Goblin Squad Member
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Merchants and gatherers don't band together because they are too F'ng greedy and don't want to feel obligated to split their profits.
I am amazed to learn that Bluddwolf is the authority on why crafters and merchants do as they do. I am simply amazed. Astonished. It is incredible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hey astonished one, he has done plenty of gathering and etc in other games... I would say it is experience talking.
I have also seen this in plenty of games. SWTOR, STO, and EVE, in all of them it is rare to see a gathering group. The mass majority of gatherers are solo. As for Merchants, thats just Eve with anything that counts... and there are tons of solo Freighters cruising around.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One game where I saw incentives to group gathering was A Tale in the Desert. In the early game, players didn't have the stamina to dig large rocks, so they were forced to group by the game design. Being married and harvesting some crops close to your spouse gave a boost to harvest, by game design. And quarrying marble and such stone required 4 people, by game design.
If developers don't put incentives to group harvesting in the game design... Surprise, surprise, players won't do it. There is an opportunity cost in gathering a group, and the incentives/value of grouping have to overcome that cost.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One game where I saw incentives to group gathering was A Tale in the Desert. In the early game, players didn't have the stamina to dig large rocks, so they were forced to group by the game design. Being married and harvesting some crops close to your spouse gave a boost to harvest, by game design. And quarrying marble and such stone required 4 people, by game design.
If developers don't put incentives to group harvesting in the game design... Surprise, surprise, players won't do it. There is an opportunity cost in gathering a group, and the incentives/value of grouping have to overcome that cost.
That is not a bad angle on "incentive". It is too bad that it hasn't just become natural in other MMO's. I suppose that it will still only happen in PfO (as general practice) if it becomes almost impossible to "bank" without grouping for protection.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bringslight - we already know of one incentive GW is giving harvesters: lode/gushers. Which is one more than most games.
I think that strongly encouraging players to join settlements (due to skill training and mutual defense in a crowded world), resource hex depletion, and settlement requirements for resources will all work to encourage large-scale gathering. We've been 'promised' meaningful PvP, but we might see meaningful harvesting as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Merchants and gatherers don't band together because they are too F'ng greedy and don't want to feel obligated to split their profits.I am amazed to learn that Bluddwolf is the authority on why crafters and merchants do as they do. I am simply amazed. Astonished. It is incredible.
You shouldn't be amazed, I have an amazing amount of MMO experience. I have been in all kinds of groups, and most participated in every aspect of the game. I know a great deal of what motivates various play styles, I have played them all.
Just today, less than an hour ago, once again a pilot forgot the mantra of EvE. You are never safe! He parked his Tech 3 Proteus at a POS in what he thought was "safe" 0.0 space. He then must have gone AFK, thinking that the POS guns + his tank would protect him. A nearly 350 million isk mistake!
Now, I'm not claiming this is some brilliant military victory, it wasn't. What it was was the lack of care some take even though they know what the risks are.
I fully expect the same types of behaviors to be demonstrated by some in PFO.
I hope for that pilot's sake he has learned a valuable lesson.
You are not safe
Don't fly what you can't afford to lose
It is nothing but isk (or it's all about isk).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I fully expect the same types of behaviors to be demonstrated by some in PFO.
Me too. Even from myself if there is no alternative or for a thrill. I expect to be nabbed more often than not doing such, though. I will be pleasantly surprised if that proves wrong...
Edit: Can we get some full, bright yellow gathering suits please?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bringslight - we already know of one incentive GW is giving harvesters: lode/gushers. Which is one more than most games.
I think that strongly encouraging players to join settlements (due to skill training and mutual defense in a crowded world), resource hex depletion, and settlement requirements for resources will all work to encourage large-scale gathering. We've been 'promised' meaningful PvP, but we might see meaningful harvesting as well.
I am sooo hoping that you are "spot on" there. Also hoping that WE, going into this game first, will be of some influence (with the mechanical incentives) in encouraging our merchant, gatherer and any non "victim hunter" friends to approach the game differently than the past. Maybe that will be more enjoyable than the paranoid "solo" lottery of the past.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just today, less than an hour ago, once again a pilot forgot the mantra of EvE. You are never safe! He parked his Tech 3 Proteus at a POS in what he thought was "safe" 0.0 space. He then must have gone AFK, thinking that the POS guns + his tank would protect him. A nearly 350 million isk mistake!
...
I hope for that pilot's sake he has learned a valuable lesson.
Out of curiosity, what did you get out of this interaction?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Out of curiosity, what did you get out of this interaction?Just today, less than an hour ago, once again a pilot forgot the mantra of EvE. You are never safe! He parked his Tech 3 Proteus at a POS in what he thought was "safe" 0.0 space. He then must have gone AFK, thinking that the POS guns + his tank would protect him. A nearly 350 million isk mistake!
...
I hope for that pilot's sake he has learned a valuable lesson.
I can only assume he enjoyed the sublime joy of another's grief.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Out of curiosity, what did you get out of this interaction?Just today, less than an hour ago, once again a pilot forgot the mantra of EvE. You are never safe! He parked his Tech 3 Proteus at a POS in what he thought was "safe" 0.0 space. He then must have gone AFK, thinking that the POS guns + his tank would protect him. A nearly 350 million isk mistake!
...
I hope for that pilot's sake he has learned a valuable lesson.
About 10 million isk in loot (my share for landing final blow); the experience of doing cyno-jumps (I've never actually done them before); learning to fly a new ship and use new tactics; learning to fly with a new group of friends (my new corp), and gaining their trust; Producing a more positive PvP record ( isk destroyed vs isk lost is now 3:1 in my favor) and finally... The thrill of the hunt!
I have also gained interest in having my newer, low sec, pirate toon set a training plan that will put him in the same ship and at the same ability in about 10 days.
This is the thing about PvP vs. PvE, there is so much more to be learned, put at risk and gained by it.
What I had at risk, about 50 million isk if my ship was lost and about 16 million to replace my clone if i got pod killed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I am going "all in" in the belief that there will be something that makes the game fun even if PVP is not high on your list. Much of getting enjoyment from a heavy PVP game is from those things:
1. run only with what you can afford to lose,
2. death is a minor inconvenience if you let it be (not a big deal),
3. if you find yourself getting ganked often, look at what YOU could be doing differently,
4. play with friends that are good at PVP and add value to their play with your skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can only assume he enjoyed the sublime joy of another's grief.
I would take it over the sublime joy of chipping at rocks for hours on end. This attack took place in 0.0 space the FFA zone in EvE. He should have known better.
If I had walked away from my ship, to return to nothing, I would chalk it up to my own stupidity and learn a valuable lesson.
I was not able to stay for the next two kills, had to drop the kids off. What I chose to do was to warp out, alone, and dodge 3 gate camps that were forming up to retaliate for our kills. Once I was back in safe space for me ( I had to cut across 12 jumps of enemy territory), that is when I finally docked up and logged off.
Never safe in space.
Edit: as for how that pilot felt, I'm sure pretty stupid. Do I feel sorry for him, not really. It's a game, he lost. Don't like losing, don't play games you can lose.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well I am going "all in" in the belief that there will be something that makes the game fun even if PVP is not high on your list. Much of getting enjoyment from a heavy PVP game is from those things:
1. run only with what you can afford to lose,
2. death is a minor inconvenience if you let it be (not a big deal),
3. if you find yourself getting ganked often, look at what YOU could be doing differently,
4. play with friends that are good at PVP and add value to their play with your skills.
QFT!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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These can be interpreted as bing the same.Never safe in space."Often at risk" in PFO.They can also be interpreted as being different.
I am not pushing a specific interpretation.
Yes that is equally true.
I also caught my typo... *being, not bing or Being...
Also, I hope I answered your question above adequately.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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These can be interpreted as bing the same.Never safe in space."Often at risk" in PFO.They can also be interpreted as being different.
I am not pushing a specific interpretation.
Yes that is equally true.
I also caught my typo... *being, not bing or Being...
Also, I hope I answered your question above adequately.
It depends on what your interpretation of "interpretation" is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think there's a world of difference between them, even if others see it as only a minor thing. I don't think they're "the same" at all.These can be interpreted as being the same.Never safe in space."Often at risk" in PFO.
Players like ourselves will never be safe. We both have targets put on our backs, largely our own doing, but also the positions we hold make us targets.
Will some "no named" schlub, crafter, that never leaves his or her settlement or the NPC settlement, be almost totally safe? Sure, because that character has not made a name for him/herself.
If that same crafter rises to the heights of crafting and is the only crafter for tier 3 longswords, and there are local tier 2 crafters envious of him/her... Then he is never safe.
Leaders, no matter in what form, will always be targets. People that are "doers", "shakers and movers" will never be safe.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... The thrill of the hunt!Oh really? I don't think hunting an AFK target in 0.0 would be terribly thrilling. :P Though I suppose if there's nice explosion animations when their ship breaks that could be enjoyable.
Hehe. I was thinking: "AFK targets are not very challenging" myself. I was trying to be nicer though. Also when you think about it, it probably reads BONUS! to roll across a big juicy AFK every so often if you are into hunting players in general...
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Goblin Squad Member
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When you are hungry and someone offers you a free meal, you eat it. The thrill of the hunt is scanning down and then attacking targets. Luck is finding one so foolishly AFK.
Knowledge (on the part of our Field Commander) was coming up with the strategy to enter a hostile POS and pick off a target. Skill was timing our warp in, un cloaking and alpha strike and then warping out before the POS guns had a chance to lock on and tear any if our ships apart.
Earlier on I stated it was no military victory, but perhaps it was when I think further on it. So many things could have gone wrong and did not. All 9 of us did exactly what we were supposed to do in a coordinated and successful effort.
* Another significant point / 9 pilots from 6 different (I used my alt) corporations came together for this venture. This is the kind of collaborative efforts I hope to bring to banditry in PFO.
The UnNamed Company will draw upon the masses of the willing, to participate in the life of banditry (or piracy).
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Goblin Squad Member
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You shouldn't be amazed, I have an amazing amount of MMO experience. I have been in all kinds of groups, and most participated in every aspect of the game. I know a great deal of what motivates various play styles, I have played them all.Merchants and gatherers don't band together because they are too F'ng greedy and don't want to feel obligated to split their profits.I am amazed to learn that Bluddwolf is the authority on why crafters and merchants do as they do. I am simply amazed. Astonished. It is incredible.
Many here have at least equal experience in MMOs, enough experience to not be impressed with your claims of authority, especially where you project your own motivations on players who aren't at all like you, who have different play styles from you, and yet you think that you have an accurate grasp of their psychology.
Hubris, thy name is Bluddwolf.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... The thrill of the hunt!Oh really? I don't think hunting an AFK target in 0.0 would be terribly thrilling. :P Though I suppose if there's nice explosion animations when their ship breaks that could be enjoyable.
Do you ever really know someone is AFK? Nope
If you come in and attack him, could he hot drop your fleet with a fleet of his own? YepA T3 ship sitting like he was could have been bait. Those ships can tank a small gang for a while if setup as a bait ship... and he could have brought a world of hurt on that small gang.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So many posts!
Coming back to this after a while, it looks to me like this is not a game to be played by someone looking for an experience like Skyrim (on the PvE side) or like Guild Wars (yes, there is PVP, but lots of PvE, as well). In fact, it sounds like there really isn't any point to playing unless you want to team up with a bunch of other folks.
Here's the problem with that. I might get the opportunity to play a computer game every other Saturday for a couple of hours. This doesn't really lend itself to joining a guild and being a contributing member of a community. It sounds like this game is in no way set up so that a casual player can have a good time, and is unlikely to be something I would be able to do.
Now, get out there and build me a single-player game in Golarion!
In response to some queries:
Being killed by mobs or by other players is generally the same, where it bothers me is when I step just outside of town and there are a pack of murderhobos waiting to kill me because I had the audacity to be new to the game.
Also, scaling - Sure, I expect that if I am level 4 and walk up on Smaug I am toast, but am I likely to be a target for higher-level PCs just because they are jerks and like killing newbies? That is my primary concern. There is a big difference between heading into a dark cave without proper protection when you have reason to suspect there is an ogre in there vs. idly walking down the road heading to the next town and being jumped by a pack of PCs who just happen to hang out there because that's where all the weaker PCs travel.
It sounds like you expect there to be some sort of internal governance (reputation, bounties, whatever) that keeps folks from just randomly murdering everybody they see. I am not that optimistic. Give a bunch of random anonymous folks the power to be goobers, and they will. It is human nature.
As to specific questions:
1. Do you mind dying by a mob? - no
2. Do you mind dying if the mob is actually another player but it was fair combat and fun? - no, but there is the rub. What makes it fair when I am walking along and get ganked by somebody 10 levels higher than me? This is specifically what bothers me about the idea of PvP.
I think the requirement for "fairness" would probably preclude a great many multiplayer games from your library.
The history of human warfare is replete with unfairness, because ultimately it provides a much better chance of success.
I can only imagine a single player game could deliver predictably fair matchups for you to fight on a consistent basis.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...am I likely to be a target for higher-level PCs just because they are jerks and like killing newbies?
Ryan's said the power-curve in this game won't resemble others. There'll be few, if any, one-shot kills, and you should always have a chance to run away from anything other than the best-planned attacks; you'd have to be greatly out-numbered in those cases as well.
One on one, a year-old character won't be a super-threat to a brand-new character.
I am not that optimistic.
You might re-consider and allow yourself some optimism. Control of murder-hobos is going to be a central part of the game, and there are many...*many*...mechanisms planned to safe-guard players from "improper" attack.
2. Do you mind dying if the mob is actually another player but it was fair combat and fun? - no, but there is the rub. What makes it fair when I am walking along and get ganked by somebody 10 levels higher than me? This is specifically what bothers me about the idea of PvP.
Unfortunately this does happen from time to time in my experience
You should really give a mmo a chance, it is my favorite way to play computer games. To me the $10-$15 for a month of play is extremely cost effective. The last time I took my wife to the movies for 2 hours of entertainment it cost me almost $50.00 before it was all over with it.
As far a PVP I use to not like it until I played DAOC many years ago and since then I am hooked. It is now the main thing I look for in a MMO. Just get use to getting killed and often. YOU will die in PVP. In my 14 years of MMO pvp'ing I have come across a very small percentage of $ssholes. Usually if so its a 12 year old or something like that. Most players respect their opponents. I just hope GW gets the balance right from the start.
Personally, I doubt there were be an extraordinary amount of PvP on day 1, to be honest. I don't really see the incentive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here, let me tell you why I don't like working with other crafters and gatherers.
I like to make things from scratch. I ENJOY it. It definitely isn't greed. Actually, I've been known to just give away what I make. I might keep the first, but not always especially if, as happened with the deal I made last night, the condition of getting a critical component I needed, was to give them the first batch so they could make their bow. Now I'm making a +2 Shortbow... that will even finish before Spitfire's +2 Longbow (shortbow is only 34h, and I think he said it was 45h for the Longbow, so even after having to wait another 4h to start mine I'll finish 7h sooner.)
Why don't crafters/gathers just go around in loin cloths mining their ores and what not like dwarves do toiling away in the mines working up a hot sweat from a good day's labor?
That way there's no fear of loss of anything of valuable other than a tool and whatever resources you might've collected.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why don't crafters/gathers just go around in loin cloths mining their ores and what not like dwarves do toiling away in the mines working up a hot sweat from a good day's labor?
That way there's no fear of loss of anything of valuable other than a tool and whatever resources you might've collected.
Aye, if only my dwarven hands were strong enough to tear off this damned itchy tunic! It bedevils me!