Goblinworks Blog: The Map


Pathfinder Online

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CEO, Goblinworks

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This is the discussion about our new DevBlog: The Map


Wow. I glance over at this subforum for one moment...

Goblin Squad Member

Ooohohohoho! THIS is exciting! I love what GW is doing with this!

Goblin Squad Member

Very cool..... Those meteor strike hexes and the attempt to secure them will be a huge source of conflict, wealth and power.

Is there any chance that they will depleat over time and new ones will be created elsewhere?

Goblin Squad Member

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I can see that I have some rework to do for my unofficial maps. This should be fun.

I really appreciate the designation of badlands and meteor hexes as non-claimable by players. This means that if a nation wants to "{control" a badlands or meteor hex, they will have to build settlements all around that resource and claim the land them it with PoI's in order to do so. That is doable, but a tough task to accomplish. Other settlements and nations will be on the lookout for that tactic and it could be grounds for war.

Goblin Squad Member

Very interesting. I'm curious to see how the Land Grab plays out now.

Goblin Squad Member

Skymetal... gosh.

Goblin Squad Member

I assume from the narration about "all the roads are free" that the triangled NPC patrolled hexes (i.e., roads) un-claimable by players.

Goblin Squad Member

If I caught it all, that brings up to 4 types of hexes that are unclaimable? Monster, Home, Badlands, and Meteor?

Edit to add: right + NPC hexes, including roads.

Goblin Squad Member

Is the white X on the road west from Thornkeep the pass that allows you into the hills north of the road?

Goblin Squad Member

So there are 29 Land-Rush Settlement opportunities.

Goblin Squad Member

There appear to be "passes" or access to elevation changes from plains to forest. Is this true?

Goblin Squad Member

Harad Navar wrote:
Is the white X on the road west from Thornkeep the pass that allows you into the hills north of the road?

It looks like there should be another couple passes on the map to the north, maybe where the road leading north enters and exits the hills. Or that entire road section might be in a valley with hill resources.

(Edit to add: there's a road hex without the triangle - I'll bet it's supposed to have an X.)

The pass on the road west of Thornkeep looks like its one of two passes that lead into the W-AA hill mass.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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You say that you've abandoned song titles, but I know better. Don't worry, I won't judge you for your taste in music.

Goblin Squad Member

I have just noticed, where is the west of the map? You know with the imodeae settlement and the river.

Goblin Squad Member

What I want to know is how quickly we will be able to build our own roads from the more off the beaten path back to more "civilized" lands and if we will be able to build those roads in all hex types or just certain types? Makes for transport of those skymetal resources hard to get back to market if you're in no mans land.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Linked map for easier reference.

Goblin Squad Member

Why does Lee keep saying "meters" and "kilometers"?

Distances in the Pathfinder RPG and campaign setting are in feet and miles. The developers would have to make a very compelling case to us to allow that to change for Pathfinder Online.

I'm somewhat saddened if that's the official terminology.

Goblin Squad Member

The map looks very interesting and larger, with plenty more playability than I had foreseen. Thanks guys.

From the fraps, I would not be too worried about the game's graphics. A little more variance thrown in and it will be plenty beautiful to keep us enthralled. Only the most demanding will complain and they are overly spoiled at this point, so keep it up. Looking better all the time! Well done.

I am a very happy prospective (well okay, I am a "pre sold" diehard). :)

Goblin Squad Member

One thing I'd like to quip about: forests need much more trees, please. :)

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Harad Navar wrote:
I assume from the narration about "all the roads are free" that the triangled NPC patrolled hexes (i.e., roads) un-claimable by players.

Yep. NPC hexes cannot be claimed by players.

Quote:
Is the white X on the road west from Thornkeep the pass that allows you into the hills north of the road?

As Urman noted, I think that there's an X missing on the road 3 or so hexes to the NW, which is how you get up on those hills.

Gayel Nord wrote:
I have just noticed, where is the west of the map? You know with the imodeae settlement and the river.

It's not on the land rush map (but it is on the internal maps, we'll just get to it a little later).

T7V Wexel Daventry wrote:
What I want to know is how quickly we will be able to build our own roads from the more off the beaten path back to more "civilized" lands and if we will be able to build those roads in all hex types or just certain types? Makes for transport of those skymetal resources hard to get back to market if you're in no mans land.

NPC hexes should start with nice roads, but all the hexes have essentially basic trails on them that connect to the surrounding hexes. The plan is that you can upgrade them to real roads between hexes you own and possibly with ones you're allied with. The tech on that is in its early stages, so the specifics may wind up changing somewhat.

Nihimon wrote:

Why does Lee keep saying "meters" and "kilometers"?

Distances in the Pathfinder RPG and campaign setting are in feet and miles. The developers would have to make a very compelling case to us to allow that to change for Pathfinder Online.
I'm somewhat saddened if that's the official terminology.

Modern game building tools tend to use the metric system, and even American devs find it easier to figure out how to convert between orders of magnitude for, say, figuring out how many 8 meter boxes will fit in a 1 km line. So internally, we use metric for describing things. And I don't know how many of us saw that post and knew that people felt strongly about it.

At the design meeting tomorrow, I'll try to see if anyone wants to fight Vic about post-converting to feet, yards, and miles when we display distances to things in the client. But even if we do, you'll now know what measurement system the server is really using ;) .

I'm not sure how often we'll need to give you exact distances to specific waypoints, since we're not really doing a lot of traditional MMO "go exactly here to click this one specific thing." When describing things to other players, you'll probably just tell people the number of hexes you have to cross and not even be bothered with exactly how far it is in your measurement system of choice. Also, if you get an XYZ coordinate and compare it to another one, the delta of the two will probably be metric, no matter whether we show you a waypoint in feet, yards, or miles.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
Also, if you get an XYZ coordinate and compare it to another one, the delta of the two will probably be metric, no matter whether we show you a waypoint in feet, yards, or miles.

Nods. Surveying in the US uses decimal feet just fine.

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Urman wrote:
Stephen Cheney wrote:
Also, if you get an XYZ coordinate and compare it to another one, the delta of the two will probably be metric, no matter whether we show you a waypoint in feet, yards, or miles.
Nods. Surveying in the US uses decimal feet just fine.

Just saying, the coordinates are likely to be in metric. If you go from X:100 Y:0 Z:100 to X:100 Y:0 Z:200, you've traveled a hundred meters (I'm almost positive our coordinates are in meters and not in centimeters ;) ), even if your waypoint said you went 109 yards.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Urman wrote:
Stephen Cheney wrote:
Also, if you get an XYZ coordinate and compare it to another one, the delta of the two will probably be metric, no matter whether we show you a waypoint in feet, yards, or miles.
Nods. Surveying in the US uses decimal feet just fine.

To the point that I once had to learn how to convert from decimal feet to eighths of an inch in my head. I'd much, much rather convert from decimal meters to millimeters.

I wouldn't have a problem with rounding a meter to 3 feet for conversion purposes. I doubt that less than a 10% distortion would even be detectable considering the artistic scale conventions involved.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

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I say keep the metric. This is supposed to be a single-server (or shard) game, and most of the world uses metric. We 'Muricans can use the practice. Besides, if you were to try emulating medieval measurement systems, every settlement should have its own.

On the XYZ coordinates, which one is elevation? I've generally seen X and Y used for the surface coordinates and Z for elevation, but in Minecraft Y is elevation. Is that conventional in 3D-modelling tools or something?
Of course, if you build the map assuming that everyone is grounded, there's no possibility of magical or mounted flight ever being added, and elevation is irrelevant. Without any possibility of flight or even climbing, the map would play as if it's absolutely flat with those big X chokepoints as the equivalent of holes in otherwise-impenetrable walls.

Speaking of walls, how will the edges of the map be handled? I'm more in favour of invisible or translucent barriers rather than a box of bizarre cliffs all around.

Will the mountains you've dropped into the forests be reflected in any new PFRPG materials, or are we in some alternate-dimension Golarion without continuity? Maybe we're in a demiplane copy of the RK, and that's why Pharasma is doing weird things here. :P

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

Why does Lee keep saying "meters" and "kilometers"?

Distances in the Pathfinder RPG and campaign setting are in feet and miles. The developers would have to make a very compelling case to us to allow that to change for Pathfinder Online.
I'm somewhat saddened if that's the official terminology.

Even the Pathfinder RPG is not complying with High Fantasy. Base distance terms would be Pace and League. I am not going to worry about what terms the game bothers with if GoblinWorks is going to have a PC view-able coordinate system. I would like to see directions given as "Take the South road until you reach the lightning struck tree, and then head East."

On a different note, I am disappointed that no mention of Alpha's release was made. The last information I saw was late April, and there are only 14 days left. Any info would of been nice, even a "Progress towards Alpha is proceeding as planned". I am of two thoughts on a notification with "Alpha released", being able to plan not being at work for the release is my preference. Checking the blogs a few hours after release for all the player discoveries will be a full time activity.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Keovar wrote:


On the XYZ coordinates, which one is elevation? I've generally seen X and Y used for the surface coordinates and Z for elevation, but in Minecraft Y is elevation. Is that conventional in 3D-modelling tools or something?
Of course, if you build the map assuming that everyone is grounded, there's no possibility of magical or mounted flight ever being added, and elevation is irrelevant. Without any possibility of flight or even climbing, the map would play as if it's absolutely flat with those big X chokepoints as the equivalent of holes in otherwise-impenetrable walls.

Could use the North East Down (NED) system. Numbers would look weird depending on what reference they made 0.0.0


I don't see the problem with using metric.
Some international translations of Pathfinder tabletop rules do use metric units.
In an international game it is more useful for the broadest audience, with everybody needing to communicate.
Meter is more or less understood by Americans as equivalent to yard, which is fine,
Km vs. mile is more iffy, but unless "miles" are going to be commonly referenced units, it doesn't matter.
And besides, metric uses Latinate terminology, and Golarion's "Common" (Chelaxo-Taldane) is seemingly a Latin analog culture.

Realistically, I think using "hexes" as "player visible" units of distance would be more useful to players,
so useful that I imagine players would tend to end up using that terminology even if it wasn't officially blessed/displayed on-screen.

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I was confused about the white X "entrance" hexes as well, so those also apply to the 'forested hill' hexes?
Does that mean that the terrain borders outside those X hexes will be something like unpassable cliffs?
Would those be passable in the reverse direction, i.e. DOWN? And I suppose alternate means of travel,
like special climbing abilities or flying might in the future also be able to pass terrain borders, regardless of "entrance" status or not?

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

With regards to the size of the hexes, were Lee's numbers side to opposite side or corner to opposite corner? I would assume side to side based on context, but want to make sure as it's a ~15% difference.

Goblin Squad Member

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A good update in terms of understanding the size of our EE world, thanks GW.

The range of terrain (even if it looks sparse for the MVP) is oozing with opportunity.

The tactics and strategy of the Great PFO Land Rush are going to be interesting (as others have mentioned.) The placement of the "open" settlement hexes will be a matter of thorough debate and I look forward to hearing how chartered companies, guilds and the like will be monopolising perceived hotspots (for resources and conflict.)

Good luck to all you Alpha peeps and keep us as informed as you are allowed... EE seems so tantalisingly close, yet cannot come soon enough ;-P

Goblin Squad Member

Harad Navar wrote:
There appear to be "passes" or access to elevation changes from plains to forest. Is this true?

I was wondering about this also and the logic behind it.

Goblin Squad Member

I think this might be one of the most eye-popping blogs yet: Very visual and very engaging.

Some of the points that stuck out for me:

> Different POI's
> Choke points on mountains is really interesting diversity; assume these also create blocks to passage around these regions, again quite interesting?! So no "as the crow flies" around these then. Similarly with bodies of water? Good to see one was indicated. I did not see rivers however? How does water work: Drinking/resource/barrier?
> NPC hexes network could turn out to be a popular feature (like a beach with shark nets!)
> more terrain types eg Swamp makes for an exciting world.
> Hexes with a nod to the future content is a great idea to vary things up as content possibilities change/increase and/or hybridize sandbox (80%) and themepark (20%).

Great and clear presentation Lee! Thanks.

This certainly spices up the decision-making for "Land Rush!!"

However as major questions are answered, many smaller questions move in: Do you choose a hex near the center (more connected?) or near the border (nearer expansion to new lands?

I know you devs are hiding a blog on crafting materials now (and which hexs they're in and what they contribute towards)...

Goblin Squad Member

Land Rush: if the meteor strike hexes are fixed (don't move), then the prime location for land rush settlements will be as close to these fixed sites as possible.

Meteor Strike Fixed Locations: Much of the conflict will be in and around these fixed sites. If the focus of the players' attentions are on fixed locations, won't that make the world seem smaller?

On the other hand, for those not interested in focusing in on the dominance portion of the game (including high tier crafting), they might be able to settle far away for these fixed hexes and remain in relative solitude.

It will be interesting to see if these meteor hexes become conflict funnels, as designed?

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah, agreed. Going to be some interesting decisions trying to find the best settlement hex close to both a meteor hex and a mountain hex. Also some interesting conflict arising when others decide they want that hex :)

Goblin Squad Member

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Not going with questions this week was the right decision, I am really happy that you showed us the map! Looking forward to exploring it in person.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
Modern game building tools tend to use the metric system...

I understand the reasoning, but to be honest I'd be happier with hexadecimal "units" with undefined real-world conversions. As a student of history, I find certain anachronisms jarringly immersion-breaking. Seeing an "orrery"* in ArcticMUD was one of the first and most memorable occasions. It would be kind of like a game that described certain features of magical swords as "apps".

Stephen Cheney wrote:
And I don't know how many of us saw that post and knew that people felt strongly about it.

That's probably a stretch :) I think I'm one of the very few who feel "strongly" about it, and probably most of the others who feel strongly about it disagree with me. At any rate, I'll get along just fine if everything's in Metric.

* An "orrery" is a clockwork solar-system model named after the Earl of Orrery. And yes, I know a "sandwich" is named after the Earl of Sandwich, and no, it wouldn't be jarring to me. I'm an odd egg, and I know it :)

Goblin Squad Member

a written legend will be helpful to read the map.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:

Land Rush: if the meteor strike hexes are fixed (don't move), then the prime location for land rush settlements will be as close to these fixed sites as possible.

Meteor Strike Fixed Locations: Much of the conflict will be in and around these fixed sites. If the focus of the players' attentions are on fixed locations, won't that make the world seem smaller?

On the other hand, for those not interested in focusing in on the dominance portion of the game (including high tier crafting), they might be able to settle far away for these fixed hexes and remain in relative solitude.

It will be interesting to see if these meteor hexes become conflict funnels, as designed?

Good point. Fixed meteor hexes seem to create a fixed political landscape which could make things a bit predictable maybe. But changing around these hexes at certain points hardly seems fair to those settlements that have worked hard to get established there and defended them. So i think they will not go that way.

We must not forget that the world will grow biger and bigger, and more meteor hexes will make its way into the world. Or other types of profitable hexes. The growing of this single server world will cause flux in the political landscape anyway. Also, the economy will come into play: at some point, porkbellies may fetch a higher price then skymetal! Well, maybe not.

Goblin Squad Member

Tyncale wrote:
at some point, porkbellies may fetch a higher price then skymetal! Well, maybe not.

*Laughs for the 2nd time in quick succession*.

Some more explanation on the meteor strikes would be interesting.

Goblin Squad Member

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I'm confused about the Passes / Choke Points (marked with a big white X) on the map. There are too many transitions for every transition to be impassable unless an X is present. It might make it easier to understand if the X were situated on the border that's actually passable, or if impassable borders were bolded.

Goblin Squad Member

Agreed double thick black lines or single thickness yellow lines would make the map a little more clear where impassablity is concerned.

Other thoughts,

metric system, please and thank you.

Also corcerning skymetal locals, my first thought is that they should remain fixed. The amount of planning and growing a settlement will have to do to capitalize on exploting these should be rewarded IMO.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
I'm confused about the Passes / Choke Points (marked with a big white X) on the map. There are too many transitions for every transition to be impassable unless an X is present. It might make it easier to understand if the X were situated on the border that's actually passable, or if impassable borders were bolded.

I agree for the "X" that are placed in forest hexes or the one on the far western area that us in the hilly plains. Can a forest be so dense that it is impassable?

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
I'm confused about the Passes / Choke Points (marked with a big white X) on the map. There are too many transitions for every transition to be impassable unless an X is present. It might make it easier to understand if the X were situated on the border that's actually passable, or if impassable borders were bolded.
I agree for the "X" that are placed in forest hexes or the one on the far western area that us in the hilly plains. Can a forest be so dense that it is impassable?

This confused me, so trying to puzzle it out, what seems to be the case:

1. As Lee said before about sometimes adding a different hex to mix a type of hex terrain type up eg a few ligh-green and beige in the forest hexes.

2. My guess, I suppose the random "X" 's that are NOT hill-forest (surrounding mountain type hexes) type hexes are indicating an elevation change or scree/formation in that hex requiring a choke point?

If so then they would surely be dark green? So maybe that guess is incorrect too?

Might need the devs to clarify those "X" 's.

Goblin Squad Member

Now this was a substantial blog! It really improves our understanding of the world and gives us settlement-minded companies something to discuss as a group again!

Goblin Squad Member

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Lifedragn wrote:
Now this was a substantial blog! It really improves our understanding of the world and gives us settlement-minded companies something to discuss as a group again!

Indeed. We've already started a discussion on T7V's forums about attractive Land Rush spots, and will be meeting on Team Speak tonight to talk it over in preparation for getting together with TEO to discuss our plans, and how we might best complement each other. I remain hopefully optimistic that we'll actually get a Settlement in the Land Rush :)

Goblin Squad Member

I fully support the metric system, mainly because it's much easier to convert between scales (short distance to long distance).

In the case of PFO, I guess it isn't really relevant: either you need short scale measurements for ranged actions, or you need long scale measurements for travel.
In the first case I suppose your pointer or whatever will tell you if you're close enough to shoot, and in the second case it's more about how long it takes to get from one place to another, and the game mechanics will impose your speed of movement regardless of unit.

About hex size, I don't really understand when Lee implies that a map 9x13km is really big, and that hexes 500m accross are huge (viewed from a PC standpoint): I know that travelling through rough terrain can be very slow, but let's say a character runs on the east-west road in light cloth for fun, he should be able to do it 1 hour, and a marathon-grade PC (with no chemical or magical speed enhancement :-)) should do it in 30' or less. That's short, since he'd be crossing an hex border every 2 or 3 minutes.

Is that correct ? Or am I misunderstanding this assumption that thoses 500m hexes are *big* ?

Seeya,
Moonbird

Goblin Squad Member

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re: metric: pardon my French, but it is about time we Americans came to terms with sensible metric units. Why is a Democracy obsessed with the length of an ancient king's appendage anyway?

Goblin Squad Member

That raises a question: I wonder if hex type changes/influences movement speed?

@Nihimon, I'm sure you've noted Lee mentioning in the blog having a settlement on an ecological/geographical edge conveys obviously access to different resources albeit less of one type than fully surrounded and possibly more coveted by more players.

On another topic, this Game of Thrones interactive map seems like an interesting way to present the history of PFO one day, in a similar presentation method with sliding time-scale for recording links to wiki.

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Pax Keovar wrote:
On the XYZ coordinates, which one is elevation? I've generally seen X and Y used for the surface coordinates and Z for elevation, but in Minecraft Y is elevation. Is that conventional in 3D-modelling tools or something?

X is East/West, Y is Up/Down, and Z is North/South. X is pretty consistently E/W and Y and Z tend to vary from tool to tool; on my last project Z was the vertical axis, but Unity uses Y.

Quote:
Speaking of walls, how will the edges of the map be handled? I'm more in favour of invisible or translucent barriers rather than a box of bizarre cliffs all around.

Translucent wall around a hex you can't get into because it's not online/doesn't really exist yet. You see the terrain past it and it's not obvious until you're right on top of it.

Quote:
Will the mountains you've dropped into the forests be reflected in any new PFRPG materials, or are we in some alternate-dimension Golarion without continuity? Maybe we're in a demiplane copy of the RK, and that's why Pharasma is doing weird things here. :P

Dunno. Might be a good Q&A question for Mike Hines to talk about the interaction between Paizo and the art department ;) .

Quandary wrote:

I was confused about the white X "entrance" hexes as well, so those also apply to the 'forested hill' hexes?

Does that mean that the terrain borders outside those X hexes will be something like unpassable cliffs?
Would those be passable in the reverse direction, i.e. DOWN? And I suppose alternate means of travel,
like special climbing abilities or flying might in the future also be able to pass terrain borders, regardless of "entrance" status or not?

As an example, one of the Xs that's on a hill hex means that there are passes rising up from the surrounding Hexes into the hill hex; all the surrounding hexes are relatively flat, and the hex with the X has all the elevation changes within its borders. If an X was on a lower hex, I'd imagine it would essentially have a big ramp/hill spur on the side with the higher hex, so all the changes would be within the lower hex.

Lee says there's some elevation change even between plains and regular forests, hence the Xs between those.

There aren't any invisible walls between active hexes, just the drastic height change, so there is, indeed, a chance that later there may be alternate ways to get up a hill without using a choke point. Settlements with their backs against a mountain may feel safe... until their enemies Feather Fall upon them with a great vengeance!

Nightdrifter wrote:
With regards to the size of the hexes, were Lee's numbers side to opposite side or corner to opposite corner? I would assume side to side based on context, but want to make sure as it's a ~15% difference.

Lee was quoting from memory. We checked with Mike this morning and they're essentially 2km for every three hexes in a line (flat side to flat side). That means it's around 680m flat to flat and 780m point to point. So they're actually even bigger than suggested in the video; there's a lot of space to run around in.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:

As an example, one of the Xs that's on a hill hex means that there are passes rising up from the surrounding Hexes into the hill hex; all the surrounding hexes are relatively flat, and the hex with the X has all the elevation changes within its borders. If an X was on a lower hex, I'd imagine it would essentially have a big ramp/hill spur on the side with the higher hex, so all the changes would be within the lower hex.

Lee says there's some elevation change even between plains and regular forests, hence the Xs between those.

It's still not clear.

There's an X southeast of P. Does that mean P cannot enter the Forest through either of the Forest Hexes it borders? Is the X west of K really the only way into all of the contiguous Hills in the northwest part off the map?

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