Brawler, Monk, Fighter face-off


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Ok, so we hear a lot about how Brawlers kind of fall somewhere between Monks and fighters in combat strength. So I decided to ask you all (since I suck at monks... and fighters that are not 2 handers or dual wielders... or S&B fighters), what do you think? Where do each fall (In relation to each other)?

And, would be best, if builds can be posted to compare if this idea is actually true or distorted by the Fighter/Monk distortion field.


The real problem with the Brawler is that it's supposed to be a mix of fighter and monk but it's not really better than a fighter/monk multiclass, simply because unarmed fighter, two-weapon warrior or Brawler(Fighter Archetype) with a dip in master of many styles is freaking awesome.

Edit: I plan on getting in on this with builds and discussion but it's pretty late so probably tomorrow.


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Brawler > Straight Monk.

Brawler Fighter = Brawler.

Brawler Fighter with a dip in MoMS > Brawler.

Mechanically the Brawler is a solid beatstick. They're just boring and bring nothing new to the table.


Oh good we both showed up.


One thing I would suggest for the builds, show what each is capable of both with, and without magic and gear. It's worth noting which build is powerful because of item mixing, and which is powerful because of the build.


THis one doesn't really rely on gear beyond the obvious (an AoMF and some armor), though he has some pretty nice gear as well (was playing in a game where the Big 4 Wondrous Items were replaced by a scaling boost to teh attributes).


Well there is one class related item difference that must be noted. The Brawler and the fighter can use the Brawling Enchantment. The monk cannot without losing a lot of features.

Shadow Lodge

I personally say that the Brawler is a little better than the fighter overall because while he lacks a couple of free feats, doesn't have the +6[with gloves of dueling] attack/damage, and the Heavy Armour+Shield for free thing, he makes up for that with a little bit of in-combat flexibility with MM, letting them get things like Maneuver feats or situational Styles on the fly, and they actually have some out-of-combat potential [as opposed to the fighter with his 2 skills/level]. I liked the ACG revision version, and hope to see the final version have a lot more actual class features[beyond just flat-bonuses].


Martial Maneuvers would be wonderful... If you could use it a little more often.


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Do you just really enjoy making hot button issue threads?


It's fun for everyone involved so why shouldn't he?


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Wait, is the Brawler a hot-button issue? Or were you talking about the Monk/Fighter bit?


ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
I personally say that the Brawler is a little better than the fighter overall because while he lacks a couple of free feats, doesn't have the +6[with gloves of dueling] attack/damage, and the Heavy Armour+Shield for free thing, he makes up for that with a little bit of in-combat flexibility with MM, letting them get things like Maneuver feats or situational Styles on the fly, and they actually have some out-of-combat potential [as opposed to the fighter with his 2 skills/level]. I liked the ACG revision version, and hope to see the final version have a lot more actual class features[beyond just flat-bonuses].

Overall I'd say he's on par for a few reasons.

Mainly: Far less damage capable, but more flexible and contributes more out of combat.

I find Brawler to be a disappointment because he's quite boring and uninspired, not because he's mechanically terrible.


So. What should the Brawler's flavor be? Tavern brawler with improvised weapons and the like? I'd almost thing that's better for a rouge/Fighter mix. You know. A combo of Thug and Cad? Or something else? Any ideas?


The Brawler class has the ability to "STR Ranger" it only makes up for what he would lose in weapon training, twin blades, or close combatant. The extra damage dice and the martial maneuvers don't help much to outbalance that. Martial maneuvers is nice but you still have to meet some annoying prerequisites and you can't use it much.

Meanwhile weapon training applies to most combat maneuvers you would make so Martial Training isn't special in the slightest.

I'm with Rynjin in that I think Brawler's strike is entirely flavorless.

I think it should be more of a "You're so experienced in fighting in close quarters that you've learned to 'Punch holes' in your enemies defenses." So you get the Penetrating strike abilities instead of Ki Strike. Which would be wonderful because it could apply to all of his Close Weapons instead of just unarmed strikes.

Edit: It also makes more sense than him randomly being being able to channel his alignment into his punch when there doesn't seem to be any mysticism or the like in this class.


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Tavern Brawler as one aspect of it, yes (I was pushing for a while there for them to have Catch-Off Guard as a Bonus Feat at 1st level).

But more of a general no frills fighter.

Like, the Fighter is the guy who's dedicated his life to the pursuit of martial prowess. He trains every day to hone his skills to the limit.

The Brawler is not that. He fights because he LOVES it.

He should be your bare knuckle fighter who'll do anything it takes to win.

Including capitalizing on that "bare knuckle fighter" stereotype by slipping on a pair of The Weapon That Must Not Be Named and smashing someone's face in with it.

A subtle difference, but a clear one.

And his mechanics should reflect that. He's the combat savant. The guy who's never had any formal training but he can take down soldiers because he's just that much of a badass.

Basically, if you've watched Samurai Champloo, Jin is a Fighter.

Mugen is a straight up Brawler.

So, Martial Maneuvers? GREAT.

Build the entire class around that s~&@.

Drop Flurry as the default, keep the Unarmed Strike damage (applying it to "Brawler Weapons" as well) the armor bonus (I like the idea of the Brawler just having a sixth sense almost for when someone's about to clobber him).

Increase uses of Martial Maneuvers/let him grab more Feats with a single usage at higher levels (so when it downgrades to a lesser action, he can instead grab, say, 3 Feats as a Move for one use, 2 Feats as a Swift for 2 uses, or 3 Feats as a Free for 3 uses, while still keeping it 1:1 for a Free action if you so choose. Basically if he's willing to take the time he can get a bunch out of it, but if he's in a hurry he can "nova" his uses).

Now, give the Brawler a choice of other core features. Somewhat like Wepaon Training or Combat Style makes you specialize, so will the Brawler here. Once chosen this cannot be changed (though perhaps at high levels Martial Maneuvers allows for a temporary change?).

You can choose Flurry if you want to be the wild fighter who lashes out with a flurry of fists.

Fuse Styles if you want to be the skilled brawler, trained in formal combat styles but not beholden to the discipline others find necessary to master them.

The scaling bonus to maneuvers and free Feats for the guy who want to lock people down and fight dirty instead of straight bare knuckle brawling.

Hell, add in a 4th one for the archetype I haven't thought of yet. Something that makes improvised weapons as powerful as real ones, so you can have the guy who smashes monsters with a frying pan, beer stein, or table leg, something like that.

Customization being the name of the game, rather than Brawler having the worst of both worlds form Monk and Fighter...the Fighter's overspecialization in combat, and the Monk's schizophrenic amalgam of abilities that don't work well together.

Shadow Lodge

brawler is very boring. lets talk about the warpriest blood rager, or slayer... wait slayer is pretty boring also...

just me or are the majority of the classes coming out just boring as all hell?


Rynjin wrote:

Tavern Brawler as one aspect of it, yes (I was pushing for a while there for them to have Catch-Off Guard as a Bonus Feat at 1st level).

But more of a general no frills fighter.

Like, the Fighter is the guy who's dedicated his life to the pursuit of martial prowess. He trains every day to hone his skills to the limit.

The Brawler is not that. He fights because he LOVES it.

He should be your bare knuckle fighter who'll do anything it takes to win.

Including capitalizing on that "bare knuckle fighter" stereotype by slipping on a pair of The Weapon That Must Not Be Named and smashing someone's face in with it.

A subtle difference, but a clear one.

And his mechanics should reflect that. He's the combat savant. The guy who's never had any formal training but he can take down soldiers because he's just that much of a badass.

Basically, if you've watched Samurai Champloo, Jin is a Fighter.

Mugen is a straight up Brawler.

So, Martial Maneuvers? GREAT.

Build the entire class around that s!@#.

Drop Flurry as the default, keep the Unarmed Strike damage (applying it to "Brawler Weapons" as well) the armor bonus (I like the idea of the Brawler just having a sixth sense almost for when someone's about to clobber him).

Increase uses of Martial Maneuvers/let him grab more Feats with a single usage at higher levels (so when it downgrades to a lesser action, he can instead grab, say, 3 Feats as a Move for one use, 2 Feats as a Swift for 2 uses, or 3 Feats as a Free for 3 uses, while still keeping it 1:1 for a Free action if you so choose. Basically if he's willing to take the time he can get a bunch out of it, but if he's in a hurry he can "nova" his uses).

Now, give the Brawler a choice of other core features. Somewhat like Wepaon Training or Combat Style makes you specialize, so will the Brawler here. Once chosen this cannot be changed (though perhaps at high levels Martial Maneuvers allows for a temporary change?).

You can choose Flurry if you want to be the wild fighter who...

I like it. +1 For mentioning Samurai Champloo.


Hmmm... While we're on the subject of animes and the like. How about a Yusuke or Luffy character. Kind of stupid but fight purely on instinct and the more they fight the better they get. Say the longer he fights an enemy the better bonuses he gets or something of the like.


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Personally, I envision the Brawler as both Kenichi from Historys Strongest Disciple: Kenici and Berserker from the same series.

Kenichi is someone who is able to completely change his fighting style on the fly to counter the opponent he's facing: see here.

Berserker is someone who has never been trained in martial arts and gets by on his raw natural talent. He's even explicitly called out as being a street brawler. However, he eventually gets beaten by someone who has a surplus of natural talent, and excellent training (fighter that dips MoMS).

In the above, Kenichi would be a more intelligent Brawler, the guy who takes things like Power Attack and Combat Expertise so he has a wide variety of maneuvers open to him, while Berserker would be someone who focuses on taking brutal options, like Furious Focus, Lunge, or Catch Off Guard so he can surprise his opponents.

The Brawler, I think, should be a class that has enormous combat versatility, so you could have multiple brawlers at a table without each one being a clone of the other.

And now that I've brought Kenichi up, I think it's time for me to watch the anime for like the 9th time. I swear, every time I talk about the Brawler, I end up watching Kenichi. I may hate the class because of how much it stole from the Monk, but I got to love the fact it gives me an excuse to watch the show again.


TheSideKick wrote:

brawler is very boring. lets talk about the warpriest blood rager, or slayer... wait slayer is pretty boring also...

just me or are the majority of the classes coming out just boring as all hell?

Well, that's just because you aren't analyzing them thoroughly enough. You see:

The Brawler punches stuff. not to be confused with the archetype of the same name, or the other more Asian class that punches stuff.

The hunter is a cheaper-less powerful druid

the Slayer is 1/2 of all rogues

the Investigator is the other half

see? all fill their own niche.

EDIT: As a fan, I third Kenichi as an example of what the class should go for.


Kenichi is a yes.


And as for the Mugen thing. That would be a good way to give him AC bonuses. It was mentioned in the show that Mugen uses erratic movements to throw his opponents off. That could be a good way to flavor his AC bonus. Or maybe give him the ability to take extra five foot steps for doing certain things. Succeeding combat maneuvers critical hits or some other stuff.


Mr 2 Bon Clay all day! Oh come my way karate...


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Okama Kenpo!


Tels wrote:

Personally, I envision the Brawler as both Kenichi from Historys Strongest Disciple: Kenici and Berserker from the same series.

Kenichi is someone who is able to completely change his fighting style on the fly to counter the opponent he's facing: see here.

Berserker is someone who has never been trained in martial arts and gets by on his raw natural talent. He's even explicitly called out as being a street brawler. However, he eventually gets beaten by someone who has a surplus of natural talent, and excellent training (fighter that dips MoMS).

In the above, Kenichi would be a more intelligent Brawler, the guy who takes things like Power Attack and Combat Expertise so he has a wide variety of maneuvers open to him, while Berserker would be someone who focuses on taking brutal options, like Furious Focus, Lunge, or Catch Off Guard so he can surprise his opponents.

The Brawler, I think, should be a class that has enormous combat versatility, so you could have multiple brawlers at a table without each one being a clone of the other.

And now that I've brought Kenichi up, I think it's time for me to watch the anime for like the 9th time. I swear, every time I talk about the Brawler, I end up watching Kenichi. I may hate the class because of how much it stole from the Monk, but I got to love the fact it gives me an excuse to watch the show again.

I always use that fight as an example when someone asks me what I envision someone who swaps between Style Feats is doing.

Though I wouldn't say Kenichi is a "smart" Brawler...he's not too bright, really. =p


From what I've seen of the Brawler by way of the testing pdf, if I were to choose a class or mixture of classes to reach the goal of "Punch things in the face as hard as possible" I'd still do a MOMS / Brawler Fighter over the Brawler at this point. (Mainly because I can snatch Dragon Style uber quick then jump into fighter).

That being said, while the Brawler is versatile due to his ability, I sort of wish it had more impressive features, for me at least. Knockout punch thing is kind of fun, and the versatile ability is nice, otherwise I wasn't all that interested.

P.s. Love Kenichi, haven't seen Berserker yet.


I dunno, Kenichi is pretty clever. He's able to invent new moves on the fly, like figuring out the secret to Sigfried's fighting style, or figuring out how to counter Ryuto's Seikuken. In the Manga, there are more examples, like when he has to fight a girl and uses grapples to overpower her, or other things.

He's not the smartest person, that's true, but he's fairly intelligent and clever in his own way. Especially when compared to someone like Berserker.


Anime is filled with the idiot that has extreme battle prowess.


I came because i heard there was kenichi talk here...there's probably a better way to phrase that, oh look a thread on brawlers, the sorcerer to the fighter's wizard. I for one, hope for some archetypes that branch out into different weapon focuses instead of just close. Its not abig deal with MM in the picture, but still.


TheSideKick wrote:

brawler is very boring. lets talk about the warpriest blood rager, or slayer... wait slayer is pretty boring also...

just me or are the majority of the classes coming out just boring as all hell?

That's just you. Shaman looks tasty, I hope they fix issues. Arcanist is looking extremely good. Bloodrager has too little casting for my taste, but Warpriest will be taking Fighter's lunch money in the future. Skald is a hot mess and Investigator is nerfed because Rogue players whine a lot.

Liberty's Edge

Pupsocket wrote:
That's just you. Shaman looks tasty, I hope they fix issues. Arcanist is looking extremely good. Bloodrager has too little casting for my taste, but Warpriest will be taking Fighter's lunch money in the future. Skald is a hot mess and Investigator is nerfed because Rogue players whine a lot.

Investigator is getting fixed, also, Skald isn't that bad.


Warpriest will probably take Inquisitor, Fighter, Monk and Brawler's lunch money in the future.

Liberty's Edge

Tels wrote:
Warpriest will probably take Inquisitor, Fighter, Monk and Brawler's lunch money in the future.

Nah. Inquisitor has skills, Judgments, Bane, and a specialized spell list. It's probably the third best skill class in the game and still a solid combatant. It'll stay.

It's a bit early to speculate on Brawler, and Monk is so different in both flavor and mechanics that I'm not sure if eclipsing it would work (ie: Warpriest may be better, but doesn't actually do what Monk does at all aside from unarmed damage).

Fighter's been having it's lunch money taken by every other full-BAB class for quite a while now...

Shadow Lodge

I don't see Warpriest ever taking Inquisitor's lunch money. Inquisitors have tons of skills that are more helpful than the Warpriest's 2, has less MAD and a fair bit of Wisdom synergy, big skill bonuses, a specialized spell list made to give appropriate spells at appropriate levels, Judgements to give attack and damage bonuses, and Bane.

Fighter core has no lunch money in the first place. He has to go to the wizard and beg on his knees in the cafeteria for him to share. Because Ranger took it before the CRB was published.


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Fighter doesn't have lunch money. He had to bring a lunch from home. Fighter doesn't need your stupid lunch money. Has lunchables and juice box.

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