Actions in Combat


Advice


Recently had a rules disagreement with a PFS scenario GM about whether a witch could five foot step, cackle, and use a standard action. His ruling was that another move action would be 'moving twice' and therefore too powerful. I started to think a one-page cheat sheet would be useful so I made a prototype to carry to games. You can find it Here.

If there are any edits/adds please contact me here. I'd like to make it a useful product for PFS players where round economy is often paramount and takes a long time if players don't understand the actions allowed or a GM is unsure what provokes, etc.

Thanks!

R/
Zain60

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Zain60 wrote:

Recently had a rules disagreement with a PFS scenario GM about whether a witch could five foot step, cackle, and use a standard action. His ruling was that another move action would be 'moving twice' and therefore too powerful. I started to think a one-page cheat sheet would be useful so I made a prototype to carry to games. You can find it Here.

If there are any edits/adds please contact me here. I'd like to make it a useful product for PFS players where round economy is often paramount and takes a long time if players don't understand the actions allowed or a GM is unsure what provokes, etc.

Thanks!

R/
Zain60

What do you mean by "another move action"? Were you trying to use your standard action to move? Because you can't do any kind of movement while also taking a 5-foot-step. But you can combine it with other uses of the move action, such as a cackle.

Dark Archive

He means 1 move action to cackle, and another "move action" to 5ft step.


Since a 5 ft step isn't a move action, it is allowed to take a 5 ft. step, cackle and take a standard action (unless, of course, the standard action is used to move).

Liberty's Edge

When you 5 foot step you cannot proceed to MOVE, but you CAN take a MOVE ACTION, ex. Draw, Cackle, Begin Casting Full Round Spell.

5 foot simply negates the ability to then move further, it is essentially there to stop 25ft and 35ft movement or negate 5ft then full withdraw so as not to provoke form 2 squares as opposed to 1.

EDIT: If you take a 5ft step on your turn, you cannot move in any capacity further.

For reference from PRD Combat

PRD Combat wrote:


Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.

You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.


Ya, he considered move actions "moving.". If there are any comments about the cheat sheet let me know.

Grand Lodge

There are two different kinds of Move Actions: Those that involve movement (which you cant do a 5ft step in the same turn as one of these), and those that dont (which you CAN do a 5ft step in the same turn).

If you spend your Move Action doing an action that doesnt require movement between squares on the grid, then you can also take a 5ft step as a non-action.

I dont know the page in the Core, but this link may be of help. It shwos on the chart that a 5ft step is a non-action. If you read shortly below the chart under 'Move action', it should give you all the info you need.

Hope that helps! :)

Edit: Ninja'ed by Zach by about an hour. That's what I get for skimming posts. :P


As for the cheat sheet, it should be noted that an immediate action takes up your swift action for the next turn or current turn. (See below, emphasis mine)

Paizo PRD wrote:

Immediate Actions

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Zain60 wrote:

Recently had a rules disagreement with a PFS scenario GM about whether a witch could five foot step, cackle, and use a standard action. His ruling was that another move action would be 'moving twice' and therefore too powerful. I started to think a one-page cheat sheet would be useful so I made a prototype to carry to games. You can find it Here.

If there are any edits/adds please contact me here. I'd like to make it a useful product for PFS players where round economy is often paramount and takes a long time if players don't understand the actions allowed or a GM is unsure what provokes, etc.

Thanks!

R/
Zain60

One page rules cheat sheets are great for DMs but questionable for players as the base assumption in their creation is that they are going to be used to confront a DM. Rather than have a cheat sheet that might end up getting shoved in a DMs face, it is better for players to simply keep a reference of relevant rules locations in the books that they can use to guide the DM to.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

trollbill wrote:
One page rules cheat sheets are ... questionable for players as the base assumption in their creation is that they are going to be used to confront a DM.

Sort of like the recent discussion about whether a pre-game GM speech can reasonably be considered off-putting to players? I wonder to what degree the sets of "GMs who do/don't give a pre-game speech" and "GMs who are/are not put on edge by this type of document" synch up with each other...

Grand Lodge

Jiggy wrote:
trollbill wrote:
One page rules cheat sheets are ... questionable for players as the base assumption in their creation is that they are going to be used to confront a DM.
Sort of like the recent discussion about whether a pre-game GM speech can reasonably be considered off-putting to players? I wonder to what degree the sets of "GMs who do/don't give a pre-game speech" and "GMs who are/are not put on edge by this type of document" synch up with each other...

I think the answer in both cases is YMMV. It's goign to depend on what is said, the attitude of the GM, and the attitude of the players.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I represent actions in combat like this:
-
-
-
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In one normal round you may take one of the following combinations of actions:
|---Standard Action---|-------Move your speed-------|-I or S-|-F-|
|---Standard Action---|----Move Action-----|-5' step-|-I or S-|-F-|
|-----Move Action------|----Move Action-----|-5' step-|-I or S-|-F-|
|----------------------------Run------------------------------|-I or S-|-F-|
|--------------------------Charge---------------------------|-I or S-|-F-|
|------------------------Withdraw--------------------------|-I or S-|-F-|
|----Move 5 Feet through really difficult terrain------|-I or S-|-F-|
|-------------------Full Attack-------------------|-5' step-|-I or S-|-F-|
|-----------Other Full Round Actions---------|-5' step-|-I or S-|-F-|
|-----Cast a 1 round casting time spell----|-5' step-|-I or S-|-F-|

|-I or S-|-F-| = A character may take an immediate action or swift action each round and free actions.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Jiggy wrote:
trollbill wrote:
One page rules cheat sheets are ... questionable for players as the base assumption in their creation is that they are going to be used to confront a DM.

Exactly. Both are based on a negative assumption about the people you are going to sit down at the table with and can create a negative atmosphere at the table.

Grand Lodge

Seth Gipson wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
trollbill wrote:
One page rules cheat sheets are ... questionable for players as the base assumption in their creation is that they are going to be used to confront a DM.
Sort of like the recent discussion about whether a pre-game GM speech can reasonably be considered off-putting to players? I wonder to what degree the sets of "GMs who do/don't give a pre-game speech" and "GMs who are/are not put on edge by this type of document" synch up with each other...
I think the answer in both cases is YMMV. It's goign to depend on what is said, the attitude of the GM, and the attitude of the players.

Well that is always going to be the case but I still think it is worth mentioning. The likelihood of either action causing problems decreases greatly simply from people realizing it can cause problems and thinking before acting.

Liberty's Edge

I like to sit down as either a player or gm with no preconceived notions of someone else being a douche.


trollbill wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
trollbill wrote:
One page rules cheat sheets are ... questionable for players as the base assumption in their creation is that they are going to be used to confront a DM.
Exactly. Both are based on a negative assumption about the people you are going to sit down at the table with and can create a negative atmosphere at the table.

I'm an experienced player and DM. I made this for myself to make sure I keep myself straight. I cannot account for the behavior of others, but one thing I will say is this: I will not let a DM blatantly change the rules and decrease the efficacy of my character in a scenario because he has a distaste for powerful characters or a misunderstanding of the rules. Some scenarios can end badly for ineffective groups and I don't want to be further penalized. PFS is not a homebrew game, and beyond some minor rules quabbles that the DM has authority to rule over, rules are simply rules. It's not a bad thing for players to keep their DM honest.

If you fear a sheet that is a carbon copy of the rules in the book being used as a banner of confrontation, that's player by player. Any rules lawyer doesn't need this sheet to do it.


Steve Miller wrote:

I represent actions in combat like this:

-
-
-
-
In one normal round you may take one of the following combinations of actions:
|---Standard Action---|-------Move your speed-------|-I or S-|-F-|
|---Standard Action---|----Move Action-----|-5' step-|-I or S-|-F-|
|-----Move Action------|----Move Action-----|-5' step-|-I or S-|-F-|
|----------------------------Run------------------------------|-I or S-|-F-|
|--------------------------Charge---------------------------|-I or S-|-F-|
|------------------------Withdraw--------------------------|-I or S-|-F-|
|----Move 5 Feet through really difficult terrain------|-I or S-|-F-|
|-------------------Full Attack-------------------|-5' step-|-I or S-|-F-|
|-----------Other Full Round Actions---------|-5' step-|-I or S-|-F-|
|-----Cast a 1 round casting time spell----|-5' step-|-I or S-|-F-|

|-I or S-|-F-| = A character may take an immediate action or swift action each round and free actions.

Nicely done!


Andrew Roberts wrote:
As for the cheat sheet, it should be noted that an immediate action takes up your swift action for the next turn or current turn. (See below, emphasis mine)

Excellent input, thank you!

Shadow Lodge

Zain60 wrote:
Ya, he considered move actions "moving.".

In such an instance, I would recommend asking them this: if you cannot perform a five-foot step in the same turn as ANY move action, why is a five-foot step NOT a move action? Surely considering it a move action with a special exception allowing you to use it in the middle of other actions is a simpler way of arriving at that conclusion, and is far less likely to cause confusion.

Grand Lodge

Zain60 wrote:
I'm an experienced player and DM. I made this for myself to make sure I keep myself straight.

And there is nothing wrong with that. But your original post implied it was to be used for correcting GMs on the rules, and I was simply pointing out that there are better ways of doing it (especially when such a document is in no way a PFS binding legal document).

Quote:
I cannot account for the behavior of others, but one thing I will say is this: I will not let a DM blatantly change the rules and decrease the efficacy of my character in a scenario because he has a distaste for powerful characters or a misunderstanding of the rules. Some scenarios can end badly for ineffective groups and I don't want to be further penalized. PFS is not a homebrew game, and beyond some minor rules quabbles that the DM has authority to rule over, rules are simply rules. It's not a bad thing for players to keep their DM honest.

And again, there is nothing wrong with that. I only questioned your apparent methodology in correcting GMs.

Quote:

If you fear a sheet that is a carbon copy of the rules in the book being used as a banner of confrontation, that's player by player. Any rules lawyer doesn't need this sheet to do it.

There are good ways and bad ways of pointing out rule errors. Walking in with a sheet of paper designed to be used specifically for that purpose, as was originally implied, is asking for a fight.


trollbill wrote:
There are good ways and bad ways of pointing out rule errors. Walking in with a sheet of paper designed to be used specifically for that purpose, as was originally implied, is asking for a fight.

This post, again, is not about what you think it is. I simply think helping out fellow players and DMs with the little helping aids I produce is a good thing. If you wish to not use it, or dislike people who use working aids, it doesn't affect me, but please let's not continue to de-rail the subject, though. I'm sure we can start a brand new conversation on the merit of working aids or the douchery of the lowest common denominator player.

There have been some excellent input so far on how to portray actions in combat, that I will definitely be taking on board. If anyone has any more suggestions for input, please pass them along!

Grand Lodge

Zain60 wrote:
trollbill wrote:
There are good ways and bad ways of pointing out rule errors. Walking in with a sheet of paper designed to be used specifically for that purpose, as was originally implied, is asking for a fight.

This post, again, is not about what you think it is. I simply think helping out fellow players and DMs with the little helping aids I produce is a good thing. If you wish to not use it, or dislike people who use working aids, it doesn't affect me, but please let's not continue to de-rail the subject, though. I'm sure we can start a brand new conversation on the merit of working aids or the douchery of the lowest common denominator player.

There have been some excellent input so far on how to portray actions in combat, that I will definitely be taking on board. If anyone has any more suggestions for input, please pass them along!

Fair enough.

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