific Touch-based plans.

EDIT: Or, go the wizard route but after delivering the Calcific Touch if it still has dex left, rely on an immediate action Emergency Force Sphere to protect you from retribution.

Grand Lodge

Sorry phone auto corrected your name. Dang smart phone isn't as smart as they play them off to be.


Or Quicken another one via a rod (assuming you went Maximized instead Maximized/Empowered).

Shadow Lodge

Lv. 15 Ronin Samurai with Vorpal Katana. Walks up, uses 1/day power to get a nat 20, and just has to confirm the crit for auto-death no save.


And then the dragon's Jingasa negates the crit. ;)

What? He never said it was a naked dragon.


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There was a thread a few weeks ago asking for advice on making an epic Great Wyrm Red Dragon encounter. I assume a great wyrm red dragon will have a lot of defenses to use up supplies of PCs before they reach the dragon, and might (in one of my campaigns definitely) have a network of spies, and agents who hire adventurers. The PCs in question may have procured items and artifacts for the dragon through an intermediary, the dragon probably knows their strengths and weaknesses. If I were running the encounter, the dragon would have a lernean cryohydra or similar encounter two or three encounters before the dragon's lair, to use up protection from element supplies (and maybe catch the PCs off guard if they only have protection from fire). One or two encounters before the lair are a pair of advanced iron golems, the fight will make a lot of noise and give the dragon time to cast buff spells.

Once in the lair, the dragon has levers on the ceiling, disguised as stalactites:

Lever 1: pours steak sauce on PCs
Lever 2: Activates anti-magic field starting at height ten feet above floor level
The dragon then uses his/her breath weapon to melt piles of gold at a higher level, turning them into molten gold (combo lava/quicksand rules)
Lever 3: Pours molten gold into anti-magic field area where some or all PCs are
Lever 4: Opens trap door to 40'x40'x80' deep pit, and gravity drops molten gold into pit
Lever 5: Pours water into pit (which has an anti-magic field, of course)
Lever 6: Release the kraken

With the network of spies, the dragon will have countermeasures prepared for PCs who can fly

There are brilliant anti-dragon builds here, but a great wyrm red dragon will know his/her weaknesses and will know the strengths and weaknesses of the PCs.


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ParagonDireRaccoon wrote:
good stuff

Indeed there are many tactics a "good" DM could (and should!) use to make encounters with Dragons more challenging and more memorable. Problem is, none of these tactics are in the stat block for the beasts, so that comes down to how clever the DM actually is.

Threads like these are more centered around the fun of the mathematical challenge of crunching enough numbers to overcome the creature as-written. There is no perfect scenario just as there is no perfect character for defeating creatures in Pathfinder/D&D. But sure is fun to talk about it! This thread has already enlightened me to a few nuances I was previously unaware of! (Jingasa!? awesome!)

Either way...just my 2 cp


The only problem with gunslinger is that the dragon can usually stay out of touch attack range using flyby attack. Or just grapple/crush it. Or cast Fickle Winds or something.

Gunslinger can take it down really fast, but they might need some support based on the spell selection and tactics of the dragon,


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
A caster abusing the hell out of Dazing Spell, Spell Perfection, and Persistent Spell to daze-lock the dragon from far far away with nigh impossible save DCs would be pretty lethal, though.

This is pretty much the best idea for taking out anything.

Shadow Lodge

Rynjin wrote:

And then the dragon's Jingasa negates the crit. ;)

What? He never said it was a naked dragon.

Fair enough. Add on Cockatrice Grit vials[a few of them], and you should be fine though.

The Exchange

Because my build involves being swallowed whole and then casting enlarge person while I'm in its gullet, suffocating the beast.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Rynjin wrote:
Blackstorm wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

@moon glum:

A Gunslinger can get most of that, and might not need some of it with a Stealth score in the 40s by 20th. And doing something like 1d8+11d6+31 seven times (ie: enough to kill it) before the dragon can do anything...

How can a gunslinger do that amount of damage? Just curious, I'm not really much into gunslinger, so I don't know his potential. Could you tell me how you get those 11d6+31? Seems really high. And 7 times in a single round? How?

The 11d6 baffles me as well. 5d6 I get (Signature Deed: Up Close and Deadly on a Pistolero), but where's the other 6d6 from?

The +31 is easy enough though. Dex at high levels will be maxed. Probably at least 28 (+9), Gun Training at 17th level (+3), a +5 gun (+5), Deadly Aim (-5/+10 at 16th), so that's +28 there. Point Blank Shot adds another, so +29.

The extra +2 can be come across in any number of ways.

Actually...there's some of the extra 6d6. Something like Holy + Dragon Bane is an Extra 4d6+2. So 1d8+9d6+31.

Attacks is simple too. 4 from BaB, 1 from Rapid Shot, two from TWFing/Improved = 7 attacks.

There's a few other ways I think but that's the most likely.

Axiomatic(the lawful version of holy) gets you the remaining 2d6


Ah. I generally don't assume weapons above like a +7 are available automatically, so I figured +5 Holy Dragon Bane was high enough.


Depends of the scenario. Only Schrödingers Wizard(or some cheated Sorcerer) beats Schrödingers Dragon.

That being said, I'd think in an open battle a Zen Archer might be great here. You can outdamage dat dragon by spamming arrows and have high saves to fend off most spells.

Kitsune Fey Sorcerer Cha 34(20+6 Headband+5Tome+3 levels) can reach a DC of 52(19+12Cha+2Bloodline+2Greater Spell Focus+5 Favored Class) on his Dominate Monster. If the dragon doesn't do research you in advance and casts Protection from alignment you could make him your pet.
Ready another Doninate Monster spell via contingency to pierce it's SR.

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Remember that you have to take into account the possibility of a contingent anti-magic field (the dragon can do that right from its stat block).


I3igAl wrote:

Depends of the scenario. Only Schrödingers Wizard(or some cheated Sorcerer) beats Schrödingers Dragon.

That being said, I'd think in an open battle a Zen Archer might be great here. You can outdamage dat dragon by spamming arrows and have high saves to fend off most spells.

Kitsune Fey Sorcerer Cha 34(20+6 Headband+5Tome+3 levels) can reach a DC of 52(19+12Cha+2Bloodline+2Greater Spell Focus+5 Favored Class) on his Dominate Monster. If the dragon doesn't do research you in advance and casts Protection from alignment you could make him your pet.
Ready another Doninate Monster spell via contingency to pierce it's SR.

Dragon probably doesn't needs spells for a Zen Archer, unless it's something silly like Fickle Winds. He just needs to grapple to stop their archery.

Also, doesn't that DC calculate to 40? 19+12+2+2+5?

Liberty's Edge

Rynjin wrote:
Blackstorm wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

@moon glum:

A Gunslinger can get most of that, and might not need some of it with a Stealth score in the 40s by 20th. And doing something like 1d8+11d6+31 seven times (ie: enough to kill it) before the dragon can do anything...

How can a gunslinger do that amount of damage? Just curious, I'm not really much into gunslinger, so I don't know his potential. Could you tell me how you get those 11d6+31? Seems really high. And 7 times in a single round? How?

The 11d6 baffles me as well. 5d6 I get (Signature Deed: Up Close and Deadly on a Pistolero), but where's the other 6d6 from?

The +31 is easy enough though. Dex at high levels will be maxed. Probably at least 28 (+9), Gun Training at 17th level (+3), a +5 gun (+5), Deadly Aim (-5/+10 at 16th), so that's +28 there. Point Blank Shot adds another, so +29.

The extra +2 can be come across in any number of ways.

Actually...there's some of the extra 6d6. Something like Holy + Dragon Bane is an Extra 4d6+2. So 1d8+9d6+31.

Attacks is simple too. 4 from BaB, 1 from Rapid Shot, two from TWFing/Improved = 7 attacks.

There's a few other ways I think but that's the most likely.

As mentioned, I was assuming the Axiomatic. It's not always available, but neither are magical guns at all...but aside from the weapon, that was a seriously basic build, so I don't feel too bad.

As for attack number, I was assuming the Gunslinger got a surprise round, and had Haste. that's 7. TWF would add two more.

Mechalibur wrote:

The only problem with gunslinger is that the dragon can usually stay out of touch attack range using flyby attack. Or just grapple/crush it. Or cast Fickle Winds or something.

Gunslinger can take it down really fast, but they might need some support based on the spell selection and tactics of the dragon,

This would be why I mentioned ridiculous Stealth...

Shadow Lodge

Haste+TWF[and Improved]+Rapidshot+Double-barreled Pistol+Gun Training[Pistol]=1 dead dragon in less than 1 turn.


I'm not very creative, but let me think about this a little bit...

All magic SR-dependent offense can get negated by the dragon's Antimagic Field.
Most ranged options can get negated by a dragon if it uses fickle winds. The dragon can't use both Antimagic Field AND fickle winds, but a character that relies on SR magic OR normal ranged weapons will get screwed over by the dragon with the right defenses.

The dragon has two big weaknesses - touch AC and low DEX. The ideal dragonslayer should exploit these weaknesses.

With the little creativity I have, I believe a good dragonslayer may be a barbarian with Lesser Hurling (or variants thereof) to target touch AC without getting negated by fickle winds. Then the barbarian will use Crippling Blow to target the Dragon's other weakness - low DEX. Even if the Dragon saves, he takes half-damage as DEX damage. Best of all, none of these abilities are magical or supernatural, meaning it will hit the dragon regardless of Antimagic Field.

.... Actually, I think it's hard for a Great Wyrm to use Fickle Winds, because a colossal creature counts as 32 medium creatures, and the Great Wyrm is only CL 19 for 19 medium creatures' worth of Fickle Winds... I guess the Wyrm could still increase wind-levels with other spells...


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Well, these sorts of discussions always flounder a bit as the specifics are left unidentified. So, lets stat up our Great Wyrm Dragon and put him in a lair which he can make use of. I have provide a proposed and rather altered stat block. Lets assume our dragon can be found inside his lair. It is of course in the heart of a Volcano and warded against teleportation and divination.

The environment is obviously exceptionally hot. Lets treat is as the same level as a forest fire. As such you are taking 1d6 fire damage per round and need to make a DC15 fortitude save every round or 1d4 on lethal damage. The DC goes up by 1 every round. Wearing metal armour causes you to be affected by the heat metal spell causing you to take 0/1d4/2d4 damage per round. As the temperature doesn't decline then you will also take 2d4 fire damage per round every round from round 3. Each round everyone is at risk of catching on fire. Make a DC15 reflex save every round or take 1d6 fire damage.

The cavern is of course also filled with thick choking smoke which entirely blocks line of sight. It might also choke you. Make a DC15 fortitude save in the fist round. If you fail you spend the entire round coughing and choking. Each round the DC increase by 1. If you choke for two rounds in a row take an extra 1d6 non lethal damage. The entire cavern counts as dimly lit and is filled with flickering shadows cast by the sullen glow of the lava.

The chamber is of course entirely filled with lava. It is 300' across and there are no ledges or islands of rock to walk on. The entrance passage comes to a platform about 20' square some 40' above the level of the lava. The lava varies between 80 and 100 feet in depth. Anyone making contact with the lava takes 2d6 fire damage. Falling in causes 20d6 fire damage. Lava damage continues for 1d3 rounds after you cease contact but at half the damage. The dragon starts the encounter in the centre of the chamber fully immersed beneath the lava. His horde is hidden at the bottom of the chamber inside a permanent prismatic sphere.

Finally here are our dragons stats. I have changed his spell list and feats and also given him PC wealth. Giving him PC wealth makes him CR23.

Incendius the Great:

Great Wyrm Red Dragon CR 23

CE Colossal dragon (fire)
Init +12; Senses dragon senses, smoke vision; Perception +52
Aura fire (10 ft., 2d6 fire), frightful presence (360 ft., DC 33)

DEFENSE

AC 57, touch 10, flat-footed 56 (+1 Dex, +39 natural, -8 size, +8 armour +5 deflection +1luck +1insight)
hp 546 (29d12+3d8)

Fort +35, Ref +24, Will +32 (+3 versus mind affecting)

DR 20/magic; Immune fire, paralysis, sleep; SR 33
Weaknesses Vulnerability to cold

OFFENSE

Speed 40 ft., fly 250 ft. (clumsy)

Melee bite +41 (4d8+29), 2 claws +40 (4d6+19), 2 wings +36 (2d8+10), tail slap +36 (4d6+29)

Space 30 ft.; Reach 20 ft. (30 ft. with bite)

Special Attacks breath weapon (70-ft. cone, DC 36, 24d10 fire), crush (Large creatures, DC 36, 4d6+29), incinerate, manipulate flames, melt stone, tail sweep (Medium creatures, DC 30, 2d8+29)

Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th; concentration +31)

At will—detect magic, discern location, find the path, pyrotechnics (DC 21), suggestion (DC 21), wall of fire

Spells Known (CL 20th; concentration +31)

9th (4/day)—time stop, mage's disjunction (DC28), shapechange

8th (6/day)—prismatic wall, mind blank, sunburst (DC29), summon monster VIII, power word stun, greater planar binding

7th (6/day)—limited wish, plane shift (DC26), spell turning, hungry darkness (DC28)

6th (7/day)—contingency, greater dispel magic, chain lightning (DC29), anti-magic field, greater heroism

5th (7/day)—telekinesis (DC 24), teleport, wall of force, fickle winds

4th (7/day)—fear (DC23), greater invisibility, ball lightning (DC25), charm monster (DC23), scrying (DC23), dimensional anchor

3rd (7/day)—dispel magic, displacement, haste, tongues, magic circle versus good/evil

2nd (8/day)—detect thoughts, see invisibility, resist energy, invisibility, frostfall (DC23), command undead (DC21), glitterdust (DC21)

1st (8/day)—alarm, infernal healing, magic missile, shield, true strike, protection from (all)

0 (at will)—arcane mark, bleed, light, magehand, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation, read magic

Indendius maintains a Contingency spell on himself at all times. If he is ever rendered incapable of acting it casts teleport on him. He generally retreats to his Prismatic Sphere. He casts Mind Blank on himself every day. He has Planar Bound a Planetar and compelled it to remain in his sanctum inside the Prismatic Sphere to heal or otherwise aid him if he requires it. It has multiple Heal, Restore and Remove spells memorised. He has similarly bound half a dozen Erinyes which make their homes on the crags of the upper reaches of the cavern. They have become accustomed to the smoke and can see through it (they are immune to the heat issues). Their primary job is to warn of intruders using their constant True Seeing. He carries 15,000gp of diamonds to use to cast Limited Wish. The entrance to the cavern is warded with a simple Alarm spell.

STATISTICS

Str 49, Dex 12, Con 35, Int 22, Wis 29, Cha 28
Base Atk +29; CMB +56; CMD 72 (76 vs. trip)

Feats: Noble Scion of War, Widen Spell, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Flyby Attack, Persistent Spell, Dazing Spell, Spell Perfection (chain lightning), Spell Focus (evocation), Greater Spell Focus (evocation), Expanded Arcanax4 (1x9th, 3x8th, 1x7th, 2x6th)

Skills: Appraise +40, Bluff +43, Diplomacy +43, Fly +16, Intimidate +43, Knowledge (arcana) +40, Knowledge (history) +40, Perception +52, Sense Motive +47, Spellcraft +40, Stealth +16, Use Magic Device +43

Languages: Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Giant, Ignan, Orc

Equipment: +6 headband of mental prowess (+6 wis/cha), +6 belt of perfection, +8 bracers of armour, +5 ring of protection, ring of freedom of movement, +5 cloak of resistance, eyes of the eagle, ioun stones (dark blue rhomboid, dusty rose prism, cracked dusty rose prism, orange prism, pale green prism), jingasa of the fortunate soldier, rod of absorption, staff of the master necromancer, stone of good luck, pages of spell knowledge (protection from good, evil, law, chaos, command undead, gitterdust, magic circle versus good/evil, scrying, dimensional anchor)

Inside the permanent Prismatic Sphere he conceals the following:

Scrolls: Remove Disease, Remove Curse, Neutralise Poison, Heal (x4), Resoration (x2), Greater Restoration (x2), Break Enchantment (x2), Cleanse (x2), Remove Sickness (x2), Greater Dispel Magic (CL20, x2), Gate, Wish, SMIX (x2), Greater Spell Immunity, True Seeing (x2), Death Ward (x2), Invisibility Purge (x2),

SPECIAL ABILITIES

Fire Aura (Su)

An adult red dragon is surrounded by an aura of intense heat. All creatures within 5 feet take 1d6 points of fire damage at the beginning of the dragon's turn. An old dragon's aura extends to 10 feet. An ancient dragon's damage increases to 2d6.

Incinerate (Su)

A great wyrm red dragon can incinerate creatures in its fiery breath. A creature reduced to fewer than 0 hit points by its breath weapon must make a Fortitude save (using the breath weapon's DC). Failure indicates that the creature is reduced to ash. Creatures destroyed in this way can only be restored to life through true resurrection or similar magic.

Manipulate Flames (Su)

An old or older red dragon can control any fire spell within 10 feet per age category of the dragon as a standard action. This ability allows it to move any fire effect in the area, as if it were the caster. This ability also allows it to reposition a stationary fire effect, although the new placement must be one allowed by the spell. Finally, for 1 round following the use of this ability, the dragon can control any new fire spell cast within its area of control, as if it were the caster. It can make all decisions allowed to the caster, including cancelling the spell if it so desires.

Melt Stone (Su)

An ancient or older red dragon can use its breath weapon to melt rock at a range of 100 feet, affecting a 5-foot-radius area per age category. The area becomes lava to a depth of 1 foot. Any creature in contact with the lava takes 20d6 points of fire damage on the first round, 10d6 on the second, and none thereafter as the lava hardens and cools. If used on a wall or ceiling, treat this ability as an avalanche that deals fire damage.

Smoke Vision (Ex)

A very young red dragon can see perfectly in smoky conditions (such as those created by pyrotechnics).

So, we start off by assuming you know where the dragon lairs however entrance to his chamber by teleportation is blocked and information about him cannot be obtained by divinations spells. I assume you have dealt with or avoided any traps or guardians on the way and are fresh to confront him. If he has any reason to suspect combat may be imminent then he casts the following spells, in this order: Greater Heroism, See Invisibility, Resist Energy (cold), Spell Turning, Shapechange, Shield, Mirror Image, Displacement, Haste, Resist Energy (rest). He is not averse to quickening some if needed or even casting Time Stop to get a number of them up and running as early as possible. He does not spend time buffing if confronted by a serious immediate threat but will try and get some up with quicken spell. He is not above retreating to heal and/or buff, generally to his Prismatic Sphere. He assumes anyone willing and able to confront him in his sanctum is dangerous. He normally avoids the use of anti-magic field as it cannot completely protect him given its size. He can Widen it if necessary but also avoids this unless it is obviously needed due to the impact on his other stats.

So, what is the lowest level at which you can defeat him on your own.


voideternal wrote:

I'm not very creative, but let me think about this a little bit...

All magic SR-dependent offense can get negated by the dragon's Antimagic Field.

Actually it cannot. It is too big to fit itself inside AMF. It can cast it and set it in such a way to bring its target within it and then tear them a new one with all their protections down.


andreww wrote:
It is too big to fit itself inside AMF.

With different feats / Rods, couldn't the Dragon do a metamagic Widened Antimagic Field?


A Rod of Widen or having the feat would do it but it is very expensive.

Grand Lodge

That has to be higher then a CR 23.


Incendius uses the basic great wyrm red dragon template and has PC equivalent wealth which is +1CR. He has the same number of feats and spells that the great wyrm has but has made use of some of his spells.

Grand Lodge

Add the help from all the bound planer creatures. Add the difficulty of the Lair as well. I would put it a 24 pushing 25.

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