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Hi all
So Improvised weapons. A little background: my plan was to make a wrestler (WWE style) to go crazy in the Pathfinder world (he's just got kicked out of The Guard) and really wants to (potentially) use opponents or corpses as weapons inbetween his unarmed fighting (I am thinking Barbarian Brutal Pugilist and Monk Martial Artist).
***EDIT: I should also add, I'm after this for Pathfinder Society***
So:
1) Can you use a weapon (eg a greatsword) as an improvised weapon?
RAW I would say yes. It would be a "quarterstaff" (I guess) and do D6 bludgeoning damage.
So I'd say - yes.
2) Can you get MW Improvised weapons?
RAW - A masterwork item, is a great item, but not fighting (except in certain circumstances... maybe?) so I'd say no. Unless you pay extra. But even then it gets confusing, a MW weapon is designed for fighting, so if an improvised weapon is made to act as good weapon... it would BE a weapon, not an improvised weapon... And even a MW weapon being used as improvised, you're not using it properly so to me, wouldn't get the MW quality.
So I'd say - no.
3) Magic improvised weapons?
This makes more sense than masterwork (which partly confuses it if you can't really have MW improvised) but we're in a magical world. Why not? And a magical weapon being used AS a magical improved weapon, is still magical.
So I'd say - yes.
4) So can you use creatures?
RAW - doesn't say you can't, but also doesn't go into rules - ideally you'd need to grapple them first, to use them as a weapon (and then it's not a grapple 'action'). The fact they have this ability: "Body Bludgeon (Ex)" suggests it's for 'barbarians only'.
- Maybe there is an option if you were to use the -20 to grapple to grapple an opponent, but not be grappled yourself. I may allow this, but at -20 it's barely going to ever happen!
So I'd say - no idea? Yes at -20? Or you need to be a barbarian with that ability.
5)If not alive, how about a corpse/unconscious?
Not really anything saying you can't. Though as weapons go, I would guess the weight is so much more than weapons, bodies would count as a number of sizes more than the body. Eg a small body counts as a large or huge weapon? Maybe?
So I'd say - yes - but how to work it?
6)How would the Lesser Hurling rage power work with these?
I read this as throwing unconscious/non living people.
Hurling, Lesser (Ex)
Benefit: As a full-round action while raging, the barbarian can lift and hurl an object up to one size category smaller than herself with both hands or two size categories smaller with one hand as an improvised weapon with a range increment of 10 feet. This inflicts damage as a falling object plus the barbarian’s Strength bonus. This damage is halved if the object is not made of stone, metal, or similar material. This is a ranged touch attack, and the target may attempt a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the barbarian’s level + the barbarian’s Strength modifier) for half damage. The barbarian may apply Power Attack to this attack as a one- or two-handed weapon, as appropriate.
Anyone know any links to official rulings on any of this? I checked out a few threads and had a few answers and ideas, but seem to want to get into more.
For 3 I don't think th magic component of a magic weapon UAS any bearing. Gming I'd let it bypass dr/magic though.
4 barbarians have a rage power for this
5 I think yes but no ida.
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This is a can of worms...
*pop*
1) Can you use a weapon (eg a greatsword) as an improvised weapon?
RAW I would say yes. It would be a "quarterstaff" (I guess) and do D6 bludgeoning damage.
So I'd say - yes.
Generally any improvised weapon should come fairly close to a club of one size or another. In the end, it is up to the GM what stats you use for that, and you still take the non-proficiency penalty as I understand it.
2) Can you get MW Improvised weapons?
RAW - A masterwork item, is a great item, but not fighting (except in certain circumstances... maybe?) so I'd say no. Unless you pay extra. But even then it gets confusing, a MW weapon is designed for fighting, so if an improvised weapon is made to act as good weapon... it would BE a weapon, not an improvised weapon... And even a MW weapon being used as improvised, you're not using it properly so to me, wouldn't get the MW quality.
So I'd say - no.
You are correct. A Masterwork Teapot serves great tea and still is rubbish at stopping mace swings.
3) Magic improvised weapons?
This makes more sense than masterwork (which partly confuses it if you can't really have MW improvised) but we're in a magical world. Why not? And a magical weapon being used AS a magical improved weapon, is still magical.
So I'd say - yes.
What are you really asking? Can you wield a +3 Teapot? No. Would the inherent modifiers to a weapon you can't use affect opponents? Table by table you'll get different answers on this. I wouldn't make any portion of this part of your every battle strategy.
4) So can you use creatures?
RAW - doesn't say you can't, but also doesn't go into rules - ideally you'd need to grapple them first, to use them as a weapon (and then it's not a grapple 'action'). The fact they have this ability: "Body Bludgeon (Ex)" suggests it's for 'barbarians only'.
- Maybe there is an option if you were to use the -20 to grapple to grapple an opponent, but not be grappled yourself. I may allow this, but at -20 it's barely going to ever happen!
So I'd say - no idea? Yes at -20? Or you need to be a barbarian with that ability.
You can Throw and Drag opponents and Bull Rush them into each other all day long. Those are great ways to use an opponent as a weapon. If you want to pick them up and swing them like a club, then you need something to give you permission to do that. Otherwise no. If you want to drag the game to a halt while the GM calculates the NPC's weight plus gear and circumstance vs your current carry capacity every time you start making grapple checks...well that's not going to make you any friends at the table. Also, nothing in the Grappling rules allows you to do that. The options you get are very specific, associated with very specific conditions that carry penalties and restrictions.
5)If not alive, how about a corpse/unconscious?
Not really anything saying you can't. Though as weapons go, I would guess the weight is so much more than weapons, bodies would count as a number of sizes more than the body. Eg a small body counts as a large or huge weapon? Maybe?
So I'd say - yes - but how to work it?
Consider that the corpse is too unwieldy to make even an improvised weapon when intact. A leg, an arm, the torso, any piece is fine and relatable, but the whole body is just not functional.
6)How would the Lesser Hurling rage power work with these?
I read this as throwing unconscious/non living people.
Hurling, Lesser (Ex)
Benefit: As a full-round action while raging, the barbarian can lift and hurl an object up to one size category smaller than herself with both hands or two size categories smaller with one hand as an improvised weapon with a range increment of 10 feet. This inflicts damage as a falling object plus the barbarian’s Strength bonus. This damage is halved if the object is not made of stone, metal, or similar material. This is a ranged touch attack, and the target may attempt a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the barbarian’s level + the barbarian’s Strength modifier) for half damage. The barbarian may apply Power Attack to this attack as a one- or two-handed weapon, as appropriate.
What's vague about that?
For 6) I guess it was "what is an object"
I would class a body (unconscious or dead) to fit, but not a person (and then we're onto grapples)
Thanks for the replies. And the idea I may need to chop off limbs to use :)
(and yes, I forgot about great club - that works!)